The Democrats - the natural born liars!

[Pique]

"It depends on what your definition of IS is" - Bill Clinton

"I was under sniper fire..." - Hillary Clinton

"My uncle was one of the first to liberate Auschwitz" - Barack Obama (his dad is Kenyan, and his American mother had no brother, and for that matter... the Russians liberated Auschwitz, not the Americans)

"My mom used to sing Look For The Union Label to me as a child" - Al Gore (who was in his 20's when that song was written"

(on $2.00 gas prices) "This is outrageous. I have a plan to lower gas prices." - Nancy Pelosi (2006).

Enough said and since when where Russian's black? Oh Barack, John McCain (my man McCain) is gonna knock seven shades of crap out of you, son!

[RM/MO]

"It depends on what your definition of IS is" - Bill Clinton

"I was under sniper fire..." - Hillary Clinton

"My uncle was one of the first to liberate Auschwitz" - Barack Obama (his dad is Kenyan, and his American mother had no brother, and for that matter... the Russians liberated Auschwitz, not the Americans)

"My mom used to sing Look For The Union Label to me as a child" - Al Gore (who was in his 20's when that song was written"

(on $2.00 gas prices) "This is outrageous. I have a plan to lower gas prices." - Nancy Pelosi (2006).

Enough said and since when where Russian's black? Oh Barack, John McCain (my man McCain) is gonna knock seven shades of crap out of you, son!

I find it ironic that a Republican is chastising the Democrats over little white lies. How about Compassionate Conservatism or Weapons of Mass Destruction? I suppose these little indiscretions are nothing in comparison to the mistakes listed above (Obama's uncle did serve, in liberating Buchenwald, actually.)

[DougieG]

"It depends on what your definition of IS is" - Bill Clinton

"I was under sniper fire..." - Hillary Clinton

"My uncle was one of the first to liberate Auschwitz" - Barack Obama (his dad is Kenyan, and his American mother had no brother, and for that matter... the Russians liberated Auschwitz, not the Americans)

"My mom used to sing Look For The Union Label to me as a child" - Al Gore (who was in his 20's when that song was written"

(on $2.00 gas prices) "This is outrageous. I have a plan to lower gas prices." - Nancy Pelosi (2006).

Enough said and since when where Russian's black? Oh Barack, John McCain (my man McCain) is gonna knock seven shades of crap out of you, son!

What point are you trying to make? All politicians lie- Republicans more so than Democrats, as pointed out by RM/MO. 'Weapons of Mass Destruction' (Bush can't pronounce 'nuclear') in Iraq is an obvious one- and one that McCain fully supported and defended.

Auschwitz was liberated by both sides. I'll look into whether Obama lied on this or not...

[RM/MO]

What point are you trying to make? All politicians lie- Republicans more so than Democrats, as pointed out by RM/MO. 'Weapons of Mass Destruction' (Bush can't pronounce 'nuclear') in Iraq is an obvious one- and one that McCain fully supported and defended.

Auschwitz was liberated by both sides. I'll look into whether Obama lied on this or not...

Absolutely, most of the things that Pique mentions are minor and innocuous - Obama mistook which Concentration camp his uncle invaded (easy to do and it shouldn't detract from him being a hero liberating a different and equally horrific extermination camp); Al Gore didn't even lie; he said that his mother used to sing 'Look for the Union Label' as a joke to a union crowd who laughed appreciatively.

Republicans have really got to dig deep below the barrel to try to divert people from the fact that if you want a government that personifies deception and moral turpitude, look no further than those that Lincoln would be spinning in his grave to think of sharing a party with.

[Spades]

What point are you trying to make? All politicians lie- Republicans more so than Democrats, as pointed out by RM/MO. 'Weapons of Mass Destruction' (Bush can't pronounce 'nuclear') in Iraq is an obvious one- and one that McCain fully supported and defended.

Auschwitz was liberated by both sides. I'll look into whether Obama lied on this or not...

Wow, the fact that you say these are small things but cling to the fact that Bush can't pronounce Nuclear is astounding. I mean honestly. People cannot pronounce certain words for some strange reason. Its not really anything to be to point a finger at. However, Hilary and her sniper fire incident. Or one of Baracks various lies. Please. Democrats lie more, and they don't even own up to it.

Bill Clinton- Monica Lewinsky Scandal, and didn't own up to it until the FBI said we are going to get a DNA test of these pants.

Hilary Clinton - Sniper fire Incident for one

Barack Obama various lies, to many to count.

The fact of the matter is the media is not fair, balanced, and I really don't know if you guys know its lies or just believe them yourselves.

[Opinionated74]

Bill Clinton- Monica Lewinsky Scandal, and didn't own up to it until the FBI said we are going to get a DNA test of these pants. .

Oh please! What husband caught with his pants down would freely admit to it? Immoral - absolutely (IMHO), illegal? Well he wasn't actually convicted was he? O, and the last President who resigned before he was? O yea - a Republican!

Hilary Clinton - Sniper fire Incident for one
Yeah that was rather stupid, but did she claim she signed up voluntarily for dangerous duty in Vietnam? Or shall we examine if McCain did or did not write that letter to the FCC?

Barack Obama various lies, to many to count.

See above. you wanna explain Vicki Iseman (after all the investigation of Bill Clinton started due to the written-in-stone rule that there's no smoke without fire!)

The fact of the matter is the media is not fair, balanced, and I really don't know if you guys know its lies or just believe them yourselves


Yes lets talk media bias, how biased is it to put a picture of Barrack Obama up next to a picture of Osama Bin Laden (as Fox News have done on more than one occasion) whilst discussing Obama's campaign. Or the blatant suggestion that that fist bump stupidity was a terrorist greeting. And how many times have you heard the question "is Obama a Muslim?" asked? Or the constant reminder that he inherited his middle name from his Father. Or even (and this just makes me laugh because it's really pathetic), the constant pointing out that Obama sounds a bit like Osama!

Everybody lies, everybody makes the odd dodgy decision (although mine have never commited a Nation to an illegal, unwinable war). All the time we hold our politicians up to a different standard than ourselves we are asking to be lied to!!!
O, and all this "your side lies more than ours" nonsense just detracts from the real issues. Wouldn't it be nice if the Parties didn't campaign to the lowest common denominator and treated the electorate with a bit of respect? Or maybe I'm just a wooly headed idealist (not a Democratic Party affiliated one btw, wrong Nationality and all that...!)

[DougieG]

Opinionated has already iterated most of the points I would have used in my own retort, but:

Wow, the fact that you say these are small things but cling to the fact that Bush can't pronounce Nuclear is astounding. I mean honestly. People cannot pronounce certain words for some strange reason. Its not really anything to be to point a finger at.True, it was meant as a joke/small jibe at Bush. I didn't attempt to add anything to my argument with it.

However, Hilary and her sniper fire incident.I was happy when she did this, as it brought Obama closer to the nomination. See Opinionated's point on it with regards to McCain

Or one of Baracks various lies. Please. Democrats lie more, and they don't even own up to it.And Republicans do own up? I'm not trying to say that politicians don't lie- they all do, because we have the double standard that Opinionated mentioned. I'm just saying that if anything, the Republicans are worse than the Democrats, not the other way around.

Barack Obama various lies, to many to count.Quote me five as a minimum. Not insignificant things, but ones that matter, like McCain claiming he signed up for service enthusiastically.

The fact of the matter is the media is not fair, balanced, and I really don't know if you guys know its lies or just believe them yourselves.Both, probably. You seem to believe most of the Republicans' lies. How are either of us better than the other?

And no, the media is not balanced. Get over it and watch more than one station, and read more than one newspaper. I get the Guardian and the Times in Britain, one slightly left-of-centre, the other slightly right, so that I get a balanced view.

[Spades]

Oh please! What husband caught with his pants down would freely admit to it? Immoral - absolutely (IMHO), illegal? Well he wasn't actually convicted was he? O, and the last President who resigned before he was? O yea - a Republican!
HA, someone commits perjury and cheats on his wife during his term and instead of admitting this was wrong you have the mentality of who else would own up to it? Because you may not own up to it does not detract from the crime (both morally and legally). Do not try to change the focus of this statement onto a republican, admit that It was wrong and then you can move on.


Yeah that was rather stupid, but did she claim she signed up voluntarily for dangerous duty in Vietnam? Or shall
we examine if McCain did or did not write that letter to the FCC?[/QUOTE]

Go ahead and examine it.


Yes lets talk media bias, how biased is it to put a picture of Barrack Obama up next to a picture of Osama Bin Laden (as Fox News have done on more than one occasion) whilst discussing Obama's campaign. Or the blatant suggestion that that fist bump stupidity was a terrorist greeting. And how many times have you heard the question "is Obama a Muslim?" asked? Or the constant reminder that he inherited his middle name from his Father. Or even (and this just makes me laugh because it's really pathetic), the constant pointing out that Obama sounds a bit like Osama!
Yes all media sources are biased, but one thing I do believe is that radio is conservatively biased, and TV news programs are democratically leaning biased. Like how McCain is to old to become president, or how McCain is another Bush.


Everybody lies, everybody makes the odd dodgy decision (although mine have never commited a Nation to an illegal, unwinable war). All the time we hold our politicians up to a different standard than ourselves we are asking to be lied to!!!
O, and all this "your side lies more than ours" nonsense just detracts from the real issues. Wouldn't it be nice if the Parties didn't campaign to the lowest common denominator and treated the electorate with a bit of respect? Or maybe I'm just a wooly headed idealist (not a Democratic Party affiliated one btw, wrong Nationality and all that...!)
I've already debated the legality of this war. But yes the your side lies more than our side does get wearisome.

[Opinionated74]

HA, someone commits perjury and cheats on his wife during his term and instead of admitting this was wrong you have the mentality of who else would own up to it? Because you may not own up to it does not detract from the crime (both morally and legally). Do not try to change the focus of this statement onto a republican, admit that It was wrong and then you can move on.


O.k. then, it was wrong (and if he'd been my husband I would have castrated him in public- with a blunt knife!)... now what about Nixon?
This thread is about whether Democrats are natural born liers and the way I have argued is to try and show that the focus of the statement can be moved onto Republicans just as well.
If we are going to debate whose sin is the greatest then I suppose we should set clear limits as to how far back we go historically. That has the potential to get very very boring (plus my knowledge of the moral integrity of your early presidents is very limited), so instead I will ask you to consider my point again; that by holding our politicians to a standard we cannot possibly live up to ourselves we are asking to be lied to!

[ProudToBe]

I find it ironic that a Republican is chastising the Democrats over little white lies. How about Compassionate Conservatism or Weapons of Mass Destruction? I suppose these little indiscretions are nothing in comparison to the mistakes listed above (Obama's uncle did serve, in liberating Buchenwald, actually.)
And must I say ... no little white lie in my book, as an actual human, forget political lines of any sort, is as conniving and sinister as that of a snarling SARCASTIC Palin in her performance tonight; making it just as clear to me as to any other right minded individual, that in the eyes of the Republican Party winning voters is about simply going back to the old-school techniques in voting the next high school class president; It's not about who can do the most for their class but who can be the cockiest, prissy, and rude. Palin made it very clear to me tonight that since there are no REAL arguments to be made on behalf of the Republican Party, the only way to TRY to get at the Democrats is to downsize by sarcasm and a gun. I have never known an entire group of people to be so hard-headed in not being able to get their facts straight. Obama raising taxes? Were your ears closed to Obama's speech when he said that those who are milking in the money as-is will no longer get their so much appreciated tax breaks and that normal societys would get the cut? No, probably not? Real research? NEVER!!!
When I was 16 and filling up my 1987 Ford Mustangs gas tank for the first time, it only cost me $15! That was only in 2003! Today with a 2004 Honda Civic, it is close to $45 each time! This gas situation has slowly become what it is because of good ol' Bush! Get your good ol' Republican candidates to put away the sarcasm and the un-educated remarks towards the Dems and TELL ME WHAT YOU ARE GOING TO DO TO HELP ME, AND MY POCKETBOOK, AND MY WELL BEING. A citizen of the United States Of America. Save me the time on telling me your own personal agendas and show me how your going to make my agendas, your agendas as well.

[DougieG]

But yes the your side lies more than our side does get wearisome.

What?!
Please rephrase that, it makes zero sense.

[Opinionated74]

What?!
Please rephrase that, it makes zero sense.

It makes sense when you read it in context as reply to my post. To paraphrase on Spades behalf if I may:
Yes..the "your side lies more than my side" line of debate does get wearisome:)

[Spades]

O.k. then, it was wrong (and if he'd been my husband I would have castrated him in public- with a blunt knife!)... now what about Nixon?
This thread is about whether Democrats are natural born liers and the way I have argued is to try and show that the focus of the statement can be moved onto Republicans just as well.
If we are going to debate whose sin is the greatest then I suppose we should set clear limits as to how far back we go historically. That has the potential to get very very boring (plus my knowledge of the moral integrity of your early presidents is very limited), so instead I will ask you to consider my point again; that by holding our politicians to a standard we cannot possibly live up to ourselves we are asking to be lied to!

Yes, Nixon screwed himself over for reason's that are beyond me. Here is a man who was doing a rather decent job and was in no real threat to go and to take part (Im just going to assume he was guilty) was rather stupid and shameful which makes me wonder what he was thinking, if he was thinking at all.

Now we your right we shouldn't debate who's sin is worse. We do hold politicians up to a higher standard than we do ourselves. But Clinton/Nixon crossed that line by far.

[Opinionated74]

Here's my point though - did Clinton cross the line? He was backed into a corner, forced to defend an immoral action, by his political enemies, of course he lied! It's my humble opinion, but I think it's as bad to have wasted all that money and time trying to embarass a man over his marital indescretions, purely out of malice and misplaced party loyalty.
Had Clinton campaigned on "strong family values", then it would have been an hypocrisy legitimately uncovered, although rather than Congressional investigation I should think that would be the job of a free press!
Tell me, my knowledge of Constitutional law is quite limited, does it provide for removal of a President through a vote of no confidence? It just seems to me that perhaps we need to define legally what moral code is relevent for a politician to hold office (must be stoically monogomous, never lie, eat at least three portions of fruit and veg a day!), or we could agree a more sensible litmus test (i.e. say what you believe, do what you say - and the electorate will be able to decide whether they agree or not!). That's the trouble in a plural society though isn't it - what I may consider to be the necessary credentials to trust a leader won't necessarily be the same as yours.
Are Democrats natural born liers? Are we all natural born liers? Well, much psychological research has been done into that and the general concensus is that we do indeed learn to lie early as a sort of protection mechanism. Of course as adults we are supposed to develope a grounded moral code by which we outgrow the instinct to lie. Has any Democratic President or candidate managed that - doubt it! What about Carter though, he seems to be one of those mild mannered quiet politicians who avoided controversy - was he just boring? If so perhaps there-in lies the key, the more boring the politician the more trust-worthy, an end to the cult of charisma. I ask, because beyond the Wikapedia biog I just read I know nothing about him.
I don't think Republicans are born with an instinct not to lie, along with a strong instinct for libertarianism and free-market economics! Do you?

[theAdviserMe]

Lying will always go with politics. And mind you...even in religious institutions...liars are always around. From half-truths...to white lies...to arrogant flat lies...see it all in politics...in showbiz...in religion. For as long as we are still humans, there is no escaping to the lie jargons all around us. Sad to say.

[Luissa27]

Yes, Nixon screwed himself over for reason's that are beyond me. Here is a man who was doing a rather decent job and was in no real threat to go and to take part (Im just going to assume he was guilty) was rather stupid and shameful which makes me wonder what he was thinking, if he was thinking at all.

Now we your right we shouldn't debate who's sin is worse. We do hold politicians up to a higher standard than we do ourselves. But Clinton/Nixon crossed that line by far.
I am a democrat and I agree Nixon was doing an okay job! Watch the movie Nixon! He had to get out and Watergate wasn't even the half of it. A lot of our best presidents were corrupt, for example JFK, Clinton, it just what they do with that power. George W was just to stupid to figure out how make it work for him and come out a winner in the end!

[Spades]

Here's my point though - did Clinton cross the line? He was backed into a corner, forced to defend an immoral action, by his political enemies, of course he lied! It's my humble opinion, but I think it's as bad to have wasted all that money and time trying to embarass a man over his marital indescretions, purely out of malice and misplaced party loyalty.

Well he committed these acts in the Oval Office and by no means is it waste of money to investigate him (embarass). The reason for is because if presidents are allowed to freely commit these sexual acts then they will be sued.... just like President Clinton was. If any regular individual commits a similar act in their workplace would they not promptly be fired if caught?

The fact that others lie does not excuse the presidents conduct nor let him completely off the hook for his actions. I find it bad that instead of stepping down, he decided to selfishly continue his job.


While I've been studying Psychology I am by no means proficient or knowledgeable in the field. So I can take it that you are at least into Social Psychology? Anyways, you would say that is the general consesus? Because I would think a conclusion like that would be in need of more research. Is lying a genetic trait could be a possible explanation.

There is no vote of no confidence in America. He much be impeached (Think of it like an indictment) by the House then he goes before the Senate to be tried.

[Opinionated74]

If any regular individual commits a similar act in their workplace would they not promptly be fired if caught?

Not in the U.K., unless it was a criminal act. They would of course open the company up to allegations of sexual harassment, but the "victim" would need to show that the "perpetrator" abused his/her postion of power. I think Lewinski admitted that while she was naive and in retrospect feels used, she was a consenting adult (as was the President).

I find it bad that instead of stepping down, he decided to selfishly continue his job.

Yes, because that's the personal moral standard you have set, my point was that is unrealistic IMO, that's all! Plus, he was elected to perform that job, why was it selfish? Because a man's not capable of doing two things at once? Mind on Monica not domestic policy?

So I can take it that you are at least into Social Psychology? Anyways, you would say that is the general consesus? Because I would think a conclusion like that would be in need of more research. Is lying a genetic trait could be a possible explanation.

I'm not sure it makes my opinions any more or less valid, but if you're just curious I have a bachelors degree in Sociology, and am preparing to start a Masters degree in Early Years Studies in the next accademic year (hopefully!). For research into a childhood cognitive social developement you could do worse than look at that of Dr. Victoria Talwar of McGill University, Québec or if you're interested in viewing it from a more historical view I'm sure you've looked at James Sully before (particularly in a context of applying evolutionary theories to psychology). Hope that you find it interesting:)

There is no vote of no confidence in America. He much be impeached (Think of it like an indictment) by the House then he goes before the Senate to be tried.

Then as long as the House listens to the electorate, I suppose that is a vote of no confidence. I was lead to believe that something like 70% of the American public were against Clinton's impeachment.

We are exactly the same in the U.K., whenever a politician is caught with his pants down it's front page news for weeks, meanwhile Blair/Brown/next same-old same-old happily go about eroding our freedoms and no-one blinks an eyelid! It's just a personal thing but I don't think sexual indescretions are the worst morally dubious thing any of our leaders get up to and while we obsess about that they are all conspiring to ignore the will of the people (so perhaps I should move to Sweden, where they are less repressed!):D

[Loki]

George bush he are the liiar. he lie t o the people o f USA and the world abaout Irak haveing the weapons. this i s really the oil he wants. George bush allso say that the economie is good when banks have to close and people loose there jobs.