Are you racist?

[tanya1177]

I'm not racist at all, but sometimes I'm afraid that nowadays it's hard to find a white female walking down the street in London...

[MarkMuses]

I'm not racist at all, but sometimes I'm afraid that nowadays it's hard to find a white female walking down the street in London...

Reminds me of the Morrissey story that blew up: BBC NEWS | Entertainment | Morrissey to sue NME over story (http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/entertainment/7118412.stm)

[daft fan]

I'm not racist at all, but sometimes I'm afraid that nowadays it's hard to find a white female walking down the street in London...

As this recent BBC poll shows, you are not the only person with those views (click here to see the full poll) (http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/uk/7352125.stm)

Two-thirds of people in Britain fear race relations are so poor tensions are likely to spill over into violence

60% said the UK had too many immigrants and half wanted foreigners encouraged to leave.

Yet the number of people who describe themselves racially prejudiced is down to 20%.

In London, the indigenous British population is now an ethnic minority.
Feeling like a foreigner in your own country is not racist, it's your mind telling you the truth...

Click here to see Nick Griffin's excellent speech on the effect of Enoch Powell. (http://www.bnptv.org.uk/news3.php?go=fullnews&newsid=422)

[GETUPTA SINGH]

Define the term 'racist' for me?

[pauli007001]

Define the term 'racist' for me?

One who has ideations of individuality.
A belief that all are equal
a belief that colour is not a factor
becoming concerned when mere whites complain about other mere whites being murdered by ethnic types,they should understand why,white is evil and must be eradicated(q Tony B Liar)!!!!!!!!

[Thoreau]

One who has ideations of individuality.
A belief that all are equal
a belief that colour is not a factor
becoming concerned when mere whites complain about other mere whites being murdered by ethnic types,they should understand why,white is evil and must be eradicated(q Tony B Liar)!!!!!!!!

Do you ever post anything of relevance to a discussion? I read that and almost fell off my chair with laughter.

rac·ism http://cache.lexico.com/dictionary/graphics/luna/thinsp.png
–noun 1.a belief or doctrine that inherent differences among the various human races determine cultural or individual achievement, usually involving the idea that one's own race is superior and has the right to rule others. 2.a policy, system of government, etc., based upon or fostering such a doctrine; discrimination. 3.hatred or intolerance of another race or other races.

Racism is one of the many misused and misunderstood words. Your thoughts of there being too many non-white people and foreign people residing in London and elsewhere in the United Kingdom is not racist. It is natural to feel this way and in no way, shape or form makes you a racist.

It's the politically correct Ministers of Parliament and the Media who have altered the meaning of racism to niche in with their own agenda.

[pauli007001]

Do you ever post anything of relevance to a discussion? I read that and almost fell off my chair with laughter.

rac·ism http://cache.lexico.com/dictionary/graphics/luna/thinsp.png
–noun 1.a belief or doctrine that inherent differences among the various human races determine cultural or individual achievement, usually involving the idea that one's own race is superior and has the right to rule others. 2.a policy, system of government, etc., based upon or fostering such a doctrine; discrimination. 3.hatred or intolerance of another race or other races.

Racism is one of the many misused and misunderstood words. Your thoughts of there being too many non-white people and foreign people residing in London and elsewhere in the United Kingdom is not racist. It is natural to feel this way and in no way, shape or form makes you a racist.

It's the politically correct Ministers of Parliament and the Media who have altered the meaning of racism to niche in with their own agenda.

This is relevant to the Question asked,what is racism mr Singh asked me and i gave my opinion based on what appears to be considered racist by our Communist government,a racist is a person who has a problem with the double standards in place regarding race relations in UK.The race relations industry has caused mor racism than any goosestepping sieg hieling skinhead.The CRE demand that all must favor non whites in all situations as blacks and asians are poor!?There are no poor whites?
Some of their suggestions for eliminating racism are insane,as are some of their definations of racism.The funniest i ever heard was that Bin liners were deliberatly made in black so that people would associate Blacks with rubbish(an absurd claim,but it was bandied about by Kirklees council in the Mid 80s),By that standard,i dont like toilets,the majority of em are white,is that a plot to cause an association between white and well , it begins with S and ends in t and is doubtless associated with a toilet(whatever the colour of the toilet ):D!
Government policy is doubtless anti white and pro non white,i have felt the weight of that racism many times,however if you point it out you are branded a racist.
Look at exempted vacancys in local govt jobs bullitins(exempted from the race relations act 1967)they often ask for applicants only from the minority ethnic communities,but never from the white community!I call that a double standard,Blacks asians and whites are the same and should be allowed to achieve goals on their own merit,to do it any other way is almost like saying they are not as capable as others,which is incorrect.Silly rules like these cause racial tension and they shouldn't exist!Now if that opinion makes me a racist,which i am sure many will say i am,then racist i must be!My Kids wont be happy to hear that i am a racist,they always believed i loved em!!!!

[GETUPTA SINGH]

rac·ism http://cache.lexico.com/dictionary/graphics/luna/thinsp.png
–noun 1.a belief or doctrine that inherent differences among the various human races determine cultural or individual achievement, usually involving the idea that one's own race is superior and has the right to rule others. 2.a policy, system of government, etc., based upon or fostering such a doctrine; discrimination. 3.hatred or intolerance of another race or other races.
.


I'm neither of these but most would undoubtedly consider me 'racist'

[MarkMuses]

I'm neither of these but most would undoubtedly consider me 'racist'

Do you have your own preferred definition for racism then?

[GETUPTA SINGH]

Do you have your own preferred definition for racism then?


I am just proud of my own culture, heritage and traditions. I don't think of myself as superior but I believe all races and cultures have their own distinctive particularisms and differences. I have never really understood the polarised media reporting of ' racist' people who have made slurs against say the english or even muslims. Are these peoples a race? I think my own definition of 'racism ' would simply be the hating or loathing of a person for their racial difference to your own.

[MarkMuses]

...but I believe all races and cultures have their own distinctive particularisms and differences...

I think this in your post meets part of the dictionary definition quoted earlier ie. inherent differences. And so some people might deem you as racist for it.

[Citizen Smith]

I am happy to report that i am clean of Racism. :D

[Thoreau]

I am happy to report that i am clean of Racism. :D

You're racist against your own race. Therefore you are undoubtedly a racist. :P

[Dunkirk]

I am happy to report that i am clean of Racism. :D

How can you claim to be 'clean of racism'. That depends on who you have your next arguement with and whether that person, if not White, Anglo-Saxon believes you to be racist and reports you or if a third party believes you are.

click on the link below:-

How can my son be racist, asks mother of Down's boy charged after playground spat with Asian girl | Mail Online (http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-560226/How-son-racist-asks-mother-Downs-boy-charged-playground-spat-Asian-girl.html)

I wonder if Jamie Bauld considers himself to be 'clean of racism'.

[Citizen Smith]

You're racist against your own race. Therefore you are undoubtedly a racist. :P
LOL!!!! I KNEW YOU WOULD SAY THAT!!
And i don't hate my own race. i am a complete non- racist. So there. :p

[Thoreau]

LOL!!!! I KNEW YOU WOULD SAY THAT!!
And i don't hate my own race. i am a complete non- racist. So there. :p

Am I that predictable?

[pauli007001]

The thing with racism is that even if you feel you are not racist others may percieve you as being exactly that.
Many examples have shown up over the years.Sir paul Condon when he was the head of the London Met was essentially sacked and villified for releasing crime figures indicating larger numbers of crimes were committed by non whites,at the same time he also stated that this may have to do with social and economic problems in the non white communities in london at that time!He stated also that the govnt do somthing to remedy this but no all we heard was he made a racist remark!!
Some believe that the black colour of bin bags is an attempt by whites to associate black with rubbish!(Kirklees metropolitan council taught this in their race relations courses in the late 80s)!
Many feel it is racist to mention cirtain names,for example Kriss Donald,Charlene downes,Mary ann mclachlan,those we have been instructed to forget!
It is however Racist to say it is time to put the Stephen lawrence matter behind us?I just dont get it!
Black and proud is a great thing!
White and proud is racist/supremacist?
Black Power is groovy.
White power?????i wont even go there!:D
Even when Thoreau stated that if a white person tried to take his culture he would stamp on their heads(white head)that was racist!
Rappers ranting for death to whites is art.
Whites complaining about it is Racist?
Can any one explain this to me?
I would call it a double standard but every time i do that every one gets all angry and tells me i am a nazi,so what is it?

[Spades]

Rappers ranting for death to whites is art.
Whites complaining about it is Racist?
Can any one explain this to me?
I would call it a double standard but every time i do that every one gets all angry and tells me i am a nazi,so what is it?

Well thats exactly what some members on the forum are. To busy making accusations then when presented with a contradiction like this instead of saying ya they are racist to they ignore it or flip their logic around in order to not give the other side any reasonable claims because that wouldn't help their cause.

[Albion 69]

Some people on this Forum would only recognise a racist if they were dressed head to foot in a white cloak with a big pointy hat .... :rolleyes:

I agree the term racist is used far to frequently in PC Britain , labelling someone racist is an easy option for some who are desperate to win an argument or silence debate but that does not mean real racists should be let off the hook. If it walks like a Duck sounds like a Duck looks like a Duck then i would suggest it is a duck .

[Thoreau]

Some people on this Forum would only recognise a racist if they were dressed head to foot in a white cloak with a big pointy hat .... :rolleyes:

I agree the term racist is used far to frequently in PC Britain , labelling someone racist is an easy option for some who are desperate to win an argument or silence debate but that does not mean real racists should be let off the hook. If it walks like a Duck sounds like a Duck looks like a Duck then i would suggest it is a duck .

Ducks are racist? I would say, Trouble42 is a racist and Trumpeter (bleatin' Black Power').

[Spades]

Some people on this Forum would only recognise a racist if they were dressed head to foot in a white cloak with a big pointy hat .... :rolleyes:

I agree the term racist is used far to frequently in PC Britain , labelling someone racist is an easy option for some who are desperate to win an argument or silence debate but that does not mean real racists should be let off the hook. If it walks like a Duck sounds like a Duck looks like a Duck then i would suggest it is a duck .

Yes, the thing with calling someone a racist on this forum is that it can seriously hurt their credibility. Forum members need to give others time to clarify comments at the very least before jumping the gun. This word is not a toy.

[Albion 69]

Yes, the thing with calling someone a racist on this forum is that it can seriously hurt their credibility. Forum members need to give others time to clarify comments at the very least before jumping the gun. This word is not a toy.

Perhaps Thoreau could clarify these comments then ....

That's because they (Muslims) want to kill anyone and invade the lands of anyone who isn't a Muslim. So, one can not help, but these inhumane creatures into category and everyone else into another.

[Thoreau]

Islam is not a race, thefore I am not being racist.

[Albion 69]

Islam is not a race, thefore I am not being racist.

Semantics .... 'race' is a very imprecise term your use of the word Muslims lumping them all together suggests you view them as a race ..... who are inhumane creatures ?

[Thoreau]

Semantics .... 'race' is a very imprecise term your use of the word Muslims lumping them all together suggests you view them as a race ..... who are inhumane creatures ?

Laughable, twisting the words meaning to fit your own agenda. It might work with fickle and uneducated Liberal's and Lefties, but it won't wash with me sunshine. So, drop the act. :D

I think you better quit while you are ahead, Mr Alert Button, Man!

[Albion 69]

Laughable, twisting the words meaning to fit your own agenda. It might work with fickle and uneducated Liberal's and Lefties, but it won't wash with me sunshine. So, drop the act. :D

I think you better quit while you are ahead, Mr Alert Button, Man!

What a plonker .....:rolleyes:

[MarkMuses]

Islam is not a race, thefore I am not being racist.

Correct. However you are being obnoxious to other posters by your complete lack of self-discipline.

Therefore you are not a very nice person at the moment. Am I right Thoreau? I will take your guaranteed silence as admittance :D

[Trumpeter]

Hello T,
I voice the blackmans concerns so it be understood.I try to bridge the gap in understanding primarily from a black prrspective hoping to achieve greater understanding,if that makes me a racist I guess you have your own definition.
I do not seek to prefer association purely on the grounds of race but on the conduct of the people who might be engaged.
Race and Religion are two of the most devisive medium resulting in wars and uphevals in the world for generations.It is a pity we still canno learn.
Trumpeter(bleating and bleating the truth once again)

[Citizen Smith]

Am I that predictable?
Yes, I am afraid so. :p

[Spades]

Correct. However you are being obnoxious to other posters by your complete lack of self-discipline.

Therefore you are not a very nice person at the moment. Am I right Thoreau? I will take your guaranteed silence as admittance :D

Can I find out why he was banned? I don't want to question the moderators but I don't feel like it is overstepping my boundaries to ask why he was banned.

[MarkMuses]

Can I find out why he was banned? I don't want to question the moderators but I don't feel like it is overstepping my boundaries to ask why he was banned.

You might try private messaging: Politics Forum and Political Blog discussing and debating political and social issues. - View Profile: stevectaylor (http://www.politic.co.uk/members/stevectaylor.html)

[pauli007001]

The thing with racism is that even if you feel you are not racist others may percieve you as being exactly that.
Many examples have shown up over the years.Sir paul Condon when he was the head of the London Met was essentially sacked and villified for releasing crime figures indicating larger numbers of crimes were committed by non whites,at the same time he also stated that this may have to do with social and economic problems in the non white communities in london at that time!He stated also that the govnt do somthing to remedy this but no all we heard was he made a racist remark!!
Some believe that the black colour of bin bags is an attempt by whites to associate black with rubbish!(Kirklees metropolitan council taught this in their race relations courses in the late 80s)!
Many feel it is racist to mention cirtain names,for example Kriss Donald,Charlene downes,Mary ann mclachlan,those we have been instructed to forget!
It is however Racist to say it is time to put the Stephen lawrence matter behind us?I just dont get it!
Black and proud is a great thing!
White and proud is racist/supremacist?
Black Power is groovy.
White power?????i wont even go there!:D
Even when Thoreau stated that if a white person tried to take his culture he would stamp on their heads(white head)that was racist!
Rappers ranting for death to whites is art.
Whites complaining about it is Racist?
Can any one explain this to me?
I would call it a double standard but every time i do that every one gets all angry and tells me i am a nazi,so what is it?

I wonder why Citizen smith will never answer these questions,nor any other lefty!If i cant see it i must be racist....right?Ah that old commie philosophy,agree with us or die!!!!!!
I guess the honkey ,redneck ,crackers desrve all they get and more!I am becoming a commie and will hate myself for ever and spent the rest of my natural life apologising for things i never did............Sorry for slavery ,it all my fault on account of my skin colour,please kill me i deserve no better,i am white!!!!!!!!!

[MarkMuses]

Reasonable questions in general I think Pauli. My personal reaction to Thoreau was primarily because of his lapse in debating standards on what is a difficult and often hurtful subject. However, if someone says to me that you cannot question race as a social construct I would object on principle. Sadly people like Thoreau and their mouth foaming opposites ruin debate for me. I hope you get your answers.

[TheLegalEagle]

Can I find out why he was banned? I don't want to question the moderators but I don't feel like it is overstepping my boundaries to ask why he was banned.

Thoreau was banned by myself. Some of his comments were very insulting and above all when i warned him for it i was insulted by the dear fellow. A quick IP search on the forum database showed that Thoreau was in fact....*drum roll*....Pique! And was also C.E.F, a member veterans may remember for his anti-moderator attitude.

The IP's for all three accounts matched, thus he had multiple accounts. A bannable offence. :)

[Spades]

Thoreau was banned by myself. Some of his comments were very insulting and above all when i warned him for it i was insulted by the dear fellow. A quick IP search on the forum database showed that Thoreau was in fact....*drum roll*....Pique! And was also C.E.F, a member veterans may remember for his anti-moderator attitude.

The IP's for all three accounts matched, thus he had multiple accounts. A bannable offence. :)

Well isn't that a twist of all twists. Now I understand why Thoreau had such little patience with posters on this forum. I was hoping Pique would come back to these forums but I guess not =/

[Tete123]

I wonder why Citizen smith will never answer these questions,nor any other lefty!If i cant see it i must be racist....right?Ah that old commie philosophy,agree with us or die!!!!!!
I guess the honkey ,redneck ,crackers desrve all they get and more!I am becoming a commie and will hate myself for ever and spent the rest of my natural life apologising for things i never did............Sorry for slavery ,it all my fault on account of my skin colour,please kill me i deserve no better,i am white!!!!!!!!!

Why is it that anybody with a left leaning political stance is automatically labeled a 'commie'? Very few on the left would describe themselves as out and out communists.
The left defend their views every bit as ardently as those on the right. With regards the questions that you ask, they were all very reasonable, I agree that their is a major imbalance in the PC agenda. I wouldn't say I am proud to be white, but I'm certainly not ashamed of it, to be honest it isn't really something I think about too often.

I think you slightly miss the point regarding the slavery issue, the British do not need to be sorry for their role in slavery and colonisation, but it should be acknowledged that the effects on Africa were nothing but negative in the long run. I do not agree that this means we should face mass immigration with no control to compensate for our past empire, but I do believe we should continue to support Africa for the foreseeable future, contrary to opinion there have been improvements in the last 20 years.
To be proud of ones heritage and preserve our culture we must accept the good with the bad. The fact that I personally have never kept a slave, nor am I directly to blame for the colonisation of Africa is irrespective, as is the fact I'm white.. Its about being British.

The argument I always make to the right and the BNP in particular is that they focus too much on immigration. I have accused the BNP of being a one policy party to which I am read the full manifesto by their supporters, yet so much time is spent on the single issue of immigration and denouncing all that isn't white British that its hard to look past this and see what they have to offer elsewhere.

The fact that certain views attract certain labels, refer back to the beginning of this post. I'm sure you dislike being labeled a Nazi as much as I do a Communist!!

[Albion 69]

Thoreau was in fact....*drum roll*....Pique! And was also C.E.F, a member veterans may remember for his anti-moderator attitude.


I wonder who he will appear as next ? my bet would be a character from the left probably a Communist .

Is he just an attention seeking muppet or a frustrated actor with a personality disorder ... who knows ;)

[Citizen Smith]

I wonder who he will appear as next ? my bet would be a character from the left probably a Communist .

Is he just an attention seeking muppet or a frustrated actor with a personality disorder ... who knows ;)
Since they are wise to his IP..... i think that will be his last bow, No curtain call for Thoreau i think. :p

[TheLegalEagle]

Since they are wise to his IP..... i think that will be his last bow, No curtain call for Thoreau i think. :p

Our resident communist is correct. His IP address has been banned accordingly. We shall be plagued no more. :D

[pauli007001]

Why is it that anybody with a left leaning political stance is automatically labeled a 'commie'? Very few on the left would describe themselves as out and out communists.
The left defend their views every bit as ardently as those on the right. With regards the questions that you ask, they were all very reasonable, I agree that their is a major imbalance in the PC agenda. I wouldn't say I am proud to be white, but I'm certainly not ashamed of it, to be honest it isn't really something I think about too often.

I think you slightly miss the point regarding the slavery issue, the British do not need to be sorry for their role in slavery and colonisation, but it should be acknowledged that the effects on Africa were nothing but negative in the long run. I do not agree that this means we should face mass immigration with no control to compensate for our past empire, but I do believe we should continue to support Africa for the foreseeable future, contrary to opinion there have been improvements in the last 20 years.
To be proud of ones heritage and preserve our culture we must accept the good with the bad. The fact that I personally have never kept a slave, nor am I directly to blame for the colonisation of Africa is irrespective, as is the fact I'm white.. Its about being British.

The argument I always make to the right and the BNP in particular is that they focus too much on immigration. I have accused the BNP of being a one policy party to which I am read the full manifesto by their supporters, yet so much time is spent on the single issue of immigration and denouncing all that isn't white British that its hard to look past this and see what they have to offer elsewhere.

The fact that certain views attract certain labels, refer back to the beginning of this post. I'm sure you dislike being labeled a Nazi as much as I do a Communist!!

My beliefs and politics have nothing at all to do with the socialist doctrines of the NAZIs.My beliefs are LIBERTARIAN.Freedom and independance in every aspect of life!The NAZI and COMMIE or left and right all desire to controll and subjigate.Libertatianism holds that all live free,free of wastefull taxation,free of interference,free from nosey government,free to be sucsessfull in life.You know free,can you remember free not being watched by the govt,not being indoctrinated by govnt owned media outlets,not being forced to feel guilty for things you never did,do you remember it?In the UK today people think freedom is getting the biggest Giro possible and being high up on the council waiting lists for housing!This is not freedom it is controll(by the govnt).Of course freedom involves being responsible and working for your own sucess,not relying on a govnt that will take away what you work for befor you even see it yourself.
Your buddy Citizen smith belives that freedom and responsibility and lower taxes make for NAZISM,but will not give anything of substance in his posts.Of course he hasnt the skills that you have in communication and debate,and for that me old left wing pal......Kudos to you!!!:)

[Citizen Smith]

Your buddy Citizen smith belives that freedom and responsibility and lower taxes make for NAZISM:)
Funny, I don't remember saying that. :confused:

[Dunkirk]

Funny, I don't remember saying that. :confused:

Perhaps if you made an attempt to outline in your own words what your POV is rather than deal in one-liners then people wouldn't ascribe to you views that you may not hold.

[Citizen Smith]

Perhaps if you made an attempt to outline in your own words what your POV is rather than deal in one-liners then people wouldn't ascribe to you views that you may not hold.
I i say less, it should be easy to see what i said. ( Annoying one liner)

[pauli007001]

Funny, I don't remember saying that. :confused:

2/7/2008 at 4 44 pm you quoted an exerpt from one of my posts then indicated that i was a NAZI.Of course you cherry picked this quote and mis translated it in order to throw around these accusations that evryone is a nazi unless they are stalinists!The quote was taken from a larger post,and had nothing to do with any nazi philosophy,it was in fact about personal freedom and responsibility!If you feel a part of it was nazi,then you must feel the whole thing is nazi.Freedom,independance ,lower taxes,prsonal responsibility,reduced government controll,reduced dependance on welfare/charity,increased self esteem/respect are in your mind,via your critisism of my post , all Nazi type philosophies.Government controll,loss of freedom,loss of pride,loss of choice are all good then?You are incapable of debating,which coming from me an uneducated oik who never went to uni is a pretty bad observation!Look forward to your next 20 or less words on the matter,oh and a smiley, i am sure!Oh you should find the post you made in the Aussies can ban whatever thread!

[Citizen Smith]

2/7/2008 at 4 44 pm you quoted an exerpt from one of my posts then indicated that i was a NAZI.Of course you cherry picked this quote and mis translated it in order to throw around these accusations that evryone is a nazi unless they are stalinists!The quote was taken from a larger post,and had nothing to do with any nazi philosophy,it was in fact about personal freedom and responsibility!If you feel a part of it was nazi,then you must feel the whole thing is nazi.Freedom,independance ,lower taxes,prsonal responsibility,reduced government controll,reduced dependance on welfare/charity,increased self esteem/respect are in your mind,via your critisism of my post , all Nazi type philosophies.Government controll,loss of freedom,loss of pride,loss of choice are all good then?You are incapable of debating,which coming from me an uneducated oik who never went to uni is a pretty bad observation!Look forward to your next 20 or less words on the matter,oh and a smiley, i am sure!Oh you should find the post you made in the Aussies can ban whatever thread!
you get my opinion, and only a smiley if you are very nice and very lucky.

[pauli007001]

you get my opinion, and only a smiley if you are very nice and very lucky.

IM holding my breath untill i get one!:D

[MarkMuses]

Why has foxy (sorry Wolfie) changed his avatar? And why is he smoking a fag? Extinguish it this instant. Don't you know we are all secondarily smoking thanks to your revolutionary zeal? Actually, have you got a light? Mines gone out.

[pauli007001]

Why has foxy (sorry Wolfie) changed his avatar? And why is he smoking a fag? Extinguish it this instant. Don't you know we are all secondarily smoking thanks to your revolutionary zeal? Actually, have you got a light? Mines gone out.

Can i have one ...... my wife aint looking!!!!
What was that show anyway,the one with wolfie,i remember it vaguely,from what the seventies?It was funny!But then robert lindsey always was,My Family was also a hit!

[Citizen Smith]

Can i have one ...... my wife aint looking!!!!
What was that show anyway,the one with wolfie,i remember it vaguely,from what the seventies?It was funny!But then robert lindsey always was,My Family was also a hit!
i wasn't around when it came out, but iIve seen them on DVD, it was Called: Citizen Smith. It was a pretty funny comedy series about a young revolutionist and his girlfriend, also involving her father. :)

[Dunkirk]

From what I remember he was the leader of the Tooting Popular Front and his girlfriend lived at home with her parents in a nice South London suburb. He was called Wolfie but his girlfriend's Mum always got it wrong and called him Foxy.

[Spartacus]

I find racists to be irrational to be honest. I have had many conversations with them on a wide range of subjects and if it is not about race some of them are quite reasonable , logical , etc etc but as soon as race comes into the debate many seem to become completely different people altogether. It is quite staggering to behold .

[MarkMuses]

Tanya must be pleased with this 'bait' thread. Indeed so I imagine are Cardiff and London Escorts :D

[Albion 69]

Tanya must be pleased with this 'bait' thread. Indeed so I imagine are Cardiff and London Escorts

Good spot MM !! ..... but why only Cardiff and London ? coming to a city near you soon perhaps :eek:

'Are you Racist' threads must be one of the most productive on all forums , we could come back in ten years and they would still be going .... hardy perennial (or is that tree related) :confused:

[Jester P]

It's true it's hard not to be racist when you can't even ask for a black coffee nowadays but I've all ways found that talking to racists their arguments are usually based on scare mongering and points which are opinion based with little fact if any. I'm not racist in essence but sometimes when you think a race is being treated better than you or yours it's very hard not to be racist. For example Black history month at my school, I merely suggested a white history month and I was rudely told that every month is white history month:mad:. To sum up I'm not racist in my opinion but other make think different and I don't agree with racists (especially BNP as often their members are ignorant and they pray on public fears but I respect them as a party) on the whole but some racists come up with good points.

[MarkMuses]

Good spot MM !! ..... but why only Cardiff and London ? coming to a city near you soon perhaps :eek:

'Are you Racist' threads must be one of the most productive on all forums , we could come back in ten years and they would still be going .... hardy perennial (or is that tree related) :confused:

Yes, I think they're fuelled by Nazis but also by the opposite as I think Jester has described. It's a bit of a riddle to me.

[Trouble43]

So let me answer them for you, eh? As a socialist I mean. Oh and apparently a racist one according to Thoreau. Sadly, he can't goad me anymore now his mate has grassed him up.

some believe that the black colour of bin bags is an attempt by whites to associate black with rubbish!(Kirklees metropolitan council taught this in their race relations courses in the late 80s)!

Councils (across the UK) are well known for their madcap schemes the drive both sides of the race fence mad. My local council tried to ban the villages round me from having union jacks flying in both private front gardens and also town squares. The local ethnic population were as angry (and bemused) as the rest of us.

As one muslim bloke said "it's Britain, why can't we fly a British flag?". So the answer to your question is to re-educate the councillors that no one gives a flying fig if we have black, brown, green or sky blue with purple spots coloured bin bags. (though I don't know for certain if the sky blue purple spotted aliens from Persius Omicron 8 would agree. ;))

Many feel it is racist to mention cirtain names,for example Kriss Donald,Charlene downes,Mary ann mclachlan,those we have been instructed to forget!

I have to say to say that I don't know of anyone (from any political leaning) who thinks any race hate crime should be forgotten. Well, except for those pesky councillors again. The Ealing ones would love every local to believe the Southall race riots of the 80's were a collective hallucination.

It is however Racist to say it is time to put the Stephen lawrence matter behind us?I just dont get it!

Again, not my experience. Many people, black and white, feel that so long as we learn from his death (as with all race murders) then we should now sbe moving on.

Black and proud is a great thing!

Ummm, well why should someone not be proud of their culture/colour? I'm half Irish and immensely proud of my Celtic roots. I am also proud of my English heritage.

White and proud is racist/supremacist?

No, white and proud is the same thing as black and proud. The difference steps in when you start getting people talking about 'white race traitors' and the smashing of these so called 'white race traitors skulls'.

It would be the same as saying you couldn't understand why Germany was condemned for Kristallnacht. People didn't have much of a problem with the Nazi's bigging up the German pride in the 'fatherland'. However, once they started to belittle and pick on one section of their society for no more than their religious beliefs, then that becomes something that is wrong.

Black Power is groovy.[

I haven't heard anything called groovy since the 70's! :D But as to the black power - please refer to reply above.
White power?????i wont even go there!

Why not? There's nothing wrong with being proud of your race. The trouble comes in when you feel that you need to eradicate or subjugate another race to feel better about your own.

Even when Thoreau stated that if a white person tried to take his culture he would stamp on their heads(white head)that was racist!

Well it certainly wasn't all sunshine and lollipops was it? But as a white supremacist/fascist point of view it wasn't very......encompassing was it?

Rappers ranting for death to whites is art.

No it is racism. Anyone wanting the death of someone else based only their colour/race/religion, etc is is not discussing, singing, ranting about 'art'. Although this is my take on art - I like Monet, Constable, et al. Not the likes of Hockney's pickled cow, or Tracey Emin's filthy bed.

Whites complaining about it is Racist?

No, it's not - it's only racist when whites wish to denigrate other races without cause (and vice versa).

Can any one explain this to me?

Have explained now?

I would call it a double standard but every time i do that every one gets all angry and tells me i am a nazi,so what is it?

I don't think I've called you a nazi. I think you have a strange fixation with the word 'commie'.; but that's all.

I wonder why Citizen smith will never answer these questions,nor any other lefty!If i cant see it i must be racist....right?Ah that old commie philosophy,agree with us or die!!!!!!

Well, I'm not Citizen Smith admittedly, but I hope my replies are alright.

I guess the honkey ,redneck ,crackers desrve all they get and more!I am becoming a commie and will hate myself for ever and spent the rest of my natural life apologising for things i never did............Sorry for slavery ,it all my fault on account of my skin colour,please kill me i deserve no better,i am white!!!!!!!!!

I'm assuming this bits just a general rant then?

[pauli007001]

So let me answer them for you, eh? As a socialist I mean. Oh and apparently a racist one according to Thoreau. Sadly, he can't goad me anymore now his mate has grassed him up.



Councils (across the UK) are well known for their madcap schemes the drive both sides of the race fence mad. My local council tried to ban the villages round me from having union jacks flying in both private front gardens and also town squares. The local ethnic population were as angry (and bemused) as the rest of us.

As one muslim bloke said "it's Britain, why can't we fly a British flag?". So the answer to your question is to re-educate the councillors that no one gives a flying fig if we have black, brown, green or sky blue with purple spots coloured bin bags. (though I don't know for certain if the sky blue purple spotted aliens from Persius Omicron 8 would agree. ;))



I have to say to say that I don't know of anyone (from any political leaning) who thinks any race hate crime should be forgotten. Well, except for those pesky councillors again. The Ealing ones would love every local to believe the Southall race riots of the 80's were a collective hallucination.



Again, not my experience. Many people, black and white, feel that so long as we learn from his death (as with all race murders) then we should now sbe moving on.



Ummm, well why should someone not be proud of their culture/colour? I'm half Irish and immensely proud of my Celtic roots. I am also proud of my English heritage.



No, white and proud is the same thing as black and proud. The difference steps in when you start getting people talking about 'white race traitors' and the smashing of these so called 'white race traitors skulls'.

It would be the same as saying you couldn't understand why Germany was condemned for Kristallnacht. People didn't have much of a problem with the Nazi's bigging up the German pride in the 'fatherland'. However, once they started to belittle and pick on one section of their society for no more than their religious beliefs, then that becomes something that is wrong.



I haven't heard anything called groovy since the 70's! :D But as to the black power - please refer to reply above.


Why not? There's nothing wrong with being proud of your race. The trouble comes in when you feel that you need to eradicate or subjugate another race to feel better about your own.



Well it certainly wasn't all sunshine and lollipops was it? But as a white supremacist/fascist point of view it wasn't very......encompassing was it?



No it is racism. Anyone wanting the death of someone else based only their colour/race/religion, etc is is not discussing, singing, ranting about 'art'. Although this is my take on art - I like Monet, Constable, et al. Not the likes of Hockney's pickled cow, or Tracey Emin's filthy bed.



No, it's not - it's only racist when whites wish to denigrate other races without cause (and vice versa).



Have explained now?



I don't think I've called you a nazi. I think you have a strange fixation with the word 'commie'.; but that's all.



Well, I'm not Citizen Smith admittedly, but I hope my replies are alright.



I'm assuming this bits just a general rant then?

No not a rant it is called sarcasm!
Now head down to your local high st,with a black friend!have your black friend stnd at one extreme of the st shouting "Black Power"
You stand at the other shouting "White power"
Let me know what happens!!!( i know ,an army buddy and i did the same inside the peace hall in Halifax(Happyfax as it is also known)!I finished my day in HX pig shop,he finished his day in the acapulco(best/worst club in HX)!But no double standard,right,and on this point most people would agree,black or white,the rules are silly all people are Equal!
Dont say it out loud though!

[Trouble43]

No not a rant it is called sarcasm!
Now head down to your local high st,with a black friend!have your black friend stnd at one extreme of the st shouting "Black Power"
You stand at the other shouting "White power"
Let me know what happens!!!( i know ,an army buddy and i did the same inside the peace hall in Halifax(Happyfax as it is also known)!I finished my day in HX pig shop,he finished his day in the acapulco(best/worst club in HX)!But no double standard,right,and on this point most people would agree,black or white,the rules are silly all people are Equal!
Dont say it out loud though!

Well round here in Staffs and where I grew up, nothing like that ever happened. Yeah we had the race riots in the 80's (but shhhh.....Ealing Council like to pretend it never happened. :rolleyes:). That aside for the most part we all get along. Blacks and whites certainly intermix better than asians and whites do, but heyho that's life.

I have an adopted asian sister and, surprisingly, we get a lot more stick from the asian community about it than we do the white.

I think the problem is this paulie - when whites are discriminated against by the ethnic community the local councils say that it is 'positive discrimination'. That just puts everyone's backs up.

My black mates and my sister say that that is wrong. If you discriminate against someone then there is nothing positive about it - if you discriminate against someone they're colour shouldn't matter and the purpetrator should be punished. I agree with them. Sadly the councils are away in fairyland......

But what about the rest of my answers? Do they answer the questions you raised with Citizen Smith; as a socialist I want to know if I'm letting the side down. :D

[pauli007001]

Well round here in Staffs and where I grew up, nothing like that ever happened. Yeah we had the race riots in the 80's (but shhhh.....Ealing Council like to pretend it never happened. :rolleyes:). That aside for the most part we all get along. Blacks and whites certainly intermix better than asians and whites do, but heyho that's life.

I have an adopted asian sister and, surprisingly, we get a lot more stick from the asian community about it than we do the white.

I think the problem is this paulie - when whites are discriminated against by the ethnic community the local councils say that it is 'positive discrimination'. That just puts everyone's backs up.

My black mates and my sister say that that is wrong. If you discriminate against someone then there is nothing positive about it - if you discriminate against someone they're colour shouldn't matter and the purpetrator should be punished. I agree with them. Sadly the councils are away in fairyland......

But what about the rest of my answers? Do they answer the questions you raised with Citizen Smith; as a socialist I want to know if I'm letting the side down. :D

Your answers are realistic,honest and without a doubt heartfelt.
Go and read socialist worker,or searchlight or even give voice to this view in your place of work.You will immediatly accused of being a BNP Type!Try it and see!

[Spartacus]

No socialist should or can support racism , its a contradiction in terms. All the white traitor nonsense is complete rubbish .

[Trouble43]

Your answers are realistic,honest and without a doubt heartfelt.
Go and read socialist worker,or searchlight or even give voice to this view in your place of work.You will immediatly accused of being a BNP Type!Try it and see!


Thanks Paulie! (see I love Ex marks too! ;)) I don't know about the papers and such - I tend to stick to Marx's system and also what my mum, God rest her, taught me. 'Do as you would be done by', its kept me in good stead and I think its a simple enough rule that even durbrain like me can stick to it. :D

I can't work, health sucks big time and I spend a lot of time at GPs and hospital, but with an adopted asian sister I can hardly be accused of being a racist. LOL!

Take care Paulie, I hope you're doing well today.

[Citizen Smith]

Thanks Paulie! (see I love Ex marks too! ) I don't know about the papers and such - I tend to stick to Marx's system and also what my mum, God rest her, taught me. 'Do as you would be done by', its kept me in good stead and I think its a simple enough rule that even durbrain like me can stick to it. :D

I can't work, health sucks big time and I spend a lot of time at GPs and hospital, but with an adopted asian sister I can hardly be accused of being a racist. LOL!

Take care Paulie, I hope you're doing well today.
Nice one Trouble, your last few posts on this thread have been absolutely top class- great stuff. :)

[Tacitus]

t I've all ways found that talking to racists their arguments are usually based on scare mongering and points which are opinion based with little fact if any. I'm not racist in essence

No. neither am I. But like the typical communist drone, you have phrased your post in such a way that it can not be disputed without that allegation arising.

FIRST. "WHAT is a racist"?

IF a person comes to a party at my house. Starts ****ing behind the T.V, rips of the wall paper, smashes the windows, sets fire to the dog and spray paintd the cat pink, then I, as EVERY sane person would do, would EITHR do the job myself, OR I would get onto the police to have the ******* thrown as far away from my house as possible.

Now, when I apply that to my COUNTRY, people say I am "racist". WHY?

It is PURE common sense.

I work for a Government department that is responsible, among many other things, for collating all the crime figures at the end of the year, and publishing the report.

Now. Turks/Middle Easterners form less than 10% of the population. BUT year after year, the crime figures show (Offence for offence, NOT with all this "F1" and "Mean" and all that number cruncher statistical techno crap), that this section of the population are comitting 24 to 25% of ALL crime, and in some crime areas, such as street robbery, knife offences, and vandalism, the number is as high as 80%(!) of the perpetrators are from the 10% Middle eastern/Turkish population.

In areas of Germany, but in Berlin, where I know best. Local Turk/M.E groups get together and start a campaign to get pubs in "their area" closed down.

Because "We object to alcohol being sold in "our area".

This has happened to at LEAST 15 pubs that I KNOW of in the last five years.

With five of these it has happened in areas with less than 2% Turk/ME population. (A group of streets, say 20 streets or so may have 2% Turk/ME, BUT when they get a "local vote" together, the WHOLE local council area can vote. So, EVERY Turk/ME living in that area votes, so over whelming the Germans that live in the area. Because Germans are just not interested in what happens 15 streets away IF they ever find out/are told that a vote is even taking place. It is a legal way of "stuffing ballot boxes".)

AS an end piece to the pub tale, ALL 15, reopened within the year as Kebab places owned by RELATIVES of those that complained ( ;) , as those that complained are banned from having any ownership/partnerships in those businesses about which they complained.), and guess what?

EVERY single one of them is selling beers, wines, and spirits!.

Second report.

My Wife, who se family have lived in Berlin since 1740, and in Potsdam before that, was on her way home from work in Kreuzberg. She was stiopped by three guys, who DEMANDED that she cover her head as "this is a muslim area"!!!

Needless to say she is NOR a small woman, and put one in hospital for two days and the other two with SERIOUSLY bruised balls, in the E.R for a night.

NOW. if you think the above three examples are BLOODY disgusting. Then you are;

1) CORRECT

2) PROBABLY going to have racist screamed at you until the pathetic wee pinkoe is sick on your shoes.

Now if the above makes me a racist in YOUR eyes, it makes YOU a blathering, naive, idiot in my eyes.

[Trumpeter]

I don't think you are a racist ,you are just a fantasist like Max Moseley.Fortunately the world has moved on.Do you have a dungeon underneath your cellar.
Did you study one of Hitlers rant and try to do better?

Trumpeter

[Trouble43]

Nice one Trouble, your last few posts on this thread have been absolutely top class- great stuff.

Thanks CS; I think I may well be banned fairly soon, so its been nice knowing you.:o

You will have to keep the socialist voice going after that. <thumbs up> Can't let the side down can we? POWER TO THE PEOPLE!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!:D

[Tacitus]

Fortunately the world has moved on.Do you have a dungeon underneath your cellar.
Did you study one of Hitlers rant and try to do better?

Oh. I see. So you are all VERY modern and LET people **** behind your T.V, and ACCEPT that walking around your OWN country, your wife/girlfriend/Mother/Granny should be FORCED to wear a rag on her head do you?

"fantasist" :confused: Now you have REALLY lost me.

Explain.

[johnofgwent]

The IP's for all three accounts matched, thus he had multiple accounts. A bannable offence. :)

Interesting. I wonder if I will be next.

There are five computers at this location all sharing the same wireless router and all using the same IP address.

I have posted on other sites and written many times to the "mainstream" press and media that I find it utterly deplorable that my 22 year old and 17 year old daughters are both ignored by politicians local, cardiffian and westminsterian alike. All of the politicians bemoan the lack of interest in politics by 'the young' but not once have I seen a politician on my doorstep on ten years because we live in a location where new liebour HAVE enjoyed such a tub-thumping majority on all levels of government it would take a military coup to throw them out. Now having said that the local elections here resulted in a hung council (I live in hope of the other meaning of that coming to pass!)

My point I came here to make is this :-

I encourage my two daughters to make the fullest use of the 'net and to engage in sites like this to amke their views heard.

I DONT censor or restrict their access mechanisms (although TELL them I have the means to monitor what they so, as they need to understand their future employers will .....)

I DONT know if they have accounts on this site.

But from your logic if they do all three of us can expect to get kicked off for having the audacity to make out vierws heard.

PS you DO know that T-Mobile's USB Broadband dongle uses the same IP address for the gateway used by all of its THOUSANDS of customers don't you. If I were posting here from my laptop using that dongle I could be any of them.

Hopefully this won't annoy the moderator too much .....:eek:

[Tacitus]

PS you DO know that T-Mobile's USB Broadband dongle uses the same IP address for the gateway used by all of its THOUSANDS of customers don't you. If I were posting here from my laptop using that dongle I could be any of them.



This is a very similarproblem I have here with Amazon. We have house number 20. BUT No 20 has eight flts within it.

One of the neigbours was a bad payer before she left to make mail bags, so now NO one inthe house can order ANYTHING from catalogues, Amazon type site, book clubs, ALL have the address blacked, although 8 families live here.

[Trouble43]

Interesting. I wonder if I will be next.

There are five computers at this location all sharing the same wireless router and all using the same IP address.

I have posted on other sites and written many times to the "mainstream" press and media that I find it utterly deplorable that my 22 year old and 17 year old daughters are both ignored by politicians local, cardiffian and westminsterian alike. All of the politicians bemoan the lack of interest in politics by 'the young' but not once have I seen a politician on my doorstep on ten years because we live in a location where new liebour HAVE enjoyed such a tub-thumping majority on all levels of government it would take a military coup to throw them out. Now having said that the local elections here resulted in a hung council (I live in hope of the other meaning of that coming to pass!)

My point I came here to make is this :-

I encourage my two daughters to make the fullest use of the 'net and to engage in sites like this to amke their views heard.

I DONT censor or restrict their access mechanisms (although TELL them I have the means to monitor what they so, as they need to understand their future employers will .....)

I DONT know if they have accounts on this site.

But from your logic if they do all three of us can expect to get kicked off for having the audacity to make out vierws heard.

PS you DO know that T-Mobile's USB Broadband dongle uses the same IP address for the gateway used by all of its THOUSANDS of customers don't you. If I were posting here from my laptop using that dongle I could be any of them.

Hopefully this won't annoy the moderator too much .....:eek:

There was more to Thoreau/Pique getting banned. TLE is a nice guy, very helpful and friendly, he wouldn't ban you for what you've said is the background to your membership. :)

[Spartacus]

Some people on this Forum would only recognise a racist if they were dressed head to foot in a white cloak with a big pointy hat .... :rolleyes:

I agree the term racist is used far to frequently in PC Britain , labelling someone racist is an easy option for some who are desperate to win an argument or silence debate but that does not mean real racists should be let off the hook. If it walks like a Duck sounds like a Duck looks like a Duck then i would suggest it is a duck .

Greetings Albion 69 ,

So what defines someone as a " real racist " in your opinion ?

To understand racism you have to understand the historical record of its promotion and uses by power structures that rule the countries involved.

It is a very useful tool , very useful. A compliant media set the agenda for debate , acceptable debate :D on current issues and what they choose to cover will have a huge influence on public attitudes towards racial issues.

So you can whip up hysteria about say Mugabe in Zimbabwe , ya know "barbaric Africans" et al and curry support for actions against them. Which are for the benefit of western business make no mistake.
Likewise , if any white person raises a cry of despair from the disgruntled mass of the labour market , you can also now round on him and say he is a racist. Elites setting the framework are happy using racism when and where and in any direction against any colour. Now that's a pretty good weapon ya have to admit.

[TheLegalEagle]

There was more to Thoreau/Pique getting banned. TLE is a nice guy, very helpful and friendly, he wouldn't ban you for what you've said is the background to your membership. :)


T43 is correct. I will not go into details, but Pique's banning does have more into it and the people involved know who they are.

I do monitor IP addresses sometimes, but there are ways of telling different people on the same IP and those who have multiple accounts.

Now, can we please get back on topic? :)

[Citizen Smith]

Greetings Albion 69 ,

So what defines someone as a " real racist " in your opinion ?

To understand racism you have to understand the historical record of its promotion and uses by power structures that rule the countries involved.

It is a very useful tool , very useful. A compliant media set the agenda for debate , acceptable debate :D on current issues and what they choose to cover will have a huge influence on public attitudes towards racial issues.

So you can whip up hysteria about say Mugabe in Zimbabwe , ya know "barbaric Africans" et al and curry support for actions against them. Which are for the benefit of western business make no mistake.
Likewise , if any white person raises a cry of despair from the disgruntled mass of the labour market , you can also now round on him and say he is a racist. Elites setting the framework are happy using racism when and where and in any direction against any colour. Now that's a pretty good weapon ya have to admit.
And the BNP intend to use it to try and get some votes for once.

[Albion 69]

Greetings Albion 69 ,
So what defines someone as a " real racist " in your opinion ?


Greetings Spartacus,

A 'real racist' may or may not fit a specific dictionary definition but they are pretty easy to spot . Some are clever enough not to make overtly racist comments but they usually give themselves away eventually . It can be quite amusing watching them skirt round the issue knowing they are itching to let rip.

[Spartacus]

Greetings Spartacus,

A 'real racist' may or may not fit a specific dictionary definition but they are pretty easy to spot . Some are clever enough not to make overtly racist comments but they usually give themselves away eventually . It can be quite amusing watching them skirt round the issue knowing they are itching to let rip.

Well I have been discussing things with racists for many years and I can spot it a mile off and you are right it is amusing to see how they play hide and seek whilst bursting to come out with it.

I think the over riding thing about racists is that they know themselves that it is highly illogical to claim to hate entire races of people and spend their whole life thumbing through every article that may offer some justification for their illogical stance.

I dislike the hateful utterings of racists and find that I can only stick with any discussions with them by enjoying the scurrying around the have to do in defending their dubious claims. I try hard not to totally let rip on them and have learned to enjoy poking holes in racism in a more controlled state of mind :D

You are right too , some of them are real clever f*****s its quite a waste really.

[Trouble43]

Here's a question that's niggled me for years - why is a racist, as racist? What I mean is why are they like they are? Why do they believe what they do? That a group of people are somehow lesser purely based on their skin colour/country of origin?

These are queries that Ive never really been able to answer. What about you guys?:confused:

[Tete123]

Well I have been discussing things with racists for many years and I can spot it a mile off and you are right it is amusing to see how they play hide and seek whilst bursting to come out with it.

I think the over riding thing about racists is that they know themselves that it is highly illogical to claim to hate entire races of people and spend their whole life thumbing through every article that may offer some justification for their illogical stance.

I dislike the hateful utterings of racists and find that I can only stick with any discussions with them by enjoying the scurrying around the have to do in defending their dubious claims. I try hard not to totally let rip on them and have learned to enjoy poking holes in racism in a more controlled state of mind :D

You are right too , some of them are real clever f*****s its quite a waste really.

I think one of the fundamental issue we face in the battle to stamp out racism is that no universal definition exists. We are quite often still asking the question 'Is that a racist comment' or 'is that racist behavior.'

Its understandable that people will fear what they do not know or understand.

To quote you Spartacus 'Spend their whole life thumbing through every article that may offer some justification for their illogical stance'

Now I feel this is what religious types do, I do not want to detract from the subject too far here but it reinforces my opinion. My belief is religion has and continues to play a big part in racism, it segregate people into groups and causes more conflict than anything else man has created. Why are religious people religious, my theory is a fear of what comes after, When their life ceases they do not want to then find out that heaven exists, but its too late for redemption. To this end they dedicate their lives, making excuses for their god and finding ways to justify their religious belief, despite the many flaws they surely cannot fail to see.

Racists in my opinion are the same, they are looking for a scapegoat, someone to blame for their own existence, their own situations. They will as you say attempt to justify their actions, to say that its a battle for survival.They are fearful of what might happen, if multiculturalism is allowed to happen. I think though that a majority of racists just do not (because they have been, or are conditioned) believe that what they are saying or doing is racist, they feel they are talking or acting for everyone. This is their biggest problem.. They don't think they are wrong and that a hard thing to recondition.

[Spartacus]

I think one of the fundamental issue we face in the battle to stamp out racism is that no universal definition exists. We are quite often still asking the question 'Is that a racist comment' or 'is that racist behavior.'

Its understandable that people will fear what they do not know or understand.

To quote you Spartacus 'Spend their whole life thumbing through every article that may offer some justification for their illogical stance'

Now I feel this is what religious types do, I do not want to detract from the subject too far here but it reinforces my opinion. My belief is religion has and continues to play a big part in racism, it segregate people into groups and causes more conflict than anything else man has created. Why are religious people religious, my theory is a fear of what comes after, When their life ceases they do not want to then find out that heaven exists, but its too late for redemption. To this end they dedicate their lives, making excuses for their god and finding ways to justify their religious belief, despite the many flaws they surely cannot fail to see.

Racists in my opinion are the same, they are looking for a scapegoat, someone to blame for their own existence, their own situations. They will as you say attempt to justify their actions, to say that its a battle for survival.They are fearful of what might happen, if multiculturalism is allowed to happen. I think though that a majority of racists just do not (because they have been, or are conditioned) believe that what they are saying or doing is racist, they feel they are talking or acting for everyone. This is their biggest problem.. They don't think they are wrong and that a hard thing to recondition.

I totally agree with you Tete and think you have put together a really good post here.
The religious thing is very similar to racist irrationality and I agree with you there too.

People just need to feel part of something . Religion offers everlasting life and will appeal to many simply on that alone.
Racists , for which I think superiority is a big deal , can wallow in racial superiority notions and may well extinguish some of their feelings of inferiority , personal inferiority , in the process. I mean your race must be the easiest thing to claim allegiance to or feel part of for those who need a strong symbol of identity.

You are right about the clouding of the definitions of terms such as racist too. Like so many other things the perversion of definitions serves its purpose of sowing the seeds of confusion.
I mean I recently spoke to an American " Libertarian " who was advocating the assassination of political opponents in a debate on a different forum. :D

Thx for a good reply and I agree with your sentiments by and large

[Trouble43]

I take the point both of you have made with regard to religion.

I am a christian, I don't go to church and tend to not mention my beliefs unless its relevant to a discussion or someone asks. I have an adopted sister whose a sikh, one best friend whose a wiccan and another whose a pagan - though she mostly follows druidism.

I dont judge any of them with regard their beliefs. I know they don't judge me because of mine. They are family and friends and thats all I care about.

I have a cousin whose a homosexual and another whose a lesbian. Again not something I give monkey's about. Again they're family and thats all that bothers me. Well, that and whether they're happy.

I think my faith is personal. I must admit though that I dont go to church because I feel its led by men and not by God. I feel that way about most religions.

I think, and this is just my opinion remember, that if people could follow their faiths without others getting involved and telling them what to do then I think we could fair better.

If you look at most religions it is not the holy book of that religion that incites the violence, but those that preach it. Abu Hamza was a cleric and an imam at Finchley mosque and preached racial hatred regularly; when expelled from the mosque he preached his hatred in the street.

I find the more we're left to make our own decisions about what we believe (or not) then I the more I think we'd get on better.

A case in point is the visit by the gay bishop. He is receiving death threats; at his recent service, here in the UK, people slow clapped and heckled him. Where is this a christian response? Where is this a kind acceptance of all peoples in the world?

It isn't and its why I don't go to church.

[Dunkirk]

I would certainly describe my self, among other things as a nationalist but don't feel that being British is the exclusive preserve of White Anglo-Saxon Protestants. I think that Britishness is something that individuals sign up to on an emotional level and that people of any ethnic origin can be loyal to this country.

I oppose multiculturalism. I think that people migrate to this country to be British. That doesn't mean that immigrants should be expected to deny their ethnic or cultural origins, it means that they should be given every opportunity to take part in mainstream British society and culture.

It means that people should benefit from a legal system in which the judicery is independent of the state and where a subject is innocent until proven guilty.

Multiculturalism is a means by which people are divided. Rather than focus on our common interests as working people we are asked to form allegiances along ethnic, cultural or religious lines.

Multiculturalism fosters resentment among the indigenous population, setting up 'special cases' positive discrimination, etc. Stigmatising anyone who complains as being 'racist'. This fits quite neatly with the interests of global capitalism that sees the existance of the nation state as antagonistic to the pursuit of super-profitability.

[Tete123]

I would certainly describe my self, among other things as a nationalist but don't feel that being British is the exclusive preserve of White Anglo-Saxon Protestants. I think that Britishness is something that individuals sign up to on an emotional level and that people of any ethnic origin can be loyal to this country.

I oppose multiculturalism. I think that people migrate to this country to be British. That doesn't mean that immigrants should be expected to deny their ethnic or cultural origins, it means that they should be given every opportunity to take part in mainstream British society and culture.

It means that people should benefit from a legal system in which the judicery is independent of the state and where a subject is innocent until proven guilty.

Multiculturalism is a means by which people are divided. Rather than focus on our common interests as working people we are asked to form allegiances along ethnic, cultural or religious lines.

Multiculturalism fosters resentment among the indigenous population, setting up 'special cases' positive discrimination, etc. Stigmatising anyone who complains as being 'racist'. This fits quite neatly with the interests of global capitalism that sees the existance of the nation state as antagonistic to the pursuit of super-profitability.

I must say the more politicised I get the the more I share these sentiments Dunkirk, as do many people. The problem is though, in a country open to immigration, how you would avoid multiculturalism. Allowing immigrants (and I'm not saying we shouldn't here) to maintain their ethnic and cultural origins, including religion we are accepting or should at least acknowledge that complete assimilation into British culture is impossible.

Do people migrate to this country to be British? I would disagree the majority do, or if the case is they do, the minority spoil it for the rest. While it may not be desirable to positively encourage multiculturalism I see that either we concede as a nation and accept immigrants and ALL their customs or we toughen the immigration laws and insist on certain conditions from the immigrants, such as minimum level of English language, acceptance of common law and renunciation of the parts of their religion not compatible with living in the UK.

I agree that global capitalism benefits hugely by weak immigration laws, you know my feelings on this so I won't go over them again. The effects in the last 10 years on the UK have resulted in us being closer to rebellion than common ground with our immigrant visitors. Something needs to happen, as to what will happen I don't know.

[claire]

Wow, that's one of the most off-topic series of posts.

[Albion 69]

I must say the more politicised I get the the more I share these sentiments Dunkirk, as do many people. The problem is though, in a country open to immigration, how you would avoid multiculturalism. Allowing immigrants (and I'm not saying we shouldn't here) to maintain their ethnic and cultural origins, including religion we are accepting or should at least acknowledge that complete assimilation into British culture is impossible.

Do people migrate to this country to be British? I would disagree the majority do, or if the case is they do, the minority spoil it for the rest. While it may not be desirable to positively encourage multiculturalism I see that either we concede as a nation and accept immigrants and ALL their customs or we toughen the immigration laws and insist on certain conditions from the immigrants, such as minimum level of English language, acceptance of common law and renunciation of the parts of their religion not compatible with living in the UK.

I agree that global capitalism benefits hugely by weak immigration laws, you know my feelings on this so I won't go over them again. The effects in the last 10 years on the UK have resulted in us being closer to rebellion than common ground with our immigrant visitors. Something needs to happen, as to what will happen I don't know.

As one of the many people you refer to i can only agree with both yours and Dunkirk's posts , something does need to happen asap. It would appear the French are one step ahead of us ....

France has denied citizenship to a Moroccan woman who wears a burqa on the grounds that her "radical" practice of Islam is incompatible with basic French values such as equality of the sexes.

France rejects Muslim woman over radical practice of Islam | World news | The Guardian (http://www.guardian.co.uk/world/2008/jul/12/france.islam)

.... if only we were more robust in defending our values /way of life !

[Tacitus]

France rejects Muslim woman over radical practice of Islam | World news | The Guardian (http://www.guardian.co.uk/world/2008/jul/12/france.islam)

.... if only we were more robust in defending our values /way of life !

They do in Germany, Denmark, Austria, and Holland, among others, as well.

the problem with the U.K is your "Government" using the E.U as a "!get out of jail free" card for ANYTHING that they want to throw at you.

I am amased reading the news paper web sites the amount of things that are blamed on the E.U, such as not being able to send illegal immigrants straight home, when I spend two weeks a month doing JUST that. Italy even sendes other E.U member country citizens home!

But you keep getting told you can not do that.

Bloody RUBBISH!

[MarkMuses]

It is unfortunate that our dodgy thread starter "Miss Whiplash" Tanya didn't help us out a little on this, because in my book racist="race hater" in common parlance and that is what matters, not the varying dictionary definitions. It is therefore perhaps not surprising that few people would wish to self-identify as racist.

Don't we all bleed red? Does a duck? If it walks like a duck then it's a duck etc, but then shouldn't it be about geese here and... the goosestep? Was it ducks that duckstepped across Europe... Bla bla the colour of peoples skin... oh no it's about more than that - phenotypes etc... more genetic diversity within racial groups than between them, ah but Lewontin's fallacy? And then there's the surveys and the accusations and counter accusations of politicising science. Race a social construct? Yes, no, ping pong.... it goes on.

I really don't know whether race is real or significant I'm still trying to make sense of it. I have doubts both ways.

All I do know, is I strongly object to seeing my country being estranged and overpopulated while any objector is deemed racist and so tainted to facilitate yet more of the same. Say no to racism? What the hell does that even mean anymore? Say not to hate? I've noticed plenty of hate from both sides.

[Tacitus]

I really don't know whether race is real or significant I'm still trying to make sense of it. I have doubts both ways.

I would say culture, and group attitude to other groups, which I guess CAN be culture any way, is FAR more relevant than race.

[Albion 69]

They do in Germany, Denmark, Austria, and Holland, among others, as well.

the problem with the U.K is your "Government" using the E.U as a "!get out of jail free" card for ANYTHING that they want to throw at you.

I am amased reading the news paper web sites the amount of things that are blamed on the E.U, such as not being able to send illegal immigrants straight home, when I spend two weeks a month doing JUST that. Italy even sendes other E.U member country citizens home!

But you keep getting told you can not do that.

Bloody RUBBISH!

The EU is a convenient bogey man used by many people for many different reasons. It is Her Majesty's Government that have left our borders porous to illegal immigration not the EU it is HMG that decided to grant work permits to the accession countries citizens first not realising what the (obvious ) consequences would be . Other EU member states seem to operate a far less rigid interpretation of EU directives/regs ...we copper bottom plate them . Saying that if we want true control of our borders membership of the EU is incompatible as we rely on the weakest link of the EU countries with external borders .

Italy are even (forcibly?) fingerprinting their Romany/Gypsy population to identify illegal immigrants ... :eek:

[Tacitus]

Exactly Albion.

Good post.

[Tete123]

The EU is a convenient bogey man used by many people for many different reasons. It is Her Majesty's Government that have left our borders porous to illegal immigration not the EU it is HMG that decided to grant work permits to the accession countries citizens first not realising what the (obvious ) consequences would be . Other EU member states seem to operate a far less rigid interpretation of EU directives/regs ...we copper bottom plate them . Saying that if we want true control of our borders membership of the EU is incompatible as we rely on the weakest link of the EU countries with external borders .

Italy are even (forcibly?) fingerprinting their Romany/Gypsy population to identify illegal immigrants ... :eek:

Good points Albion, it has to be noted though that the French/German governments are the biggest advocates of the EU constitution and are also in part the architects, they're less than rigid adherence to EU regulations often reeks of elitism. Take the Irish 'NO' vote and the plans to continue the ratification process. I agree completely though that the immigration issue precedes the EU debate, with the blame firmly on the shoulders of HMG.

[Tacitus]

it has to be noted though that the French/German governments are the biggest advocates of the EU constitution and are also in part the architects, they're less than rigid adherence to EU regulations often reeks of elitism.

There is another "trouble".

It is up to each country to INDIVIDUALY decide how the law will be enforced.

It is not Germany being "less than rigidly adherant to the law", it is Germany deciding that some one selling potatoes in pounds is not an offence that demands, (what was it two years in prison?) draconian action such as Britain did.

The same with recycling. Here it is a €60 fine, in Britain.... HUNDREDS of pounds from what the papers say.

And we are within our legal rights to do that.

[Trouble43]

There is another "trouble".

It is up to each country to INDIVIDUALY decide how the law will be enforced.

It is not Germany being "less than rigidly adherant to the law", it is Germany deciding that some one selling potatoes in pounds is not an offence that demands, (what was it two years in prison?) draconian action such as Britain did.

The same with recycling. Here it is a €60 fine, in Britain.... HUNDREDS of pounds from what the papers say.

And we are within our legal rights to do that.

Ah yeah but they can't ignore its the EU rules to say that if ONE country doesn't ratify the treaty is defunct. Yet the rest of the members (germany, france and wherever Barosso comes from) seem to want to ignore that rule now.

Why? Surely they have to be seen to be fair, even if they don't want to be?:confused:

[Tete123]

There is another "trouble".

It is up to each country to INDIVIDUALY decide how the law will be enforced.

It is not Germany being "less than rigidly adherant to the law", it is Germany deciding that some one selling potatoes in pounds is not an offence that demands, (what was it two years in prison?) draconian action such as Britain did.

The same with recycling. Here it is a €60 fine, in Britain.... HUNDREDS of pounds from what the papers say.

And we are within our legal rights to do that.

In these areas I grant you but I am talking overall. Apart from the call to continue the ratification and not accepting the Irish no vote, they fail to to adhere to the 'stability and growth pact' despite warnings which they have ignored and continue to ignore believing themselves to be above the constitution.

[Trouble43]

Apart from the call to continue the ratification and not accepting the Irish no vote, they fail to to adhere to the 'stability and growth pact' despite warnings which they have ignored and continue to ignore believing themselves to be above the constitution.

Quite agree there Tete. I find it infuriating that they brought in the 'all must ratify' rule, and then they are the ones deliberately ignoring it.

What's the point of instigating their own rules if they have no intention of observing them? They should've just kept quiet and then they wouldn't have looked so....well, the jury's out as to whether they look idiotic or arrogant.

[MarkMuses]

I would say culture, and group attitude to other groups, which I guess CAN be culture any way, is FAR more relevant than race.

I agree in essence. However, the reason I highlighted race is because it is used as a persistently poisonous and crippling factor in the wider ethnic/cultural debate. And so to ignore it is likely a mistake.

We should grasp the nettle so to speak, reminding ourselves that unlike culture, race, crucially is an argument involving what you are and not how you are. If it is to be discussed in a humanitarian context as it should, the PC gag must be lifted. Thought crimes legislation rolled back and academia no longer harrassed for debating it. We must risk offense as any self assured democracy should.

Why?

Because from what I have read on wikipedia, the present orthodoxy is by no means absolute and so to shout down dissent only breeds suspicion of politicisation of science. This ultimately undermines the weight of argument that race is effectively only a social construct in the eyes of the very people that need to be reached including myself.

Then whatever the scientific outcome, let's deal with the rest. Only the hardest of the hard hearted would be irreconsilable to fair play should any significance to race be established under truly open scientifically unmolested and politically democratic conditions.

Until then I suspect suspicion of foul play will persist.

[SickBritain]

In answer to the original thread topic, everyone is racist to a degree. Its a natural phenomenon. Take the English, Welsh and Scots. Take the various regions of tribal Afirica, even between states in the USA.

The loonie left like to make a big issue out of racism and cause more problems than the people they are trying to argue a case for. Black people are often intimidated by white doo gooders trying to speak on their behalf, I know this for fact through co-workers who are fed up with the lefties trying to please everyone.

Racism is a word often mis-used and the real definition of the word lost in political correct madness that causes more harm than good. I'm white but are not offended by being called white or white man. I'm a 'southerner' but not offended by being called so by a 'northerner'. Welsh in general are not patronised by being called Taffs or Taffies.

I'm afraid in today's cotton wool, nanny state infested loonie left world that's how it is, people are offended by the stupidest of words. Now we are being told that the word 'Chav' is some form of 'ism'

The loonie left fringe should be housed on the island of St.Kilda to fight out offending words and meaning between them. :D

[Citizen Smith]

In answer to the original thread topic, everyone is racist to a degree. Its a natural phenomenon. Take the English, Welsh and Scots. Take the various regions of tribal Afirica, even between states in the USA.

The loonie left like to make a big issue out of racism and cause more problems than the people they are trying to argue a case for. Black people are often intimidated by white doo gooders trying to speak on their behalf, I know this for fact through co-workers who are fed up with the lefties trying to please everyone.

Racism is a word often mis-used and the real definition of the word lost in political correct madness that causes more harm than good. I'm white but are not offended by being called white or white man. I'm a 'southerner' but not offended by being called so by a 'northerner'. Welsh in general are not patronised by being called Taffs or Taffies.

I'm afraid in today's cotton wool, nanny state infested loonie left world that's how it is, people are offended by the stupidest of words. Now we are being told that the word 'Chav' is some form of 'ism'

The loonie left fringe should be housed on the island of St.Kilda to fight out offending words and meaning between them. :D
So.... basically your saying that Racism was never a problem.... never harmed anyone... and Martin Luther king shouldn't have bothered. :rolleyes:

[Spartacus]

In answer to the original thread topic, everyone is racist to a degree. Its a natural phenomenon. Take the English, Welsh and Scots. Take the various regions of tribal Afirica, even between states in the USA.

I think that is a very simplistic analysis as it doesn't cover that fact that people of power and wealth have traditionally promoted racism to help achieve other agendas.
The "anti semitism" of Arabs alleged by the Israelis conveniently hides the fact ( and helps justify the response ) that the anti Israeli sentiment is because of the displacement/enslavement of Arabs by Israelis. In fact " anti semitism " has been, and still is, used by right wing Zionists to derail criticism of Israeli policies.
I mean do Arabs hate Israelis because they are Jewish or is it because they have stolen their land and forced them to live in open prisons?

The slavery days are the same. Do some blacks hate whites because they are white or because of the histories of colonialism and slavery ? Don't forget that the powerful elites who were raking it in because of the two were also the same people who controlled public opinion on black people in their own counties. Ya know the " noble savage " ," white mans burden ", " intelligence levels of domesticated animals " etc etc Well the promotion of all that made the task of African exploitation a whole lot easier.

We could take too the example of the Irish immigrant workers that came to England during the beginnings of the Industrial Revolution and later. They were the cheap manual labourers used to build canals and roads etc. Like all immigrant workers the task of the ruling elite is to maintain their cheap labour costs ( which mean bigger profits ) but at the same time marginalise the migrant workers through the promotion of racist attitudes towards them by the English workers who where in direct competition to them in the labour market.

We have a modern day example with the Polish. How many British people hated them before they where in direct competition with them in the labour market ?

There are many examples of the promotion of racism to further other agendas that help the rich and powerful. Racism , imo , owes most of its support to the wishes of the ruling elites who promote it to gain control and profit from resources both human and mineral.

[Albion 69]

I think that is a very simplistic analysis as it doesn't cover that fact that people of power and wealth have traditionally promoted racism to help achieve other agendas.
The "anti semitism" of Arabs alleged by the Israelis conveniently hides the fact ( and helps justify the response ) that the anti Israeli sentiment is because of the displacement/enslavement of Arabs by Israelis. In fact " anti semitism " has been, and still is, used by right wing Zionists to derail criticism of Israeli policies.
I mean do Arabs hate Israelis because they are Jewish or is it because they have stolen their land and forced them to live in open prisons?

The slavery days are the same. Do some blacks hate whites because they are white or because of the histories of colonialism and slavery ? Don't forget that the powerful elites who were raking it in because of the two were also the same people who controlled public opinion on black people in their own counties. Ya know the " noble savage " ," white mans burden ", " intelligence levels of domesticated animals " etc etc Well the promotion of all that made the task of African exploitation a whole lot easier.

We could take too the example of the Irish immigrant workers that came to England during the beginnings of the Industrial Revolution and later. They were the cheap manual labourers used to build canals and roads etc. Like all immigrant workers the task of the ruling elite is to maintain their cheap labour costs ( which mean bigger profits ) but at the same time marginalise the migrant workers through the promotion of racist attitudes towards them by the English workers who where in direct competition to them in the labour market.

We have a modern day example with the Polish. How many British people hated them before they where in direct competition with them in the labour market ?

There are many examples of the promotion of racism to further other agendas that help the rich and powerful. Racism , imo , owes most of its support to the wishes of the ruling elites who promote it to gain control and profit from resources both human and mineral.

Yours is a more complicated analysis but does that make it right ?

Did the 'The International Conference to Review the Global Vision of the Holocaust ' take place in Iran because of perceived injustices in Palestine or because there are many people with anti Semitic views in the Arab world ?

Was the white view of Africans a product of the elite or just our inherent belief at that time in history that we were superior to most other peoples ( including other white people from other nations ) was it more our natural suspicion of people who are different ?

I would think our racist attitudes to black people and the Irish was more to do with our inherent fear/suspicion of others , the elite may have exploited this in some cases but there was something there for them to exploit.

I do not know any person who hates the Poles for working here , but i know plenty who loathe the government for letting mass immigration take place with little planning ... our current elite do all they can to stamp out racism passing endless equality laws which often exacerbate the problem.

Racism is an ever present current that can be exploited for many reasons, the left have used it to stifle debate and control the agenda on many issues so yes you have a point the current Nu Lab elite exploit the race issue for all it's worth.

[Spartacus]

Yours is a more complicated analysis but does that make it right ?

Did the 'The International Conference to Review the Global Vision of the Holocaust ' take place in Iran because of perceived injustices in Palestine or because there are many people with anti Semitic views in the Arab world ?

Was the white view of Africans a product of the elite or just our inherent belief at that time in history that we were superior to most other peoples ( including other white people from other nations ) was it more our natural suspicion of people who are different ?

I would think our racist attitudes to black people and the Irish was more to do with our inherent fear/suspicion of others , the elite may have exploited this in some cases but there was something there for them to exploit.

I do not know any person who hates the Poles for working here , but i know plenty who loathe the government for letting mass immigration take place with little planning ... our current elite do all they can to stamp out racism passing endless equality laws which often exacerbate the problem.

Racism is an ever present current that can be exploited for many reasons, the left have used it to stifle debate and control the agenda on many issues so yes you have a point the current Nu Lab elite exploit the race issue for all it's worth.
hello Albion
My reply wasn't about who is right and who is wrong Albion 69 . It was about balance . When people say this or that is " natural " the alarm bells ringing here.
I think to undervalue the role racist indoctrination has played in race relations would give a false reading of what is " natural." Or certainly how much importance people place on it.

The debate about race relations at a time of large migrant worker immigration is long overdue but has been and is being suppressed by the people who are gaining most from the cheap labour and other human resources the people from other nations have to offer. New labour are their servants ( so would be all the other alternatives ) and so they will use a Left wing stance ( although they are not left wingers in practise) to stifle debate.
Many people will , in such frustrating circumstances , probably take their frustrations out along racial ethnic lines and turn on the immigrants. It is easier to take it out on them than deal with the reality of rule by the Business Party which is the driving force behind it all. I find that more frustrating personally.

[Albion 69]

hello Albion
My reply wasn't about who is right and who is wrong Albion 69 . It was about balance . When people say this or that is " natural " the alarm bells ringing here.
I think to undervalue the role racist indoctrination has played in race relations would give a false reading of what is " natural." Or certainly how much importance people place on it.

The debate about race relations at a time of large migrant worker immigration is long overdue but has been and is being suppressed by the people who are gaining most from the cheap labour and other human resources the people from other nations have to offer. New labour are their servants ( so would be all the other alternatives ) and so they will use a Left wing stance ( although they are not left wingers in practise) to stifle debate.
Many people will , in such frustrating circumstances , probably take their frustrations out along racial ethnic lines and turn on the immigrants. It is easier to take it out on them than deal with the reality of rule by the Business Party which is the driving force behind it all. I find that more frustrating personally.

Apologies .... i was feeling rather chippy , you make some good points but i still believe there is a latent racist tendency in most people which can be manipulated .Credit is due to the British people as they have shown great tolerance despite immense pressures , i do not think they will turn on the immigrants but they will expect the next government to deal with the excessive numbers that are here.

[Dunkirk]

hello Albion
My reply wasn't about who is right and who is wrong Albion 69 . It was about balance . When people say this or that is " natural " the alarm bells ringing here.
I think to undervalue the role racist indoctrination has played in race relations would give a false reading of what is " natural." Or certainly how much importance people place on it.

The debate about race relations at a time of large migrant worker immigration is long overdue but has been and is being suppressed by the people who are gaining most from the cheap labour and other human resources the people from other nations have to offer. New labour are their servants ( so would be all the other alternatives ) and so they will use a Left wing stance ( although they are not left wingers in practise) to stifle debate.
Many people will , in such frustrating circumstances , probably take their frustrations out along racial ethnic lines and turn on the immigrants. It is easier to take it out on them than deal with the reality of rule by the Business Party which is the driving force behind it all. I find that more frustrating personally.

I think that it does no good to pretend that there is a central committee of global capitalism that thinks up mechanisms such as racism to manipulate populations.

There are governments and government agencies and there are the boards of various multinational corporations. Sometimes their interests converge sometimes they clash. I don't recognise the existence of a Business Party as such but all parties will try to reconcile the interests of the state with the interests of big business.


We do want corporations to invest here to provide jobs and revenue. We do want British companies to do well and provide employment. Any party in government would be expected to create the conditions for the development and maintenance of a successful economy.

On the other hand where the interests of the British people clash with Business we need a government that can represent British interests.

I certainly do not oppose commonwealth immigration. I also think that Britain should play its part in providing assylum. What I don't feel is sustainable or particularly beneficial to this country is uncontrolled immigration and EU immigration from Eastern Europe.

I don't entirley disagree that the effects of this is to drive down the cost of labour. During the 60's and 70's this phenomenon was offset by ensuring that immigrants were welcome in trade unions. This is no longer such an easy option.

The Left establishment persue a policy of multiculturalism which has the effect of dividing rather than uniting people around common issues. Those who challenge multiculturalism and the political correctness that goes with it are characterised as racist...whether they are or not.

Historically, when opportunities have presented themselves the better organised nations and those involved in business have taken advantage. Sometimes the ethics of doing so have been ignored, sometimes with disasterous consequences for those unprepared.

Of course this needs to be recognised. Slavery was crule and a wicked waste of human life and should of course be condemned. But surely it does no good to stoke the fires of hatred. The decendants of those slaves living in Britain don't need White guilt they need to be part of a society where there is mutual respect.

Multiculturalism mitigates against building mutual respect and only fosters resentment.

[Spartacus]

I think that it does no good to pretend that there is a central committee of global capitalism that thinks up mechanisms such as racism to manipulate populations.

Hello Dunkirk,

Well " pretending " presupposes reality so I know you will probably not agree with much of the following. We have differing views on the same events , which is okay and healthy I think. I believe the Washington consensus is the global planner and wouldbe initiator of an all powerful global capitalist system. I mean they have said so........... all the New World Order stuff

I would first like to explain what I feel the " Business Party " actually is. I think it is the relationship between government and industrialists/business/corporations. A relationship in the same way there are/have been relationships between the government and the Kings and Queens. Or the relationship between government and the religious institutions past and present.

I will use the USA as an example ( it's easier because they only have two choices Republican or Democrat.

In my opinion they are slightly different factions of the same party. I'm not saying there are no differences because there are some differences.

Now if a Democratic presidential candidate promised sweeping social reforms and spending on public services and sort to protect labour security for the US worker , etc etc........................ he wouldn't be allowed to win. The Business Party would throw all their donations , their massive media control behind the campaign of the Republican candidate. And if that fails you can just buy/steal the election like George Bush backers have done consecutively.
The people with the money and the power pick the leader and will destroy any who slip through the net , again using their massive resources.

On Racism , its use is not something they have had to think up , it has worked in the past ( as I gave some examples of earlier ) with great success and remains a useful tool along with religious or cultural differences can and have been used with great success.

I mean look at the centre stage role of Islamaphobia is playing in the current phase in the War Against Terror. If you want to grab the resources of and gain control over them by invading the predominantely Muslim countries where they are situated, well hatred and misrepresentations of Muslims will make that a whole lot easier for the natives to accept . It really is as old as the hills for ruling elites to capitalize on such differences


There are governments and government agencies and there are the boards of various multinational corporations. Sometimes their interests converge sometimes they clash. I don't recognise the existence of a Business Party as such but all parties will try to reconcile the interests of the state with the interests of big business.

I agree but I think that that relationship/interaction is heavily in favour of business. And I also think that during the 80's , 90's and the present that the balance has shifted further away from goverment.

Recently it has been reported , though quietly , that of the top 100 economies in the world 52 are the turnover of Corporations. That's the first time they have ever achieved the majority status and there are no real signs of this trend altering.


We do want corporations to invest here to provide jobs and revenue. We do want British companies to do well and provide employment. Any party in government would be expected to create the conditions for the development and maintenance of a successful economy.

British business and corporations can be doing well and providing employment but they have no loyalties to the British people who are encouraged ( forced ?) to support them electorially and financially.

You will see what I mean when western business interests have a relative confidence in the stability of the former Eastern Bloc countries and they can fully exploit the cheap labour markets there. But there are already glaring examples of it in China and India amongst others.

On the other hand where the interests of the British people clash with Business we need a government that can represent British interests.

When you say " British interests " do you mean business or people ?

I think that the interests of the people come second in far too many cases. Look at the current situation with the labour market in Britain.

I certainly do not oppose commonwealth immigration. I also think that Britain should play its part in providing assylum. What I don't feel is sustainable or particularly beneficial to this country is uncontrolled immigration and EU immigration from Eastern Europe.

Well when they , the big business people, have stabilized the former Eastern Bloc labour markets and have achieved control over their resources I don't think we will see many immigrant workers coming here, they wouldn't have to all the jobs will be in their countries of origin.

I don't entirley disagree that the effects of this is to drive down the cost of labour. During the 60's and 70's this phenomenon was offset by ensuring that immigrants were welcome in trade unions. This is no longer such an easy option.

Well it was the business people who were behind the changes to the power of the unions , at the end of the day big business prefers a highly competitive labour market as it increases profitability.

The Left establishment persue a policy of multiculturalism which has the effect of dividing rather than uniting people around common issues. Those who challenge multiculturalism and the political correctness that goes with it are characterised as racist...whether they are or not.

I think the stance of left wing multiculturalists is due to their opposition to racism. But the cause of multiculturalism is down , not to the Left imho , but to the employing classes import of cheap foreign labour.

Of course this needs to be recognised. Slavery was crule and a wicked waste of human life and should of course be condemned. But surely it does no good to stoke the fires of hatred. The decendants of those slaves living in Britain don't need White guilt they need to be part of a society where there is mutual respect.

I can't recall mentioning slavery.............. but , yeah , it was a terrible time and I am not really a promoter of the white guilt thing. People of today were not involved in it. But those who still support the racism that was condusive to the acceptance of slavery are not helping anyone get past it either. Mutual respect is still some way off because of the constant agitation from above.

The worst thing for an ruling elite to have is the masses coming anywhere near mutual respect for eachother. It just undermines everything they worked for .

Well what services the ruling elites of our nations is division of the rest. Ya know the old " divide and conquer " is as popular as ever too. It is far easier for a small elite to control everyone else if everyone else are divided and caught up in all sorts of antagonisms and factions.

[Dunkirk]

Hello Spartacus,

I don't think that it takes a grounding in socialist or Marxist ideology to understand that the interests of global capitalism can be antagonistic to the people of any given country.

Even fairly conservative and patriotic commentators such as Peter Hitchens ( whose writings I greatly admire ) will lay the blame for a lot of society's ills at the door of big business.

The American dominance of the New World Order is highly contradictory. International, mainly American capital being invested into China has sparked the growth of an entity that has the potential to eclipse American economic dominance. The same is true of India.

These two countries house a huge percentage ( if not the majority ) of the World's population. They have enormous human resources, a highly flexible and increasingly educated labour force. This is coupled with the growth of its middle class intelligentsia.

Not only do they represent a massive pool of cheap labour but a huge market. Would anyone be surprised if the epicentre of the future World economy is located on an axis between New Delhi and Peking?

The Chinese military is set to become a formidable force in world politics backed by the countries economic success. I wouldn't have thought that this would have been the desired outcome for the architects of the New World Order.

Given the World economic situation I would have thought that the British "Business Party" would be attempting to make our economy more competitive.

I would have thought there would be a move towards much lower taxes given that the level of taxation is a driver of higher wage levels. I would also have thought that there would be further attacks on issues such as health & safety, maternity leave etc.

Instead we have a government that has increased taxation and therefore increased costs. We have a government that has introduced legal constraints on overtime, longer maternity leave, paternity leave and highly restrictive health & safety regulations.

Environmental measures have placed significant constraints on the profitability of service industries let alone manufacturing.

The main opposition party is not proposing any challenge to this state of affairs so the Lib/Lab/Con "Business Party" is not doing a particularly good job, either for business or for the long term interests of the British people.

Yes...British business isn't loyal to the British people and they already are moving jobs to Eastern Europe but they wouldn't be going there if costs weren't so high in Britain.

The ruling elite have placed this country in a position where we face uncertainty in relation to secure energy supplies. Even the continuing ability to generate electrical power is not guaranteed.