The Effects of Immigration

[Spartacus]

There is rightly much concern over the effects of the mass immigration witnessed by European nations of late and the , not surprising , rise in racial issues it has thrown into the air.





Some people think this is a design of the socialist agenda , I totally disagree and put the blame where it truly lies , Capitalism and its need for ever cheaper workforces , including immigration of cheap workforces.

Those who are against mass immigration are , to a large degree, hypocrites if they are in favour of a capitalist system , imho.

The following quote accurately , imo , sums up the recent demographic changes in Europe and the predictable ( and intended ) rising of tensions within our societies. We are entering a Fascist period and all the warning signs are there for all to see................... racism is one of its more obvious faces.


The Effect of Immigration

The large scale employer looking at greater profitability or the way to cut costs has several options open, the easiest and laziest being to cut wages. If the workers are well-organised they can resist this so there are two options open to the major capitalist. Either take the factories to where the cheap labour is or take the cheap labour to where the factories are. The first option entails great pollution, as a rule -- not that they ever care about that -- and in some cases they have to go into areas of political instability. It is cheaper to move the cheap labour.
Having thus encouraged immigration, wearing the financial hat as it were, the capitalist in the capacity of a right-wing politician, dons the political hat and denounces immigration. This has the advantage of setting worker against worker, fuelled by religious and/or racial antipathies which can persist for generations, and have the added bonus of inducing the worker to support the right wing electorally. It does the capitalist no harm to have a work force hated by those who surround them, or in fear of deportation if they step out of line. Nor does it harm the capitalist, in a political context, to have issues such as immigration replace the basic issue of the wage and monetary system. It only becomes harmful from that point of view when a fascist force such as Hitler's gains such armed might that it can ignore the wishes of the capitalists which gave them that power and strives for its own superiority.



Time to put the tin hats on and live in a Fascist society because that's what's on the horizon :(

[Dunkirk]

I don't doubt that there is a great deal of truth in what you say Spartacus. For example, feminist issues remained fairly marginal on the left until this movement became sinically exploited by big business and its need for labour.

Nevertheless, it is the politically correct Left that impose the sanctions against even mildly alleged sexist or racist speech.

I think that the neo-liberals on the Right and the cultural marxists on the Left have gaimed hegemony over their respective movements and have found that their interests have dovetailed.

I don't believe that there is a central committee of international capitalism as your unsourced quote seems to suggest. The manufacturing base of choice for big business is China and for high-tec services it's India so there is little need to import cheap labour to the UK.

The problem with capitalism is that its alternatives are far worse. The USSR was hardly a worker's paradice and the People's Republic exploits its own workforce for the benefit of the very capitalists it previously opposed.

[Thoreau]

I guess, I am a hypocrite. Much of what you say isn't erroneous, or farcical, but you fail to mention that with the right resolve and commitment those migrants workers who are flooding into Europe and destroying European culture, heritage and customs could build a bastian of capitalism on their own doorstep.

China and India were both exploited nations, China by the American's (the transcontinental railroads) and India by the British, but with hardwork and patience they will replace the United States as the two leading Superpowers of World Politics.

Those who come to Europe come to get their own piece of fortune from capitalism and therefore I do not have any sympathy for them when they are exploited, or even suffer from the very regime they wish to earn a living from. Greed & naivety fuel their desires and when you live by the sword, you ultimately die by the sword.

Europeans built their civilizations from the foundations and now it is being taken away from us, by those who have done nothing to help create the wealth that exists in Western Europe. It's sacrilege and unacceptable.

I don't blame Capitalism, I blame the Governments of Europe for their lack of cooperation with Multinationals and Corporations.

Mass immigration is not a necessity and never has been a necessity. It's left wing propaganda spurred on by white guilt and socialistic out pours of nonsensical 'equality'.

[Trumpeter]

The greatest immigration which has taken place over the last millineum has taken place on the continents of North and South America ,Australia,the racists fail to remember.These forrays resulted in the mass extermination of dark skinned people.The aborigines of Australia ,poisened by white contact and diseases,the Indian tribes of North And South America.What racist will say ,it happened so long ago that these events should be forgotten.
I do not know what would be the density of the European population as a result of this emigration but what has happened resulted in the wealtiest economy of North America trading with Western Europe.The so called building of European Economics was built around this period of destructive intervention.The whites may not think so but the blacks knew so because they were the victims.
The white racists will always want to dismiss the contribution of the oriental people,because it in their psyche to devalue any form of nonwhite contribution.To say that Europe hasnt benefited greatly ,and is one of the mainstay of their development since the industrial revolution ,is almost heresy.
As it was it was right for Europeans to annex the lands of nonwhites and murdered many on the translantic slave trade,in wars in India,slaughter of the aborigines of Australia,indians in north and south America ,it is right today for some reverse immigration to take place.
We have Australia which had one of the most racist immigation policy of the sixties and probably people, still not readily accepting people of a darker colour.Racism follows no logical path and it is one which can only be changed by
attitude and it starts in infancy,and develops in social interreactions.
There are not only white racist,there is also black racist,Chinese racist etc...
They all follow the illogical pattern

Trumpeter

[Thoreau]

Blacks are always the victims? White European's destroyed the Native American's way of life and the Blacks behave like it was their land and they suffered the worst atrocities. Black people's self pitty and bitterness is enough to make me join the Ku Klux Klan.

India, China, and other areas of European colonialism have all picked themselves up and moved on, except black people who are still moaning about an apology for slavery.

Black people can do no wrong it would seem. :rolleyes:

[Spartacus]

I don't doubt that there is a great deal of truth in what you say Spartacus. For example, feminist issues remained fairly marginal on the left until this movement became sinically exploited by big business and its need for labour.

Hello Dunkirk

As for the truth of the statement I think people only have to see what has happened in the last few years in this country. Once the Soviets collapsed their cheap labour could be imported once the States are " politically stable " and " business confidence" has been established the factories will move over there. The worst by far is yet to come.

As for the feminist movements I disagree with your first point , I think the Left and its universal sufferage stance has always been sincere. The very early Socialists raised the bar on the view of women in our society.
Your second point I agree with , big business funded and aided the feminist agenda. Women workers rights , pay issues ,sexist issues all the usual themes in debates on feminism didn't matter to the heads of industry and government. What mattered was the business and tax collection bonanza that would be the upshot of working women. Twice the competition for jobs and bigger tax revenues for government. And , most sinister , the access to indoctrinate the children left behind by parents now both working.

The statement I posted I think accurately reflects what happening now and I think that's why the first couple of replies to it largely see the logic in it. The problems in people accepting it as a truth are down to indoctrination by the system , imo.
People didn't care that the world was now known to be round , they were just ****ed off that it wasn't flat , if that makes sense

Nevertheless, it is the politically correct Left that impose the sanctions against even mildly alleged sexist or racist speech.

I don't think it is , I mean laws against speech and so on can only be implemented by the government. There has never been anything like a Left wing government in power in Britain , or Europe for that matter , ever. I accept that it is the Left that frowns on racist rhetoric etc but they don't make the rules. It's like the feminist thing , capitalists are sometimes quite happy to use left wing traits.
The capitalists who have gained from immigration can use the lefts stance on racism to stifle legitimate discourse on the changes to society. Hence the ,imo , bogus nature of the BNP.

I think that the neo-liberals on the Right and the cultural marxists on the Left have gaimed hegemony over their respective movements and have found that their interests have dovetailed.

Maybe ,its worth a debate of its own

I don't believe that there is a central committee of international capitalism as your unsourced quote seems to suggest. The manufacturing base of choice for big business is China and for high-tec services it's India so there is little need to import cheap labour to the UK.

I don't avoid sources , although they encourage a stereotyping of the information/point of view , I cam PM you the source and you will find it was written by a British socialist long before the current situation involving immigration arose and was based on the historical record concerning immigrations .

And the committee of capitalists are called corporations , the corporate world etc

The problem with capitalism is that its alternatives are far worse. The USSR was hardly a worker's paradice and the People's Republic exploits its own workforce for the benefit of the very capitalists it previously opposed.

Theres an old lefty saying that says " the people will feel no better off if the stick with which they are being beaten with is labelled the peoples stick "

I don't consider either the russians or chinese as socialist societies. Lenin took over the revolution in a coup and destroyed sytematically any semblence of socialist organisation and enforced state capitalism.China the same .

A much better example would be Cuba but that's a seperate debate. Why too do you think we only hear horror stories from Venezuela ? There is a real fear of a good example , in fact it is an automatic death sentence in the eyes of world capitalism and its supporters. Too many examples to mention here

[Trumpeter]

Hello T,
I dont know which oriface you are talking from but as i have said,racists follow no logical path.You started with an ambiguous sentance .I am not quite sure what was meant,if you were implying that blacks believed that America belonged to them after the exterminative of native Americans.You see what your forefathers did on our behalf and what you are saying that you are in agreement with that.
It was not the natives way of life which was destroyed,it was the natives skin and bones (life)which was obliterated.The African also paid with their lives,millions died and were thrown in the Atlantic Ocean.Many were beaten ,tortured to death in the fields for the European existence.The whiteman paid a small price in comparison.You will find it difficult to pay tribute to these people because the importance you attach to yourself would be watered down.Blacks are not a self pitying group.As a matter of fact, it is the nature of blacks even when we are wronged still open our minds for reconcillation.
The Americans got reparation from the Japanese and Germany after WW2, and it would have been good if this was extended to the black who were pivotal in helping to develop American and European economies.You are arguing against facts.
You said that China and India has moved on.How has this manifested in China and India as a whole?The developments have only reached a tiny proportion of thepopulationof these countries.For the vast majority nothing much has changed.It may in due course ,but stop bleating about something which has not yet happened.
There are people in life who lead and others follow,you are exhibiting the fear of an insecure whiteman.The African continent has been robbed and continue to be robbed by western governments and institutions for centuries and they still dont deem it fit to address this problem.The vast amount of African money which ends up in European banks could easily have helped to grow the economies of these countries but instead you are made benefactor through these dealings.
You only need a good brainwasher and an obliging baudience forbthe unreal to become real.
Money laundering of African money is still legal.RememberDikko,the Nigerian oil minister or Muboto of Zaire where did they take their illgotten gains.


Born a fool,die a fool,but dont live a fool.

[Thoreau]

Hello T,
I dont know which oriface you are talking from but as i have said,racists follow no logical path.You started with an ambiguous sentance .I am not quite sure what was meant,if you were implying that blacks believed that America belonged to them after the exterminative of native Americans.You see what your forefathers did on our behalf and what you are saying that you are in agreement with that.
It was not the natives way of life which was destroyed,it was the natives skin and bones (life)which was obliterated.The African also paid with their lives,millions died and were thrown in the Atlantic Ocean.Many were beaten ,tortured to death in the fields for the European existence.The whiteman paid a small price in comparison.You will find it difficult to pay tribute to these people because the importance you attach to yourself would be watered down.Blacks are not a self pitying group.As a matter of fact, it is the nature of blacks even when we are wronged still open our minds for reconcillation.
The Americans got reparation from the Japanese and Germany after WW2, and it would have been good if this was extended to the black who were pivotal in helping to develop American and European economies.You are arguing against facts.
You said that China and India has moved on.How has this manifested in China and India as a whole?The developments have only reached a tiny proportion of thepopulationof these countries.For the vast majority nothing much has changed.It may in due course ,but stop bleating about something which has not yet happened.
There are people in life who lead and others follow,you are exhibiting the fear of an insecure whiteman.The African continent has been robbed and continue to be robbed by western governments and institutions for centuries and they still dont deem it fit to address this problem.The vast amount of African money which ends up in European banks could easily have helped to grow the economies of these countries but instead you are made benefactor through these dealings.
You only need a good brainwasher and an obliging baudience forbthe unreal to become real.
Money laundering of African money is still legal.RememberDikko,the Nigerian oil minister or Muboto of Zaire where did they take their illgotten gains.


Born a fool,die a fool,but dont live a fool.

I gather you meant to type 'Orifice'? My post was one filled with sarcasm -- not meant to be taken overtly seriously, even if I do agree with the general consenus of what is written.

My sentence meant that all races (including Whites, as hard as it is for you to acknowledge) have suffered abuse in the past, not just Black people. However it is Black people who still scream the loudest and cry racist every chance they get. It becomes tiresome after a while.

I have immense pride in my forefathers created, we created the civilizations that you blacks and other ethnic minorities live in, if it wasn't for Europeans, contemporary society was be dissimilar to what it is today. Who invented most of the technology and instruments that are used everyday? Europeans. Advancements in Science, Music, Art, Literature have all been made by Caucasians.

Native American's were obliterated, you aren't erroneous with the statement you have cast and indeed the Australian Aboriginal people were, too. Indeed many African's did die during European Colonialism, but how many Caucasian's died in World War II to bring peace. I guarantee that if Hitler had won World War II, there would have been mass genocide against anyone who was not Caucasian. The White man is paying the ultimate price in comparison, we are being breeded out of existence by miscogenation, most European inner cities are full of Black people and other Ethnic Mino-jorties and many Caucasian's are murdered by their Black Counterparts, do don't worry. The White man is getting his comeuppance.

Arguing against facts? Black people were not instrumental in developing the wealth of European nations, it was those of the hierarchy that developed the wealth, Black Slaves were merely peasantry in the eyes of the Europeans.

In every country there will always be social class divides, divides in wealth, divides in intelligence, but China and India are becoming superpowers, they did so by using their initiative and working hard to ensure their economies improved, unlike a certain continent that despite being handed Billions of pounds worth of aid in around seventy years, still has problems with internal conflicts, famine and poverty. :rolleyes: Maybe this continent should take note?

Africa is being robbed? Well Europe is being swamped, so I guess it is only natural that Europe wants to put his hand in the cookie jar to help fund the millions of Black people who are pouring into Europe. As for African economies growing, how can they when Africa is a bleak continent filled with internal conflicts and dictatorships? In truth it is not Europeans or American's who are preventing Africa from being a major force in Economics -- it is the African's themselves.

[Spartacus]

I guess, I am a hypocrite. Much of what you say isn't erroneous, or farcical, but you fail to mention that with the right resolve and commitment those migrants workers who are flooding into Europe and destroying European culture, heritage and customs could build a bastian of capitalism on their own doorstep.

Well I really wish it were that simple Thoreau. There is a historical truism which is that the western nations are averse to any form of autonomy in the , let's say , darker coloured skin States . The IMF , World Bank , WTO etc are the institutions that make sure the Africam/Latin American ( and now eastern European ) nations depend/rely/submit to the wishes of western business interests.
Until these institutions are brought down and a really free and fair trade system introduced ( keynes " clearing union" ?) the poorer nations will never truly ever be able to develop their societies and achieve independence.

China and India were both exploited nations, China by the American's (the transcontinental railroads) and India by the British, but with hardwork and patience they will replace the United States as the two leading Superpowers of World Politics.

It is easy to generalize but there are very differing reasons why one thing fails in one place but works in another. It 's better , imho , to take each case on its own particular circumstances.
But it is also true that China and India have rejected the advice of western financial institutions and protect their fledgling economies , like the western nations themselves do , from unchecked foreign speculators.
Other nations are not in the same position to bargain with the powers that be

Europeans built their civilizations from the foundations and now it is being taken away from us, by those who have done nothing to help create the wealth that exists in Western Europe. It's sacrilege and unacceptable.


Well third world exploitation is the creator of western wealth by and large so people could argue that they have done something to create Euro/N American wealth but that's not really the issue, imo. Not in this debate anyway.
The issue is who is allowing all this to happen . Immigrants don't arrive in longboats , spears and swords shining in the sunlight , we have quotas from the EU to keep, a certain responsibility to the refugees our wars of corporate conquest yeild, etc
In short , why blame the immigrant worker for wanting to better their lives ( we have done the same things ) whilst ignoring the employers who are saving a packet on wages by hiring migrant workers?


I don't blame Capitalism, I blame the Governments of Europe for their lack of cooperation with Multinationals and Corporations.

It is the total capitulation of government to the interests of the Multinationals and Corporations that is the cause of our woes not the lack of cooperation , imo. The EU is a business venture and is avidly anti nationalist and anti democratic.
Mussolini thought that " Corporatism " was a better term than fascism to describe his....er.............adventures in Italy. " the perfect marriage between big business and State "

I wasn't joking about fascism on the horizon. There is an interesting statistic that reveals how much power corporations have acquired over the last two decades , in particular. It is that of the top 100 economies in the world today 52 are the turnover of certain corporations. That's the first time in history that they have held the majority .

Corporations love fascism , a look at the western corporate support for both Mussolini and Hitler is a good example to study. Western corporate investment in both countries was enormous prior to the hostilities of WW2 . It could be argued that it was one the elements that lead to hostilities in the first place

best wishes

[Spades]

.

China and India were both exploited nations, China by the American's (the transcontinental railroads) and India by the British, but with hardwork and patience they will replace the United States as the two leading Superpowers of World Politics.


Hmmm, China is heavily dependent on the US (and vice versa) so are you sure they will replace the US? I think maybe its too soon to tell.

[Thoreau]

Hmmm, China is heavily dependent on the US (and vice versa) so are you sure they will replace the US? I think maybe its too soon to tell.

Their industrial revolution is in over-drive, their economy is the fastest growing economy of any nation in the world, India is following slightly behind. Economists predict that within this century, China and India will replace the United States as the World's super-powers.

[Albion 69]

There is rightly much concern over the effects of the mass immigration witnessed by European nations of late and the , not surprising , rise in racial issues it has thrown into the air.

Some people think this is a design of the socialist agenda , I totally disagree and put the blame where it truly lies , Capitalism and its need for ever cheaper workforces , including immigration of cheap workforces.

Those who are against mass immigration are , to a large degree, hypocrites if they are in favour of a capitalist system , imho.

The following quote accurately , imo , sums up the recent demographic changes in Europe and the predictable ( and intended ) rising of tensions within our societies. We are entering a Fascist period and all the warning signs are there for all to see................... racism is one of its more obvious faces.

Time to put the tin hats on and live in a Fascist society because that's what's on the horizon :(

Very interesting points , i agree that cheap labour has been one of the main reasons that large scale immigration has been encouraged by the Government in recent years although the economic benefits of immigration have been grossly overstated . The Recent report from the House of Lords Economic Committee demolished the Governments claims in this area.

Migration Watch UK - Immigration is making matters worst (http://www.migrationwatchuk.com/papers/p_DailyMail_02Apr_08.asp)

I find it hard to believe in a cunning Socialist / Marxist plot BUT and it is a big but polling evidence suggests that Ethnic minorities are four times more likely to Vote Labour than Conservative, nearly twice as likely to vote Lib Dem than Conservative . Is it pure coincidence that the vast majority of immigrants that have come here since 1997 are from the ethnic minorities (current figure 68% it was much higher) and Labour and the Lib Dem's see no reason to have an upper limit on immigration ?

There is the issue of the EU accession countries which has introduced mainly large scale white immigration but i believe this was more cock up than design as the government projected around 13000 people would come here each year in reality it was well over 100,000. Recent reports have said more than half have returned home .

Not only did the Government totally screw up the figures it seemed oblivious to the predictable effects of largescale immigration,social tensions and the strain on services .Your fears about fascists/the far right are justified but this country has remained commendably resistant to their clarion calls the people want the immigration problem sorting the next (Tory?) Government had better do so or that Tin Hat you mention may well be needed.


http://image.guardian.co.uk/sys-files/Politics/documents/2005/03/21/ICMrace.pdf

More than 860 immigrants enter Britain EVERY DAY - and two-thirds come from outside EU | Mail Online (http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-513949/More-860-immigrants-enter-Britain-EVERY-DAY--thirds-come-outside-EU.html)

[Spartacus]

Very interesting points , i agree that cheap labour has been one of the main reasons that large scale immigration has been encouraged by the Government in recent years although the economic benefits of immigration have been grossly overstated . The Recent report from the House of Lords Economic Committee demolished the Governments claims in this area.

Hello Albion69,
I don't think many people would argue that the employers are the ones who have directly and greatly benefited from the import of cheap foreign labour. I think that that is the main reason for it but as you rightly say there are others
With regard to the governments overstating of its benefits it is worth remembering that the same situation is true in other realms of policy. If , for example ,we think about the governments promotion of the Iraq war it was the same. A grossly overstated claim that has since been demolished. The common denominator is that wealthy elites have prospered in both cases. British construction companies can undercut wages by employing immigrant workers at home and BP has a slice of the Iraqi oil rights/control abroad. All the rich people get richer and the rest fight battles for employment or fight Iraqis in Basra.
The British governments past and present base policy on the needs of big business. It doesn't even matter whether they are Tory , Old Labour , New Labour/old Tory ,Lib Dems all our wars and conflicts are to protect or acquire wealth power and influence for the top couple of percent of the population the evidence is overwhelming just not part of the mainstream information system for reasons that are not hard to fathom out

I find it hard to believe in a cunning Socialist / Marxist plot BUT and it is a big but polling evidence suggests that Ethnic minorities are four times more likely to Vote Labour than Conservative, nearly twice as likely to vote Lib Dem than Conservative . Is it pure coincidence that the vast majority of immigrants that have come here since 1997 are from the ethnic minorities (current figure 68% it was much higher) and Labour and the Lib Dem's see no reason to have an upper limit on immigration ?

It can't be a socialist plot because Labour and New Labour , though enjoying the support ( well under old labour at least ) from the socialist vote , are not and never have been a socialist party in the true meaning.

New Labour knew the immigrants would/will vote for them , they are the ones allowing them in :) whilst some other are stating that they will have them thrown out or something like that. Who would you vote for if you were in the same position ?


There is the issue of the EU accession countries which has introduced mainly large scale white immigration but i believe this was more cock up than design as the government projected around 13000 people would come here each year in reality it was well over 100,000. Recent reports have said more than half have returned home .

I don't really think of it as a cock up I think that they knew what would happen and the admitted cock up is in fact an obvious cop out. A disclaimer worth taking a little criticism over.

I think a very many of them , especially the Eastern Europeans , will be returning to their countres of origin and be able to live happily ever after on the wealth from their working trips to the West. And I don't blame them or feel any animosity towards them for it , that's what we would and have done in the past.
The Zlotty ( polish currency ) has risen four fold in its value to the pound but there is a much more worrying event yet to fully take hold. And that's when the big business heads have politically stabalized the Eastern European nations and follow the returning migrant workers over to Poland , Romania ,Slovakia etc etc themselves. What for British workers then ?

Not only did the Government totally screw up the figures it seemed oblivious to the predictable effects of largescale immigration,social tensions and the strain on services .Your fears about fascists/the far right are justified but this country has remained commendably resistant to their clarion calls the people want the immigration problem sorting the next (Tory?) Government had better do so or that Tin Hat you mention may well be needed.

I don't think they screw up I think they outright lie and a compliant corporate owned media isn't going to go out of its way to inform anyone about it.
I hope the Tories do get in next time around not because I am a fan , totally the opposite. I just think that with the Tories in power , and things staying more or less the same ( I don't think they will/can do very much to reverse the situation ) the whole political system in this country will be exposed for what it is which is this imho. Vote for who you want to but they will cede power to industry Multinationals ,Corporations etc and other wealthy elites. They are the true tailors of government policy

Best wishes

[Dunkirk]

Nevertheless, it is the politically correct Left that impose the sanctions against even mildly alleged sexist or racist speech.
I don't think it is , I mean laws against speech and so on can only be implemented by the government. There has never been anything like a Left wing government in power in Britain , or Europe for that matter , ever. I accept that it is the Left that frowns on racist rhetoric etc but they don't make the rules. It's like the feminist thing , capitalists are sometimes quite happy to use left wing traits.
The capitalists who have gained from immigration can use the lefts stance on racism to stifle legitimate discourse on the changes to society. Hence the ,imo , bogus nature of the BNP.
I think we should try to get away from the idea that the term "left wing" automatically means good, benevolent, liberty, a better standard of living, workers rights etc. I don't believe that it does.

New Labour are socially and culturally left wing. They may not talk about nationalisation and state ownership which leads people to believe they are right wing.

They do talk an awful lot about ethnicity, sexual orientation, cultural origins, religion....in the cultural sense, and gender. These IMO are issues that should not matter. When emphasised they are issues that serve to divide people rather than bind us together.

Multiculturalism has always been their approach to social cohesion and this is now mainstream among all the major parties. At one time anti-racism was about fairness, treating everyone the same regardless of skin colour. Now this stance is considered 'racist' by today's politically correct leftist agenda.

During the 50's, 60's and 70's the Labour movement dealt with the issue of immigration by encouraging immigrant workers to join Trade Unions thereby heading off their use as cheap labour.

These days when few outside the public sector are members of unions this is not so easy.

[Trumpeter]

When the economies of the world offer a fairly uniform chance and attainment to its citizens,immigration will not be a problem as presented because we would all be spoilt for choice where it is possible to live.
it may be a simplistic notion but I am sure it would pay divident.Human being have a tendency to know what is right but we all succom to the lazy option.
I do actually laugh at statements which pits one race as lazy in comparison to the other.All human have a lazy tendency,it is only necessity which often makes us move.

Trumpeter
Bleating the truth

[Spartacus]

I think we should try to get away from the idea that the term "left wing" automatically means good, benevolent, liberty, a better standard of living, workers rights etc. I don't believe that it does.

Hello Dunkirk,

I don't think we should loose sight of the fact that it puts people before profit either and offers , imo , a more humane system of socio-economic organisation.


New Labour are socially and culturally left wing. They may not talk about nationalisation and state ownership which leads people to believe they are right wing.

I don't think they are left wingers in any sense. They may take advantage of socialist ideals like anti racism but its use is for the benefit of the business community.
The stifling of debate concerning the immigration issue is a prime example of it , imo. We have working class people in direct wage competition to the immigrant workers and their legitimate concerns have been strangled by a PC straightjacket in the use of race/ethnicity and racist allegations.
As it is the employing class that have benefited from that conflict they will support the gag that continues their profitable circumstances , even if it traditionally has left wing associations. Labour are happy because it implies that they have some socialist type credibility ,which would otherwise be hard to find.
It happened with the womens movement. It is a left wing promotion that equality between sexes should be fought for but the business community could also support it because it allowed for massive competition in the labour market. Government could support it for the extra taxes they could glean from women working and so on.
In short if a socialist ideal serves the purposes of capitalist power and government revenue well it is far more likely to become a reality.

They do talk an awful lot about ethnicity, sexual orientation, cultural origins, religion....in the cultural sense, and gender. These IMO are issues that should not matter. When emphasised they are issues that serve to divide people rather than bind us together.

I disagree I think all the above and more have been the traditional tools of the ruling elites when it comes to dividing ( and thus controling ) the masses and that's why they are important

Multiculturalism has always been their approach to social cohesion and this is now mainstream among all the major parties. At one time anti-racism was about fairness, treating everyone the same regardless of skin colour. Now this stance is considered 'racist' by today's politically correct leftist agenda.

I agree and the fact that it is the mainstream thinking of all political parties should give an example of the balance of power between political parties and big business and also how narrow the political spectrum really is here in the industrial nations of the world.

If the New Labour government were in anyway left wing we would expect to see the revision of Thatcher legislation affecting the rights of striking workers, the nationalizing of industries , the strengthening of the public ownership of the health service and so on.
The fact the ooposite is true of New Labour should tell people that they are no where near a socialist government.
If people wish to see how a truly democratic left wing government should act they would be better studying Venezuelan society over the past 10 years

During the 50's, 60's and 70's the Labour movement dealt with the issue of immigration by encouraging immigrant workers to join Trade Unions thereby heading off their use as cheap labour.

These days when few outside the public sector are members of unions this is not so easy.

Well we were a lot more socialistically inclined in those days . The Thatcher era put an end to all of that and now we see how much of a problem weak trade unionism can be with regard to the issues surrounding immigrant working in an already competitive labour market.

[Trouble43]

Completely agree with you Spartacus. Indeed nulab have no right to the name 'Labour' anymore.