National Service.

[stevectaylor]

Should National Service be reintroduced?

[TheLegalEagle]

Yes.

National Service, if anything, would scare the youth of today and show them that in times of need, you actually have to work, and not rely on other people's generosity or charity, (e.g the dole) to live.

It would also scare them into showing them how tough the world is, and make them appreciate the work that our troops do abroad.

It may possibly even be a viable career choice for many of the youth, and thus gives us a bigger standing army.

[Albion 69]

Yes , i agree with most of the reasons TLE has given . National service may serve as a useful vehicle to instill some pride in this country. Showing a bit of patriotism should be encouraged not frowned upon/sneared at.

[pauli007001]

We should maintain a proffessional military staffed by well trained an well motivated individuals with self discipline and higher morals!To force the average teen of the modern era into the military would be cruel.
It would no be a good idea to give acces to weaponry to drug addled criminally minded self obsessed lazy wasters craving drugs and giros either!!
A better way to show respect to the troops would be not treating them like crap even when they are no longer viable human being as a result of injury(NULAB attitude my experience).Our military is staffed by the very best our land has to offer.Which is why they are so hated by the nastiest elements of selfish greedy civvy society!!!Tony Blair for instance!!!

[Pourquoi?]

"National Service, if anything, would scare the youth of today"

And you think that's a good thing? ;)

"and show them that in times of need, you actually have to work, and not rely on other people's generosity or charity, (e.g the dole) to live."

I think the vast majority already know that, and taking the whole population out of education or work to stuff them into military training seems rather counter-productive in that regard.

"It would also scare them into showing them how tough the world is, and make them appreciate the work that our troops do abroad. "

Again, if anything you're just extending school - a much different school, but a situation where they don't have to worry about things like getting a job, paying a mortgage or whatever. As for what troops do abroad, is that not really irrelevant? Whatever troops do do is what's important, not what the youth of a country think of them.

"It may possibly even be a viable career choice for many of the youth, and thus gives us a bigger standing army. "

And we should be spending more money of defence as opposed to education and health? Ok... just don't complain about taxes being too high, or the state of the NHS.

[Gregor Johnston]

There are many more benefits to National Service than you appear to acknowledge, including developing self-respect and respect for authority which is so sadly lacking in many young people now. Crime and disorder are rife in many of our inner cities precisely because youngsters often lack any direction to their existence and a period of national service can help fill the vaccuum in their lives as well as being an excellent career choice in itself. I do not accept the point that it is a poor substitute for education. Education is important too and the two are not mutually exclusive ! I speak from personal experience having spent as a teenager eighteen months in the forces which I enjoyed and found rewarding before returning to further education to study for my degree.

[Pourquoi?]

"There are many more benefits to National Service than you appear to acknowledge,"

I am acknowledging 'benefits' others have suggested.

"including developing self-respect and respect for authority which is so sadly lacking in many young people now."

Self-respect can be given through many ways - not just through enlisting all young people into service. As for respect for authority... well, let's just say I don't regard that as a benefit.

"Crime and disorder are rife in many of our inner cities precisely because youngsters often lack any direction to their existence"

It's a little bit more complex than that.

"and a period of national service can help fill the vaccuum in their lives as well as being an excellent career choice in itself."

Many things can fulfill that vacuum, and, as a career path, I think many young people are already enticed into the armed services by the glamour of guns and war - only to find reality - and death - to be unfortunate side effects.

"Education is important too and the two are not mutually exclusive "

Neither are many other potential roots for young people. These ways can also be economically benefitial and not require the ultimate sacrifice.

"I speak from personal experience having spent as a teenager eighteen months in the forces which I enjoyed and found rewarding before returning to further education to study for my degree."

Excellant, good for you. I chose to do an Open University course, a football refereeing course and joined a band during my gap year. Each to their own. However if I was to enlisted into a service against my will... then we would have a problem.

[Borderscot]

We should maintain a professional military staffed by well trained an well motivated individuals with self discipline and higher morals!To force the average teen of the modern era into the military would be cruel.
It would no be a good idea to give acces to weaponry to drug addled criminally minded self obsessed lazy wasters craving drugs and giros either!!
A better way to show respect to the troops would be not treating them like crap even when they are no longer viable human being as a result of injury(NULAB attitude my experience).Our military is staffed by the very best our land has to offer.Which is why they are so hated by the nastiest elements of selfish greedy civvy society!!!Tony Blair for instance!!!

I have to say that I believe you are absolutely correct. Having served in the Household Division where standards are extremely high, introducing conscripts into the ranks would cause nothing but a distraction and take highly skilled soldiers away from front line duties. National Servicemen did a valiant job in the days of the cold war when high numbers of troops were required to meet all the many responsibilities the UK had to deal with then, but the armed forces of today are trained to a very much higher standard which constantly requires further training and there is no spare manpower around to take on further tasks like training National Servicemen. Those who try and state otherwise I suggest have little or no knowledge of the present day services.

[Trystan]

No, it shouldn't. Freedom of choice for the win. If you don't like it, tough shit. There's no way you'll have me fighting for jolly old England. Sorry. If you want to "fight for your country", I'm sure there's a place for you in the TA. :)

It would also scare them into showing them how tough the world is, and make them appreciate the work that our troops do abroad.

You want to scare young people who've grown up in gang-ridden estates how "though" the world is? Aye and I'm sure the conservatives are the ones to do it. I'm sure David Cameron had a tough time at Eaton. :rolleyes:

Also, if you want people to respect the troops abroad, I would suggest sending them into a legitimate, sincere conflict.

[JAMC]

No. It would cost millions in additional logistics, dilute the quality of our armed forces, and accomplish very little in terms of improving wider society.

I don't believe the best way to deal with "yob culture" is to package them off to a warzone and hope they don't come back.

[Winston]

I have heard many people suggest National service as a way of dealing with hoodies, yobs, gangs etc. but wouldn't it just train this type of people to go round in a gang and kill people. Also, many ex-forces find it hard reintegrating into civvy life when they leave and do not know how to make decisions for themselves.

[ArminasAnarchy]

Yes.

National Service, if anything, would scare the youth of today and show them that in times of need, you actually have to work, and not rely on other people's generosity or charity, (e.g the dole) to live.

It would also scare them into showing them how tough the world is, and make them appreciate the work that our troops do abroad.

It may possibly even be a viable career choice for many of the youth, and thus gives us a bigger standing army.

No. Why do the youths of today need scaring? O_o. Incidentally, have you ever been in the Army? If not, why would you subject someone to an experience you yourself neglect to undertake?
In the Army, your every need is provided for you, you're given housing, food, clothes, your equipment. You're still relying on someone else to pay your way.
The work our troops do abroad as far as I'm concerned for the most part is illegal. We've no right to be in Iraq, or to maintain bases in countries such as Germany. You can't force people to respect them by shoving that respect down their throat.
...Not to mention how costly it would be, how unpopular amongst parents and children, and how it takes away choice.

[ArminasAnarchy]

Yes , i agree with most of the reasons TLE has given . National service may serve as a useful vehicle to instill some pride in this country. Showing a bit of patriotism should be encouraged not frowned upon/sneared at.

Patriotism is a form of discrimination and therefore should NOT be encouraged. I don't think you can force respect on people, as I've said before.

[ArminasAnarchy]

There are many more benefits to National Service than you appear to acknowledge, including developing self-respect and respect for authority which is so sadly lacking in many young people now. Crime and disorder are rife in many of our inner cities precisely because youngsters often lack any direction to their existence and a period of national service can help fill the vaccuum in their lives as well as being an excellent career choice in itself. I do not accept the point that it is a poor substitute for education. Education is important too and the two are not mutually exclusive ! I speak from personal experience having spent as a teenager eighteen months in the forces which I enjoyed and found rewarding before returning to further education to study for my degree.

National Service is not the only way that one can develop self respect, and definitely not the best. Why does a youth need a respect for authority? Perhaps this was a misphrasing, I'd have agreed with you if you'd had said a respect for people. I think forcing our youths to be submissive does not instil good values or a respect for self, which contradicts what you've just said. How can you respect yourself if it's constantly emphasised that you are at the bottom of the chain and that there are people above you?
Crime in the cities is not just caused by youths, infact I think you will find that the large majority of offenders will be >25, not <. It's also hardly fair to make every other youngster pay for the mistakes of a few.
You say national service and education are NOT mutually exclusive, but of course they are! You delay one or the other. Lets say you choose to stay on at Uni (as my grandfather did) and delay your national service. By then you'll be older and should have learnt your lesson through life experience so your previous arguments are now worthless. If you delay the education, then you may not be entitled to certain benefits (ie Young Person's Railcard, you need to be aged 16-25 to get the third off on the trains). It will also put you at a serious disadvantage socially as most other people will be younger than you and you may struggle to relate. In terms of a job, you'll be older and so you won't reach the top level of employment until later on in your life and will therefore have less time at the top to enjoy.
Correct?

[Lord Lucan]

As an ex soldier I can without fear of contradiction from my former colleauges tell you that the armed forces do not want conscription. I remember very well when on exercise or maneuvers with Euro troops it was easy to spot the conscript soldier because he didn't want to be there. Any government can force people to join the army but they can not force them to be good soldiers. The army should not be responsible for teaching our youth respect and discipline, thats down to parents and the government (and yes I know, they are both failing)

[Lord Lucan]

I have heard many people suggest National service as a way of dealing with hoodies, yobs, gangs etc. but wouldn't it just train this type of people to go round in a gang and kill people. Also, many ex-forces find it hard reintegrating into civvy life when they leave and do not know how to make decisions for themselves.

I agree the transition from soldier to civy can be difficult, particularly if the soldier has served for a long time however, your assertion that soldiers do not know how to make decisions is palpable nonsense, as is your description of soldiers as people who go round in a gang and kill people.

[Lord Lucan]

No. Why do the youths of today need scaring? O_o. Incidentally, have you ever been in the Army? If not, why would you subject someone to an experience you yourself neglect to undertake?
In the Army, your every need is provided for you, you're given housing, food, clothes, your equipment. You're still relying on someone else to pay your way.
The work our troops do abroad as far as I'm concerned for the most part is illegal. We've no right to be in Iraq, or to maintain bases in countries such as Germany. You can't force people to respect them by shoving that respect down their throat.
...Not to mention how costly it would be, how unpopular amongst parents and children, and how it takes away choice.

Clearly you know very little if anything about the army.

Quote...In the Army, your every need is provided for you, you're given housing, food, clothes, your equipment. You're still relying on someone else to pay your way.

This utopian army you speak of sounds wonderful, sadly it's no more than a figment of your immagination. When I joined the army our training platoon numbered 44 recruits, at the end of training there were just 21 of us left.

We were not given housing, we lived in very basic accomodation blocks and were charged rent. Accomodation was not free as a lot of people in civy street seem to think. That goes for food as well, yes we had a mess or cookhouse where we ate three times a day and generally speaking the food was good but nothing was "given" each month a food & accomodation charge was deducted from our pay. Of course we were issued with unifoms and equipment, and if any bit of that kit was damaged or lost we were billed for it.

Recruits are taught to think on their feet and make quick decisions in highly charged situations. They are deliberately put under a lot of pressure to weed out the people who shouldn't be there. They work very hard and the recruits who make it to the end of training are rewarded with the knowledge that they have just completed a course of training that the vast majority of people in civy street couldn't hope to pass and they should be rightly proud of themselves.

I wouldn't expect you to understand.

[Expounder]

Clearly you know very little if anything about the army.

Quote...In the Army, your every need is provided for you, you're given housing, food, clothes, your equipment. You're still relying on someone else to pay your way.

This utopian army you speak of sounds wonderful, sadly it's no more than a figment of your immagination. When I joined the army our training platoon numbered 44 recruits, at the end of training there were just 21 of us left.

We were not given housing, we lived in very basic accomodation blocks and were charged rent. Accomodation was not free as a lot of people in civy street seem to think. That goes for food as well, yes we had a mess or cookhouse where we ate three times a day and generally speaking the food was good but nothing was "given" each month a food & accomodation charge was deducted from our pay. Of course we were issued with unifoms and equipment, and if any bit of that kit was damaged or lost we were billed for it.

Recruits are taught to think on their feet and make quick decisions in highly charged situations. They are deliberately put under a lot of pressure to weed out the people who shouldn't be there. They work very hard and the recruits who make it to the end of training are rewarded with the knowledge that they have just completed a course of training that the vast majority of people in civy street couldn't hope to pass and they should be rightly proud of themselves.

I wouldn't expect you to understand.


Being one of the first National Service recruits called up in 1946 I can say with certainty it wouldn't work.

In those days there was no political correctness and a fundimental acceptance by most recruits to respect and obey orders or else, and put up, and accept what life in the forces threw at us . We were on occassions subjected to conditions that would today bring writs against the MOD.

It would be too expensive to introduce, and in todays climate impossible to operate,it's a different it's age and a different mindset . Any one who watched the TV program Bad Lads Army which was a re-enactment of National Service life by some young offenders who volunteered to take part saw how hard it would be to hone reluctant recruits into a military unit.

But most important were the sanctions and punshments that could be used against non co-operative recruits, which were the same that existed during WW2 for which there was no appeal against. Confined to barracks, up to 28 days detention in the guard house,which meant on the parade ground every day with full service marching order till you dropped, or Courts Marshall with detention in military prison with unofficial beatings if you didn't behave. Believe me no body would want to go there.

In those days they could enforce sanctions to keep recruits in line
Thats why National Service worked. Today there are very few effective sanctions to keep any malcontents in line thats why it wouldn't work. :mad:

[Lord Lucan]

Yes , i agree with most of the reasons TLE has given . National service may serve as a useful vehicle to instill some pride in this country. Showing a bit of patriotism should be encouraged not frowned upon/sneared at.

Being patriotic should indeed be encouraged, as should flying our flag at every opportunity. Sadly that's not going to happen, not until this bunch of self serving politically correct myopic traitors are thrown out of government.

(and I say that as an ex life-long card carrying member and supporter of the Labour party)

[Marxist Nutter]

I do not know enough about the army to really comment. All I know is I was forced to join the cadets at school. I was and still am anti the Queen and would never fight anybody in her name. I said this repeatably in cadets. I questioned authority, told them not to shout at me, made it clear that if they used any violence against me I would return it in kind. (At the time was being ritualistically beaten at boarding school anyway so had no fear of being beaten up - would have made little difference to me). I did everything to sabotage exercises, until I was thrown out.

Does anybody think the army would benefit from people like me?

My opinion is the modern British Army is respected for its professionalism; recruiting a lot of angry teenagers or people like me that do not approve of the system could only undermine the respect the Army has earned, and lead to division within the ranks, however this is just my view

[Lord Lucan]

Patriotism is a form of discrimination and therefore should NOT be encouraged. I don't think you can force respect on people, as I've said before.

Patriotism is NOT a form of discrimination! Patriotism should be encouraged from cradle to garve. Being patriotic has absolutely nothing to do with forcing respect on people, indeed being patriotic is about self respect, perhaps if we weren't encouraged to be so damned politically correct we might see a bit more patriotism. It's incredible that the UK is the only country in the world where the national flag is considered racist, what on earth has happened to this once great country.

[Marxist Nutter]

Patriotism is NOT a form of discrimination! Patriotism should be encouraged from cradle to garve. Being patriotic has absolutely nothing to do with forcing respect on people, indeed being patriotic is about self respect, perhaps if we weren't encouraged to be so damned politically correct we might see a bit more patriotism. It's incredible that the UK is the only country in the world where the national flag is considered racist, what on earth has happened to this once great country.

I tend to agree with AA, as patriotism is always dependent on an 'other' (which is often demonised) for it's own idenity. Well this is true of nationalism at least. Nationalism is an 'infantile disease' according to Einstein. I guess my question is this. How is patriotism different from nationalism?

If you define patriotism as love for the PEOPLE of your country then I guess I am all for it. But I don't believe in flag waving, to be honest.

[Lord Lucan]

I do not know enough about the army to really comment. All I know is I was forced to join the cadets at school. I was and still am anti the Queen and would never fight anybody in her name. I said this repeatably in cadets. I questioned authority, told them not to shout at me, made it clear that if they used any violence against me I would return it in kind. (At the time was being ritualistically beaten at boarding school anyway so had no fear of being beaten up - would have made little difference to me). I did everything to sabotage exercises, until I was thrown out.

Does anybody think the army would benefit from people like me?

My opinion is the modern British Army is respected for its professionalism; recruiting a lot of angry teenagers or people like me that do not approve of the system could only undermine the respect the Army has earned, and lead to division within the ranks, however this is just my view

You may be surprised, in fact you sound like perfect material for recce platoon, people never know what they are capable of. All sorts of people join the army for all sorts of reasons from well heeled public school boys to rough & ready lads from council estates, after six months basic training they are the best of mates and you can not tell them apart. Joining the army has nothing to do with loyalty to the Queen, yes we all took the oath of allegianace and it may well have meant something to some of the lads but it's not until the brown stuff hits the fan that you realise you are not fighting for a head of state or figurehead or any ideology, it's at this stage you realise that you are fighting for your mates. The notion of fighting for Queen & country is for most, a romantic myth.

[Lord Lucan]

I tend to agree with AA, as patriotism is always dependent on an 'other' (which is often demonised) for it's own idenity. Well this is true of nationalism at least. Nationalism is an 'infantile disease' according to Einstein. I guess my question is this. How is patriotism different from nationalism?

If you define patriotism as love for the PEOPLE of your country then I guess I am all for it. But I don't believe in flag waving, to be honest.

I cant quote Einstein but I can say that for me patriotism is/was being proud of my country, my unit and my mates. That feeling of pride was never felt more than when on parade or excercise or indeed at war with troops from another country, we were the best, the British Army were/are the best and everyone knew that. That sense of pride is lost when you leave the army, I still have it within me but it saddens me when I look around and realise that my civilian colleauges haven't a clue what real pride is, most of them don't know how to polish a pair of shoes for christ sake.

[Nicholas]

I tend to agree with AA, as patriotism is always dependent on an 'other' (which is often demonised) for it's own idenity. Well this is true of nationalism at least. Nationalism is an 'infantile disease' according to Einstein. I guess my question is this. How is patriotism different from nationalism?

If you define patriotism as love for the PEOPLE of your country then I guess I am all for it. But I don't believe in flag waving, to be honest.


Patriotism is the love of ones own nation and people. Is it possible to love ones own and not hate another? Yes it dam well is.

[Marxist Nutter]

Patriotism is the love of ones own nation and people. Is it possible to love ones own and not hate another? Yes it dam well is.

Yes of course it is. I hate my country as a historical actor; but I love many of the people. To be honest I have much more love for my local community than for the UK as a whole. The thing with me is I feel too much shame about what this country has done in the past.

[Lord Lucan]

Yes of course it is. I hate my country as a historical actor; but I love many of the people. To be honest I have much more love for my local community than for the UK as a whole. The thing with me is I feel too much shame about what this country has done in the past.


Are you talking about the Government putting an end to slavery in Britain and her dominions, or perhaps you are ashamed of Trafalgar, or the fact that the industrial revolution made Britain the worlds first superpower, what about the Battle of Britain, had we lost that one the authorities would have had you shot for saying you feel shame for your country.

Marxist Nutter, I obviously don't know you but I meet people like you every day. I'm not exactly Alan Wicker but I've lived in one or two countries and although I enjoyed my time away I always knew I would at some point come home to England, and that isn't romantic nonsense. To understand how bad or good a country is you have to know what other countries are like and believe me you can do a damned sight worse than the UK.

[pauli007001]

Being one of the first National Service recruits called up in 1946 I can say with certainty it wouldn't work.

In those days there was no political correctness and a fundimental acceptance by most recruits to respect and obey orders or else, and put up, and accept what life in the forces threw at us . We were on occassions subjected to conditions that would today bring writs against the MOD.

It would be too expensive to introduce, and in todays climate impossible to operate,it's a different it's age and a different mindset . Any one who watched the TV program Bad Lads Army which was a re-enactment of National Service life by some young offenders who volunteered to take part saw how hard it would be to hone reluctant recruits into a military unit.

But most important were the sanctions and punshments that could be used against non co-operative recruits, which were the same that existed during WW2 for which there was no appeal against. Confined to barracks, up to 28 days detention in the guard house,which meant on the parade ground every day with full service marching order till you dropped, or Courts Marshall with detention in military prison with unofficial beatings if you didn't behave. Believe me no body would want to go there.

In those days they could enforce sanctions to keep recruits in line
Thats why National Service worked. Today there are very few effective sanctions to keep any malcontents in line thats why it wouldn't work. :mad:

National service cannot work,it didnt work well before,it will not now!
We should maintain a proffessional volounteer military trained to the Highest standards and equipped to do their job.I do not think any government has the right to demand its people make a sacrifice in any way,choice is freedom!!!!

[Marxist Nutter]

Are you talking about the Government putting an end to slavery in Britain and her dominions, or perhaps you are ashamed of Trafalgar, or the fact that the industrial revolution made Britain the worlds first superpower, what about the Battle of Britain, had we lost that one the authorities would have had you shot for saying you feel shame for your country.

Marxist Nutter, I obviously don't know you but I meet people like you every day. I'm not exactly Alan Wicker but I've lived in one or two countries and although I enjoyed my time away I always knew I would at some point come home to England, and that isn't romantic nonsense. To understand how bad or good a country is you have to know what other countries are like and believe me you can do a damned sight worse than the UK.

As a place to live the Uk aint bad but I've been to better countries as I have also been to worse.

How can you be proud of putting an end to slavery? Does that make up for the years we traded in slaves and all those who died on our ships. That really did seem like a rather odd remark! Industrial revolution - you mean child labour and thousands starving while a few got rich off their work. I could go on..and have else where on this forum...


Oh an maybe we have met..U never know ;)

[Borderscot]

I am not in favour of National service being introduced not do i believe the armed forces are also. Why, because, we now have highly skilled forces who are trained to a standard away above what could be achieved with services personnel only there for a limited time. I very mucg doubt if the public would accept serving for a 2 years period which was the case before. Nor do i think that the professional in our armed services could be bother with people serving alongside who did not want to be there as this would also lead to trouble.

In the days of National service, we were facing a completely different senario where large numbers of trops were necessary to man our wide range of commitments. We now live in the days of specialists and professionals and we have excellent people. To introduce conscription, I believe would lead to more problems than would be solved.

[pauli007001]

As a place to live the Uk aint bad but I've been to better countries as I have also been to worse.

How can you be proud of putting an end to slavery? Does that make up for the years we traded in slaves and all those who died on our ships. That really did seem like a rather odd remark! Industrial revolution - you mean child labour and thousands starving while a few got rich off their work. I could go on..and have else where on this forum...


Oh an maybe we have met..U never know ;)


The Britan you describe (the one you hate)dosent exist anymore,neither do the people,a nation is its people and its culture.To hate a nation is in fact to hate its people.To hate a people for that which they didnt do is slightly insane!!!!!For example Kids in school being told by their (left whinge soft soaper touchy feely)teachers that they must feel guilty about Slavery,pah!!!In that case i want an apology from africans and demand that they apologise for inventing the trade and for gathering the blonde haired blue eyed males from both mainland europe and the British isles into slave boats(many of them dying)to be sold to the african slave traders customers often to be used a sex slaves!!!!!!I will never apologise for slavery,i never owned a slave,my kids will never apologise for slavery,nor will they accept an apology from a white kid,slavery is dead,chances are none of us have any ancestors that owned slaves,that was a righ mans luxuary,my family were Irish and Scottish Peasant stock(more likely to be slaves than slavers during the slave trade!!!!!Where is my need to feel guilt???Get real!!!!!I love the UK,all of it and i do fly the flag of ST george on the 23rd April and this coming sunday i will fly the Saltaire of St Andrew,i hope it offends all those who hate the UK.

As for national service,keep the Army Proffessional,they are the Best,best trained,best motivated and the best teamworkers.!!!!!!

[Marxist Nutter]

The Britan you describe (the one you hate)dosent exist anymore,neither do the people,a nation is its people and its culture.To hate a nation is in fact to hate its people.To hate a people for that which they didnt do is slightly insane!!!!!For example Kids in school being told by their (left whinge soft soaper touchy feely)teachers that they must feel guilty about Slavery,pah!!!In that case i want an apology from africans and demand that they apologise for inventing the trade and for gathering the blonde haired blue eyed males from both mainland europe and the British isles into slave boats(many of them dying)to be sold to the african slave traders customers often to be used a sex slaves!!!!!!I will never apologise for slavery,i never owned a slave,my kids will never apologise for slavery,nor will they accept an apology from a white kid,slavery is dead,chances are none of us have any ancestors that owned slaves,that was a righ mans luxuary,my family were Irish and Scottish Peasant stock(more likely to be slaves than slavers during the slave trade!!!!!Where is my need to feel guilt???Get real!!!!!I love the UK,all of it and i do fly the flag of ST george on the 23rd April and this coming sunday i will fly the Saltaire of St Andrew,i hope it offends all those who hate the UK.

As for national service,keep the Army Proffessional,they are the Best,best trained,best motivated and the best teamworkers.!!!!!!

Never said I hated Britain. I said I am not proud of many things Britain has done in the past. There is quite a difference.

What i actually said about Britain was this:
To be honest I think that the UK is one of the best places to live (apart from the weather ;)) in the world. I love British people and think on the whole we are a kind and tolerant people with some exceptions.

However I am also aware that as a Brit I have enjoyed many opportunities for which i am both grateful and ashamed. Much of the wealth of this country was build on slavery and oppression. Much of the opportunity and freedom I enjoy is due to us raping the resources of the planet and other nations. I am of the opinion (and I understand many disagree) that historically our country has been the source of more ill than good, and for this I feel some shame.

However all in all, I like the fact we are vibrant multicultural country that people form all over the world wish to live in. I love the British wit (often well displayed by Albion69 on this forum), and our courage (generally speaking ) in the face of adversity. So it is a mixed bag. I do have pride in my country (more the people of my country who I know and call friends) but also shame as well.SOURCE (http://www.politic.co.uk/bnp/11073-british-pride.html#post52132)

I chose not to cite all the times you have condemned and belittled this nation in opposition to the USA as you have done it so many times and on so many threads there seems little point pointing it out.

[pauli007001]

Never said I hated Britain. I said I am not proud of many things Britain has done in the past. There is quite a difference.

What i actually said about Britain was this:
SOURCE (http://www.politic.co.uk/bnp/11073-british-pride.html#post52132)

I chose not to cite all the times you have condemned and belittled this nation in opposition to the USA as you have done it so many times and on so many threads there seems little point pointing it out.


Actually i am surprised that you continue with that lie!I have ONLY criticised the governments policies,but again if to criticise the government is an attack on the Nation and all its people(or to criticise the Leader is an attack on all the people and the nation)what does that make your political stance equal to.Get real tell the truth Slavery NEVER HAPPENED as you and the rest of the Left describe it,Britain Should not live in a constant state of remorse for acts that have nothing to do with it,I have ALWAYS spoken out for the rights and equality of all british people,how on earth is that anti British?I will proudly State that i am anti NULAB as to me they are the destruction of the land i love(so much that i went and did the Bidding of it to the detriment of my physical health and to the point where even today ten years later i am haunted by my experiences in the Balkans,do you want me to go into specifics???????or like NULAB do you not give a shit about those who do your bidding????????I am sick and tired of you bloody sociualista and your attacks on people who are patriotic when it is youe sole desire as a political entity to bring about an end to the Nation State and become a Big EUSSR utopia)!!!!!!!!!!!You call me Anti British because i point how you who follow the oppressive rule of marx are actually dedicated to the destruction of Britain.I am not anti British i am a british patriot,all socialists are TRAITORS and turncoats handing over our hard won freedoms to the NAZIs of the EU!!!!!This is a fact,the UK would do well to copy some of the freedoms guarenteed in the US,Nulab is daily undermining yours(oh dear i spoke out against the Party,that is treason in the socialist stalinist marxist NULAB regime)i bet you cannot show evidence of an anti British post by me and show it in quote here on this site,because it dosent exist,of course it must be quoted in its entirety not hakf a sentence here and another joined on to the end of it(ie not cherry picking show the whole Quote).If the quote was an answer to an attack on the USA show also the quote i responded to.Now given those parameters(ie tell the truth)you cannot find one anti british post from me NO MATTER HOW YOU TRY AND TWIST IT!!(typical totalitarian Marxist tactic)!!!!!

[pauli007001]

Yes of course it is. I hate my country as a historical actor; but I love many of the people. To be honest I have much more love for my local community than for the UK as a whole. The thing with me is I feel too much shame about what this country has done in the past.


You have never said you hate britain??????????????????????????????????
Here tells me sommat a little different!!!!!!Unless yuor country is Outer mongolia or something(next time you go visit your homeland can you pick up an outer mongolian Nose Flute for me,i love woodwond instruments)!!!!!!!!!!!!!!If you are british you have just here stated you hate your country and feel too much shame ,now please tell me how on earth this makes ME Anti British and you pro British!!??!!??!!??!!??Now go and answere wy question from the last post(without cherry picking show the whole quote in context,as many will take a comparison as an insult without the full picture.If you do cherrypick i will surely go through the archeive an proove you wrong,i have plenty of time.The Democrats who run the commonwealth of Massachusetts and the City of Boston have put a freeze on all Building permits since august,to create the Myth that the Bush administration has ruined the job market,in order to encourage builder etc to vote Democrat!!!!Now once Obama has been inaugerated they will wait a month or six weeks and release all those Permits resulting in a flood of work and OH lordy what a great job Obama is doing look at how all the work has boosted(politics as usual is not a onesided phenomenon).So Until after Feb i will have plenty of time to refute any false allegating you or any of your Ilk wish to make!!!!!

[Marxist Nutter]

You have never said you hate britain??????????????????????????????????
Here tells me sommat a little different!!!!!!Unless yuor country is Outer mongolia or something(next time you go visit your homeland can you pick up an outer mongolian Nose Flute for me,i love woodwond instruments)!!!!!!!!!!!!!!If you are british you have just here stated you hate your country and feel too much shame ,now please tell me how on earth this makes ME Anti British and you pro British!!??!!??!!??!!??Now go and answere wy question from the last post(without cherry picking show the whole quote in context,as many will take a comparison as an insult without the full picture.If you do cherrypick i will surely go through the archeive an proove you wrong,i have plenty of time.The Democrats who run the commonwealth of Massachusetts and the City of Boston have put a freeze on all Building permits since august,to create the Myth that the Bush administration has ruined the job market,in order to encourage builder etc to vote Democrat!!!!Now once Obama has been inaugerated they will wait a month or six weeks and release all those Permits resulting in a flood of work and OH lordy what a great job Obama is doing look at how all the work has boosted(politics as usual is not a onesided phenomenon).So Until after Feb i will have plenty of time to refute any false allegating you or any of your Ilk wish to make!!!!!

OK you just pick random topics and go on about them in a way I have already mocked you for in another thread and you are all upset about it and are trying to prove some point about me hating Britain! You also have to do this in two confused sounding posts.

Very good pauli, this proves more about you than it odes me (anticipating another rant of PROVE I said...blah etc EUSSR, T>B LIAR USA is great I am a millionaire you are a communist [as you dont understand what this means] - see reply above yet to come)

Just to say to hate your country as a historical actor is largely the same as hating a government or its polices except over a longer historical period. But this is clear from the context - any idiot could work it out from what you quoted (the next sentence was even about my love for the people of the UK)....or maybe they can't...we'll see :rolleyes:

[pauli007001]

OK you just pick random topics and go on about them in a way I have already mocked you for in another thread and you are all upset about it and are trying to prove some point about me hating Britain! You also have to do this in two confused sounding posts.

Very good pauli, this proves more about you than it odes me (anticipating another rant of PROVE I said...blah etc EUSSR, T>B LIAR USA is great I am a millionaire you are a communist [as you dont understand what this means] - see reply above yet to come)

Just to say to hate your country as a historical actor is largely the same as hating a government or its polices except over a longer historical period. But this is clear from the context - any idiot could work it out from what you quoted (the next sentence was even about my love for the people of the UK)....or maybe they can't...we'll see :rolleyes:



Oh OH how is it when confronted with the facts all you lot can do is resort to personal attack and insults.However lets make this clear,i hate Brown and Blair for the destruction they have heaped on my fellow country men.
If this meens i hate the British i have another Question.
I hate what Hitler and the Nazis Did to the German people,is this an attack on the german people????,await your next barrage of insult and abuse!!!!

But i think i have prooved here and on another thread your hatred of the British people!!!!!!!!!!Unless i am in breach of Doublespeak regulations??????

Just to be clear,this is a response to the continued insulting LIE that you continue to post that i am anti British,but the evidence i show prooves that it is you who is anti British,it was a reply to a comment you made today at 2.10 pm on this very thread accusing me (falsley) of condemning and belittling Britain,you as a socialist are obviously of the opinion that to question the leadership is to be a traitor to the Nation!!!!!!!!

[Marxist Nutter]

Oh OH how is it when confronted with the facts all you lot can do is resort to personal attack and insults.However lets make this clear,i hate Brown and Blair for the destruction they have heaped on my fellow country men.
If this meens i hate the British i have another Question.
I hate what Hitler and the Nazis Did to the German people,is this an attack on the german people????,await your next barrage of insult and abuse!!!!

But i think i have prooved here and on another thread your hatred of the British people!!!!!!!!!!Unless i am in breach of Doublespeak regulations??????

Facts Pauli, i doubt you would know one if you saw it.

If you think you have proved something, then well done *pat on the head* 'Good Boy!!!!

The posts speak for themselves as far as i am concerned. I know why you picked this argument and you failed. You failed bad. And you look so silly for doing it as well - just like on the thread where you tried to show Hitler was a socialist and I made you look like such a moron (yet you still say it!!!) :D

[pauli007001]

Facts Pauli, i doubt you would know one if you saw it.

If you think you have proved something, then well done *pat on the head* 'Good Boy!!!!

The posts speak for themselves as far as i am concerned. I know why you picked this argument and you failed. You failed bad. And you look so silly for doing it as well - just like on the thread where you tried to show Hitler was a socialist and I made you look like such a moron (yet you still say it!!!) :D

Lets think ,Hitler was a SCOCIALIST !!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
National SOCIALIST German Workers Party!!!!!!!!

Socialist policies,SOCIALISED medicine,GUN controll,welfare state,oppression of selected groups,mass killing of the same selected groups(Hitler killed the Jews,Stalin killed the KULAKs) equating the personality of the leader to the spirit of the nation(hitler)equating a party policy to being the culture of the Nation(stalin)how id he not a socialist,he practised the leadership principle of socialism,stalin practised the Party principle of socialism!!!!


And it is a FACT that you have said you are ashamed of Britain,you hate britain is it not???So i do know a fact when i see one.It is also a fact that you are still resorting to personal attack and insult when you are shown to be wrong,people in glass houses really shouldnt throw stones!!!!!!!!!!!

[Marxist Nutter]

Lets think ,Hitler was a SCOCIALIST !!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
National SOCIALIST German Workers Party!!!!!!!!

Socialist policies,SOCIALISED medicine,GUN controll,welfare state,oppression of selected groups,mass killing of the same selected groups(Hitler killed the Jews,Stalin killed the KULAKs) equating the personality of the leader to the spirit of the nation(hitler)equating a party policy to being the culture of the Nation(stalin)how id he not a socialist,he practised the leadership principle of socialism,stalin practised the Party principle of socialism!!!!


And it is a FACT that you have said you are ashamed of Britain,you hate britain is it not???So i do know a fact when i see one.It is also a fact that you are still resorting to personal attack and insult when you are shown to be wrong,people in glass houses really shouldnt throw stones!!!!!!!!!!!

As for hitler being a socialist (it is so funny you stick to this.) i show why u cannot have a nationalist socialsm here


Fascists Force Policeman to Resign over BNP Badge (http://www.politic.co.uk/uk-political-union-scandals/10729-fascists-force-policeman-resign-over-bnp-badge.html#post49618)

this thread always makes me laugh

and no Pauli i said I hate the UK as a historical actor - you should know you quoted it ;). I am ashamed of Britain yes - I never denied it. Do I hate Britain - well the answer is clear from what you quoted. No I don't hate the people of the UK just this and previous governments and the way this country has behaved in the past. As I said it all speaks for itself. I repeat if you think this proves something - pat on head - well done!

[pauli007001]

[quote=Marxist Nutter;53194]As for hitler being a socialist (it is so funny you stick to this.) i show why u cannot have a nationalist socialsm here


Fascists Force Policeman to Resign over BNP Badge (http://www.politic.co.uk/uk-political-union-scandals/10729-fascists-force-policeman-resign-over-bnp-badge.html#post49618)

this thread always makes me laugh

and no Pauli i said I hate the UK as a historical actor - you should know you quoted it ;). I am ashamed of Britain yes - I never denied it. Do I hate Britain - well the answer is clear from what you quoted. No I don't hate the people of the UK just this and previous governments and the way this country has behaved in the past. As I said it all speaks for itself. I repeat if you think this proves something - pat on head - well done!


[If you wanna be proud of being a member of a nation becoz it enslaved people and committed genocide throughout most of the world I suppose that's your concern. I however find it rather sick /quote]
Just pulled this one up,not at all anti British!!!!!!
Like i said before,do not make accusations about me hating britain when never have i said one word that is anti British,however as i again have prooved you have!!!!

People in Glass houses shouldnt throw stones,as the old British saying goes!!!!!!

[Marxist Nutter]

[quote=Marxist Nutter;53194]As for hitler being a socialist (it is so funny you stick to this.) i show why u cannot have a nationalist socialsm here


Fascists Force Policeman to Resign over BNP Badge (http://www.politic.co.uk/uk-political-union-scandals/10729-fascists-force-policeman-resign-over-bnp-badge.html#post49618)

this thread always makes me laugh

and no Pauli i said I hate the UK as a historical actor - you should know you quoted it . I am ashamed of Britain yes - I never denied it. Do I hate Britain - well the answer is clear from what you quoted. No I don't hate the people of the UK just this and previous governments and the way this country has behaved in the past. As I said it all speaks for itself. I repeat if you think this proves something - pat on head - well done!


[If you wanna be proud of being a member of a nation becoz it enslaved people and committed genocide throughout most of the world I suppose that's your concern. I however find it rather sick /quote]
Just pulled this one up,not at all anti British!!!!!!
Like i said before,do not make accusations about me hating britain when never have i said one word that is anti British,however as i again have prooved you have!!!!

People in Glass houses shouldnt throw stones,as the old British saying goes!!!!!!

[Note no reply to the other thread where I make \Pauli look really dumb for making comments he makes all the time about Hitler (including below)]

No it is not anti British Pauli. Not that matters if it is. You need to prove this point for some reason (probably coz I always make you look like such a fool on this forum - well you do it to your self more often - and this is nothing to do with you being a workman or uneducated - it is just you cannot understand simple things and make stupid points - like this one about me being anti british ). Oh |I forgot this whole thing is just coz I took the mic out of poor little Pauli on another thread. It;s okay Pauli, you can tell teacher if you want!!!

In fact you have now invested so much effort in making this one point - it makes you look even more stupid that you have completely failed to make it (except of course in Pauli world, in your head, the land where everyone is a communist and EUSSR control the world!!)

Read the quote above Pauli. Can you do that???

now lets go thru it carefully...(like dealing with a damn child) as I stand by everything that I have said.

If you wanna be proud of being a member of a nation becoz it enslaved people and committed genocide throughout most of the world I suppose that's your concern. I however find it rather sick
lets noted the highlighted 'becoz'. I said it was sick to be proud opf the nation BECOZ we committed genocide and enslaved people. Yes? I mean that is what the sentence means is it not? What do you think it means???

I mean are you proud we enslaved people, pauli? Is that what you are saying...In fact it must be. As you say the above sentence is 'proof' I am anti british. Thus YOU MUST THINK IT ANTI BRITISH NOT TO SUPPORT SLAVERY!!

I HAVE PROVED IT!!!!
Pauli is proud of enslaving people and he says so. To not be proud of Britain's slavery trade, and colonial genocides is anti british, according to Pauli!!! I 've proved it!!!!!! wow!!!!!!!!
Now I have sunk to your pathetic level, just to prove what a pointless argument this is.

Pauli, grow up!
It is really sad that you cannot debate at an adult level and even when you debate like a 5 year old child I still beat you at your own game. FEEL SMALL PAULI VERY VERY SMALL! :D

[pauli007001]

[quote=pauli007001;53196]

[Note no reply to the other thread where I make \Pauli look really dumb for making comments he makes all the time about Hitler (including below)]

No it is not anti British Pauli. Not that matters if it is. You need to prove this point for some reason (probably coz I always make you look like such a fool on this forum - well you do it to your self more often - and this is nothing to do with you being a workman or uneducated - it is just you cannot understand simple things and make stupid points - like this one about me being anti british ). Oh |I forgot this whole thing is just coz I took the mic out of poor little Pauli on another thread. It;s okay Pauli, you can tell teacher if you want!!!

In fact you have now invested so much effort in making this one point - it makes you look even more stupid that you have completely failed to make it (except of course in Pauli world, in your head, the land where everyone is a communist and EUSSR control the world!!)

Read the quote above Pauli. Can you do that???

now lets go thru it carefully...(like dealing with a damn child) as I stand by everything that I have said.

lets noted the highlighted 'becoz'. I said it was sick to be proud opf the nation BECOZ we committed genocide and enslaved people. Yes? I mean that is what the sentence means is it not? What do you think it means???

I mean are you proud we enslaved people, pauli? Is that what you are saying...In fact it must be. As you say the above sentence is 'proof' I am anti british. Thus YOU MUST THINK IT ANTI BRITISH NOT TO SUPPORT SLAVERY!!

I HAVE PROVED IT!!!!
Pauli is proud of enslaving people and he says so. To not be proud of Britain's slavery trade, and colonial genocides is anti british, according to Pauli!!! I 've proved it!!!!!! wow!!!!!!!!
Now I have sunk to your pathetic level, just to prove what a pointless argument this is.

Pauli, grow up!
It is really sad that you cannot debate at an adult level and even when you debate like a 5 year old child I still beat you at your own game. FEEL SMALL PAULI VERY VERY SMALL! :D




So you admit that you are anti british,i mean being ashamed is not exactly an act of loyalty!!!!!
Perhaps you should not accuse a patriot of being a traitor in future,never once(despite all your twisting of words and lies)have i made an anti British post,yet i show 2 or 3 of your posts in a 2 or 3 day period and all are anti British,i proove it and in reaction you resort to throwing abuse and insults,niiiiice you have Prooven your superiority,to yourself and no other!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

[Marxist Nutter]

[quote=Marxist Nutter;53230]




So you admit that you are anti british,i mean being ashamed is not exactly an act of loyalty!!!!!
Perhaps you should not accuse a patriot of being a traitor in future,never once(despite all your twisting of words and lies)have i made an anti British post,yet i show 2 or 3 of your posts in a 2 or 3 day period and all are anti British,i proove it and in reaction you resort to throwing abuse and insults,niiiiice you have Prooven your superiority,to yourself and no other!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

NO i have 'proved' (that's pauli speak) that you think it is anti british not to support slavery.

So you think it is patriotic to enslave people and commit mass murder. i am very glad I am not a patriot (in your opinion) in that case!!:rolleyes:

[pauli007001]

[quote=Marxist Nutter;53230]




So you admit that you are anti british,i mean being ashamed is not exactly an act of loyalty!!!!!
Perhaps you should not accuse a patriot of being a traitor in future,never once(despite all your twisting of words and lies)have i made an anti British post,yet i show 2 or 3 of your posts in a 2 or 3 day period and all are anti British,i proove it and in reaction you resort to throwing abuse and insults,niiiiice you have Prooven your superiority,to yourself and no other!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!


And in answer to the question I NEVER ENSLAVED ANY ONE!!! MY ANCESTORS(IRISH and SCOTTISH)WERE MORE LIKELY TO HAVE BEEN SLAVES THAT SLAVERS.Do not forget that 2000 years ago Africans were taking Britons as slaves in boats in which many died on route to far forign lands in which they were subjected to violence and torture and worked into a n early grave,what goes aroun comes around!!!!!!Although the main organiser of this Slave trade is now celebrated on a list of great black Britons,but the African controlled white slave trade is worthy of celebration???


There was of course a lot more to british history than slavery(for example william wilberforce,are you ashamed of him)?How about the British people standing up for their word and standing by France when Hitler invaded them,we could have hung up the gloves after we established air superiority over the UK at the End of 1940 and Hitler would have gone and done his own thing elsewhere,leaving us alone to live our lives,are you ashamed of the sacrifice my Grandfathers made in the defence of this country???Why do you only look to the Negative aspects of British History and never to the positive?Even when the positives far outweigh the negatives!!!!!!!!!!

[Marxist Nutter]

[quote=pauli007001;53406]

[quote]
And in answer to the question I NEVER ENSLAVED ANY ONE MY ANCESTORS(IRISH and SCOTTISH)WERE MORE LIKELY TO HAVE BEEN SLAVES THAT SLAVERS.Do not forget that 2000 years ago Africans were taking Britons as slaves in boats in which many died on route to far forign lands in which they were subjected to violence and torture and worked into a n early grave,what goes aroun comes around!!!!!!Although the main organiser of this Slave trade is now celebrated on a list of great black Britons,but the African controlled white slave trade is worthy of celebration???
???? Britons enslaved by Africans 2000 years ago have never heard of this but will do some research and get back to you (any more details?)
I never said you enslaved any of your ancestors and as a point of logic it would be impossible to enslave one's own ancestors anyway so again pauli you make little sense :p


There was of course a lot more to british history than slavery(for example william wilberforce,are you ashamed of him)?How about the British people standing up for their word and standing by France when Hitler invaded them,we could have hung up the gloves after we established air superiority over the UK at the End of 1940 and Hitler would have gone and done his own thing elsewhere,leaving us alone to live our lives,are you ashamed of the sacrifice my Grandfathers made in the defence of this country???Why do you only look to the Negative aspects of British History and never to the positive?Even when the positives far outweigh the negatives!!!!!!!!!!This is not the issue. You had a go at me (trolling really) about being anti british becoz I condemn slavery and colonialism hence by condemning me for condemning slavery you must be a supporter of slavery. Simple logic really.

Defeating Hitler is one of very few examples of Britain doing 'the right thing' and that is more out of historical accident than anything else (many wanted to fight the USSR instead). It is not just slavery either. We wiped out whole tribes in Africa, set up Gulags in Kenya (http://www.newleftreview.org/?view=2558)and brutally murdered many Australian natives. There is quite a lot of British history which is not very nice to read and may I suggest that ignoring all this does not make you a patriot. It makes you an apologist for atrocities.

Now I condemn these sorts of actions from any nation and it would be hypocritical of me not to point out Briatin's human rights abuses and atrocities. Did you know we also forced people from their home islands (that we controlled) in order to give them to the US military (source) and then denied their existence!?!. (http://www.hartford-hwp.com/archives/36/045.html)

To be honest I am at a bit of loss to find examples of Britain doing good in the world but I do do take your point about not being balanced and will try to provide examples of Britain doing positive things for the world, just as soon as I find some.

[Hoopoo]

Yes.

National Service, if anything, would scare the youth of today and show them that in times of need, you actually have to work, and not rely on other people's generosity or charity, (e.g the dole) to live.

It would also scare them into showing them how tough the world is, and make them appreciate the work that our troops do abroad.

It may possibly even be a viable career choice for many of the youth, and thus gives us a bigger standing army.

Where the hell did you get this drivvle from? The youth of today aint scared of anything simply because there aint anything to be scared of! They can do whatever they want to do and no one does a thing to stop them. The courts are powerless, the useless police force, oops sorry I mean police service are scared to do anything, the teachers will not do anything and the parents are crap!

Lets just say for arguments sake that Nat Service is adopted tomorrow, what happens when Jack the Scrote gets his call up papers and chooses to go but when he arrives at recruit training opts instead to do nothing but lay on his bed? And your answer is ..............................

What happens when Jack the Scrote gets his call up papers and chooses not to attend recruit training but instead he stays at home? And your answer is ..............................

Why should societies problem become a problem for the Army? And your answer is ..............................


Now if you want my answer on how to handle the idle youth of today just pin yer lugs back, keep in mind though that my response is based on practical experience and not some namby pamby wishy washy liberal type Guardian reading vegetarian eating ideology because them types have not got a clue, Baby P being a prime example! Anyone guilty of anti social behavour (car theft, vandalism, shop lifting, assault, failure to respond to Police instructions, failure to attend school, drug use, underage alcohol use, driving offences etc) are to be locked up in institutions where they are confined to a cell measuring 1.5 metres by 2.5 metres which has a hole for urinating/defecating, no TV, No visits from mum, no association, diet would be basic, prison clothing only, tepid water for showering and when I say locked up they are LOCKED up! If they die as a result of their confinement then that is hard luck! And by the way, I know what I am talking about.

[Tete123]

Where the hell did you get this drivvle from? The youth of today aint scared of anything simply because there aint anything to be scared of! They can do whatever they want to do and no one does a thing to stop them. The courts are powerless, the useless police force, oops sorry I mean police service are scared to do anything, the teachers will not do anything and the parents are crap!

Lets just say for arguments sake that Nat Service is adopted tomorrow, what happens when Jack the Scrote gets his call up papers and chooses to go but when he arrives at recruit training opts instead to do nothing but lay on his bed? And your answer is ..............................

What happens when Jack the Scrote gets his call up papers and chooses not to attend recruit training but instead he stays at home? And your answer is ..............................

Why should societies problem become a problem for the Army? And your answer is ..............................


Now if you want my answer on how to handle the idle youth of today just pin yer lugs back, keep in mind though that my response is based on practical experience and not some namby pamby wishy washy liberal type Guardian reading vegetarian eating ideology because them types have not got a clue, Baby P being a prime example! Anyone guilty of anti social behavour (car theft, vandalism, shop lifting, assault, failure to respond to Police instructions, failure to attend school, drug use, underage alcohol use, driving offences etc) are to be locked up in institutions where they are confined to a cell measuring 1.5 metres by 2.5 metres which has a hole for urinating/defecating, no TV, No visits from mum, no association, diet would be basic, prison clothing only, tepid water for showering and when I say locked up they are LOCKED up! If they die as a result of their confinement then that is hard luck! And by the way, I know what I am talking about.

Would this detention be indefinite? I'm sure you do feel you know what your talking about, what practical experience is this based on - Guantanamo Bay? Soviet Gulag? I mean this is your opinion passed off as that of an expert - care to expand on why 'you know what your talking about?'

[Hoopoo]

Would this detention be indefinite? I'm sure you do feel you know what your talking about, what practical experience is this based on - Guantanamo Bay? Soviet Gulag? I mean this is your opinion passed off as that of an expert - care to expand on why 'you know what your talking about?'

Experience of life, working on the coalface of society, suffice to say I do know what I am talking about, too many out there do not, you sound as though you are one of em! If I were to expand on the issue the post would have turned into a cure for an illiterate insomniac, brevity is the key eh!

Of course the confinement would not be indefinate, did I imply such a thing. Hmmmmn, soviet gulag eh, I suspect that is more in line with your concept and your darling Blair and Brooon!

Now, by all means interpost but do keep a modicum of sense and proportion about what you say, for instance attempt to deal with the issue of a feral youth and the viability of Nat Service being imposed on a society where law and order is at breaking point.

You have a nice christmas. ;)

[Tete123]

Experience of life, working on the coalface of society, suffice to say I do know what I am talking about, too many out there do not, you sound as though you are one of em! If I were to expand on the issue the post would have turned into a cure for an illiterate insomniac, brevity is the key eh!

Of course the confinement would not be indefinate, did I imply such a thing. Hmmmmn, soviet gulag eh, I suspect that is more in line with your concept and your darling Blair and Brooon!

Now, by all means interpost but do keep a modicum of sense and proportion about what you say, for instance attempt to deal with the issue of a feral youth and the viability of Nat Service being imposed on a society where law and order is at breaking point.

You have a nice christmas. ;)


And may I ask why your life experience affords you the right to suppose that you know what you’re talking about in regards this issue (and others) yet you presuppose from the 2 sentences that were posted that I fall into a category that doesn’t?
I would say read through my previous posts to ascertain my political and societal views before you make such assumptions; anything short of this will lead me to believe that your prejudicial views regarding me, will be espoused in your views to other topics; this one being no exception.
In you brevity, you failed to mention the duration of confinement (a reason why brevity is sometimes not the key) and again another prejudicial view asserted – how did you suspect from my short reply that I would favour the Gulag or support Blair and Brown (I am troubled why members feel the need to attribute stupid name plays to political leaders)?
Now, I will interject into this debate (remember it is about National Service not confinement) but I would expect a modicum of proportion from those I am debating; something I fail to see from your good self with regards both youth crime specifically and crime levels in general.
Merry Xmas to you too.

[Hoopoo]

And may I ask why your life experience affords you the right to suppose that you know what you’re talking about in regards this issue (and others) yet you presuppose from the 2 sentences that were posted that I fall into a category that doesn’t?
I would say read through my previous posts to ascertain my political and societal views before you make such assumptions; anything short of this will lead me to believe that your prejudicial views regarding me, will be espoused in your views to other topics; this one being no exception.
In you brevity, you failed to mention the duration of confinement (a reason why brevity is sometimes not the key) and again another prejudicial view asserted – how did you suspect from my short reply that I would favour the Gulag or support Blair and Brown (I am troubled why members feel the need to attribute stupid name plays to political leaders)?
Now, I will interject into this debate (remember it is about National Service not confinement) but I would expect a modicum of proportion from those I am debating; something I fail to see from your good self with regards both youth crime specifically and crime levels in general.
Merry Xmas to you too.

You may well ask about my life experiences but I wont tell you! You get but one chance to make an impression, my perception of you was made at the first reading of your post, and I have no intention of viewing other posts to ascertain your political leaning, there is a life away from these boards and it is Christmas.

You have a happy new year.

[bnpneedsyou]

I think with National service it is a tricky discussion, thier is positives and negatives from all sides. Im all for it being re introduced because it teaches our troubled teen generation about respect and authority. The time you spend doing your service will stay with you for the rest of the life, and i truelly believe that all you have learned and gain will help you through your life for the better. The downside is you could be forced to fight a war that you disagree with and pay the ultimate price for it (Death). Is it fair to force people to risk thier one and only life if it is againts thier wishes?.

The benifits from it are great, but its still a risky business. I am all for it and would like to see it brought in but i wouldnt like to see people go to a war that they dont want to fight and they dont believe in its cause. After all we are the foot soldiers who suffer, we fight with weapons and our lives. The politicians who send us into war fight with words and a pen at the comfort of thier desk. I for one would fight for my country because im a very patriotic person, but many would not and i wouldnt blame or critisise them for it.

[Expounder]

Would this detention be indefinite? I'm sure you do feel you know what your talking about, what practical experience is this based on - Guantanamo Bay? Soviet Gulag? I mean this is your opinion passed off as that of an expert - care to expand on why 'you know what your talking about?'

Having lived through WW2 and called up for service in 1946 for National service I feel I supply one of the answers as the same rules applied in my time as during the war.

Once called up you were under miltary law, [totally separate from civilian law]. Non compliance with orders would first mean on a charge to appear before tha Senior officer of Corps, Battalion, or Regiment. The most he could give could be 28 days in the Guard House.

If futher non compliance occurred or the offence was too serious to be dealt with, by the Commanding Officer, you would be held in custody awaiting Courts Martial.

If the Courts Martial found the person guilty of the charge he would be sentenced to a term inthe "Glass House" [ military prison.]

Immediately he walked through the gates he would be subject to moving [almost a run at double time when on the move] throughout his sentence shouted at continuously if he slowed.

He would be subject arbitary violent punishent for the slightest misdemeanuor, ie: physical assault by the guards or solitary confinement on and bread and water for an indeterminate period.His life became a living hell until the end of his sentence if he didn't toe the line.

In fact they made the sentence almost worse that death as an inducement for them to behave in the manner demanded by the military establishment .

The question is, are we prepared as a society to introduce similar punishment in order to maintain discipline in order to introduce National Service or get society back on track?

The point is it worked during National Emergencies such as the war and the aftermath it was brutal and efficient and entailed unexplained deaths in custody for which there were public enquiries.

We must ask ourselves how bad the break down in society must be before
similar measures are used in todays climate?


I am not propagating the use of these measures, but pointing out the measures used to maintain discipline during WW2 and the aftermath. To re-intrduce National service, nothing short of what I have decribed would maintain National service discipline.

In other words we are living in a different world which would no longer accept the code of the past.

The answer is that National Service is not an option purely using todays moral code.

[Tete123]

You may well ask about my life experiences but I wont tell you! You get but one chance to make an impression, my perception of you was made at the first reading of your post, and I have no intention of viewing other posts to ascertain your political leaning, there is a life away from these boards and it is Christmas.

You have a happy new year.

If truth be known I am not really bothered about your life experiences, they provide you with nothing more than a subjective opinion on matters such as these, which is far from expert. I also know that your perception of me was based on my initial post (in response to you in this thread) the problem is the various false positions you attribute to me based on little more than assumption - thus showing your penchant for predjudice which I am sorry to say is clear anyway from the other views you have so far contributed to this forum.

Why you feel it necessary to end you vitriol with messages of goodwill I have no idea.

[Hoopoo]

If truth be known I am not really bothered about your life experiences, they provide you with nothing more than a subjective opinion on matters such as these, which is far from expert. I also know that your perception of me was based on my initial post (in response to you in this thread) the problem is the various false positions you attribute to me based on little more than assumption - thus showing your penchant for predjudice which I am sorry to say is clear anyway from the other views you have so far contributed to this forum.

Why you feel it necessary to end you vitriol with messages of goodwill I have no idea.

If you are "not bothered about" my "life experiences":

Originally Posted by Tete123 http://www.politic.co.uk/images/buttons/viewpost.gif (http://www.politic.co.uk/united-kingdom-politics/10245-national-service.html#post54922)
And may I ask why your life experience affords you the right to suppose that you know what you’re talking about in regards this issue (and others) yet you presuppose from the 2 sentences that were posted that I fall into a category that doesn’t?

why ask in the first place!

[The voice of reason]

Having served a brief but unpleasant spell in her majesty's finest, I am firmly of the belief that National service should be used, with conditions for career criminals.

First of all let's not teach them how to use a gun or kill anyone, but let them experience the discipline side of things. granted the treatment of prisoners in the "glass house" had improved substantially by the time i signed up, but then again, trust me when i say it still wasn't a picnic.

Sadly society today says to career criminals: "break the law and we'll punish you"

First we'll put you in a cell with someone who can teach you how to break the law without getting caught as often.

Secondly we will allow you to have all the comforts of home and have to treat you with respect from time to time.

Thirdly, we'll even pay you a nice juicy cheque if we breack your human rights (slopping out) and we'll even save it for you when you get out.

And finally with cheque in hand we will even pay your bus fare home and give you an allowance until you get your next criminal scheme going.

Prison doesn't work in todays society, maybe some of the scum of the earth should go through a year of being verbally abused, lifted and dragged when they couldn't continue, made to do physical exercise when unfit to do so because they decided to be smart arses and even endure a real prison....maybe then some of them would actually consider falling into line with society.

But then again why give them community service, lets just ditch europe and give them what they gave their victim's....you know An eye for an eye......