German constitution questions.

[von-Scharnhorst]

HOW are they supossed to be "tried and tested"? Irak?

As to Germany we allready have 2,300 troops in area, plus 4,300 in other areas. NOT including the deployment, starting yesterday, in the Middle East.

Before picking on the country that provides the third largest contingent, you need to look at those bastards that have not supplied one single man. Belgium and France spring to mind.

And remember, because of the constitution, forced upon us by the bloody British and U.S, we can only send regular troops. We are NOT allowed to send "national service men". If we were, we could possibly double those numbers. There is no shortage of volunteers from the "National service men" but the Government can not send them.

[blacktory]

Indeed....however 50 years down the line isnt there a process by which the constituion can be revoked? Yes the french are cowards by leave them be.... they know no better! Italy......well when was thre last time italian troops stirred fear into the hearts of men? i speak of Germany not to pick on it but because we british are starting to understand that Germany is the only nation we can trust in Europe. You do know that the EURO was a way of the bastard french to hold you down. My message is it's time for Germany to lead europe!!!:D

[von-Scharnhorst]

Italy......well when was thre last time italian troops stirred fear into the hearts of men?
You will find that the Italians ARE there. They were also extreemly successful with their air force in Gulf war I.

Indeed....however 50 years down the line isnt there a process by which the constituion can be revoked?
MOST of it is exactly the same as the old Prussian constitution, so why revoke it? The parts that are not, are those added at the insistance of the "allied powers".

INCLUDING an interesting little piece which makes it illegal to change the constitution in it's fundamental basis.

[blacktory]

Yes i knew the italians are there it was just my strong distrust of them that when the going gets tough they tend to buckle, obviously you seem to know their capbility far more than i. Actually i was wondering if you could tell me about this little clause that stops the constituion from being changed. What is it bound by the feeble straps of international law???

[von-Scharnhorst]

Actually i was wondering if you could tell me about this little clause that stops the constituion from being changed. What is it bound by the feeble straps of international law???
The constitution CAN be amended by the "Verfassungsgericht" (constitutianal court), or better said "interpreted".

To actualy CHANGE it needs a decission by the Verfassungsgericht, PLUS a 100% vote in parliament AND a decission by the Bundespräsident. (German President). Then it has to go to referendum of the people, and has to get a 51% majority.

That applys only to the BASIC, Ie first 18 laws. (Frssedom of religion, freedom of speech, etc). The rest are things like.... I dunno, who is responsible for transport etc. They can be changed relatively simply.

As to what would happen if a Government went against the constitution, the Verfassungschutz, or constitutional "police", would arrest them, and they would be brought before the constitutional court.

[Ads21]

On the subject of Afghanistan it is about time the germans took back a real role on the world stage. As a strong liberal democracy it is germany's duty to help with the reconstruction of Afghanistan so it can become a stable and prosperous nation.
And as for tried and tested it is far more important that the troops need to be propperly equipped unlike the british troops who are shamefully undersuplyed.

[von-Scharnhorst]

As a strong liberal democracy it is germany's duty to help with the reconstruction of Afghanistan so it can become a stable and prosperous nation.
And, as the third largest contingent in Afgahnistan, we are doing JUST that.

Without, as the British and Americans seem to be doing, overly annoying the local population, by the use of tacticts that were designed for fighting the Russians in a contest to the death. NOT for knocking at peoples doors to find out if they know if "Mustapha wants to come out to play".

[Ads21]

Firstly would you not compare the tactics of american and british forces in such a way, the british troops are far better at winning hearts and minds, that has been shown in afghanistan and iraq, and before that you can compare britains compaign in Malaya to the americans/ french in Vietnam.
Secondly I don't doubt germany's current contribution, but in the NATO led force britain has more than double the conrtibution of the second highest contributer. And the lack of support by the rest of NATO was shown recently when britain asked for more troops, only Poland responded. The lack of support for the mission is worrying especially when it is a mision of such paramount importance.

[von-Scharnhorst]

Germany is allready at the maximum amount we can send without endangering the defence of Germany on "home soil" and the training of new recruits and conscripts.

Only those troops who have volunteered to join the army/navy/Airforce, as career soldiers, can be sent abroad. So allthough on paper we have a large number of troops NOT there, 80% are conscripts, over whom the German Governments hands are tied.

The relevant part o the constitution is;

Artikel 16(2) Kein Deutscher darf an das Ausland ausgeliefert werden.

Ie "No German may be sent abroad against their will.

Because we are not free to choose NOT to do National service, to send conscripts to Afgahnistan or Iraq, or any other "war zone" would be illegal. As it would count as being "against their will".