Ex-service personnel

[Midas]

In her comments to a recent blog by Don, Uncon said "One thing has interested me this week and that is the huge numbers of ex forces people who are currently in prison here. To me that says that we are failing to look after skilled and disciplined people upon their return from service. It is a disproportionate percentage, and with that in mind it takes me back to those who are basically enforcing the 'lock em away mentality towards petty criminals....how about we look after our ex service personell and use them to help deal with the problem via teaching discipline? Just a thought".

I'd be interested in hearing other people's views on this subject; are we as a society failing our ex-service personnel once they leave the armed forces and return to civilian life or should the finger of blame (assuming we think there is blame) be pointed at the armed forces themselves for often dehumanising their personnel in times of conflict then returning them to society without having made any attempts to rehumanise them?

I can only speak of the few direct experiences I've had with ex-service people in an employment situation, which has been less than successful and in the three instances that we've employed ex-army people, we've had to terminate their employment because they were simply not up to using their initiative and working independently. I have heard from business colleagues in other companies who've also employed ex-service people that they've had similar problems. I'm sure these people aren't lacking in intelligence or work ethic and can only put their failing down to years of unreversed brainwashing in the forces to only do what they're told. If this is something which is true of a substantial number of ex-service personnel, it's perhaps little wonder than so many of them are jobless with all the consequential problems which can be associated with that.

[DC]

IMO people in the armed force often have or become very dependent personalities. They would have trouble thinking and acting on their own, which obviously is not a good thing in any real employment. I believe that they should stay in the armed forces as long as possible, and there should be benefits to keep them in the forces. One major thing we need to do is work out how to mitigate instances of PTSD. I don't see any real solution apart from that, unless we somehow design some work areas that cater to post-army personnel.

[Scooby]

I think we need to separate the two issues here,
1) The abnormally high percentage of ex military in prison, i think that in this country we treat our ex service personnel appallingly, we train them to do a job which includes tasks which are far worse than any one else will ever have to deal with and when they are injured either physically or psychologically they are given a minimum of rehabilitation and then left to fend for themselves. We should look back to then experience America had with the Vietnam veterans and look at how they developed reintegration and support, but one major differance is that the American public have a stronger loyalty to their troops, unlike here in the UK where in most, not all, towns service personnel are derided and only wanted when they have money to spend.
2) Employing ex service personnel, i have had mixed success with this and much depended on what the individual did in the forces, I'm ex engineers and have had a very fulfilling career and where possible i actively employed ex troops as i felt it only right to do so, the biggest problem is that there is little in the way of orientation training before being discharged, so effectively, you leave an organisation that takes care of every facet of your life, even down to whether you have a beard or not, and then we expect these guys to go out and effectively start an entire new life from scratch, and all at once, beig realistic even the most well balanced of us would find this difficult.

Both issues boil down to a lack of rehabilitation, re-orientation and training, we are letting these people down, and the government do it in the most callous ways possible. Another factor is the disproportionate amount of ex service personnel who sleep rough, another factor that links the two problems above:
1) can't get / keep job, loss of accomodation, and frequent break up of relationship
2) Homeless leading to petty crime, possible addiction, and violent crime
3) Prison

Then release and then we get a repeat of 2) &3).

[pauli007001]

In her comments to a recent blog by Don, Uncon said "One thing has interested me this week and that is the huge numbers of ex forces people who are currently in prison here. To me that says that we are failing to look after skilled and disciplined people upon their return from service. It is a disproportionate percentage, and with that in mind it takes me back to those who are basically enforcing the 'lock em away mentality towards petty criminals....how about we look after our ex service personell and use them to help deal with the problem via teaching discipline? Just a thought".

I'd be interested in hearing other people's views on this subject; are we as a society failing our ex-service personnel once they leave the armed forces and return to civilian life or should the finger of blame (assuming we think there is blame) be pointed at the armed forces themselves for often dehumanising their personnel in times of conflict then returning them to society without having made any attempts to rehumanise them?

I can only speak of the few direct experiences I've had with ex-service people in an employment situation, which has been less than successful and in the three instances that we've employed ex-army people, we've had to terminate their employment because they were simply not up to using their initiative and working independently. I have heard from business colleagues in other companies who've also employed ex-service people that they've had similar problems. I'm sure these people aren't lacking in intelligence or work ethic and can only put their failing down to years of unreversed brainwashing in the forces to only do what they're told. If this is something which is true of a substantial number of ex-service personnel, it's perhaps little wonder than so many of them are jobless with all the consequential problems which can be associated with that.

On a simelar note i have on 3 occasions had problems with hiring Ex teachers as have many of my buisness associates.They keep wondering off from their position to look at kiddie porn on their Blackberry or other such Internet phones.
It is probably why they are Ex teachers in the first place given the higher likelyhood of paedophiles to choose a Job as a teacher or a socialworker rather than a Brickie....

[pauli007001]

IMO people in the armed force often have or become very dependent personalities. They would have trouble thinking and acting on their own, which obviously is not a good thing in any real employment. I believe that they should stay in the armed forces as long as possible, and there should be benefits to keep them in the forces. One major thing we need to do is work out how to mitigate instances of PTSD. I don't see any real solution apart from that, unless we somehow design some work areas that cater to post-army personnel.

First DCFGS3 it is only your opinion and it is not based on any actual experience, the average soldier is trained to think on his feet, how else could he do his job?

Think about it, soldier on patrol comes under fire, his officers and NCOs are killed. what does he do?

I can assure you he dosnt stand there waiting to be told what to do he reacts with speed and efficiency he gets his job done.
Ex Soldiers are not brainwashed unthinking automations as Midas so often has claimed, i personally do not believe his claims(preiviously he changed the story and said they were former Officers not soldiers, wish hed make his mind up).Soldiers in Phase 1 Training are taught to think of their mates first, then to question everything then to be a part of a team.Each aspect of the training has a specific reason.Drill for example speeds up reaction and encourages the soldier to listen and react, it gives the soldier a sense of belonging to his unit.
The organisational aspect of training(personal Admin it is called) keeping ones kit in order for example also encourages a sense of belonging, loyalty, teamwork and will help a soldiers organisational skills in the field, organisation is a squaddies major strength.Organising his weapon and ammo, his equiptment, his specialised equiptment, his kit his body in order to provide an efficient service.Without proper organisation a soldier will become a casualty. More British troops were casualties to bad organisation in ww1 than to actual enemy activity, Trench foot was caused by bad organisation for example, other examples of injury due to bad organisation would be Sunburn, Insect bourne disease, some food poisoning(bad hygene), blisters etc etc.Despite Midas and his false claims I know many many former soldiers who have become greatly sucsessfull in their lives after leaving the military.I know very few of my ex collegues who have been incarcerated, after 16 years i know of 1 kid who was discharged on a section 8(mentally unfit for service) after 7 months total service(6 months of which was in phase 1 and Phase 2 training to become a Combat infantryman) he was with the Battalion for 2 weeks when oddities were noted in his behaviour, this could hardly be blamed on the Army, the kid was a Nut job he was discharged because he was a Nut job it wasnt noticed until he spent time with people in a relaxed environment( Battalion ) that he was quite as crazy as was suspected.
PTSD is an overrated condition, it is temporary ans does no harm, nothing a few beers withthe lads wont cure.It is IMO an invented condition.

[pauli007001]

I think we need to separate the two issues here,
1) The abnormally high percentage of ex military in prison, i think that in this country we treat our ex service personnel appallingly, we train them to do a job which includes tasks which are far worse than any one else will ever have to deal with and when they are injured either physically or psychologically they are given a minimum of rehabilitation and then left to fend for themselves. We should look back to then experience America had with the Vietnam veterans and look at how they developed reintegration and support, but one major differance is that the American public have a stronger loyalty to their troops, unlike here in the UK where in most, not all, towns service personnel are derided and only wanted when they have money to spend.
2) Employing ex service personnel, i have had mixed success with this and much depended on what the individual did in the forces, I'm ex engineers and have had a very fulfilling career and where possible i actively employed ex troops as i felt it only right to do so, the biggest problem is that there is little in the way of orientation training before being discharged, so effectively, you leave an organisation that takes care of every facet of your life, even down to whether you have a beard or not, and then we expect these guys to go out and effectively start an entire new life from scratch, and all at once, beig realistic even the most well balanced of us would find this difficult.

Both issues boil down to a lack of rehabilitation, re-orientation and training, we are letting these people down, and the government do it in the most callous ways possible. Another factor is the disproportionate amount of ex service personnel who sleep rough, another factor that links the two problems above:
1) can't get / keep job, loss of accomodation, and frequent break up of relationship
2) Homeless leading to petty crime, possible addiction, and violent crime
3) Prison

Then release and then we get a repeat of 2) &3).

Evidence or your claims that former troops are all a bunch of hobos and drug addled criminals please?

What is it a Soldier should be given rehab for?Soldiers are trained to deal with any situation, to think on their feet , the training helps as much in a civillian job as it would in the forces.
I know of not one former soldier who i served alongside who became a drug addled criminal or a violent criminal, over my 16 years there have been a few thousand(at a guess), you are talking about a few dozen??
I too will give consideration to former members of the Armed forces, today I have 2 former members of the Irish Permanent Defence Force(one a former ranger, to see how much he achieves i a day would leave you gobsmacked).I also have 1 former US infantryman plus me a former Brit Infanteer, 4 out of 6 are former military and they work hard, are not hobos, crims or druggies.The other 2 lads are siblings to the former US soldier, they have the worst timekeeping skills, they are selfish and lazy and both are drunkards and Drug abusers.Odd Isnt it, the 2 without any military background are the druggies, drunks and to tell it honestly the liars and theives on the job, those with Military service are effective workers honest and selfless and will always helptheir workmates out.This Thread is simply an attack on former troops and has no basis in fact just based on the prejudices instilled in the people by the BBC via their lies and anti Military propeganda.

[Scooby]

Pauli, I do not think that troops are all drug addled hobos, my ire here is not for the troops, it is for the Govt, my preference is to hire ex forces where i can because having been one i prefer working amongst ex squaddies, and i have found the same as you in terms of timekeeping attention to detail ability to think for themselves and to work round problems. What i have found is that the gov't are limiting the re-orientation for troops leaving to save money, one guy who works for me, had never lived off base, and served for 10 years straight from school and when he left instead of 6 weeks training he got two days.

[Tete123]

On a simelar note i have on 3 occasions had problems with hiring Ex teachers as have many of my buisness associates.They keep wondering off from their position to look at kiddie porn on their Blackberry or other such Internet phones.
It is probably why they are Ex teachers in the first place given the higher likelyhood of paedophiles to choose a Job as a teacher or a socialworker rather than a Brickie....

Evidence to support these claims?

[pauli007001]

Evidence to support these claims?

Which claims?Be specific?

On the Kiddie fiddlers more likely to choose to become Teachers or social workers than to be Brickies i will point you to the regular joint scotland Yard/FBI internet Kiddie porn operations that invariably show that most people who download kiddie porn work in jobs along the lines of Teacher, social worker, Polititian(of all parties, it appears to affect both left and right), Nurses, Drs and the occasional rock star(but the Rock star can give a cock and bull story and get away with it, unless he is Gary Glitter).

[Midas]

Come on Pauli, please get back to the topic. This is about ex-service personnel, not about paedophiles!!

[Tete123]

Which claims?Be specific?

On the Kiddie fiddlers more likely to choose to become Teachers or social workers than to be Brickies i will point you to the regular joint scotland Yard/FBI internet Kiddie porn operations that invariably show that most people who download kiddie porn work in jobs along the lines of Teacher, social worker, Polititian(of all parties, it appears to affect both left and right), Nurses, Drs and the occasional rock star(but the Rock star can give a cock and bull story and get away with it, unless he is Gary Glitter).

Specifically:

"They keep wandering [correct spelling] off from their position to look at kiddie porn on their Blackberry or other such internet phones" Substantiate this claim? Is it at all possible they may have been checking their Ebay listings or updating their Facebook page?

Also reasserting a previous claim and directing me to Operation Ore ( which has been flawed by fraud: Operation Ore flawed by fraud ; Has Operation Ore left a scar on British justice? - Telegraph ) does not constitute evidence. Show a list of prosecuted paedophiles, listing their occupations as Teacher, Social Worker, Nurse or Doctor and your claims will have some validity. Without such evidence it is nothing but a media inspired view based on a inherent desire to shape a negative perception of certain occupations that you feel a constant need to attack.

[Tete123]

Come on Pauli, please get back to the topic. This is about ex-service personnel, not about paedophiles!!

Sorry I have contributed to sideline this debate into one that encompasses paedophiles. I do however feel the need to challenge Pauli on these claims he so often espouses, with a view to creating a negative perception of certain occupations to suit his own arguments.

[pauli007001]

Sorry I have contributed to sideline this debate into one that encompasses paedophiles. I do however feel the need to challenge Pauli on these claims he so often espouses, with a view to creating a negative perception of certain occupations to suit his own arguments.

Just a few sweeping generalisations about a particular proffession Tete, just as Midas is fond of doing about Squaddies.Usually he hits me with an Infraction as soon as i do that though, make sweeping generalisations about Teachers that is, guess to make groundless attacks on squaddies if OK but it is Grossly inappropriate to do the same when it comes to Teachers, definatly no double standard there.

[Tete123]

Just a few sweeping generalisations about a particular proffession Tete, just as Midas is fond of doing about Squaddies.Usually he hits me with an Infraction as soon as i do that though, make sweeping generalisations about Teachers that is, guess to make groundless attacks on squaddies if OK but it is Grossly inappropriate to do the same when it comes to Teachers, definatly no double standard there.

The world is so unfair at times. As we've managed to deviate from the original topic care to enlighten me with a retort to the points I made in response to you?

[pauli007001]

Come on Pauli, please get back to the topic. This is about ex-service personnel, not about paedophiles!!

No it is an attack on former squaddies, something that has remained a theme with you, you obviously dislike squaddies and former squaddies.Your opinions are untrue and as i have said before i believe your claims to be completely untrue.You made the claim in the past that you had hired former SOLDIERS then later changed your story to they were former OFFICERS.

I maintain my (Fact based ) position that a squaddie would be better suited to any civvy job that any civvy would because of their quick thinking, work ethic and determination to sucseed.All of which result from their training and their experience.
One major complaint from ex squaddies is the go slow attitude of many Civvies at work, drag it out, take your time or else you might have to do something else.
Even the assumption that squaddies are isolated from reality or institutionalised is complete tosh.The average squaddie dosnt live on base anymore ans when not deployed in theatre he will probably work a couple of days a week and more often than not have a civvillian Side job!!

[DC]

I don't think he made any unfair claims. Ex service personnel suffer from a variety of disorders in many cases. They have a higher chance of becoming addicted to drugs, being involved in violence and going to prison. While many also suffer injuries, both mental and physical, from the battlefield. The military service also attracts certain personalities, which, in general, are often not condusive to normal society. For example one of my teachers was ex-army, and a complete bastard who bullied students and didn't see fit to do his job properly.

[Midas]

No it is an attack on former squaddies, something that has remained a theme with you, you obviously dislike squaddies and former squaddies.Your opinions are untrue and as i have said before i believe your claims to be completely untrue.You made the claim in the past that you had hired former SOLDIERS then later changed your story to they were former OFFICERS.

What 'theme' Pauli? All I've said is that it's both quite common knowledge, and my personal experience, that many ex-service personnel have a greater difficulty in holding down employment than non-service people. It's a factual statement, hardly an 'attack' on former squaddies!!

[pauli007001]

What 'theme' Pauli? All I've said is that it's both quite common knowledge, and my personal experience, that many ex-service personnel have a greater difficulty in holding down employment than non-service people. It's a factual statement, hardly an 'attack' on former squaddies!!

Yet you cannot provide evidence to support your generalisation that all former squaddies are drug addled violent homeless criminals incapable of holding down a job or unable to think for themselves, you probably believe they are incapable of taking a **** without being told to do it.As i have said your bigotry against squaddies and former squaddies as seen here and on another thread is obvious.It is also groundless and based on hatred and bigotry.

Having said that it is noted that school teachers are a bunch of kiddie fiddlers.

[Midas]

Yet you cannot provide evidence to support your generalisation that all former squaddies are drug addled violent homeless criminals incapable of holding down a job or unable to think for themselves, you probably believe they are incapable of taking a **** without being told to do it.As i have said your bigotry against squaddies and former squaddies as seen here and on another thread is obvious.It is also groundless and based on hatred and bigotry.

Read what I said Pauli!! Just point out to me exactly where I've said that "...all former squaddies are drug addled violent homeless criminals incapable of holding down a job or unable to think for themselves"? Since you don't seem to be able to understand a few simple words, I'll repeat yet again what I originally said - "I can only speak of the few direct experiences I've had with ex-service people in an employment situation, which has been less than successful and in the three instances that we've employed ex-army people, we've had to terminate their employment because they were simply not up to using their initiative and working independently. I have heard from business colleagues in other companies who've also employed ex-service people that they've had similar problems. I'm sure these people aren't lacking in intelligence or work ethic and can only put their failing down to years of unreversed brainwashing in the forces to only do what they're told. If this is something which is true of a substantial number of ex-service personnel, it's perhaps little wonder than so many of them are jobless with all the consequential problems which can be associated with that." If you look for facts about employment problems with ex-service people in the UK I'd have thought that even you could understand the difference between that and your interpretation of it.

Having said that it is noted that school teachers are a bunch of kiddie fiddlers.

Where's your evidence for this totally unsubstantiated rubbish??

[DC]

So i am a violent drug addled criminal then? I am a Hobo with no job and am currently in prison?As are all the thousands of other squaddies i served with over my 16 year career?
You have no clue what you are talking about and your opinions are based in prejudice because one of your teachers was strict, you poor lammykins!!
I know not 1 of my former collegues who are violent criminally insane homless drug addicts, so i can assume you are telling porkies based on some bull**** news programme you once watched when you were allowed to stay up past your bedtime.

I never said every soldier suffered from problems post-service, but you can't deny they do have a much higher likelihood of suffering from the problems I mentioned. It has nothing to do with prejudice, it's fact. In regards to my teacher, I was using him as an example to illustrate that bullying and intimidation occur with far higher frequency in the armed forces than other careers. I was also using him as an example where an ex-servicemen was not suited for his job. Oh and do you consider public humiliation of students to be merely 'strict'?

[pauli007001]

I never said every soldier suffered from problems post-service, but you can't deny they do have a much higher likelihood of suffering from the problems I mentioned. It has nothing to do with prejudice, it's fact. In regards to my teacher, I was using him as an example to illustrate that bullying and intimidation occur with far higher frequency in the armed forces than other careers. I was also using him as an example where an ex-servicemen was not suited for his job. Oh and do you consider public humiliation of students to be merely 'strict'?

I can and will deny that, i know of not one in the thousands of soldiers i served alongside over a 16 year period who had any of the difficulties you mentioned, you are simply feeding off news reports by the BBC who the Nulab crowd have instructed to spread hate of the troops so that people will blame them for the war instead of the polititians, but you know better than I, what is my
Then again im only an ex serviceman and as such should be hung drawn and quartered!!!

[Tete123]

Sorry tete but as you said yourself in a previous thread i am a semi literate fat bastard and a retarded ****, so i guess your ranting and abusive nature may be discussed here, i am free from temper of any kind(where did yours come from).As for foul and abusive, where was the abuse, never have i offered abuse directed at you.Not even in response to the volumes of vicious abuse you hurl, but you cant help it, no self discipline.
Operation Ore showed that the people downloading Kiddie porn were from the occupations i mentioned, that is it. The Middle classes challenged it because culturally it didnt suit em to be considered more likely to commit a particular crime, of course they love to look down their noses at the workers, who they consider to be a bunch of dirty , illiterate retarded ****s(let me know if i missed any out) who will rob em at the drop of a hat.

Can you please link me to a independent report stating the official occupations of those included on the list of suspected paedophiles obtained during Operation Ore. It's also worth noting that far from 'middle class' challenge Operation Ore has been shown by the British legal system to contain many instances of flawed data, that subsequently led to some committing suicide as opposed to living with the social stigma of being considered a paedophile.

Now are you ready to substantiate the claims you've made with something more solid than another mindless rant about the various perceived injustices bestowed upon you by every member you've ever come into contact with on this forum ?

[Midas]

Where is your evidence for your totally unsubstantiated rubbish?

In a previous debate on this very subject you issued me an infraction for saying exactly the same, a sweeping generalisation based on the actions of a tiny minority of people in that profession, but somehow such a sweeping generalisation about soldiers is not considered "grossly innapropriate" just observing your obvious double standard.As i stated i do not believe your tall tale, a soldier would die if he didnt have initiative.Brainwashing a soldier into an automaton or a order zombie dosnt happen, i have gone into detail regarding military training, thats the bit you ignore, it shows your tall tale to be complete and utter unsubstantiated rubbish.But stick to your mindless prejudice if it makes you happy!

Pauli, trying to stick to the subject, I have not made "a sweeping generalisation". I related my own experiences and remarked that it is a widespread problem in the UK - just go and do your own research - there are plenty of links on Google if you care to look - rather than firing back at a tangent at things people say to you.

As for infractions, this is not a matter for open forum, however as you well know, any you have been given, not just by me I might add, have been for arguing with moderators about moderating decisions and the way you often say things, not specifically what you say, in exactly the way you're again doing!

[DC]

I can and will deny that, i know of not one in the thousands of soldiers i served alongside over a 16 year period who had any of the difficulties you mentioned, you are simply feeding off news reports by the BBC who the Nulab crowd have instructed to spread hate of the troops so that people will blame them for the war instead of the polititians, but you know better than I, what is my knowlege based in real life compared to yours that came out of a book or off the telly??

I don't know where you think you're going with this, I haven't blamed the troops for anything.

http://www.nytimes.com/2008/07/08/wo....14322423.html

One of many stories, surely you've heard of the effects of PTSD which now ravage many veterans?

[pauli007001]

Can you please link me to a independent report stating the official occupations of those included on the list of suspected paedophiles obtained during Operation Ore. It's also worth noting that far from 'middle class' challenge Operation Ore has been shown by the British legal system to contain many instances of flawed data, that subsequently led to some committing suicide as opposed to living with the social stigma of being considered a paedophile.

Now are you ready to substantiate the claims you've made with something more solid than another mindless rant about the various perceived injustices bestowed upon you by every member you've ever come into contact with on this forum ?

This isnt about Me, its about Midas and his hatred of the troops.
As for operation ORE in 2002 it was shown in all the papers that the most, ah why bother, you already read it the last time it was discussed about 18 or more months ago, go and look it up your self, I aint your servant, get off your lazy backside and find it your self.
But i did show you the BBC report some time ago and a report by ITN, it mentioned that the plod running the investigation into the two Girls who were killed by a teaching assistant and her care taker lover was also caught up in the Investigation for downloading kiddie porn.Surely you remember that.Which leads me to one group in the most likely being Plods, oddly enough they would also be considered middle class.......

As for your last allegation, again this is not about me, but for percieved injustices, i i called you half of the things you have called me i would have been permanently banned long ago.Lets have an overview of your insults shall we.You claim that i am, a fat one legged **** that would be C U N T, i am also according to you a ****ing retarded alchoholic, a ****ing liar who has no wife, a **** of various descriptions a mother ****er and if i recall correctly somehow responsible for my own mother death (what was it again, i ****ed her to death with my carcinogenic dick, of course you deleted that along with almost all the abuse you hurled, dougie told me that you deleted a lot of your abusive posts some time ago).I take issue with your abusive and vicious nature and have never claimed any personal aggrievance against any one else, just you, because of the kind of nasty and distastfull abuse you have posted.

Any more Abuse? You can rely on your buddies in Admin to delete it after a day or two to avoid being seen for what you trully are, the most vicious and nasty abusive individual i have ever in my life ever encountered( and i spent 5 or 6 years working in a forensic psychiatric unit called the castle hill unit at st lukes hospital in Huddersfield.I nursed rapists paedophiles, baby snatchers, murderers, wife beaters and god knows what kind of scum who played the cards and got off easy, all were in my opinion, nice and more pleasant individuals than you, non would stoop as low as you have.

[pauli007001]

I don't know where you think you're going with this, I haven't blamed the troops for anything.

http://www.nytimes.com/2008/07/08/wo....14322423.html

One of many stories, surely you've heard of the effects of PTSD which now ravage many veterans?

PTSD dosnt exist, it is a lie made up by the BBC and hollywood to excuse the attacks against the military made by those types.You types in fact.

[Midas]

This isnt about Me, its about Midas and his hatred of the troops.

That is utter rubbish Pauli, and you well know it! I can't see why anyone would want to join the armed forces, nor do I agree that as a country we should be involved in either Iraq or Afghanistan. I also have concerns about the psychological state of a lot of troops when they come off active service and are back into the wider society, but all that's a far cry from saying "I hate the troops"!!

[Tete123]

This isnt about Me, its about Midas and his hatred of the troops.
As for operation ORE in 2002 it was shown in all the papers that the most, ah why bother, you already read it the last time it was discussed about 18 or more months ago, go and look it up your self, I aint your servant, get off your lazy backside and find it your self.
But i did show you the BBC report some time ago and a report by ITN, it mentioned that the plod running the investigation into the two Girls who were killed by a teaching assistant and her care taker lover was also caught up in the Investigation for downloading kiddie porn.Surely you remember that.Which leads me to one group in the most likely being Plods, oddly enough they would also be considered middle class.......

As for your last allegation, again this is not about me, but for percieved injustices, i i called you half of the things you have called me i would have been permanently banned long ago.Lets have an overview of your insults shall we.You claim that i am, a fat one legged **** that would be C U N T, i am also according to you a ****ing retarded alchoholic, a ****ing liar who has no wife, a **** of various descriptions a mother ****er and if i recall correctly somehow responsible for my own mother death (what was it again, i ****ed her to death with my carcinogenic dick, of course you deleted that along with almost all the abuse you hurled, dougie told me that you deleted a lot of your abusive posts some time ago).I take issue with your abusive and vicious nature and have never claimed any personal aggrievance against any one else, just you, because of the kind of nasty and distastfull abuse you have posted.

How many times do you post calling for others to provide evidence to substantiate their claims, yet when the shoe is on the other foot you get all narky and refuse to do the same. Luckily for you I tend to research opinions before I post them and thus I discovered that Operation Ore, the much heralded sting on paedophilia by the FBI and Scotland Yard was flawed, with many of the names being victims of identity fraud - not so hot on victims rights when it goes against the fundamentals of your argument are you. Maybe those falsely accused should have armed themselves and taken vengeance on the authorities who failed to ascertain the truth behind their accusations; accusations lets not forget that will stick whether based on fact or not. I'm not surprised that many resorted to suicide when faced with the charge of paedophilia, that had the potential to break up their families, make wives suspicious of leaving their children with their husbands and in a society that predominantly believes there's no smoke without fire! That you simply reject these men and condemn them without fact or evidence is indicative of the extreme hypocrisy that both you and society display and further solidifies my argument that once tarred always tarred.

I never said teachers and care assistants weren't capable of extreme cruelty to children - Huntley being an example. I seem to remember their being a significant number of serving and ex military personnel on the Operation Ore lists - does that mean ALL soldiers are a risk or have a greater propensity to target children? Of course it doesn't and your blanket assertion that teaching is somehow infected with paedophiles is void of any reason.

As for the last section of your post - yes I did say most of those things, sometimes on the main forum, mostly in TOP where flaming is permitted. I dispute that I ever accused you of being responsible for your mothers death.

[Kiwi 1691]

I can't see why anyone would want to join the armed forces,

Alot, probably don't have much choice career wise.

[Opinionated]

PTSD dosnt exist, it is a lie made up by the BBC and hollywood to excuse the attacks against the military made by those types.You types in fact.

Do you really think that Pauli? I know a few soldiers who have recently returned from tours in Afgahnistan in right states, as you would expect of anyone returning having picked up their best mate piece by piece, it's no reflection whatsoever on them personally and with some counselling I am sure they will be able to come to terms with the horror and lead perfectly well adjusted and useful lives from this point on. The thing is of course though that they are extremely lucky far too many squaddies are discharged with little to no help and although readily accepted back into the bossom of family, are forever "changed" by an experience only other personnel can truely understand. Which makes me wonder Pauli clearly you and those ex- servicemen you employ enjoy an excellent working relationship, could this partly be because you share an understanding and cultural shorthand due to your shared experiences? If so would a possible solution be for more investment in "demob job" programmes?

[pauli007001]

That is utter rubbish Pauli, and you well know it! I can't see why anyone would want to join the armed forces, nor do I agree that as a country we should be involved in either Iraq or Afghanistan. I also have concerns about the psychological state of a lot of troops when they come off active service and are back into the wider society, but all that's a far cry from saying "I hate the troops"!!

No its hate, you hate the troops and the veterans, Why else would YOU start this thread??

People Join for many reasons, often financial, today when the UK is crippled by recession many join so they can scrape together enough to survive, particulary those in areas like Huddersfield or Halifax where even the minimum wage jobs are dissapearing.Others out of family tradition, some because its what they always wanted to do, its different for all of the different people(yes they are actuall people real people, humans, no really they are no different to any other people Midas).
Just remember that if there were no squaddies, you would have been forced into the Army, you should be thanking squaddies not abusing them with untruths.

[pauli007001]

Do you really think that Pauli? I know a few soldiers who have recently returned from tours in Afgahnistan in right states, as you would expect of anyone returning having picked up their best mate piece by piece, it's no reflection whatsoever on them personally and with some counselling I am sure they will be able to come to terms with the horror and lead perfectly well adjusted and useful lives from this point on. The thing is of course though that they are extremely lucky far too many squaddies are discharged with little to no help and although readily accepted back into the bossom of family, are forever "changed" by an experience only other personnel can truely understand. Which makes me wonder Pauli clearly you and those ex- servicemen you employ enjoy an excellent working relationship, could this partly be because you share an understanding and cultural shorthand due to your shared experiences? If so would a possible solution be for more investment in "demob job" programmes?

PTSD dosnt exist, counselling is nonsense.Yes people are changed by their experiences in the army, but they are also changed by their experiences in the NHS or at Mc Donalds, do those same people suffer from PTSD because their job and life experiences have changed em?

I have nightmares most nights about getting killed at work, usually drowning in a tunnel flood or getting crushed in a collapse, yet that is normal.

I also have nightmares often about digging up the mass graves in Kosovo in order to gather evidence for prosecution of the perpetrators, i had to photograph the grave site before during and after excavation, then photograph each body as it ws removed, men, women and Children.One you would call PTSD the other is just work dreams.Whats the difference??

[Tete123]

PTSD dosnt exist, counselling is nonsense.Yes people are changed by their experiences in the army, but they are also changed by their experiences in the NHS or at Mc Donalds, do those same people suffer from PTSD because their job and life experiences have changed em?

I have nightmares most nights about getting killed at work, usually drowning in a tunnel flood or getting crushed in a collapse, yet that is normal.

I also have nightmares often about digging up the mass graves in Kosovo in order to gather evidence for prosecution of the perpetrators, i had to photograph the grave site before during and after excavation, then photograph each body as it ws removed, men, women and Children.One you would call PTSD the other is just work dreams.Whats the difference??

Isn't it narrow minded and slightly arrogant to believe simply because you choose not to accept PTSD personally affects you that it stands to reason that PTSD therefore doesn't exist. I don't have cancer, but I don't dispute it's existence because I don't suffer it personally.

[Opinionated]

have moved a load of posts to ToP, please try and keep this thread on topic and debate the point not the person!

PTSD dosnt exist, counselling is nonsense.Yes people are changed by their experiences in the army, but they are also changed by their experiences in the NHS or at Mc Donalds, do those same people suffer from PTSD because their job and life experiences have changed em?

Following a particularly nasty incident they might well be considered as suffering from PTSD yes, this isn't some modern phenomenon that should just be dismissed look at how many WW1 and 2 vets sadly spent the rest of their days in assylums. Talking through can help and in more severe cases something as strong as anti psychotic medication is needed for a time. Thankfully we no longer administer EST in an effort to get a man to "pull himself together".

I have nightmares most nights about getting killed at work, usually drowning in a tunnel flood or getting crushed in a collapse, yet that is normal.

I also have nightmares often about digging up the mass graves in Kosovo in order to gather evidence for prosecution of the perpetrators, i had to photograph the grave site before during and after excavation, then photograph each body as it ws removed, men, women and Children.One you would call PTSD the other is just work dreams.Whats the difference??

I'm no psychologist Pauli but I think a Freudian analyst would say that both violent nightmares were connected to an Oedipal complex (sorry bad attempt at humour), seriously for a second I think you and other ex servicemen who live with recurring nightmares of this sort (and I imagine the work one is possibly related in your subconcious to your time in the army as it is about a violent death) are either unusually strong or lucky enough to find the right emotional support not to let it effect your everyday life. However, how are we going to help those who aren't as strong?

[Midas]

No its hate, you hate the troops and the veterans, Why else would YOU start this thread??

People Join for many reasons, often financial, today when the UK is crippled by recession many join so they can scrape together enough to survive, particulary those in areas like Huddersfield or Halifax where even the minimum wage jobs are dissapearing.Others out of family tradition, some because its what they always wanted to do, its different for all of the different people(yes they are actuall people real people, humans, no really they are no different to any other people Midas).
Just remember that if there were no squaddies, you would have been forced into the Army, you should be thanking squaddies not abusing them with untruths.

Sometimes I really feel I'm bashing my head against a brick wall with you Pauli! If you'd read my original post properly you'd have seen it was an expansion of something Uncon had said elsewhere, and I simply asked "I'd be interested in hearing other people's views on this subject; are we as a society failing our ex-service personnel once they leave the armed forces and return to civilian life or should the finger of blame (assuming we think there is blame) be pointed at the armed forces themselves for often dehumanising their personnel in times of conflict then returning them to society without having made any attempts to rehumanise them?" Where in that, or in the following recital of my limited personal experience concerning their employment, or indeed anywhere else, have I said anything about hating the troops and veterans? Come on, you keep making the allegation, so either be specific about it and quote what words I've said and in what post and in what context, or drop it and move on.

[Don]

I'm no psychologist Pauli but I think a Freudian analyst would say that both violent nightmares were connected to an Oedipal complex

Especially the one about the "tunnel"

(sorry bad attempt at humour)

Me too. not.

...seriously for a second I think you and other ex servicemen who live with recurring nightmares of this sort are either unusually strong or lucky enough to find the right emotional support not to let it effect your everyday life.

I can loudly second that about the "right emotional support".

[pauli007001]

Isn't it narrow minded and slightly arrogant to believe simply because you choose not to accept PTSD personally affects you that it stands to reason that PTSD therefore doesn't exist. I don't have cancer, but I don't dispute it's existence because I don't suffer it personally.

I dont accept that PTSD exists because it is an invented condition used as a stick by lefties to add more ammo to their anti military Armory, it a stick to beat the troops with.

I didnt mention not having it myself so why do you invent this rubbish??

I also dont have Dementia with Lewy Bodies but that exists, it shows itself in the manifestation of Lewy Bodies in the brain of a sufferer.PTSD has no physical symptoms nor does it have any possible method of diagnosis other than the guess work of a quack.

[pauli007001]

have moved a load of posts to ToP, please try and keep this thread on topic and debate the point not the person!

Following a particularly nasty incident they might well be considered as suffering from PTSD yes, this isn't some modern phenomenon that should just be dismissed look at how many WW1 and 2 vets sadly spent the rest of their days in assylums. Talking through can help and in more severe cases something as strong as anti psychotic medication is needed for a time. Thankfully we no longer administer EST in an effort to get a man to "pull himself together".


I'm no psychologist Pauli but I think a Freudian analyst would say that both violent nightmares were connected to an Oedipal complex (sorry bad attempt at humour), seriously for a second I think you and other ex servicemen who live with recurring nightmares of this sort (and I imagine the work one is possibly related in your subconcious to your time in the army as it is about a violent death) are either unusually strong or lucky enough to find the right emotional support not to let it effect your everyday life. However, how are we going to help those who aren't as strong?

People do not have PTSD, perhaps you could tell me what are the physical manifestations of the condition (what do DRs use to diagnose PTSD), what changes are observed in the Brain.
In Alzheimers there is a noticable slowing of brain function due to the reduction in cells, it can be measured physically.

In DLB the Dewy Bodies can be measured.

In parkinsons the levels of dopamine are seen to fluctuate.

What Physical manifestation is used to diagnose PTSD, or is it just a bit of guess work by a quack?

Many Psychiatrists will admit that their branch of medcine is more art than science and that treatment is based more on guess work and trial and error than exact chemical science!!

[pauli007001]

Sometimes I really feel I'm bashing my head against a brick wall with you Pauli! If you'd read my original post properly you'd have seen it was an expansion of something Uncon had said elsewhere, and I simply asked "I'd be interested in hearing other people's views on this subject; are we as a society failing our ex-service personnel once they leave the armed forces and return to civilian life or should the finger of blame (assuming we think there is blame) be pointed at the armed forces themselves for often dehumanising their personnel in times of conflict then returning them to society without having made any attempts to rehumanise them?" Where in that, or in the following recital of my limited personal experience concerning their employment, or indeed anywhere else, have I said anything about hating the troops and veterans? Come on, you keep making the allegation, so either be specific about it and quote what words I've said and in what post and in what context, or drop it and move on.

You have said here and on other threads that (basically) former troops are stupid, useless and lazy, to say that about a group of people is Hate.
You hate squaddies it is obvious, everyone can see it.
Once they leave the army, why not execute em, or lock em up, how would that work for you?

[Barry]

Pauli, PTSD is an existing diagnosis.
What is P.T.S.D
Or perhaps you are now Doctor Pauli, are you?

[pauli007001]

Pauli, PTSD is an existing diagnosis.
What is P.T.S.D
Or perhaps you are now Doctor Pauli, are you?

No Im still a Mason( and Amazing as well(think of amazing in a connemara accent)).

PTSD is an invented diagnosis with no scientific basis, it is Imagined by DRs who didnt do well in Med school and as a result had to become trick cyclists.Psychiatry is more art that science.

[Barry]

No Im still a Mason( and Amazing as well(think of amazing in a connemara accent)).

PTSD is an invented diagnosis with no scientific basis, it is Imagined by DRs who didnt do well in Med school and as a result had to become trick cyclists.Psychiatry is more art that science.

Thank you so much for putting me right on this subject.
Your superior knowledge, because you say so, is so useful to everyone on the forum.
Whatever you do, don't leave us.

[pauli007001]

Thank you so much for putting me right on this subject.
Your superior knowledge, because you say so, is so useful to everyone on the forum.
Whatever you do, don't leave us.

Every thing i said is fact, many psychiatrists will agree that they see symptoms and guess at the condition then by guesswork and Trial and error attempt to controll the symptoms.The symptoms of Mental Illness and PTSD would be the behaviour of a person and the persons response to questions.The norm for Assesment would be Johnsons but some have used the erickson assesment tool.Of course they only work if the patient cooperates with the DR making the assesment but even those tools allow only for a more standardised assesment.In general medcine a symptom is seen and all possible causes are investigated, when a DR sees the physical cause of the symptom he removes or alters it, that is science, Psychiatry is art and guesswork.
So instead of smaremy sarcasm why not describe what is the Physical manifestation of PTSD, how is it diagnosed?

As you claim to be such an expert in PTSD and psychiatry........................

[Opinionated]

Every thing i said is fact, many psychiatrists will agree that they see symptoms and guess at the condition then by guesswork and Trial and error attempt to controll the symptoms.The symptoms of Mental Illness and PTSD would be the behaviour of a person and the persons response to questions.The norm for Assesment would be Johnsons but some have used the erickson assesment tool.Of course they only work if the patient cooperates with the DR making the assesment but even those tools allow only for a more standardised assesment.In general medcine a symptom is seen and all possible causes are investigated, when a DR sees the physical cause of the symptom he removes or alters it, that is science, Psychiatry is art and guesswork.

Doesn't that basically describe any branch of medicine though? Pauli are you a scientologist?

[Barry]

As you claim to be such an expert in PTSD and psychiatry........................

No, you are lying Pauli, please show me where I made this claim.

[Midas]

No, you are lying Pauli, please show me where I made this claim.

You possibly haven't been here long enough to know that Pauli will make all kinds of claims that various people said all kinds of things in past posts, whereas in fact they've not said any such thing...... If you're not careful, the rest of the thread will then be along the lines of "yes you did, no I didn't", getting further and further away from the original topic! Right Pauli?

[Barry]

You possibly haven't been here long enough to know that Pauli will make all kinds of claims that various people said all kinds of things in past posts, whereas in fact they've not said any such thing...... If you're not careful, the rest of the thread will then be along the lines of "yes you did, no I didn't", getting further and further away from the original topic! Right Pauli?

Yes, fair comment, Midas, I'll put my mental "ignore" filter on.
Sometimes it doesn't work and I start to bite!
The whole thread is pants.

[pauli007001]

Doesn't that basically describe any branch of medicine though? Pauli are you a scientologist?

Not at all, for example( as previously stated) a physical test can be made to diagnose Parkinsons, Alzheimers and demential with Lewy bodies, there is physical evidence of the condition be it a lack of dopamine in the brain, lewy bodies in the brain or simply fewer braincells.
Diabetes can be diagnosed when the body stops braking down sugars but PTSD has NO PHYSICAL means to prove it exists.How is PTSD diagnosed, what characteristics does the illness have?
If the person diagnosed had not served in the military what would the diagnosis be?

[pauli007001]

No, you are lying Pauli, please show me where I made this claim.

Show me where i claimed to be a DR.

http://www.politic.co.uk/armed-force...html#post96851
Or indeed your sarcasm indicating that you know much better than I
http://www.politic.co.uk/armed-force...html#post96880

What was the old saying about pots and kettles and being Black???

[Barry]

Show me where i claimed to be a DR.

http://www.politic.co.uk/armed-force...html#post96851
Or indeed your sarcasm indicating that you know much better than I
http://www.politic.co.uk/armed-force...html#post96880

What was the old saying about pots and kettles and being Black???

*sticks fingers in ears*
LA LA LA LA LA