This is a discussion on Just curious, what do you think of this? within the Coffee Room forums, part of the The House of Commons category; a picture I found on the Beeb;not sure what to make of it. Not sure it's absolutely necessary, I mean ...
Senior MP
a picture I found on the Beeb;not sure what to make of it. Not sure it's absolutely necessary, I mean we all know there were gay soldiers then as there are now - so why make a point of it I don't know.....
BBC News | Enlarged Image
Do you hear that? That's the sound of no one caring - anon
They should remove it asap before other minorities latch onto the idea , rainbow of colours at the cenotaph next year
The whole point of the traditional poppy is to represent all those that died . I think most military personnel who were gay would want to be identified with their comrades in arms , black ,white, gay or straight not singled out because of their sexuality . Remembrance day should not be used to further a particular group/minority's agenda ... shame on them .
I find it quite strange how if you associate homosexuality with pink, you are accused of being politically incorrect.
But it's fine when they do stuff like this.
Senior MP
I must admit I think it's all just pointless point scoring (pardon the pun). You know I back the rights of homosexuals because of my cousins; but I do think this is going too far. You'll soon find the anti Iraq war brigade will be leaving white ones next year.Originally Posted by Albion 69
I am surprised that the local British Legion allowed this even to go ahead, or to stay there. I tried to make my original post neutral - but to be honest this has really made me angry.
Do you hear that? That's the sound of no one caring - anon
As usual it is a militant minority within a minority who get peoples backs up , they are always on the lookout for something that could cause them offence . If they can't find anything they do something to provoke a reaction .. like this , and will scream blue (pink) murder if it is removed !!
I am also surprised the British Legion agreed to this (assuming they knew) but in these PC times , dare they express an opinion ? ... makes you wonder what they were fighting for
Hey there is nothing wrong with white poppies I wore one for many years. The insult is not to remember at all. White poppies show respect for fallen soldiers; however many (like me) feel remembrance services are in danger of making war seem glorious (at my school they shot off cannons and made it seem like war was good). The fact is many poor people died in WWI coz of a spat between rich royals in Europe. It was a horrendous waste of young life (many were shot in the back by their own sid for being scared). There is nothing heroic or glorious about war. It is simply a waste of life. If this makes u angry. Frankly I don't give one. Coz I feel very strongly about this.I must admit I think it's all just pointless point scoring (pardon the pun). You know I back the rights of homosexuals because of my cousins; but I do think this is going too far. You'll soon find the anti Iraq war brigade will be leaving white ones next year.
I am surprised that the local British Legion allowed this even to go ahead, or to stay there. I tried to make my original post neutral - but to be honest this has really made me angry.
I have no disrespect for soldiers but I don't think they are heroes or glorious coz they were sent to die by rich elites. There is nothing great about this at all. In fact it is sick. This is what the white poopy means and I am very upset u cannot find them anymore
Senior MP
I quite agree, A69. I watched the Cenotaph service this morning and found it very sad; those three elderly men who fought probably the most bloodiest and brutal war in human history - and for what?As usual it is a militant minority within a minority who get peoples backs up , they are always on the lookout for something that could cause them offence . If they can't find anything they do something to provoke a reaction .. like this , and will scream blue (pink ) murder if it is removed !!
I am also surprised the British Legion agreed to this (assuming they knew) but in these PC times , dare they express an opinion ? ... makes you wonder what they were fighting for
For a government that is slowly whittling away the very freedoms they fought for; fear of being alone at night in case they're robbed (not that anything would happen to those who did the robbery); the stark choice of having to choose between freezing to death or eating. Of finding themselves homeless and/or destitute because the government don't feel they're worth a decent income once they're pensioned off.
The list is endless, and I watched those three men today with mixture of immense pride and yet also deep dispair.
If we could take those men back to 1914, I wonder if those men would still fight or whether they would lay down their arms and tell their comrades to do the same. After all, what have they got to show for the sacrifices they and their fallen comrades have made.
Do you hear that? That's the sound of no one caring - anon
They would have to. they were conscripted. No choice. If they refused to fight they would get shot in the back by their CO as a great many did
If we could take those men back to 1914, I wonder if those men would still fight or whether they would lay down their arms and tell their comrades to do the same. After all, what have they got to show for the sacrifices they and their fallen comrades have made.
Senior MP
The white poppy, Nutter, was meant to signify the white feather and is the biggest insult you can give to a soldier. It would be better not to wear a poppy at all than wear a white one. By wearing a white poppy you are basically calling them cowards.
The rememberance services are not trying to glamorise war Nutter; if you watched them properly you would see they are there purely to commemorate the dead and celebrate the living amongst the armed services.
Well, you're entitled to your opinion Nutter; but it does indeed make me angry - mainly because all those young men you so callously dismiss gave their lives that you might have the freedom to hold such views. But frankly I don't give one either that you don't care about our armed forces; thank God views like yours are in the minority.
Oh and I feel very strongly about this too as you might have gathered. I lost family in the first world war - I had a great Uncle that was forever badly affected by mustard gas and who lost his two brothers on the Somme; so I find throw away views like yours very upsetting.
The soldiers are indeed heroes, Nutter, because they are fighting for their country when a lot of the socalled 'Great' British public would run a mile rather than pick up a gun and defend themselves. They are heroes, Nutter, because they gave their lives to stop evil men who aimed to destroy us just for being who we are. Most particularly in the second world war, they aimed to stop a man who wished to enslave the world and wipe out every single person of Jewish blood.
They are heroes, Nutter, because, every day, they stand ready to protect us - even those of us who treat them with contempt.
I for one am very, very glad the hateful white poppies are no longer around. A bigger insult to our brave forces you couldn't wish to find; you might as well spit in their faces if you wear a white poppy.
Disrespect this government if you wish - but not our armed forces; they do not deserve it.
Do you hear that? That's the sound of no one caring - anon
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This is not true the white poppy has nothing to do with the white feather. I know about this as my grandad got the white feather as he was discharged during ww2 for health reasons.
I would wear a white poppy with pride. You dont know what you are on about!
These men were forced to fight. That is not heroic!! As I said many were shot in the back for not wanting to fight. They are the heroes!
I did not dissmiss anyone . I said they were fored to fight and die by rich elites and that is tragic. I support the army with my white poppy. i remember their sacrifice. bbut i understand it u do not seem to. It was a tragedy, not a cause for celebration. I have been to many rem services and they are in danger of making it seem like a heroic thing when it was just a waste of young life
Senior MP
Not as many as you think; you should read the history books. A number did get shot for desertion; which was wrong as it was more down to shellshock - particularly towards the end of the war when boys as young as fifteen were volunteering.
Oh and that's the thing; they volunteered in the first world war right up until 1916 when the French army - almost on their knees after Verdun - needed relief. Even then conscientious objectors were allowed to go to tribunal and put their case for exemption.
As it turns out there were around 7000 men who were granted non-combatant duties, while a further 3000 ended up in special work camps. 6000 were, sadly, imprisoned. Some forty two were sent to France to potentially face the threat of a firing squad;by obviously refusing to fight when they got there. This threat was more real to thirty five who were formally sentenced to death, but they were immediately reprieved, with ten years penal servitude substituted.
As for firing squads there were executions of 306 British and Commonwealth soldiers from 1914-1918. Some were for the crimes of desertion and cowardice and these charges still remain controversial today - many people today feel shellshock was the most likely reason that these men baulked in the end.
The executions included 25 Canadians, 22 Irishmen and 5 New Zealanders.
That 306 was out of 5 million men who joined the armed services.
Do you hear that? That's the sound of no one caring - anon
Attitiudes like yours made 15yr old boys feel they should fight for the rich who never did anything for them. Is this a good thing that we should celebrate??
You think they deserved this I take it? For not wanting to fight a war for the rich elites of Europe??As it turns out there were around 7000 men who were granted non-combatant duties, while a further 3000 ended up in special work camps. 6000 were, sadly, imprisoned. Some forty two were sent to France to potentially face the threat of a firing squad;by obviously refusing to fight when they got there. This threat was more real to thirty five who were formally sentenced to death, but they were immediately reprieved, with ten years penal servitude substituted.
The executions included 25 Canadians, 22 Irishmen and 5 New Zealanders.As for firing squads there were executions of 306 British and Commonwealth soldiers from 1914-1918. Some were for the crimes of desertion and cowardice and these charges still remain controversial today - many people today feel shellshock was the most likely reason that these men baulked in the end.
That 306 was out of 5 million men who joined the armed services.[/quote]
Most historians feel these estimates are below the mark by as much as 300%. But we can never know coz it was never something that people kept record of for obvious reasons
Senior MP
Right I looked this up. The white poppy was brought out in 1933 to show that you were against war and conflict. It is now worn by people who want 'no more war' and wish to take a pacifist route.
Most forces take a very dark view of the white poppy; indeed the Canadian Legion was considering taking legal action to stop the sale of the white poppies, such was their hatred of it.
The white poppy was thought up by people who, when their wish of having the black centre of the red poppy reading 'no more war', was refused brought out the white ones in retaliation. It is NOT worn by most people who support the fallen soldiers, nor is it EVER worn by ex-servicemen.
I've even found a site that sells the damn things - so they've not died the death I thought they had.
It is heroic that they fought for their country; particularly when most were volunteers! The heroes are the ones who face the hell of war head on and gave their lives for the freedom you use to spout this opinion.These men were forced to fight. That is not heroic!! As I said many were shot in the back for not wanting to fight. They are the heroes!
Your attitude is not one of support; and wearing the white poppy is not either. As I've already said the armed forces HATE IT, by wearing one you might as well spit in their faces. It is the mark of a coward as far as the forces are concerned and so to give one to a member of the armed forces is not an action of 'support'.I did not dissmiss anyone . I said they were fored to fight and die by rich elites and that is tragic. I support the army with my white poppy. i remember their sacrifice. bbut i understand it u do not seem to. It was a tragedy, not a cause for celebration. I have been to many rem services and they are in danger of making it seem like a heroic thing when it was just a waste of young life
You do not understand their sacrifice, Nutter, if you did you wouldn't be spouting this sort of view. NO ONE celebrates war, Nutter, as well you would know if you actually watched what happens at a rememberance service. They are remembering the dead and the sacrifices they made and only celebrating the fact that others survived the horror of war.
You may have been to the services, Nutter, but it would seem you didn't actually take in what was going on around you. The heroics are about young men giving their lives so that you might have the freedom to stand there and say it was all a waste of time and their deaths were pointless. Under the Nazis I doubt you'd have had that luxury. Perhaps bearing that in mind would be something worth thinking about in future!
Do you hear that? That's the sound of no one caring - anon
Senior MP
No attitudes like yours make me wonder what the poor sods died for! They gave their lives for your freedom Nutter; the freedom you use here to condemn what they did!
NO ONE is celebrating war for God's sake! They are merely remembering the dead and the sacrifices they made for us! I think that is a GOOD THING - we should never forget!
I don't think ANYONE deserves to die -not in war and not in peace time. So that blows one theory of yours about me out doesn't it?You think they deserved this I take it? For not wanting to fight a war for the rich elites of Europe??
They were fighting for our freedom in both wars, Nutter, whether you wish to accept that or not.
And of course you would much rather believe a historian with no facts at his disposal just his 'estimates' than hard copy records - because that historian feeds into your own theory about the wars.Most historians feel these estimates are below the mark by as much as 300%. But we can never know coz it was never something that people kept record of for obvious reasons
All I know is I watched my great uncle suffer the affects of mustard gas right up until the day he died. All I know is MILLIONS of men died in both wars so that you have the freedom to voice your opinions about their sacrifices even today.
Perhaps, instead of dismissing their sacrifices, you should be more grateful for them. Under the nazis you would never have the freedom to denegrate the forces as you do now. It is only by the deaths of millions of men that you have that freedom now.
Last edited by Trouble43; 12-11-2008 at 01:21 PM.
Do you hear that? That's the sound of no one caring - anon
Senior MP
It is a sad reflection of today's warped, yet self-righteous and know-all society that this discussion should be taking place today of all days.
Come on Mr. Nutter, remember the fallen today. Your idealistic leftist mantra could surely wait until tomorrow.
Banned
The White poppy shows a desire to see an end to all war,it is a pacifist symbol.The Red poppy represents 3 things,the blood shed(red)mourning(the black)and the fact that many battlefields post ww1 had poppies grow on the after the war.The white poppy is not an insult directly,however does the money paid for the white poppy go toward any assistance to those hurt or injured in war or to assist those widowed or orphaned by war?If not it could be considered such,although if the money were spent lobbying parliment to allow out troops to come home,that would not be a problem in my view.A pacifist is not a coward,probably braver than the average "HERO" dying is easy,anyone can do it,particulary in war it takes a genius to stay alive,me i am alive today because i was always afraid of death,i never backed down or ran away,i assessed and surpressed,kind of hard to use this against illegal combattents acting like civillians and committins suicide attacks.In this i feel for our troops today,remember them as much as those who have already died for to many in battle death would be a happy release(i know)!!!!!!But the white poppy is not an insult,it may be no more that an irrelivant profiteering scheme when it is exposed to the clear light of day!!
Thank you Pauli. U may be right about where the money goes. To be honest I am not sure about that. I thought a % was donated to the (red) poppy appeal. I am glad that a former member of the armed forces does not take this as an insult as it is the last thing it is meant to be. I should also mention that I always donate to the poppy appeal (but never wear a poppy unless it is a white one) as I do think we should support injured vets but this is not what 11/11 is all about. I never said I had anything against helping those injured or widowed by war. I am all for that and behind it 100% What I am more skeptical of is the ceremonies of remembrance, I'll try and explain why.
The thing that bugs me about all this is that it is somehow a betrayal to the army to think that war is waste of young life. I would think my remarks are actually on the side of the army. I get angry this time of year thinking back to WWI when so many young boys were either forced or felt they should volunteer to fight in a pointless war on behalf of the real cowards (The royal families of Europe) who did not have the guts to fight on the front lines (apart from Tsar Nicholas II and that was more a show of being at the front I don't think he actually did an fighting). These pussy royals had a row and then sent in poor working class young people to die in their thousands on their behalf. We lost a whole generation of men and what for? This was pointless war - It also stoked the fires of communism all over the world for obvious reasons.
There is no point pretending that they made a 'sacrifice' for any ideal or to protect our country or were in any way heroic. It is just a stupid way of twisting history that encourages more war and more death. They died for as they would say 'for King and Country' except the country was not really in any danger. They died for the rich. There is a sea of blood on the hands of the royal families of Europe, Rem Services mask over this fact (maybe not deliberately) but they do. They sing songs of glory and shoot guns in salute and NEVER do they say it was a pointless waste of human life. Never do they say that the Royals have a lot to answer for. Never do they say that these men were exploited. Never do they even reflect on what the war was about (just assume it was in a just cause) . Never do they do anything to make sure our young men of today only fight to protect our country (that is thier job) hence we have lost so many in Iraq.
It is becoz many ARE TOO MUCH OF A COWARD TO SPEAK OUT AGAINST WAR - Scared of people like Trouble! Yes I think (this is just my opinion) that in some way (and this is nobody's fault in particular) that the rhetoric around remembrance silences voices that dissent against war and allow for us to fight wars like Iraq. If you point out a war is pointless or an exploitation u'll get people like Trouble saying u are insulting the army (nothing could be further from the truth). When we went in to Iraq loads of people said 'now we must stop criticizing the war and behind our troops'. Remember that???? Like to condemn the Iraq war was somehow being a traitor to the country. Like it is being a traitor to say that war is a pointless waste of life. That our soldiers (who are often poor working class kids) get sent to die to defend the rich.
This is my central point. Remembrance services perform an ideological function to silence dissent against war. Again this is not deliberate and i do not blame anyone for it but it is my analysis of the situation as it is. Trouble's remarks are evidence of this. Remembrance services and the poppy are ideological devices that mask over all that war is really about and glorify the notion of 'sacrifice' that they draw from Christian ideology. It is a very clever ideology as it it pays lip service to the waste of life and makes sense of this as a 'glorious sacrifice' - very clever indeed as this dampens dissent and contestation of their ideology, the Christian element is vital here. Only Christians could see poor people sacrificing themselves for a higher (or richer) power as a good thing as it stinks of Christian imagery. Anyway these ceremonies and practices allow people to demonise the left and those against wars as unpatriotic and traitors whilst encouraging the young to think of fallen soldiers as heroes and thus encourage a whole new generation to do the same. This was actually made explicit at my school but most were too stupid to see how the idea of remembering gets re-articulated as an attempt to indoctrinate youth (to see this point u really need to attend a service at a military school or a school with strong military connections). Do i have a problem with this? You bet a I do. A whopping big one!!
This is the ideologuical crap I talk about in the post below.
1. WWI had nothing to do with the Nazis. This is again the a result of ideology. You have to make a slip between my remarks about WWI and the Nazis to make your point. By being about all wars 11/11 (which was WWI in case u don't know your history as I am starting to wonder) services (that claim to be about all wars) mask over wars of exploitation by saying 'we fought the Nazis' - again very clever - very insidious - I can see why people get sucked in. WW2 is maybe the only justified war this country has fought in in the last 300 years, and even then it was partly our fauly and the fault of WWI and the Versailles Treaty that Hitler ever got to power in the first place . Maybe they should mention this at remembrance services 'We remember all the people that died in WWI, just so we could help Hitler come to opower and kill a whole new generation of our kids!!'
2. You can say 'oh but we are just remembering the dead'. NO - It is far more insidious than that as |I show below it is about silencing dissent and indoctrinating the young (oh and re-writing history)
3. See how u take my remarks that are 100% in favour of the armed forces as Pauli, as former solider, can see but you can't becoz u r blinded by the very powerful mix of Christianity and lies that inform many of these services
4. We should never forget mantra is so clever (the way u use it demonstrates this perfectly) We must never forget - but then we must never remember the truth either. We should never remember those who were shot in the back by their own side. We don't remember the forces we sent over to fight in somebody else's civil war (Russia) right after WW1 coz we still felt we hadn't lost enough of our young boys!! We should not talk too much about what WWI was really all about but instead mention the Nazis at every available point (but then do we ever remember those who died in the British army run concentration camps of post war Germany????). No we remember but only very selectively. Again this is a practice of ideological masking of the horrors of history
You say I insult the troops
Well i wonder how those that fought to keep this country 'free' (that one was WW2 by the way) would feel about you trying to silence and condemn my intelligent and well thought through critique of these services - ON THEIR BEHALF 0- the damn gall of you trouble to speak for the dead!... Yes in WW2 many died so I could have the freedom to stand up for peace and criticize dangerous ideological practices (that remind me of Hitler rallys - if u ever saw the 11/11 service at my school it looked exactly like a Nazi rally - held outdoors with the headmaster on a high platform looking over us in uniform and the army firing cannons). Well I for one will just exercise my free speech that many have died for and not claim to speak ion their behalf. I will only speak on my behalf..
To finish here is something for the BNP brigade to think about.
If we had not sent so many troops to die pointlessly in WWI we may not have felt the need to crush Germany economically from 1918 onward. Then Hitler would not have had much of a platform to stand for election. Thus he would not have got in to power. Now not only would this have saved the lives of between 4 and 6 million Jews. It would also mean we would not have had to send and lose so many troops in WW2. Thus we would not have needed so much post war immigration to re-build our country. having never had to depend on immigrants for our survival we may not have had such an open attitude towards them. We would have begun resenting them more and more. The BNP (or more liklely NF) would gain a lot of support and momentum - there would be no stigma against the far right - they would just be seen as a minority themselves..... Thusif we had never had Hitler I'm pretty sure you lot would all be wearing swastikas and goose marching thru London by now - History is a strange thing...
Senior MP
About as much idealogical crap you spout then, right?This is the ideologuical crap I talk about in the post below.,
Of course the nazis had nowt to do with WW1! No I don't have to make a slip. The germans in WW1 was as much empire building as the nazis in WW2 - they thought the British would be an easy touch. But we weren't. Do honestly think, if Britain had lost, that they'd have left our country alone? Are you truly that nieve?1. WWI had nothing to do with the Nazis. This is again the a result of ideology. You have to make a slip between my remarks about WWI and the Nazis to make your point. By being about all wars 11/11 (which was WWI in case u don't know your history as I am starting to wonder) services (that claim to be about all wars) mask over wars of exploitation by saying 'we fought the Nazis' - again very clever - very insidious - I can see why people get sucked in. WW2 is maybe the only justified war this country has fought in in the last 300 years, and even then it was partly our fauly and the fault of WWI and the Versailles Treaty that Hitler ever got to power in the first place . Maybe they should mention this at remembrance services 'We remember all the people that died in WWI, just so we could help Hitler come to opower and kill a whole new generation of our kids!!'
But we DID fight the nazis in WW2! Are you saying then the death camps were propaganda by the allies? Are you saying that millions of people didn't die in them, that Hitler wasn't out to exterminate the Jews? THAT was why our forces fought him - that and the fact the man was out to dominate more than us this time; he was out to dominate the world.
Oh for God's sake - so the Treaty of Verseilles is OUR fault, so let Hitler go on his way people. If he exterminates a few million people along the way that's really OUR fault too. Better to lie down and let him walk over us than fight back.
Thank God our armed forces don't take that attitude, isn't it? I'm sure you would love your little speech mentioned at remember services, as would all those who forget that if the wars had been lost they wouldn't be able to spout such rubbish! Anyway, why not belittle our dead and our survivors, why not undermine our way of remembering them. It's not important to you is it, so you don't understand why it's important to the rest of us.
I think 13th November 1002 had it right in his reply; keep your leftist idealogy for any other day than the one where we try to pay our respects to ALL our fallen. But then you'd say you have a democratic right to speak your mind whenever you want, right?
Of course you do - but its BECAUSE of their sacrifices (and sacrifices still being made today as Paulie pointed out) that you even HAVE that 'democratic right'. I am thankful for it, perhaps you could be too?
Oh no, we're not JUST remembering our dead; we're also paying out respects to the poor sods who survived the carnage in EVERY conflict. Of course history was re-written according to an historian who also has no evidence of it though.2. You can say 'oh but we are just remembering the dead'. NO - It is far more insidious than that as |I show below it is about silencing dissent and indoctrinating the young (oh and re-writing history)
Oh and of course it was insiduous to your mind - I wonder if you consider it more insiduous than the nazis way of taking over? But then I suppose to you war is just a huge conspiracy theory.
Oh no, my christian beliefs play no part in this. Sorry. I believe WHOLE HEARTEDLY in the rememberance services ONLY because of those that gave their lives, that were maimed, so that we might be free.3. See how u take my remarks that are 100% in favour of the armed forces as Pauli, as former solider, can see but you can't becoz u r blinded by the very powerful mix of Christianity and lies that inform many of these services
To you and your skewed idealogy they're lies. But to thankfully to most of us we see the truth. Oh and if its such a terrible christian tradition, I do wonder why all the other faiths come and lay wreaths too. including the bhuddist leader - who lays a RED poppy wreath?
Paulie can believe what he wants; that's what he and all the other services have FOUGHT for. Good Lord the man fought abroad doing something I would never have the nerve for. If he says he's not offended then I say that's very magnanimous of him and I respect him even more for it. I can say that not many soldiers would be as gracious as he has been.
Want to prove it? Wear a white poppy and then visit Aldershot.....
Oh and, for the record, the white poppy profits stay with the white poppy brigade. They NEVER give any money to red poppy appeal, or any of the armed forces charities. They consider the red poppy appeal a war appeal and would never support it. You only have to go on websites to see that.
It's not a 'mantra' - it's a belief. If we forget what they sacrificed, what then? We forget about the likes of Hitler, we ignore a rising Lenin? NEVER again can people like that be allowed to gain power; never again can we allow the slaughter of either war that took place - never again can we appease the enemy to save ourselves as Chamberlain tried to.4. We should never forget mantra is so clever (the way u use it demonstrates this perfectly) We must never forget - but then we must never remember the truth either. We should never remember those who were shot in the back by their own side. We don't remember the forces we sent over to fight in somebody else's civil war (Russia) right after WW1 coz we still felt we hadn't lost enough of our young boys!! We should not talk too much about what WWI was really all about but instead mention the Nazis at every available point (but then do we ever remember those who died in the British army run concentration camps of post war Germany????). No we remember but only very selectively. Again this is a practice of ideological masking of the horrors of history
Yes we should remember the ones who were shot for desertion or cowardice; these days we're more aware of shellshock, we know it was wrong. We should remember the forces who fought in Russia's civil war, because they too lost their lives trying to help a nation find peace.
No let's talk about WW1 - let's talk about the German attitude to the British; about they thought we were easy pickings. Let's talk about what they did to the French at Verdun. Let's talk about Ypres and the Somme. Believe the Germans were just as brutal in WW1 as the nazis in WW2. You might not want to think that, might not want to believe it, but its true.
My eleven year old is studying WW1 for history at school. Its horrifying what the german's were like. Who used mustard gas first? The allies? Nope, the germans. Who used every nasty little weapon at their disposal first? The allies? Nope the germans. So, don't you stand there and make out to me that WW1 was all our fault, that it was all the fault of the allies.
Indeed you do and are still doing so. Likening a rememberance service at a child's school to a nazi rally, is not going to be seen as a compliment is it? Continuing to put down what they did as nothing is not a compliment either is it?You say I insult the troops
I think they would know that there are those of us, like me, who stand up for what they did. I do not try and silence you, Nutter, I am telling you what I think. A right I too hold because of their sacrifices. Oh and keeping the country free was WW1 too - the British people were just as scared of the 'hun' and the 'bosch' invading these shores as they were about the 'jerries' in WW2.Well i wonder how those that fought to keep this country 'free' (that one was WW2 by the way) would feel about you trying to silence and condemn my intelligent and well thought through critique of these services - ON THEIR BEHALF 0- the damn gall of you trouble to speak for the dead!... ,
I am not trying to silence your views. I am only defending those men you dismiss so easily. It is not a 'an intelligent and well thought through critique of these services' it is the the wild ramblings of a leftist idealogy that truly beggars belief. However, those men DIED and were left injured, are still DYING and being maimed, so that you can hold such views without fear of retribution. If those same men had just rolled over, or rolled over now, and let the enemy walk all over them - do you think such radical views would be allowed? Of course not. But you conveniently forget that.
I have no gall Nutter - these are my opinions and as odious as they are to you, as yours are to me, we BOTH have a right to hold them. THAT is why those brave men are heroes to me. THAT is why they died or were left injured. it is only 'the gall' of me because I don't agree with you. Well, frankly, tough, I hold this opinion and you hold yours and never the twain shall meet. But I respect those armed servicemen for their sacrifices so that we can BOTH have the freedom to hold such wide opinions and neither of us fear retribution.
Oh let's not miss out WW1, or indeed any conflict since. What was Paulie fighting for, why did he lose a leg? For fun? I don't think so. He fought, as so many fight now, and fought then, so we might indeed be free. Be a democracy in other words. As much as this stupid government try to undermine those freedoms, at this time every year the British resolve hardens once more and we still fight to retain them.Yes in WW2 many died so I could have the freedom to stand up for peace and criticize dangerous ideological practices (that remind me of Hitler rallys - if u ever saw the 11/11 service at my school it looked exactly like a Nazi rally - held outdoors with the headmaster on a high platform looking over us in uniform and the army firing cannons). Well I for one will just exercise my free speech that many have died for and not claim to speak ion their behalf. I will only speak on my behalf..
Oh for God's sake Nutter - if you really watched footage of TRUE nazi rallies you wouldn't come out with such rubbish! To belittle a rememberance service by likening it to a nazi rally sums up your views quite nicely, doesn't it?!
Oh and of course this is actual documented historical fact is it? Legitimate documents show this is the way things would have gone? Or just another 'estimation' of likely events by your historian?To finish here is something for the BNP brigade to think about.
If we had not sent so many troops to die pointlessly in WWI we may not have felt the need to crush Germany economically from 1918 onward. Then Hitler would not have had much of a platform to stand for election. Thus he would not have got in to power. Now not only would this have saved the lives of between 4 and 6 million Jews. It would also mean we would not have had to send and lose so many troops in WW2. Thus we would not have needed so much post war immigration to re-build our country. having never had to depend on immigrants for our survival we may not have had such an open attitude towards them. We would have begun resenting them more and more. The BNP (or more liklely NF) would gain a lot of support and momentum - there would be no stigma against the far right - they would just be seen as a minority themselves..... Thusif we had never had Hitler I'm pretty sure you lot would all be wearing swastikas and goose marching thru London by now - History is a strange thing...
Do you hear that? That's the sound of no one caring - anon
You have really misunderstood my points I think. I see why this is an emotive issue for you. I really do understand where you are coming from. If my view is so scary or horrendous to you, I must ask why? I have answered this below, I think. i mean you must of misunderstood me coz everything above supports my case. The gall is that you evoke the dead to back up your attack on my viewpoint. Again u misunderstand. I do not think your opinions are odious. I never even used this word! I even said that I do not blame anyone for this - these practices develop historically - as did nazi practices but they are not above challenge. I feel practices of remembrance (not all of them either) are dangerous ideologically speaking and you demonstrate why perfectly.
Me being anti war is odious, you say that by thinking it was disgusting that the young wasted their lives to prop up monarchies that oppressed them is an insult to the troops which it clearly isn't - in fact it is the direct opposite. I could not make my point any better than you have done for me. By trying to stand up for the young in this country you construct me as a traitor. this is exactly the sort of thinking that these practices breed.
As I said I have always donated to the poppy appeal so I really don't know what that is about. I have always supported the people that fight and die often for pointless reasons but sometimes for good reasons as in WW2. Ideology has blinded u to the fact i have said this again and again. This further supports my claims.
I know the footage of the Nazi rallies well and the similarities are scary! Not all the ceromines I talked in particular of ones at military schools an schools like that. Not the ones in London. Again i made a big point of this.
As for WWI the use of mustard gas backfired badly for the Germans anyway. They never tried to occupy this country. and WHAT ABOUT OUR EMPIRE FOR GOODNESS SAKE?? The Germans wanted to have an empire becoz it seemed only fair as we had one. We were the ones (our army) conquering vast swathes of the globe killing many many people. This is another example of what is forgotten when 'we remember them'.
People showing respect for dead is not something I take issue with. Again this should be clear. The fact you paint me as being anti troops and anti everything just shows why I think these practices are so scary. I see your point I really do about why we should remember the dead. i just wish you could understand where I am coming from.
Trouble, It just occured that if you wanted to make your point you should have said
"Nutter, I see your point, war is waste of young life an our troops have been forced to fight for pointless and oppressive reasons in history, however, we just want today to remember the fallen and your remarks are way off the mark, we do not glorify anything we just want to respect the fallen"
If you said that it would show that I was wrong about remembrance services. Instead you just show that I was right!
Also as to me "spouting ideological crap'. Well I don't really do this. Unlike most I recognize the ideology I subscribe to and the tradtion of which it is a part but I remain critical of it. I am critical of all ideologies. You never see me uncritically promoting Marxism, for example. I take a critcal stance on everything. Do I carry ideological baggage? - yes of course I do, like everyone else. The difference is I recognize this and remain critical - or try to. So saying I spout ideological crap, is far less true of me than almost anyone else on this forum.
Senior MP
Your point is taken Nutter; but I can't see where you're coming I really, and genuinely, can't.
I don't care that the use of mustard gas backfired on the Germans. They instigated it. I saw the damage that damn stuff did to my great uncle - it was filthy stuff.
I'm not saying the allies were innocent victims; but the blame about the start of both world wars were not their fault. In fact the only war we've started was the Iraq one. Again, not their fault, but the fault of our stupid government.
I don't paint you anti everything, merely anti troops. We have no idea what Germany would've done at the end of WW1 had they won - I doubt very much they would've just gone home and left us to it.
No, I don't forget the English empire and how it was achieved. Does that mean that those who died giving their lives for our freedom, but not in conquest, should be ignored because of our conquest elsewhere?
Why then does France remember their dead, Germany remember theirs? Because they wish to honour the men who died for their country. It does not mean any of us, in any country, love war - that we can't wait for the next one.
Just the opposite, I wish wars would end. But they won't - I have said this over and over again; there will ALWAYS be a battlefield, and always those to fight upon it. I support those that fight, with everything in me.
They are doing something I doubt I could ever do. We SHOULD remember them; ALL of them, from EVERY conflict. We should remember their sacrifices, if we can't do that it doesn't say much for us as a people does it?
But I think this is one issue I will never understand your viewpoint on, sorry.
Do you hear that? That's the sound of no one caring - anon
Ok let me explain. Take your relative who ingested that gas. He was a solider who was ordered to do his job. The German soldiers were the same. Soldiers of both sides were victims of rich elites who were too cowardly to fight themselves. I do not blame the German soldiers for what they did nor do I blame our guys. I blame the elites ( I want to scream every time I see the queen lay a reef all the time knowing that the soldiers see this as a great honor - it makes me soooo angry!!) Do you see why I think I am on the side of the troops? I may disagree with their interpretation of war and their role in it but I do not disrespect them. I agree we should remember them. But not as heroes fighting in glorious conflicts but as victims of an oppressive ideology of elites that I feel is perpetuated by these services. I worry that if we do not take a more critical stance of these practices then we are in danger of repeating past mistakes - i.e Iraq. Who suffers if we do? It won't be me or you but the poor boys and girls who will be sent to fight., Not in our name but in the name of business or elite interests as they did in the interests of royals in WW1.Your point is taken Nutter; but I can't see where you're coming I really, and genuinely, can't.
I don't care that the use of mustard gas backfired on the Germans. They instigated it. I saw the damage that damn stuff did to my great uncle - it was filthy stuff.
I'm not saying the allies were innocent victims; but the blame about the start of both world wars were not their fault. In fact the only war we've started was the Iraq one. Again, not their fault, but the fault of our stupid government.
I don't paint you anti everything, merely anti troops. We have no idea what Germany would've done at the end of WW1 had they won - I doubt very much they would've just gone home and left us to it.
No, I don't forget the English empire and how it was achieved. Does that mean that those who died giving their lives for our freedom, but not in conquest, should be ignored because of our conquest elsewhere?
Why then does France remember their dead, Germany remember theirs? Because they wish to honour the men who died for their country. It does not mean any of us, in any country, love war - that we can't wait for the next one.
Just the opposite, I wish wars would end. But they won't - I have said this over and over again; there will ALWAYS be a battlefield, and always those to fight upon it. I support those that fight, with everything in me.
They are doing something I doubt I could ever do. We SHOULD remember them; ALL of them, from EVERY conflict. We should remember their sacrifices, if we can't do that it doesn't say much for us as a people does it?
But I think this is one issue I will never understand your viewpoint on, sorry.
Maybe you will never see my point. But let me assure you that I never meant to insult our armed forces and we'll can leave it at that.
Senior MP
Yes I see why you would think you were; in the first world war you might even have had a point, most of the army high up never even saw a battlefield let alone fought on one - BUT many of the officers were also what would be termed elites; and of course they died along with their men.
Nutter, you cannot liken a, school, rememberance service to a nazi rally and expect me to just let it go. I think even Paulie might take offence at that. I know I certainly did. NO rememberance service is like one of those rallies.I may disagree with their interpretation of war and their role in it but I do not disrespect them. I agree we should remember them. But not as heroes fighting in glorious conflicts but as victims of an oppressive ideology of elites that I feel is perpetuated by these services.
They were not fighting in 'glorious conflicts' - NO ONE sees it like that. What we see are millions of men, then and since, as well as (more recently) women giving their lives that we might remain free. That you and I can bad mouth the government, each other and anyone and not be penalised for it. THAT is what we give thanks for and THAT is what we thank those lost and maimed for.
We were not, and are not, oppressed Nutter; you wish to talk about oppression go to Zimbabwe and ask their people - our lives are nothing like theirs. Our soldiers fight for their country, they defend us. I cherish that - I thank them for it. I acknowledge both those who have given their lives for me, even though they don't know me, and those are going to spend their lives maimed because of that defence.
I hope the services never end - I for one would be heartbroken if they did. How disrespectful to our armed forces to dismiss their sacrifices so easily?
Whether Iraq was a mistake or not is not in question. Our soldiers are still dying there, just as they did in all the other battles they have fought before and since the world wars. Those men are still doing their duty and deserve our respect. I loathe those who, like with the US soldiers returning after Vietnam, spit in the faces of those returning and hurled abuse at them.I worry that if we do not take a more critical stance of these practices then we are in danger of repeating past mistakes - i.e Iraq. Who suffers if we do? It won't be me or you but the poor boys and girls who will be sent to fight., Not in our name but in the name of business or elite interests as they did in the interests of royals in WW1.
Abuse the government, but not the forces - they are only doing what they have to.
No, Nutter, I never, ever will see your point - it goes against everything I believe in with regards our armed forces. Forget the government, the elites, whatever you want to call them; I am talking about the soldiers, sailors and pilots. The ordinary men and women who fight for us. THEY deserve our respect, and they will always have mine and I will always remember them.Maybe you will never see my point. But let me assure you that I never meant to insult our armed forces and we'll can leave it at that.
But I accept that you don't mean to insult our armed forces.
Do you hear that? That's the sound of no one caring - anon
Not all officers did go down with their men (although many did). This ties in to my point about school services. My school trained the officers for WW1 (3 ex pupils with VCs one of which was a real hero - was a battlefield medic in WWI, but this is beside the point).
Do u see how these practices at a school help to brainwash people into thinking they are fighting to defend our country? You should have seen our school service it was all about war and glory for england - very very close to nazi ideology too damn close for comfort and I got in a lot of trouble for saying so at the time. In WW1 our country was never attacked. Nor has it been by Iraq and what about the Russian Civil, war???
That freedom that you rightly defend slips away all too quickly if we start to paint a rosy picture of our role in history as great liberators. Of course we have done some good but more often than not we are the oppressors. Our ared forces have oppressed the world for centuries. I do not blame them for this (as I say repeatedly) they just do their job. I blame the rich elites that give them the orders.
As for what u say about the ordinary men - solders sailors and pilots. I agree 100% and I do respect them and I do give to the poppy appeal even if I do not wear one. I also don't tell the BL guys why out of respect I just donate and when they offer me a poppy I say 'no thank you' and that is it!
I would never spit in the faces of soldiers no matter how odious the war they have fought. I have been consistent in saying who I blame.
My problem with remembrance is it is just as much about forgetting as it is about remembering. [The vets who go to these services - they know more about war than i do and i do not question them or their motives. However us non vets do not really know what happened out there and it is us not them that paint this picture of war as great and noble (they know better) - it is the public who practice these ceremonies over the years and have warped their meaning. Rather than being furious with the government we passively honor the dead But equally we do forget how bad we have been as a country we do forget all the odious things royals and elites have asked of our forces and the oppression we caused around the globe.] We (us non vets), in a democracy are responsible for our government and when we start forgetting what our government have made these guys do then we are on a dangerous road worse still if you think it was a glorious sacrifice. But worse if you point this out as I do - you get a reaction like yours...This scares me a great deal I am sorry you cannot see why...
You really wanna know why i constantly make comparisons with the nazi regime??
Weimar was a very democratic system (more so than ours) and in a few short years Hitler rose as a dictator. This historical warning is often lost in discussion about WW2. It is all too easy to slip from a free and democratic nation to a dictatorship and it does not happen becoz of the charisma of a leader but from social practices being repeated and re-articulated. The meaning shifting subtly over time (what Derrida calls Iterability)/ Nationalism is a dangerous beast that needs to be kept in check (or in my view destroyed completely). This is another thing which is forgotten in all the flag waving and nationalism of remembrance.
"The price of freedom is eternal vigilance"
Senior MP
I DON'T agree with a single word you've said - I NEVER will. Our country is NOTHING like the nazis. Our people are NOT oppressed - as I said, you wish to see an oppressed people go to China, go to Zimbabwe. We have it easy compared to those people.
You have your opinion Nutter; that is your right. As its mine to hold the one I do.
I still cannot see how you can say all that you have and then say you support the troops, etc. However I do accept that you genuinely believe that you do.
I don't think this discussion is really going anywhere now, so I'm not sure of the point in continuing. But that's up to you.
Do you hear that? That's the sound of no one caring - anon
No problem I have mad my case as fully and clearly as I think I am able. Nothing more to add!
Banned
From a man who fought in the first world war.............. but who failed to survive it. One of the many people remembered on November 11th.
Its the last part of his famous poem " Dulce et Decorum Est ".........
Wilfred Owen.........
"If in some smothering dreams you too could pace
Behind the wagon that we flung him in,
And watch the white eyes writhing in his face,
His hanging face, like a devil's sick of sin;
If you could hear, at every jolt, the blood
Come gargling from the froth-corrupted lungs,
Obscene as cancer, bitter as the cud
Of vile, incurable sores on innocent tongues,
My friend, you would not tell with such high zest
To children ardent for some desperate glory,
The old Lie; Dulce et Decorum est
Pro patria mori." ( it is sweet and right to die for your country )
I wonder what he would be thinking if he could witness the memorials that are meant to honour his sacrifice
Junior Member
Unfortunately in any war the ones who do most of the dying is the working classes of both sides.We can say that particular leader was far worse than that one but at the end of the day its the people who have nothing to gain who do the dying.You speak to anyone who has served in their countries armed forces and they will tell you they werent risking their lives for king & country or some other lofty ideal. They did it for their mates that they served with,something thats carefully nurtured. Most people could not contemplate after watching countless friends butchered that their sacrifice was in vain.
Well said T43 , at least your views which i believe represent the vast majority in this country show their sacrifices were not in vain .
Banned
I suppose the emphasis on " your views " is a swipe at the other views expressed.
Here is another view expressed by a man who fought in the first world war in the form of an open letter to the press
Siegfried Sassoon.................
"
I am making this statement as an act of wilful defiance of military authority, because I believe that the war is being deliberately prolonged by those who have the power to end it.
I am a soldier, convinced that I am acting on behalf of soldiers. I believe that this war, upon which I entered as a war of defence and liberation, has now become a war of aggression and conquest. I believe that the purposes for which I and my fellow-soldiers entered upon this war should have been so clearly stated as to have made it impossible to change them, and that, had this been done, the objects which actuated us would now be attainable by negotiation.
I have seen and endured the sufferings of the troops, and I can no longer be a party to prolong these sufferings for ends which I believe to be evil and unjust.
I am not protesting against the conduct of the war, but against the political errors and insincerities for which the fighting men are being sacrificed.
On behalf of those who are suffering now I make this protest against the deception which is being practiced on them; also I believe that I may help to destroy the callous complacence with which the majority of those at home regard the continuance of agonies which they do not share, and which they have not sufficient imagination to realize.
Siegfried L. Sassoon. July 1917"
I find it staggering how the stance against the continual sacrifice of lives on the alters of power is recieved with such hostility.
It has nothing to do with contempt for soldiers , as has been alluded to , it is totally the opposite and is aimed at preventing further sacrifices and lives.
I find the notion that the above stance is manifestly ungrateful to be false and deeply insulting to be honest
Banned
As long as people are throwing opinions out there,here is mine.
War is not about glory or heroism it is more about boredom and occasional terror and then resignation,aside from that there is the dehumanising part of war mixed in with the depending upon your mates(most on the outside can never understand the bond that veterans have,that might be why the toughest baddest squaddies often cry the most on rememberance day ceremonies).War is all hell as i think it was Sherman once said!!He never had to get involved with peace keeping,now there is hell,particulary for a soldier,part of the peackeeping operations in the balkans was finding out how many on both sides had been ethnically cleansed.Imagine how much more horrific it would be to dig ,document and photograph not just all mass graves found but also the contents,men,women ,children and babies!The stench of rotten flesh nauseating,nothing hides or masks it and you never get used to it,worse again years later you never forget it,waking up at all hours of the night smelling that smell,never able to sleep more than two or three hours a night,now war is doubtless hell,but the undramatic peackeeping is even worse.I as a veteran,and one who if able would still be at the FEBA in either Afghanistan or Iraq with my mates,honestly wish ,hope and campaign for peace,desire it also,more i think than most!Often i wish it possible for our leaders to approach negotiations with a smile rather than a threat but politicos and civvies are quick to start wars that another will have to fight!!
Me i am the guy who will put himself in danger to help his fellow man(freind or foe)personal gain is not a part of this,it is a feeling of right or wrong,and i have stood up,i do stand up and i will again!It is who i am(My wife hates it when i stand up to violence/threat,but i cant help it,it is who i am,that guy who will take risks for others,not for glory just because i can,and others maynot be able.One day we will have peace i think,but i will be long gone before that time comes,in the mean time,wear your poppies on the 11/11 and if you like to wear pink white or purple spotted poppies,do remember to wear also a red one,it isnt about glory,it is about remembering.Once the poppies are forgotten,dont forget those who are no longer here because they gave all for our freedom,or the betterment of other lands!!
Hostility is the wrong word , disappointment mixed with a bit of contempt .
I see little point in railing against Nation States or Elites ,you might as well complain about the sun rising in the morning . There is an undercurrent of contempt in much of what i have read , the poor stupid masses being manipulated by those nasty old elites suggesting soldiers are nothing more than gullible idiots. If only they could see the world as many in this thread view it , the scales would fall from their eyes , right ?.... where have i heard that before.
If men were not prepared to fight for our freedoms, our values , the National Interest , as defined by our democratically elected Government we would not be having this debate. We take so much for granted all acquired through the sacrifices of past generations. I would leave wishing for peace and harmony .... end to all war .... fairies .. to Miss World contestants , back in the real world we do the best we can often making terrible mistakes ... it was ever thus.
You can quote as many poems/ letters as you like , yes war is terrible and should be avoided at all costs but the many tens/hundreds of thousands of service men and women who have attended remembrance services across this nation do not think the sacrifices of the fallen were made in vain. Comparing these services of remembrance to Nazi parades is obscene .
To suggest any arguments presented in this thread may prevent further sacrifices is a tad naive and not a very convincing justification for some truly shameful comments.
Member
I do not see what a person wishes to do in the bedroom, has to do with life outside of the bedroom.
What next? Special wreaths for leather and lace fetishists?
Senior MP
Well as far as I know NO ONE is saying it's right and sweet to die for your country. It's more like people are saying how sad they are that anyone has actually had to die or be injured.
NO ONE is saying war is glorious; we are merely remembering the loss of those that died, in ANY conflict. Remembering their loss, the losses their loved suffered at their dying. Or the loss they are suffering if they are permanently disabled.
Do you hear that? That's the sound of no one caring - anon
Senior MP
I suppose if we were glorifying war then your point would be well made. But we're not. I don't see how remembering our dead or our injured from ANY conflict is a bad thing?
I think the PC element has gone mental again - its politically correct to decry anything that might upset someone else. Let's condemn the memory of millions of men to the scrap heap, let's pull down the monuments, lets tear out the statues and remove the list of names of the fallen wherever they are - because someone somewhere might be offended by it in case those who do remember are secretly glorifying war.
What is the most startling is those that decry these services, that get angry at those of us who observe the two minutes silences, who wear a red poppy with pride, who praise our forces are only able to denounce it so because those men and women have given their lives, even if they've lived because they'll never be the same, for that freedom.
Spartacus you use the name of a slave that led a revolt; he killed many and many of his followers were slaughtered, yet you glorify him and what he did by using his name and gladiator's icon. That is no different to some of us remembering the dead of conflicts our armed forces are lost or injured in.
You comemorate the man and what he stood for; we comemorate the forces and what they stood for. How is your way right and ours wrong purely because we do so publically once a year?
This saturday me and my family are going to the new rememberance memorial at Alrewas here in Staffordshire before we go shopping. I want to be there by 11am to take part in the daily memorial service, I want to light a candle for the fallen and I want to pray for them. Then I want to light another candle to my mum, God rest her, and thank her for instilling in me a pride in our armed forces and the sacrifices they made so that I can call Gordon Brown stupid and the government a waste of space without fear of arrest or torture.
Sadly it would seem people like me are fast becoming yet another minority; and that is so sad I could cry.
Do you hear that? That's the sound of no one caring - anon
Senior MP
abso-bl**dy-lutely right!
Do you hear that? That's the sound of no one caring - anon
Senior MP
Well, much better put that I could ever have done it. Thank you for saying it so much more succinctly than me - saving me from yet more waffle.
I agree with all you've said. I am very sad right now.
Do you hear that? That's the sound of no one caring - anon
Senior MP
Exactly Tacitus. Why use such a sombre occasion to make a political point? Was it really necessary?
Do you hear that? That's the sound of no one caring - anon
Banned
Maybe hostility is the wrong word Albion but what are the real reasons behind your disappointment and contempt?
Are you disappointed that there are still those who refuse/resist to listen to the claptrap of elites when it involves the huge sacrifices made by ordinary people to maintain their privileged position in life ?
You couldn't be further from the truth , imo, Albion .And, is it not so that you have much to gain from the promotion of such a notion ?I see little point in railing against Nation States or Elites ,you might as well complain about the sun rising in the morning .
The sun rose and fell on human life on earth long before the advent of the Nation State , which after all , is just on of the many vehicles elites have used to ensure their interests are protected
And, history is a catalogue of the struggles of the masses against the despotic rule of elites as you well know. Have they been " pointless " ? , absolutely not
Well elite opinion certainly seems to suggest that the masses , with whom the sacrifices are always made , are seen as gullible idiots.There is an undercurrent of contempt in much of what i have read , the poor stupid masses being manipulated by those nasty old elites suggesting soldiers are nothing more than gullible idiots. If only they could see the world as many in this thread view it , the scales would fall from their eyes , right ?.... where have i heard that before .
Quote= Henry Kissinger= " soldiers are dumb ,stupid animals to be used as pawns in Foreign Policy "
I have some respect for the honesty of the above statement ( most other elitists tend to be less open ) but no doubt Kissinger also attended/attends many memorial services to remember the fallen " stupid animals "
The " National Interest " is whatever the ruling elite says it is and you know that. It is the protection and maintainance of their privillege and power .If men were not prepared to fight for our freedoms, our values , the National Interest , as defined by our democratically elected Government we would not be having this debate.
What about Iraq , Albion ? People are fighting and dying ( killing ) for what ? What " values " , what " freedoms " ?
You will probably claim that it is a mistake
The sacrifices of the past generations are not confined to warfare and soldiery , and with regard to our " freedoms " they have been won by ordinary people who have had to overcome the attacks by soldiers of their own nations who were serving orders given by the elites from which all freedoms are won.We take so much for granted all acquired through the sacrifices of past generations. I would leave wishing for peace and harmony .... end to all war .... fairies .. to Miss World contestants , back in the real world we do the best we can often making terrible mistakes ... it was ever thus.
Where is the remembrance for them ? These people , imo, are the real champions of our freedoms and yet we don't even know who they were let alone show any gratitude to their sacrifice.
The elite set the agenda for what and whom are to be remembered. I don't believe in fairies, I don't know what miss world contestants have to say ( maybe because i tend to look and not listen ) and i don't believe that we can ever escape conflict but I do believe that more questioning/accountability from elites to the masses ( an evident historical process imo ) is a step closer to reducing the incidents of war and is also a counterbalance to its glorification.
War is terrible ,agreed, but is it/has it been " avoided at all costs "? In the majority of cases I would say no.You can quote as many poems/ letters as you like , yes war is terrible and should be avoided at all costs but the many tens/hundreds of thousands of service men and women who have attended remembrance services across this nation do not think the sacrifices of the fallen were made in vain. Comparing these services of remembrance to Nazi parades is obscene .
I don't think it is naive Albion , progress is slow granted, but remembrance without criticism of the elites who have sent them to their graves seems hollow to me and does nothing to stop the liklihood of further " mistakes ". Each to their own.To suggest any arguments presented in this thread may prevent further sacrifices is a tad naive and not a very convincing justification for some truly shameful comments.
Agree with everything you say, Spartacus. I just pick out this quote as I think it is interesting how many debates have turned to the question of nationalism.
As you suggest once something is deemed in the 'national interest' people tend to rally behind it very quickly especially once troops get involved (any one remember how strong opposition to Iraq died off very quickly once we were at war). Nationalism is a dangerous thing and history has taught us its dangers. I do not think it "shameful" to be concerned about nationalist practices (any nationalist practice) after the lessons of WW2. In a democracy we should all have a responsibility and a role in what is deemed in 'the national interest' and remain critical of it. We can never be complacent about it otherwise democracy looses all value. We must never sit idle while elites or governments or corporate interests send our young men and women to die in our name. This may sound a bit ancient Greek but I do think that citizens should be critical of both politics and their own social practices - although this may be expecting a bit much from a country that is more interested in voting in big brother than a general election and this makes me more nervous still. As long as everyone had soaps an reality TV would they even notice our civil liberties slipping away??
As many have said (and rightly so) people have died for (and killed and occupied and enslaved others, for that matter) our freedoms. Freedom is not always defended at the point of a gun but also no less important is a sharp critical view of own views and practices.
Banned
I am not saying that people here have glorified war Trouble, what I am saying is that the message that these people all died or were mutilated in defence of our freedoms is largely false ( see previous post ) and it is in the interests of ruling elites that that misrepresentation becomes the accepted analysis.I suppose if we were glorifying war then your point would be well made. But we're not. I don't see how remembering our dead or our injured from ANY conflict is a bad thing?
No Trouble , let's be aware of what they died for and question the validity of the justification for their deaths in the hope of saving others of a similar fate or elst the sorrow is pointless or self serving. They deserve better I think.I think the PC element has gone mental again - its politically correct to decry anything that might upset someone else. Let's condemn the memory of millions of men to the scrap heap, let's pull down the monuments, lets tear out the statues and remove the list of names of the fallen wherever they are - because someone somewhere might be offended by it in case those who do remember are secretly glorifying war.
I too observe the 2 mins silence , buy a poppy , and in no way mock those who attend the memorials on 11/11. I just see things slightly different than some others.What is the most startling is those that decry these services, that get angry at those of us who observe the two minutes silences, who wear a red poppy with pride, who praise our forces are only able to denounce it so because those men and women have given their lives, even if they've lived because they'll never be the same, for that freedom.
Well Trouble, am I glorifying him or am I simply remembering him and others of his ilk ?Spartacus you use the name of a slave that led a revolt; he killed many and many of his followers were slaughtered, yet you glorify him and what he did by using his name and gladiator's icon. That is no different to some of us remembering the dead of conflicts our armed forces are lost or injured in.
I am not a pacifist insomuch that I believe that some battles are worth fighting . Freedom from slavery is one of them. I don't think I am being inconsistant by using Spartacus as my username
And I have already said ,I don't condemn those who hold the sentiments you have expressed nor do I believe that you are glorifying war.
I'm not saying I am right and you are wrong Trouble. We just have different interpretations of what their deaths they stood forYou comemorate the man and what he stood for; we comemorate the forces and what they stood for. How is your way right and ours wrong purely because we do so publically once a year?
I hope you have a rewarding experience, really I do.This saturday me and my family are going to the new rememberance memorial at Alrewas here in Staffordshire before we go shopping. I want to be there by 11am to take part in the daily memorial service, I want to light a candle for the fallen and I want to pray for them. Then I want to light another candle to my mum, God rest her, and thank her for instilling in me a pride in our armed forces and the sacrifices they made so that I can call Gordon Brown stupid and the government a waste of space without fear of arrest or torture.
Be proud of the armed forces by all means Trouble , just try not to let that pride blind you from their misuse in the service of elite interests that is perverted ( by elites ) into the defence of freedom. That's all am I saying to you .
It's an important part in the prevention of future needless deaths , is it so treacherous or contemptuous to wish for that ?
Senior MP
Do you know the one thing I am truly, genuinely, honestly grateful for? That both my mum and my great uncle, God rest them, are no longer alive to be aware of many of the feelings and comments, such as posted here.
My great uncle lost three brothers on the Somme, he himself was forever maimed by mustard gas. He honoured 11/11 with great reverence and my mum was brought up to do the same, as I was and I am now doing with my daughter.
The real irony here, and one that is not lost on me, is that these same people who condemn rememberance sunday would go mental if a protest they wished to carry out was stopped or hindered by other people disagreeing with it. They would rail about their rights to protest, the freedom of democracy, the freedom of speech. Not once would they think about the men and women who die to ensure those freedoms remain.
Germany mourns their dead unmolested, France does the same. Only in the UK does the PC brigade find an errant soapbox to climb on and wax lyrical about how awful rememberance sunday is; how rememberance services are more like nazi rallies.
Even more ironically, they then appear to be shocked and surprised when those that do honour this day, such as myself and A69, take offence at such remarks and get angry. Once again there is the remarks about the rights to their own opinions, their freedom of speech. Once again the millions who died to ensure they keep those freedoms, etc are glossed over.
On a positive note, for me at least, I was proud to see so many people wearing their red poppies this year. But Spartacus, I honestly don't have a clue why you observe the 2 minute silence or wear a red poppy? What's the point when you don't honour what they stand for?
I respect Nutter far more for not doing so. It's hypocritical to makes comments such as you do here and then observe the 2 minutes silence and wear a red poppy. Why would you do that when the event is so abohorent to you? It makes no sense.
I don't like war; I don't like killing. I know I could never do it. I look at the men and women as they march past the cenotaph, as they march through my village and I feel great pride they ignored naysayers back then, people like yourself, and fought for their country.
I don't see war as an elitist game - I see it as it is; a terrible conflict of blood and guts. ANYONE who goes forth into that hell, whether they fall there or return, deserves my greatest respect regardless of the why.
Do you hear that? That's the sound of no one caring - anon
Disappointed that the many hundreds of remembrance day ceremonies that take place in this country can in any way be misrepresented as glorifying war , have been to several over the years , the overriding sense is of sadness and loss. Contempt for a view that would compare these events with Nuremberg .
I see in your response to T43 that you are now distancing yourself from those comments . I thought you were defending the 'other views' expressed by your political soul mates. To clarify , you find MN claims as ludicrous as i do ?
Yes, when they conveniently lump all our Leaders/Governments into one lazy catch all term 'Elites' , Winston Churchill , Queen Victoria , Tony Blair and every other Leader , all identical motivation , all acted to maintain their privileged position in life ..... left wing ideological nonsense IMO.
I am happy you disagree, the left invest huge amounts of time and energy trying to promote an ideology that they claim removes power from the elites . So many examples of successful Socialist/Communist elite free regimes ! As a student of history you would know there were always elites and it may dawn one day.. there always will be .... but keep fighting the good fight
So Kissinger is representative of all Elites ? Why not a quote from Churchill or Roosevelt ?
Iraq is a good example of why you are wrong, according to you the elite act to maintain their position and power yet Blair took decisions that risked splitting his Government went against public opinion and laid the foundation for his eventual removal from office .He believed he was acting in the National Interest by supporting our closest Ally in their time of need .... what did our elite gain from supporting the US ... nothing .. yes obviously a mistake.
The freedom to vote for their Government , thought you were a fan of democracy.
Never said all sacrifices were , but those that died fighting for our country were the most significant. There are many commemorations for many different groups of people if there is a cause you do not believe has had enough recognition campaign to do something about it.
The agenda is remembering ALL the Dead (Military and Civilian) of All Wars .. what is the agenda of people who suggest that is not the case ? There was plenty of questioning pre and post Iraq it appeared to make little difference .You mention glorification , who is glorifying War ?
I would agree , mistakes are made , any one would think humans aren't perfect.
You and the other critics picked the wrong day , it is like turning up at a funeral to attack those you believe are partly to blame for the death. Which ties in nicely with the original post in this thread , keep campaigns political point scoring away from Remembrance day ,no matter the cause or group .... get your own day.
Senior MP
Indeed - overwhelming is the word I would use....the overriding sense is of sadness and loss.
"The soldier who fights for truth calls his enemy his brother". William Blake
Read what I wrote, Albion. I did not compare them to nuremberg. I said military/ public school ceremonies that I've seen were like nuremberg - in layout and choreography - this is just FACT - A leader taking a high position - everyone in uniform in rank and file - cannon firing falg waving - glorious Britian mentioned at least 200 times - it did look like nuremberg I was there! If you cannot respond to me directly then why bother at all. It is coz u know u r talking rubbish.
Stupid simplification and misrepresentation of the argument. Who ever said they had identical motivation?? Does not change the fact that we have been oppressors of the world and have caused far more harm than good in history and what do u lot do flag wave and sing god save the queen YOU HAVE NO SHAME!Yes, when they conveniently lump all our Leaders/Governments into one lazy catch all term 'Elites' , Winston Churchill , Queen Victoria , Tony Blair and every other Leader , all identical motivation , all acted to maintain their privileged position in life ..... left wing ideological nonsense IMO.
This proves what exactly? That mas murdering Britian is OK coz there have always been elites??- well whatever helps u sleep at night I suppose.I am happy you disagree, the left invest huge amounts of time and energy trying to promote an ideology that they claim removes power from the elites . So many examples of successful Socialist/Communist elite free regimes ! As a student of history you would know there were always elites and it may dawn one day.. there always will be .... but keep fighting the good fight
Iraq was against public opinion yes. A war for elite interest (corporate interest yes). Many died to secure those oil fields including our brave soldiers. But no like most of the UK you are too busy flag waving to see what your government is doing in your name - THIS IS LIKE NAZI GERMANY - - just less bad by degree but is the same logic.People get all nationalist and thus blinded to the crimes of their nations. Whilst you are remembering the dead (and I never criticised this practice btw) people are waving their flags firing guns and singing god save the queen - this is all fine but on that same day it is 'shameful' to point out the crimes committed by this nation....this is very worrying and as I say flag waving nationalism and aggressive opposition to anti-nationalist sentiment well - I stand by this comparison (although note it is actually the first time I have made it on this thread despite what you say) . Think it shameful if you will but more people like me in Nazi Germany may have averted a lot of suffering. Can you not see it any nationalist is the thin end of the wedge?Iraq is a good example of why you are wrong, according to you the elite act to maintain their position and power yet Blair took decisions that risked splitting his Government went against public opinion and laid the foundation for his eventual removal from office .He believed he was acting in the National Interest by supporting our closest Ally in their time of need .... what did our elite gain from supporting the US ... nothing .. yes obviously a mistake.
TYou and others are apologists for the horrors of British history THIS IS TRULY SHAMEFUL - HANG YOUR HEADS IN SHAME! - Worse still you have not the guts to argue me directly but only by proxy. What a wimpy brit you r. By pretending to honor the dead instead you wish to gloss over all the horrors that our army have been ordered to do - why is it so bad to point this out? Remembering is also forgetting - this is the point (is also a point of logic but you would not get that argument) if u truly remembered u would not have a problem with what i have said. I am just remembering historyhe agenda is remembering ALL the Dead (Military and Civilian) of All Wars .. what is the agenda of people who suggest that is not the case ? There was plenty of questioning pre and post Iraq it appeared to make little difference .You mention glorification , who is glorifying War ?
This is not about point scoring it is about keeping nationalism in check and remembering history as it was - not thru rose tinted specs. Alll I've done in this thread is look at history (we are supposed to remember after all). I was defending my right to wear a white poppy. That was my whole point, of my remarks. In so doing I happened to say (almost in passing) that some school services that I have been to do look very much like nuremberg and u pick up on this (make a big deal out of it) misrepresent it and try to paint me as this that and the other (by proxy without speaking or quoting me directly) - pathetic Albion I expected better from youYou and the other critics picked the wrong day , it is like turning up at a funeral to attack those you believe are partly to blame for the death. Which ties in nicely with the original post in this thread , keep campaigns political point scoring away from Remembrance day ,no matter the cause or group .... get your own day.
There is no loony left agenda here. Just a critical view of history and a concern about nationalist practices and what they have historically led to in the past.
Both you and trouble have misrepresented the arguments posed in a very deceitful and dangerous way that concerns me even more. Why does our argument scare you so much - probably coz I have a point
Member
Sorry, I just can NOT take ANYBODY seriously accusing other people of "talking rubbish", when they write the above example of literary skill.
WHAT is that for a pile of shite exactly?
Did you not GO to school or something? "Imbicile" your Mother tongue maybe?
I doubt u have even got a degree despite your claims to the contrary. As you constantly need to say u have a doctorate I think this is masking over your own insecurity?
What exactly is wrong with my writing style? It has managed to get me more qualifications than I believe you to have also your last sentence lacks a verb (ironic that it also contains the word 'imbiclie' :p!!! You need to go back to school mate
Member
I do rather well considering MY first language is NOT English. Although it would appear YOU have the same problem.
Well I do suffer from learning disabilities but I too have done rather well. Please can u be more specific about what exactly I have written which is so wrong it is the only way I can learn. A few typos probably but I think my English is fine ti be honest.
Unlike you however (despite all my qualifications) I do not claim to have all the 'true' answers!
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