You should take rasism of the poll at this is supposedly about muslims not race or am i wrong please tell?

Originally Posted by fubar

You should take rasism of the poll at this is supposedly about muslims not race or am i wrong please tell?

Prejudice against British Muslims is usually about race, indirectly, because most British Muslims have brown skin. To claim otherwise is just a word-game played by the far right to cover up their filthy racism.

Originally Posted by Balthazar

Prejudice against British Muslims is usually about race, indirectly, because most British Muslims have brown skin. To claim otherwise is just a word-game played by the far right to cover up their filthy racism.

Not true, otherwise other non-white communities would experience the same level of prejudice. Since you haven't included the obvious option of religion your poll is fundamentally flawed.

Originally Posted by Balthazar

There's been an upsurge of anti-Muslim hate speech on this forum since the Fort Hood massacre. There's nothing unusual about that. Muslim-haters currently are spewing all over the internet. This thread is designed to analyse their motives.

If you're a Muslim-hater would you mind voting in the attached poll and explaining the basis of your hatred? If you're neutral about Muslims, or have positive feelings towards them, your opinions are also sought.

While not a Muslim myself, I've lived and worked with British Muslims for many years, and take a broadly 'Midas' view:

I haven't voted in your poll because your criteria disqualifies me. I abhor all extremism and for that reason I abhor those Muslims who could accurately be described as 'supremacists'. This would include any who resort to violence in a bid to achieve their ends, including acts of terrorism and all those who would seek to usurp the laws and traditions of our country and replace them with their own.

I would imagine that the percentage of British Muslims who would fall into this category would be in the low single figures; at least I very much hope so. My experience of the vast majority of Muslims, is that they share the same hopes and fears, and contribute as much or as little to society, as the average member of the population at large.

I think Midas has it about right.

Originally Posted by DavidRose

Not true, otherwise other non-white communities would experience the same level of prejudice. Since you haven't included the obvious option of religion your poll is fundamentally flawed.

Other non-white British communities did experience the same level of prejudice, e.g. Jews in the 1930s, blacks in the 1970s. Both groups fought back, just as Muslims are learning to do now.

Which goes to the crux of white racism directed at British Muslims: the racists were used to bullying the little Muslim boy at school. What they can't stand is he's now fighting back. Add to that jealousy within the white working class about the high levels of cohesion within British Muslim communities and the picture is complete. The whites look at their own crime, drug and unemployment-racked estates and feel shame, envy and anger that the Muslims organise their lives so much better.

Of course the racists never mention these things because they reflect badly on them. So they make up lies about terrorism, burkas, sharia, and the Muslim birth rate. Exactly the sort of lies that they made up about Jews and blacks to cover their cowardly racism.

Muslim bashing is due to fear. I work with muslims and you cannot work with nicer bunch of people. The small minority are mischeivious and create fear, however as I was verbally attacked by some young muslims they may fear us as well.

Someone put jealousy... Obviously Balthazar did that.

Balthazar, I am going to play your game. Why the hell would we be jealous of anti-democracy, anti-freedom bastards who seek to destroy our way of life?

^^ What a very generalised statement about a minority of Muslims... Just like you comments of the white working class...

Thus by your logic, my comments are entirely justified...

Originally Posted by Balthazar

There's been an upsurge of anti-Muslim hate speech on this forum since the Fort Hood massacre. There's nothing unusual about that. Muslim-haters currently are spewing all over the internet. This thread is designed to analyse their motives.

Has there been an upsurge of anti-Muslim hate speech on this forum?
I haven't seen it at all.

There was no reply suitable for me in your poll as I don't have any motivation or desire to bash Muslims.

Originally Posted by Balthazar

Other non-white British communities did experience the same level of prejudice, e.g. Jews in the 1930s, blacks in the 1970s. Both groups fought back, just as Muslims are learning to do now.

Blacks are a race, not a religion. Jews can be either. Muslims are only a religion. Why isn't this thread called 'Asian Bashing'? Is it because such an argument would sound hollow?

Which goes to the crux of white racism directed at British Muslims: the racists were used to bullying the little Muslim boy at school. What they can't stand is he's now fighting back. Add to that jealousy within the white working class about the high levels of cohesion within British Muslim communities and the picture is complete. The whites look at their own crime, drug and unemployment-racked estates and feel shame, envy and anger that the Muslims organise their lives so much better.

I think your exposing your own insecurities here, in typical liberal fashion. Being physically stronger and bigger is not the result of some inferiority, that sounds like the weak bemoaning the injustices of life. So what if you were bullied at school, you need to get over it and move on.

Of course the racists never mention these things because they reflect badly on them. So they make up lies about terrorism, burkas, sharia, and the Muslim birth rate. Exactly the sort of lies that they made up about Jews and blacks to cover their cowardly racism.

Sure, the London bombers were actually what, Sikhs? Christianity and Islam have been at war for thousands of years, but your only interested in hysterical ranting about 'racism', so you include every option except the one which makes any sense.

Fundamentally flawed poll. There are no options for hijackings, beheadings, throwing acid into the faces of women, car bombings, suicide bombings, and generally spreading their religion through the use of the sword.

Originally Posted by Balthazar

Other non-white British communities did experience the same level of prejudice, e.g. Jews in the 1930s, blacks in the 1970s. Both groups fought back, just as Muslims are learning to do now.

Which goes to the crux of white racism directed at British Muslims: the racists were used to bullying the little Muslim boy at school. What they can't stand is he's now fighting back. Add to that jealousy within the white working class about the high levels of cohesion within British Muslim communities and the picture is complete. The whites look at their own crime, drug and unemployment-racked estates and feel shame, envy and anger that the Muslims organise their lives so much better.

Of course the racists never mention these things because they reflect badly on them. So they make up lies about terrorism, burkas, sharia, and the Muslim birth rate. Exactly the sort of lies that they made up about Jews and blacks to cover their cowardly racism.

There is no difference(where i come from at least) in the cohesion of Muslim and or any other groups.Some neighbourhoods are ****e others are decent some(a small number are very nice).The Mix of people in these areas is pretty balenced whilst there are some areas that are ghettoised as White working class, Mostly Black and mostly asian.

Thornton Lodge in Huddersfield is Mostly Asian and probably muslim, it is a ****hole and extremely violent.

Brackenhall is mostly west indian and is a ****hole.

Pip Hill is mostly white and is also a ****hole.


Other areas are divided along racial type lines and are weathier.Some others are not divided at all and are as nice or as ****e as the people living there make em.

I was raised in Paddock, a very nice low crime working class area with a very diverse hard working population of all races.

Dont bring them London Prejudices into the North we dont want or need your racism and prejudice, in Yorkshire we know how to see a problem and seperate it from hate, its the same across the board!!

Originally Posted by Tantal

Fundamentally flawed poll. There are no options for hijackings, beheadings, throwing acid into the faces of women, car bombings, suicide bombings, and generally spreading their religion through the use of the sword.

I didn't realise that we were talking about Christians.

Originally Posted by Ian The Poet

Muslim is due to fear. I work with muslims and you cannot work with nicer bunch of people. The small minority are mischeivious and create fear, however as I was verbally attacked by some young muslims they may fear us as well.

You havent got a clue whats being taught about you in their local mosques. The people arent the problem, its the religion.

Originally Posted by Kiwi 1691

I didn't realise that we were talking about Christians.

Oh sure, because when everybody thinks of religiously motivated terror, they automatically think of Christians.

Originally Posted by Tantal

Oh sure, because when everybody thinks of religiously motivated terror, they automatically think of Christians.

Of course, as Christians are the ones who have committed some of the worst atrocities in the name of "god".

Originally Posted by Kiwi 1691

Of course, as Christians are the ones who have committed some of the worst atrocities in the name of "god".

Both faiths are dreadful in terms of history.

The issue with Islam is that they are bombing us today, whereas those of the Christian faith did it a while ago. Also, what makes the Islam terrorists worse, is that they just wise to destroy the west -_-

Generally, people are not happy with being the target of death and destruction by a bunch of lunatics.

Originally Posted by Liberal Authoritarian

Why the hell would we be jealous of anti-democracy, anti-freedom bastards who seek to destroy our way of life?

It's the community cohesion poor old whitey's jealous about. When my mum visits my area of London she says the local Muslim community reminds her of what white working class London was like in the 1940s and 50s: less family breakdown, fewer absent fathers, less long-term unemployment, less of a drug problem, neighbours keeping an eye on the vulnerable and intervening with practical help if people went off the rails, a greater self-confidence, pride and class solidarity.

That's what these wretched, anti-Muslim whites are jealous of, the ones currently spewing hate following Fort Hood, and making up lies about Islam being a 'threat to the West.' British Muslim communities display precisely the values they've lost or, in the case of the white suburban bourgeoisie who constitute UKIP and their ilk, never had to start with.

What to do about poor jealous whitey whose culture is so weak and fractured some nice Muslim with a beard is oh so threatening?

The obvious solution is to give Muslim elders access to British schools to instruct white teenagers on traditional British values: avoiding getting up the duff at 14, respecting your family, working hard, avoiding illegal drugs, not vomiting in the gutter on Saturday night, keeping one's tits in one's bra if at all possible.

The key thing is to confront jealous whitey direct, not to beat about the bush: tell him to his face his culture's crap, explain that's a major reason for his anti-Muslim prejudice, and offer to help him get out of the hole he's dug for himself. Certainly, whenever whitey attacks Muslim culture there should be an immediate counter-attack on white culture.

I know many Muslims who'd be happy to help. They're busy people but are patriots and well meaning so might be willing to give up, say, an evening a month to assist the British white population regain its pride and self-respect.

Originally Posted by Liberal Authoritarian

Both faiths are dreadful in terms of history.

The issue with Islam is that they are bombing us today, whereas those of the Christian faith did it a while ago. Also, what makes the Islam terrorists worse, is that they just wise to destroy the west -_-

Generally, people are not happy with being the target of death and destruction by a bunch of lunatics.

LA, most of the hatred of the west in amongst Muslims is our fault. The actions of Western nations treating Middle Eastern nations. I remember onetime Osama Bin Laden said that one of the major reasons for the 9/11 attacks on the USA was America's support for Israel and the atrocities that Israel commits.

Plus the extinct British Empire (that LA loves so very much) also contributed to the anger.

Originally Posted by Kiwi 1691

LA, most of the hatred of the west in amongst Muslims is our fault. The actions of Western nations treating Middle Eastern nations. I remember onetime Osama Bin Laden said that one of the major reasons for the 9/11 attacks on the USA was America's support for Israel and the atrocities that Israel commits.

Plus the extinct British Empire (that LA loves so very much) also contributed to the anger.

The example you have given is not a reason.
By your logic, as the Americans supported the IRA we should bomb America.

Originally Posted by Liberal Authoritarian

The example you have given is not a reason.
By your logic, as the Americans supported the IRA we should bomb America.

I am giving reasons why they are angry at the west, in reality the anger at the west is understandable.

Originally Posted by Kiwi 1691

LA, most of the hatred of the west in amongst Muslims is our fault. The actions of Western nations treating Middle Eastern nations. I remember onetime Osama Bin Laden said that one of the major reasons for the 9/11 attacks on the USA was America's support for Israel and the atrocities that Israel commits.

Well exactly. The truth is that most Muslims living in the West have been paragons of tolerance, while faced with:

• hundreds of thousands of brother and sister Muslims killed and maimed by Anglo-Saxon forces in Iraq and Afghanistan
  
• the ongoing Palestine genocide supported by the West
  
• the daily drip-drip of lies and anti-Muslim prejudice published on forums such as this

Given that background most Muslims have been positively Gandhiesque. Long may it continue. It reflects very well on their religion and culture that confronted by murderous, lying, hate-filled whitey, the vast majority of Western Muslims remain peaceful, rational, and willing to help the Anglo-Saxons get over their manifest problems.

But it's important to be upfront with jealous, murderous, lying whitey. Like any bully he shouldn't be given an inch.

Originally Posted by Kiwi 1691

I am giving reasons why they are angry at the west, in reality the anger at the west is understandable.

Americans caused death and suffering in Britain by supporting the IRA, so we should be incredibly angry and bomb them yes?

That is a good reason to be angry?


We got rid of Hussein? Next time there is a dictator killing the Muslims, we should just let them continue. If a british Government refused to help, people like you would be the first to complain and yet you say they have a right to be angry when we do help.

Originally Posted by Balthazar

Prejudice against British Muslims is usually about race, indirectly, because most British Muslims have brown skin. To claim otherwise is just a word-game played by the far right to cover up their filthy racism.

I'd beg to differ on that, I believe that most, but accepted not all, of the prejudice against Muslims is based far more on a mixture of ignorance and religion, exacerbated by the media and their own all too frequent ghettoization of neighbourhoods, than on race per se, brown skin notwithstanding.

The far too liberal use of the word 'racism' or 'racist', especially when said in such emotive ways as you did - "filthy racism" - can be as bad in perpetuating the problem as racism itself, with the politically correct all too frequently seeking out instances where race itself isn't the real issue but putting racial overtones on it; a sort of self-fulfilling prophecy to justify their own views.

Originally Posted by Midas

I'd beg to differ on that, I believe that most, but accepted not all, of the prejudice against Muslims is based far more on a mixture of ignorance and religion, exacerbated by the media and their own all too frequent ghettoization of neighbourhoods, than on race per se, brown skin notwithstanding.

The far too liberal use of the word 'racism' or 'racist', especially when said in such emotive ways as you did - "filthy racism" - can be as bad in perpetuating the problem as racism itself, with the politically correct all too frequently seeking out instances where race itself isn't the real issue but putting racial overtones on it; a sort of self-fulfilling prophecy to justify their own views.

While excluding you from this category, I take pretty much the opposite view. The anti-PC movement which has grown up in recent years, far from being a reaction to lefties, liberals and ethnics playing the race card, is a technique deployed by bigots, racists, and those with an ideological anti-Muslim agenda, who wish to say vile things about Muslims but then hide behind the anti-PC card when challenged. So it's a racists' charter, masquerading as a principled free speech position.

It's also grounded on bullying and hypocrisy. When you sling the criticism back in the faces of the PC-brigade and subject their culture - usually white, bourgeois and conservative - to similarly trenchant criticism, oh how they scream, oh how they accuse their attacker of 'wacism' oh how they play the race card!

So they're hypocritical bullies, in other words, who hand it out to Muslims - a maligned, defensive, British religious minority whose relatives abroad are being killed and maimed in large numbers by an Anglo-Saxon military - but can't take it.

I'd also argue that the racist, hypocritical bullying of a defensive religious minority is highly un-British and therefore unpatriotic. It's anti-fair play, anti-defense of the underdog, insults guests in our country, and spits in the face of the values my parents' generation fought for in WW2.

So, on a number of levels, the anti-PC brigade is a sorry bunch and deserves to be poked with a stick whenever possible.

Balthazar, many don't mind you criticising the working class.
The problem is, you are painting the Muslims (some of whom are vile) in a very high standard, whilst applying your comments about the working class to a huge group - even when your comments are untrue about that group.

Criticise the working class all you wish, but at least keep the true comments to the correct group and stop trying to paint Muslims as perfect. They are far from it.

Originally Posted by Liberal Authoritarian

Criticise the working class all you wish, but at least keep the true comments to the correct group and stop trying to paint Muslims as perfect. They are far from it.

While I agree that there are a minority of Muslims that are radical and dangerous, it is certainly a minority.

Also, to say that Muslims are far from perfect is surely applying the same discrimination that Balthazar is using against the working class?

Originally Posted by James

While I agree that there are a minority of Muslims that are radical and dangerous, it is certainly a minority.

Also, to say that Muslims are far from perfect is surely applying the same discrimination that Balthazar is using against the working class?

I said minority.

Also, Muslims are far from perfect, just like every other human. The problem is Balthazar is painting an image of perfection within the Muslim community.

Originally Posted by Balthazar

While excluding you from this category, I take pretty much the opposite view.

No surprise there then

The anti-PC movement which has grown up in recent years, far from being a reaction to lefties, liberals and ethnics playing the race card, is a technique deployed by bigots, racists, and those with an ideological anti-Muslim agenda, who wish to say vile things about Muslims but then hide behind the anti-PC card when challenged. So it's a racists' charter, masquerading as a principled free speech position.

It's also grounded on bullying and hypocrisy. When you sling the criticism back in the faces of the PC-brigade and subject their culture - usually white, bourgeois and conservative - to similarly trenchant criticism, oh how they scream, oh how they accuse their attacker of 'wacism' oh how they play the race card!

So they're hypocritical bullies, in other words, who hand it out to Muslims - a maligned, defensive, British religious minority whose relatives abroad are being killed and maimed in large numbers by an Anglo-Saxon military - but can't take it.

I'd also argue that the racist, hypocritical bullying of a defensive religious minority is highly un-British and therefore unpatriotic. It's anti-fair play, anti-defense of the underdog, insults guests in our country, and spits in the face of the values my parents' generation fought for in WW2.

So, on a number of levels, the anti-PC brigade is a sorry bunch and deserves to be poked with a stick whenever possible.

But coming from someone who in the past has said, or at least alluded to, making his living from attacking businesses who are accused, often by the very biased and disgruntled, of allegedly committing racist or other such heinous employment 'crimes', I wouldn't expect you to agree with me! I'm sure there is some genuine racism out there, but having twice been on the receiving end of such allegations, both ultimately found to be totally false but only after months of expensive battling with the PC brigade determined to prove 'their' case, right or wrong, you'd hardly expect me to say otherwise!

Originally Posted by Liberal Authoritarian

Americans caused death and suffering in Britain by supporting the IRA, so we should be incredibly angry and bomb them yes?

That is a good reason to be angry?


We got rid of Hussein? Next time there is a dictator killing the Muslims, we should just let them continue. If a British Government refused to help, people like you would be the first to complain and yet you say they have a right to be angry when we do help.

So if a group spent many centuries invading you and ripping you off would you care? I think you would.

Help? yea, you sure helped the people. Civilians in the capital have lived in fear since the invasion occurred. I would never complain about people who chose to stay out of something as immoral and disgusting as the Iraq war.

The Queen of England is an evil dictator, does that mean the west should bomb the life out of, then occupy the UK?

Originally Posted by Kiwi 1691

So if a group spent many centuries invading you and ripping you off would you care? I think you would.

Romans,
Viking,
French...

Don't play that argument with Britain

Help? yea, you sure helped the people. Civilians in the capital have lived in fear since the invasion occurred. I would never complain about people who chose to stay out of something as immoral and disgusting as the Iraq war.

Okay, lets reinstate a dictator and let them all die.
I like the way you think

The Queen of England is an evil dictator, does that mean the west should bomb the life out of, then occupy the UK?

A dictator?

Haha.

Originally Posted by Kiwi 1691

The Queen of England is an evil dictator, does that mean the west should bomb the life out of, then occupy the UK?

Either my eyes deceive me, or I am reading rubbish.
For one thing the Queen of England, is actually the Queen of the United Kingdom. She heads a democracy (OK it's debateable HOW democratic). She is a God fearing woman and could hardly be described as evil.

Please don't post this again - you could end up in the Tower of London!

Sorry, getting

Originally Posted by Balthazar

There's been an upsurge of anti-Muslim hate speech on this forum since the Fort Hood massacre. There's nothing unusual about that. Muslim-haters currently are spewing all over the internet. This thread is designed to analyse their motives.

If you're a Muslim-hater would you mind voting in the attached poll and explaining the basis of your hatred? If you're neutral about Muslims, or have positive feelings towards them, your opinions are also sought.

While not a Muslim myself, I've lived and worked with British Muslims for many years, and take a broadly 'Midas' view:

I think most people hate Islam not Muslims; I think you are barking up the wrong tree. As the old saying goes, there are moderate Muslims but there is no moderate Islam. People in general are nice but even the nicest of people can get brain washed by the darker side of Islam.

Flying planes into buildings or blowing themselves up to kill innocent people in the name of your religion. Says it all really. Yes they are the minority of Muslims, but why are there so many of them?

You can’t blame it on everyone else all the time. It won’t matter if our governments were in these illegal wars or not, we would still have an Islamic extremist problem in this country. Why? Because there are 2.5 million Muslims who worship a religion that conflicts with the ideals of the country they live in. We are asking for trouble if you ask me.

As long as Islam is in this country there will always be a threat of Islamic extremism. This is just something we will have to learn to deal with or vote BNP.

Islam is always more important to a Muslim than the country they live in, one key point.

Originally Posted by SussexWithLove

Flying planes into buildings or blowing themselves up to kill innocent people in the name of your religion. Says it all really. Yes they are the minority of Muslims, but why are there so many of them?

From perhaps hundreds of discussions with Muslims over many years I'd distill a very simple answer. What they see as western, mainly American, interference and attempts at both commercial and military domination over the normal day to day lives of Muslims in their own countries.

Originally Posted by SussexWithLove

I think most people hate Islam not Muslims; I think you are barking up the wrong tree. As the old saying goes, there are moderate Muslims but there is no moderate Islam. People in general are nice but even the nicest of people can get brain washed by the darker side of Islam.

Flying planes into buildings or blowing themselves up to kill innocent people in the name of your religion. Says it all really. Yes they are the minority of Muslims, but why are there so many of them?

You can’t blame it on everyone else all the time. It won’t matter if our governments were in these illegal wars or not, we would still have an Islamic extremist problem in this country. Why? Because there are 2.5 million Muslims who worship a religion that conflicts with the ideals of the country they live in. We are asking for trouble if you ask me.

As long as Islam is in this country there will always be a threat of Islamic extremism. This is just something we will have to learn to deal with or vote BNP.

Islam is always more important to a Muslim than the country they live in, one key point.

This is the trick Griffin tried on Question Time: the claim there's something structurally dangerous, alien, un-British about Islam; that Muslims are intrinsically incapable of being good British citizens.

It's precisely the technique racists always use. They did it to the Jews in the 1930s, claiming they were part of an international Jewish conspiracy. They did it to the blacks in the 1970s, claiming they're stupid, closer to apes than white people, incapable of being civilized citizens.

Now the racists, e,g, you, are doing it to British Muslims. It's a standard, easily recognised, tried and tested technique to drive a wedge between people on grounds of ethnicity. It's the initial, ideological foundation to provoking a race war.

And don't give me that crap about it being about religion, not race. Everyone knows the vast majority of British Muslims are brown or black skinned. So when you attack them on grounds of religion you're also attacking them as an ethnic minority.

But well done for coming out with the central racist arguments currently being applied by the political right to British Muslims. It proves the truth and worth of this thread.

Balthazar, your overuse of the word racist/racism to describe anything that you disagree with in regards to Muslims is pathetic. Due to your attack on the white working class, you are a racist bastard.

Stop being so hypocritical.

Originally Posted by Liberal Authoritarian

Balthazar, your overuse of the word racist/racism to describe anything that you disagree with in regards to Muslims is pathetic. Due to your attack on the white working class, you are a racist bastard.

Stop being so hypocritical.

LA, dear old fella. Re-read your post. Can you see what's wrong with it?

Originally Posted by Balthazar

This is the trick Griffin tried on Question Time: the claim there's something structurally dangerous, alien, un-British about Islam; that Muslims are intrinsically incapable of being good British citizens. .

One of the core messages of Islam is that you (as a muslim) are united under Islam and your alliance to God comes before everything else.

Thats fine in eastern countries but it is not our ideology and will lead to conflict as it already has.

Originally Posted by Balthazar

This is the trick Griffin tried on Question Time: the claim there's something structurally dangerous, alien, un-British about Islam; that Muslims are intrinsically incapable of being good British citizens.

But Griffin's correct in saying that Islam was not neccessary for social stability in Britain prior to the Great War and is, therefore, not neccessary now.

Originally Posted by DavidRose

But Griffin's correct in saying that Islam was not neccessary for social stability in Britain prior to the Great War and is, therefore, not neccessary now.

But that's hardly a reason for saying it shouldn't be here... just because we never used to have Islam with Britain, doesn't mean that it is a negative thing at all...

Originally Posted by James

But that's hardly a reason for saying it shouldn't be here... just because we never used to have Islam with Britain, doesn't mean that it is a negative thing at all...

I agree. But it does give us a logical foundation on which to examine the issue further.

Given the Protestant culture that historically dominates British life, with its emphasis on freedom and commerce, an all encompassing religion like Islam - which is as intrusive in many respects as the Catholic Church - would overall be a negative thing for the U.K. and its future.

Originally Posted by DavidRose

I agree. But it does give us a logical foundation on which to examine the issue further.

Given the Protestant culture that historically dominates British life, with its emphasis on freedom and commerce, an all encompassing religion like Islam - which is as intrusive in many respects as the Catholic Church - would overall be a negative thing for the U.K. and its future.

Certainly it would if any aspects of it were ever to be incorporated into British law. However regardless of my personal opinions, as long as those who choose to practice it do so without any attempts to proselytise or make demands, that's really up to them. The big danger right now is that the government is bending over backwards to appease minority groups against the wishes of the majority, and once we've started down that road it's very difficult for any future administration to stop, and particularly to reverse, those changes.

Originally Posted by Midas

From perhaps hundreds of discussions with Muslims over many years I'd distill a very simple answer. What they see as western, mainly American, interference and attempts at both commercial and military domination over the normal day to day lives of Muslims in their own countries.

Midas do you agree with the withdrawl of troops from Afganistan. Because there are many people who think it will only make things worse as the muslims will look on it as a victory and commit more effort in bringing the war to Europe.

Originally Posted by Balthazar

This is the trick Griffin tried on Question Time: the claim there's something structurally dangerous, alien, un-British about Islam; that Muslims are intrinsically incapable of being good British citizens.

Wrong. I dont think Muslims are incapable of being good British citizens. Im sure there are plenty who are. My point is that Islam is not British and it never will be.

There is nothing British about Islam at all and as I said before, if a Muslim had to choose between their faith or their country their faith would win everytime. I dont blame Muslims for this, they are just doing what a good Muslim would do.

The fact is it breeds extremism like no other religion.

Originally Posted by Balthazar

It's precisely the technique racists always use.

Pointing out faults with a religion isnt racist. Thats a fact.

I actually think relgion as a concept does more harm than good. Does that mean im racist towards every race? No. So you are talking crap.

Originally Posted by Balthazar

They did it to the Jews in the 1930s, claiming they were part of an international Jewish conspiracy.

Who said Judaism breeds extremism?

Did jewish people fly planes into buildings or blow themselves up on buses in the name of their religion?

Originally Posted by Balthazar

They did it to the blacks in the 1970s, claiming they're stupid, closer to apes than white people, incapable of being civilized citizens.

Being black isnt a religion.

Originally Posted by Balthazar

Now the racists, e,g, you, are doing it to British Muslims. It's a standard, easily recognised, tried and tested technique to drive a wedge between people on grounds of ethnicity. It's the initial, ideological foundation to provoking a race war.

Im not attacking Muslims. Im attacking Islam, so it doesnt make me racist. I couldnt care less if Muslims were white, black, brown or green.

Originally Posted by Balthazar

And don't give me that crap about it being about religion, not race. Everyone knows the vast majority of British Muslims are brown or black skinned. So when you attack them on grounds of religion you're also attacking them as an ethnic minority.

Islam doesnt have skin. Only the people who worship Islam have skin and I have no problem with them.

Originally Posted by Balthazar

But well done for coming out with the central racist arguments currently being applied by the political right to British Muslims. It proves the truth and worth of this thread.

Its not just people on the right who have an issue with Islam.

Originally Posted by fubar

Midas do you agree with the withdrawl of troops from Afganistan. Because there are many people who think it will only make things worse as the muslims will look on it as a victory and commit more effort in bringing the war to Europe.

Yes, I do think we should withdraw our troops, but not for reasons of appeasing the Islamic community, although I'd venture to say that the majority of them will look on it as a well meaning gesture as long as it's presented correctly by both the government and the media. My reasons for wanting a withdrawal are far more pragmatic; we're fighting a battle we can't win and for reasons which are highly dubious, both morally and legally.

Originally Posted by Midas

From perhaps hundreds of discussions with Muslims over many years I'd distill a very simple answer. What they see as western, mainly American, interference and attempts at both commercial and military domination over the normal day to day lives of Muslims in their own countries.

"Moderate" Muslim: They want to spread their religion for the good of the world, using words.

"Extremist" Muslim: They want to spread their religion for the good of the world using violence.

Moderate and Extremist Muslims: If we the non-believers (Kaffers) don’t submit, (Islam means submit to God), we will burn in eternal hell. Thats nice, living next door to someone who thinks you deserve to go to hell.

Ask a modern Methodist victor if you will burn in eternal hell for not believing in his god.

The extremists use our government’s poor show as the excuse for Moderate Muslims to put aside their words and pick up their sword.

Are we thinking that Muslims are homogeneous?
Nothing could be further from the truth.

Islam is not the panacea for a broken society, we only need to look at the hatred between Iran and Saudi Arabia to see huge divisions between Islam's followers.

Now that Iraq is a mostly Islamic country, is it peaceful, is it hell? The Sunnis and Shias are at it like hammer and tongs, killing each other.

Originally Posted by Barry

Are we thinking that Muslims are homogeneous?
Nothing could be further from the truth.

Islam is not the panacea for a broken society, we only need to look at the hatred between Iran and Saudi Arabia to see huge divisions between Islam's followers.

Now that Iraq is a mostly Islamic country, is it peaceful, is it hell? The Sunnis and Shias are at it like hammer and tongs, killing each other.

Barry stop posting your anti-Islamic racism and white supremacy on this forum. As Balthazar has pointed out, those of us who make these sorts of comments are racist, or "jealous" of these Muslims.

I am jealous... I want a bomb too!

Originally Posted by Midas

Yes, I do think we should withdraw our troops, but not for reasons of appeasing the Islamic community, although I'd venture to say that the majority of them will look on it as a well meaning gesture as long as it's presented correctly by both the government and the media. My reasons for wanting a withdrawal are far more pragmatic; we're fighting a battle we can't win and for reasons which are highly dubious, both morally and legally.

The legality of the afgan war as never been quantified, the terrorist attack on sep 11 qualify as an armed attack of 'course it does' the inherent right of self defence requires an armed responce imo equaly would nato have got involed if it was not legal. As thay invoked artical 5 of it's charter declaring the attack on the USA to be an attack on all NATO members therefore quite legal.

I think it would be a big mistake to pull out of Afghistan as Pakistan is under attack from muslim terrorists an the the fear grows for the safety of the pakistanie peaple and the fact that that pakistan has the atomic bomb and is at risk of becoming under control af muslim fundermentalists. I can see no way to make a withdrawl,Withdrawl runs the risk of the fundermentalist gaining power with the risk of an nuclear attack or threat of, at best hold the western world to ransom. Either one not an option is it?