I'm sure a lot of people could easily use a horrific incident like this as justification for citizens being armed!

Originally Posted by Midas

I'm sure a lot of people could easily use a horrific incident like this as justification for citizens being armed!

Absolutely!!!

I mean its things like this that make you think you should have a secret word that you write at the end of every text message...so that your partner / wife / friend know that if your text message doesnt have that word at the end...there is trouble afoot...and they need to inform the police.

This particular case makes me think of a cross between reservoir dogs and a clockwork orange...I cant bear to begin to imagine the terror!

Horific it is and it could have been worse. Three things bother me greatly;

1. From my perspective it appears that the charges brought sound mild compared to the details of the crime. I suspect and hope that stems from my misunderstanding of UK law. Is there no charge of Rape in your legal system. "Actual Bodily Harm" is that what they call rape, sodomy and torture? Sounds mild to me.

2. What is so wrong about the basic concept of self defense? Honestly I can see how some, even many, are against the idea of the armed citizen on the street (I don't agree but that's another endless debate) but I cannot begin to understand the idea that self defense in one's own home is somehow uncivilized? So you don't misunderstand, I own no material possession that I consider worth a life. I'm fully insured for material possessions. The lives of my family and myself however are not up for discussion.

3. I also note that this last miscreant used a "gun" in the commission of his rape and sodomy. Here we have, in a gun free society, a budding sociopath using an illegal firearm in the comission of multiple felonies and no mention of a gun in the charges. ???

Originally Posted by Don

Horific it is and it could have been worse. Three things bother me greatly;

1. From my perspective it appears that the charges brought sound mild compared to the details of the crime. I suspect and hope that stems from my misunderstanding of UK law. Is there no charge of Rape in your legal system. "Actual Bodily Harm" is that what they call rape, sodomy and torture? Sounds mild to me.

Oh, we have a specific rape charge too, which can carry some very heavy sentences, including life imprisonment.

2. What is so wrong about the basic concept of self defense? Honestly I can see how some, even many, are against the idea of the armed citizen on the street (I don't agree but that's another endless debate) but I cannot begin to understand the idea that self defense in one's own home is somehow uncivilized? So you don't misunderstand, I own no material possession that I consider worth a life. I'm fully insured for material possessions. The lives of my family and myself however are not up for discussion.

Absolutely nothing in principle, and I for one believe that the law here regarding self defence should be relaxed somewhat so that someone using force, which might sometimes be a bit on the heavy side, won't run the risk of prosecution. Although a gun owner myself, I do have very significant doubts about the relaxation of gun laws in this country for the simple reason I feel it would actually exacerbate gun crime. In the USA where there's already very widespread gun ownership and gun crime, being able to use them for defence makes much more sense than in a society where it's just not necessary. But as you say, that's a different subject.

3. I also note that this last miscreant used a "gun" in the commission of his rape and sodomy. Here we have, in a gun free society, a budding sociopath using an illegal firearm in the comission of multiple felonies and no mention of a gun in the charges. ???

I would imagine that like the charge of rape, not everything has been reported in that article.

Originally Posted by Midas

I would imagine that like the charge of rape, not everything has been reported in that article.

I, for one, certainly hope the hell not! Any idea where we could get the full story re the charges? Hopefully the prosecution did not reduce the charges just to get an easier conviction. I see that done so often over here that it, as a prosecutor friend once told a judge in open court; "It 'sickitates' me Your Honor".

Sometimes ongoing cases have elements within them that cannot be reported.
The offences charged carry sufficient penalties, if the judge sees fit to impose the maximum.
Aggravated robbery is robbery involving the use of a deadly weapon.
Maximum sentence - life.

I won't rely on dogs, knives, guns .... I will rely on you. I will rely on you to say what is wrong in every little aspect...I will trust in you to see that I can shop, collect my children and attend my gardenin club. If I can't trust in those who have a home and family of their own to ensure that I will look to theirs, then I am a poor mother. I have the responsibility that I share

benefits of a village

Originally Posted by uncon

I won't rely on dogs, knives, guns .... I will rely on you. I will rely on you to say what is wrong in every little aspect...I will trust in you to see that I can shop, collect my children and attend my gardenin club. If I can't trust in those who have a home and family of their own to ensure that I will look to theirs, then I am a poor mother. I have the responsibility that I share

benefits of a village

Hi,

I applaud your comment, as I understand it.

Please correct me if I have misunderstood you! Do I understand you have no intention to view everyon with a jaundiced eye and breed fear into your children when it is statistically safer to trust people, who will themselves protect you. It is clear that whatever this unfortunate pair had done they could NOT have prevented their ordeal but perhaps a more vigilant society could have.

I agree with your advocacy of a village but then again studies show mankind is happiest in a small village community of between 30 >60 homes thus 70 > 200 people.

Regards,
Greg L-W.

Originally Posted by Don

Horific it is and it could have been worse. Three things bother me greatly;

1. From my perspective it appears that the charges brought sound mild compared to the details of the crime. I suspect and hope that stems from my misunderstanding of UK law. Is there no charge of Rape in your legal system. "Actual Bodily Harm" is that what they call rape, sodomy and torture? Sounds mild to me.

2. What is so wrong about the basic concept of self defense? Honestly I can see how some, even many, are against the idea of the armed citizen on the street (I don't agree but that's another endless debate) but I cannot begin to understand the idea that self defense in one's own home is somehow uncivilized? So you don't misunderstand, I own no material possession that I consider worth a life. I'm fully insured for material possessions. The lives of my family and myself however are not up for discussion.

3. I also note that this last miscreant used a "gun" in the commission of his rape and sodomy. Here we have, in a gun free society, a budding sociopath using an illegal firearm in the comission of multiple felonies and no mention of a gun in the charges. ???

What I would guess is that the website is making **** up...

1. Yes we do, and if they weren't convicted of it then it didn't legally happen. It would be very easy to prove the level of sexual abuse that was reported in that article and for them not to have been convicted of it suggests that it is made up.

2. Fair enough, yes. I'm not sure what you're saying, I think that this point is pretty non-arguable.

3. Again this may have been made up. TheRatBook isn't exactly a reliable source, written by exactly the sort of people who you would expect to be obsessed with criminals. I also got a warning that it is listed as a malware spreader upon visiting it. Its not the most trustworthy source.

If all of that happened then my deepest sympathies are with the victims. BUT I really doubt that events did unfold exactly as reported there. I mean, who even writes it? There's loads of spelling mistakes in the other articles that I've browsed and half of them just seem to be verbal diarrhea of some obsessive and frankly disturbing people.

http://www.theratbook.com/Articles/A...ith_blowtourch

Arsonist attacked fireman with blowtourch
Greater London > London Borough of Haringey
Article from December 18, 2009
An arsonist attacked a crew of firemen with a blowtorch when they tried to extinguish a blaze he had started in his own home, a court heard.
Firefighters had to turn their hose on Michael Bailey, 42, after he screamed abuse and charged them with a gas canister at the house in Tottenham, n London, it is said.

IT IS SAID?! My god, that pretty much sums up how terrified I am about this website. Looks like the hearsay and false allegations have already begun. My bet is a high profile lawsuit against the site before May.

Originally Posted by DougieG

What I would guess is that the website is making **** up...

1. Yes we do, and if they weren't convicted of it then it didn't legally happen. It would be very easy to prove the level of sexual abuse that was reported in that article and for them not to have been convicted of it suggests that it is made up.

2. Fair enough, yes. I'm not sure what you're saying, I think that this point is pretty non-arguable.

3. Again this may have been made up. TheRatBook isn't exactly a reliable source, written by exactly the sort of people who you would expect to be obsessed with criminals. I also got a warning that it is listed as a malware spreader upon visiting it. Its not the most trustworthy source.

If all of that happened then my deepest sympathies are with the victims. BUT I really doubt that events did unfold exactly as reported there. I mean, who even writes it? There's loads of spelling mistakes in the other articles that I've browsed and half of them just seem to be verbal diarrhea of some obsessive and frankly disturbing people.

Name and shame website. Child abuse, paedophiles, rapists, murder, knife crime.



IT IS SAID?! My god, that pretty much sums up how terrified I am about this website. Looks like the hearsay and false allegations have already begun. My bet is a high profile lawsuit against the site before May.

I cant find anywhere on the site which says who writes the articles - but they must be pretty ballsy if they are making it all up, as you say, there could be a HUGE lawsuit pending!

Originally Posted by Mr_Kajooga

I cant find anywhere on the site which says who writes the articles - but they must be pretty ballsy if they are making it all up, as you say, there could be a HUGE lawsuit pending!

I doubt its all totally made up. But I dare say that there's a lot of hearsay going on.

Originally Posted by DougieG

I doubt its all totally made up. But I dare say that there's a lot of hearsay going on.

Sounds like The Sun

Originally Posted by Mr_Kajooga

Sounds like The Sun

Yeah this site is probably the Sun and Mail's hacks just making a quick bob.

Originally Posted by DougieG

What I would guess is that the website is making **** up...

1. Yes we do, and if they weren't convicted of it then it didn't legally happen. It would be very easy to prove the level of sexual abuse that was reported in that article and for them not to have been convicted of it suggests that it is made up.

2. Fair enough, yes. I'm not sure what you're saying, I think that this point is pretty non-arguable.

3. Again this may have been made up. TheRatBook isn't exactly a reliable source, written by exactly the sort of people who you would expect to be obsessed with criminals. I also got a warning that it is listed as a malware spreader upon visiting it. Its not the most trustworthy source.

If all of that happened then my deepest sympathies are with the victims. BUT I really doubt that events did unfold exactly as reported there. I mean, who even writes it? There's loads of spelling mistakes in the other articles that I've browsed and half of them just seem to be verbal diarrhea of some obsessive and frankly disturbing people.

Name and shame website. Child abuse, paedophiles, rapists, murder, knife crime.



IT IS SAID?! My god, that pretty much sums up how terrified I am about this website. Looks like the hearsay and false allegations have already begun. My bet is a high profile lawsuit against the site before May.

Dougie, thanks for the heads up about the site. I will be wary.

As for No. 2 above, what I meant is that, and it doesn't relate to the "story" so I guess it was off topic, is that in society, as a whole, there seems to be a more liberal trend to consider self defense even in the home as somehow morally wrong or at best questionable. As I said, if someone breaks into my home, I have the legal right to take their life. In my state, they are considered to be there to do me bodily harm. Given time to make a decision, i.e. I awake in the night to noises down stairs, I will call 911 and defend our bedroom. They can have my physical posessions, I'm not trying to stop them. One man house clearing is a fool's mission and neither the loss of my nor their lives are worth physical posessions. If they come through the bedroom door, all bets are off. In the not too distant past, some states had laws that required homeowners to attempt to flee. I'm not sure if any still exist or not.

Originally Posted by uncon

I won't rely on dogs, knives, guns .... I will rely on you. I will rely on you to say what is wrong in every little aspect...I will trust in you to see that I can shop, collect my children and attend my gardenin club. If I can't trust in those who have a home and family of their own to ensure that I will look to theirs, then I am a poor mother. I have the responsibility that I share

benefits of a village

For once, in my short time here, I find myself in agreement with Greg. This is an admirable attitude to have. I would imagine that in a smallish village or community, that it would work and I sincerely hope that it does.

What is all to often missing in larger towns and cities is that attitude of a responsibility to look out for one's neighbors. I live in a city of approximately 190,000 plus the outlying county and that attitude is all to often missing. More and more the attitude that I run up against is one of non involvement. In our old neighborhood, our house was broken into twice and the alarm sounded both times. "Neighbors", whom we thought were friends or at least good aquaintances, heard the alarm siren both times and admitted it but no one called the police. No one wanted to be involved. The city police tried to organise a Neighborhood Watch and three couples showed up for the meeting.

Even in the rural areas of the county we run up against that attitude and it only makes the job harder, as if it isn't hard enough already.

In this country, one need only watch the nightly news to see evidence of it, for instance the recent case in Chicago of the young kid beaten to death with a board while some "I don't want to get involved" citizen filmed it and others watched.

It all wears on me sometimes and I guess I come off as jaded when I should be focusing on the bright spots and being thankful for them.