Originally Posted by Midas

Amnesty International condemned the move as "an attack on religious freedom". Philippe Hensmans, of Amnesty Belgium, said it had been pushed through without a proper national debate. He said: "It's also not at all clear that it is in line with the Belgian constitution and with international human rights conventions."

How ironic that Amnesty Internation should support the rights of women to be oppressed.

The supposed anxiety of politicians in both Belgium and France about the burka "threat" to female dignity and Western values has its cynical side, say critics. But it also points to a Europe-wide shift in fear of Islam away from standard, right-wing race-baiting towards a more middle-class determination to defend liberal values.

A long overdue distinction; defending your own cultural values against alien values that pose a direct threat is neither racist nor (if a certain G Brown is reading) bigotted. All citizens, regardless of colour or creed, should live by the accepted cultural values and norms of the state they reside within, if they are unable to do so, there are always plenty of Countries to go and live in.

Originally Posted by The Untalented Mr Ripley

How ironic that Amnesty Internation should support the rights of women to be oppressed.

Extremely good point, Mr Ripley! Perhaps it is because they are being manipulated.

Well done Belgium, I hope the backlash doesn't cost too many innocent lives.

The fact of the matter is that, the act of parliament text on that law is that, there should not be full face cover if there is a full face cover, the offenders will be subjected to a fine of 30 euro, it does not revoke headscarf per se rather than limiting the scope of it, the outcry and dictators of another religion practise should not mis-interprete or spread false rumour on another religion as a political thugg of war at all time rather than sorting out the economic mess and social degredations around us, than islam every time.

Well done brave little belguim! If they get any backlash attacks, intern, or deport the lot! Afterall, in 1939-1945 enemy aliens were not allowed to roam around at will. I hope Britain follows (some hopes!)

Do many women actually wear the burkha throughout europe and is it a major problem?How will they enforce it? Will the belgian police be ripping off womens clothing in public?

Funny the resident bigots applaud the destruction of freedoms, if they were targeting a group that wasn't predominantly brown, I doubt you would say the same thing. The Govt of Belgium sicken me, and you people (I struggle to use the term 'people" for some of you), I doubt you'd say the same thing if govt's were destroying the freedoms of white people or Christians. Sometimes I wonder if Pauli is correct about Totalitarianism in Europe.

Originally Posted by Kiwi 1691

Funny the resident bigots applaud the destruction of freedoms, if they were targeting a group that wasn't predominantly brown, I doubt you would say the same thing. The Govt of Belgium sicken me, and you people (I struggle to use the term 'people" for some of you), I doubt you'd say the same thing if govt's were destroying the freedoms of white people or Christians. Sometimes I wonder if Pauli is correct about Totalitarianism in Europe.

Tut, such intolerance Kiwi, you're not a bigot are you?!

The (left wing) Labour Government has ben destroying the freedoms of all people in the UK irrespective of colour and creed (albeit Christianity is being increasingly targetted for discriminatory treatment), and yes, my views remain unchanged: everyone should have the right to practice their religion and live their lives in accordance with whatever religious practice they choose with the proviso that it should not harm others or infringe on their rights or freedoms. The burka is representative of a rather unpleasant culture and has nothing to do with Islam or any other religion, it is a symbol of oppression against women and is a direct challenge to the liberal freedoms of the west, but should it be banned? In my opinion no, but I don't have a problem with it being banned.

State enforced dress codes are an affront to western liberty.

Originally Posted by JacquesMagique

State enforced dress codes are an affront to western liberty.

It'd be OK with you if some people walked around naked, then?

i just read the belgians will fine you 25 euros and in theory up to 7 days in prison although the legislators say this is highly unlikely.The bill outlaws any clothing that partially or fully covers the face in public , exempting professionals like builders or nurses, who may need to cover their faces.
Yet it is not a rapidly growing phenomenon in belgium so what is the point??
seems a badly thought out law which will only further division and hostility.Should a government be legislating on what its citizens should wear??

Originally Posted by Barry

It'd be OK with you if some people walked around naked, then?

Interesting question. In principle I would be fine with that yes, except one could invoke the argument based on child protection which doesn't really apply to the Burkha.

Originally Posted by Barry

It'd be OK with you if some people walked around naked, then?

yes barry , i could think of a few lovely ladies but i suppose we better keep it sensible.

Originally Posted by JacquesMagique

State enforced dress codes are an affront to western liberty.

Sometimes it is necessary to envoke seemingly anti-libertarian measures to ensure personal freedoms and liberties; no society is entirely free as all societies have rules that set limits on behaviour and cultural practices, and do so for the greater good. In terms of the burka, it is an item of dress designed to separate, to segregate, to limit the extent to which women are a part of society thereby undermining women's place in society; actions dictated by men and as such the burka is the very emblem of male oppression of women. I do find it rather odd why those on the left so ardently protect the rights of men to treat women in such a fashion, albeit I do appreciate the balance between personal liberties and rights to do as one wishes in a free society against limiting the right of the state to dictate how one behaves.

In terms of dress codes, in Germany and other Western / Central European nations it is illegal to wear a swastika, in the UK wearing clothing with offensive slogans constitutes an offence under Public Order legislation: the fact is that for many years European's have accepted state enforced dress codes and have done so to protect western liberties.

just think its a big fuss over nothing really.or a vehicle for the usual racists and bigots to jump on.Does anyone really care??i have never seen a muslim lady wear a burka , cant see how it can be percived as a threat.it is a non existant so called threat.there does not appear to be a problem

political point scoring of the lowest order by a government that should know better.appeal to one side as defending oppressed womens rights and appeal to the other side over those bloody damn foreigners.all the while making themselves look good at the expense of the weak and silent minority.load of utter gumph.

Good, at least somebody finally stood up for Western culture and yes, even women's rights. There is no reason to wear the Burqa, it is used only as either a political or intimidatory tool, or because the women are made to wear it.

LOL @ Belgium, a once proud liberal nation dancing to Osama's tune. Only about 200 Belgians wear it! I hope now every single Belgian Muslim woman starts wearing it, followed by daily scenes on world TV of them being dragged into court. And to think Britain went to war in 1914 to defend "Plucky little Belgium."

Originally Posted by DC

Good, at least somebody finally stood up for Western culture and yes, even women's rights. There is no reason to wear the Burqa, it is used only as either a political or intimidatory tool, or because the women are made to wear it.

What is western culture?the west has many differing cultures , and with respect i hardly think you can talk about foreign cultures when australia has imposed a foreign culture over the natives of your land.Live and let live!

Originally Posted by stewy

What is western culture?the west has many differing cultures , and with respect i hardly think you can talk about foreign cultures when australia has imposed a foreign culture over the natives of your land.Live and let live!

Western cultures across the board associate covered faces with criminals and misdeeds. The face is one of the most vital tools of communication, in fact I believe non-verbal communication, most of which comes from the face, plays a greater role in relationships than verbal. An open identity in public is valued in every Western country and a good few Eastern ones, extremist Islamic women shirk that value and disrespect that cultural value when they wear the Burqa.

And while I don't see the relevance, yes, European culture crushed and for all intents and purposes destroyed Aboriginal culture. However I don't see your point, as wasn't it the English that destroyed the Aboriginal culture? It seems you have as much right to talk about forign cultures as I do, when your finished oppressing the Irish, ruling the Indians and spreading Opium through China, not to mention that little business of murdering your way through the Pacific islands.

Originally Posted by DC

Western cultures across the board associate covered faces with criminals and misdeeds. The face is one of the most vital tools of communication, in fact I believe non-verbal communication, most of which comes from the face, plays a greater role in relationships than verbal. An open identity in public is valued in every Western country and a good few Eastern ones, extremist Islamic women shirk that value and disrespect that cultural value when they wear the Burqa.

And while I don't see the relevance, yes, European culture crushed and for all intents and purposes destroyed Aboriginal culture. However I don't see your point, as wasn't it the English that destroyed the Aboriginal culture? It seems you have as much right to talk about forign cultures as I do, when your finished oppressing the Irish, ruling the Indians and spreading Opium through China, not to mention that little business of murdering your way through the Pacific islands.

How many times have we seen brits , aussies , americans disrespect cultures at times wherever they may have been??
Its alright for your european ancestors(assuming here?!) to impose their culture by bomb and gun and conquest on the aboriginals , but people feel intimidated on extremely rare occasions they see a little muslim girl appear wearing a burkha??
How many differing cultures and languages have we seen here in the uk over the centuries??cultures compete and displace each other all the time.
Some folk have just too much time on their hands and possibly a bit jumpy if they are frightened of some little girl covered in a bit of cloth.
just think there are more important issues in the world today.

Originally Posted by stewy

How many times have we seen brits , aussies , americans disrespect cultures at times wherever they may have been??

Quite a lot, but it's just ignorant louts which appear in every culture. There is nothing religious or institutionalised about it, in contrast to the wearing of the Burqa.

Its alright for your european ancestors(assuming here?!) to impose their culture by bomb and gun and conquest on the aboriginals , but people feel intimidated on extremely rare occasions they see a little muslim girl appear wearing a burkha??

Well my ancestors did not, but it still not alright for them to have done that. The crushing or aboriginal culture was not a good thing in most regards, but changes nothing in regards to women wearing the Burqa and its consequences.

How many differing cultures and languages have we seen here in the uk over the centuries??cultures compete and displace each other all the time.
Some folk have just too much time on their hands and possibly a bit jumpy if they are frightened of some little girl covered in a bit of cloth.
just think there are more important issues in the world today.

I still see no reason to not defend our culture today. And it isn't that they're frightened, it's that the Burqa disrespects the host culture and its people. In many Islamic countries, and indeed in Western ones, women are asked to wear head coverings in Mosques. In the same way that we respect their cultures to an extent, they should respect ours, especially since ours is the host culture.

Originally Posted by stewy

people feel intimidated on extremely rare occasions they see a little muslim girl appear wearing a burkha??

Pathetic isn't it? Their culture is so weak, so puny, so shivering-in-its-boots, that a Muslim girl with a veil sends them bonkers. All Muslim women should now wear the veil and, ideally, Christian and atheist women wear it too, in solidarity.

As I have written previously, and without subsequent questioning or argument by others, the burka is a form of oppression by men; it segregates women, removes them from engaging and playing a full role and part in society and is a very visible representation of repression and second-class status in the name of religion, despite having no religious meaning or origin. So, my question to Stewy and Balthazar is why are you so keen on their particular form of oppression?

Originally Posted by Balthazar

Pathetic isn't it? Their culture is so weak, so puny, so shivering-in-its-boots, that a Muslim girl with a veil sends them bonkers. All Muslim women should now wear the veil and, ideally, Christian and atheist women wear it too, in solidarity.

Maybe Muslim women shouldn't wear the veil just as their counterparts do not, just for, you know, solidarity.

Originally Posted by DC

Quite a lot, but it's just ignorant louts which appear in every culture. There is nothing religious or institutionalised about it, in contrast to the wearing of the Burqa.


Well my ancestors did not, but it still not alright for them to have done that. The crushing or aboriginal culture was not a good thing in most regards, but changes nothing in regards to women wearing the Burqa and its consequences.


I still see no reason to not defend our culture today. And it isn't that they're frightened, it's that the Burqa disrespects the host culture and its people. In many Islamic countries, and indeed in Western ones, women are asked to wear head coverings in Mosques. In the same way that we respect their cultures to an extent, they should respect ours, especially since ours is the host culture.

It is a complete non issue , and i cannot see any disrespect to our "culture"!If politicians need to legislate on a non issue like this , they are wasting our time and money.
Bet there are plenty who are happy to take a pound or dollar from these frightening veiled menaces .morals soon go out the window when money is involved?!
Defend our culture? Its not under attack , and if it is too weak that it is frightened from a trivial pathetic issue like this, it doesnt deserve to survive anyway.

Originally Posted by The Untalented Mr Ripley

As I have written previously, and without subsequent questioning or argument by others, the burka is a form of oppression by men; it segregates women, removes them from engaging and playing a full role and part in society and is a very visible representation of repression and second-class status in the name of religion, despite having no religious meaning or origin. So, my question to Stewy and Balthazar is why are you so keen on their particular form of oppression?

I have never met or seen anyone wearing the burkha except on t.v. The few i have seen wear it on t.v appear to want to , seems to be their choice.Of course no one wants to support any kind of repression, but there just does not appear to be a problem here.No muslim ladies are complaining , and very few appear to be wearing the burkha anyway.Where is the issue?Its nothing more than mischief making , in my view.
Surely we want our politicians dealing with the big global issues , not this tripe.

Originally Posted by stewy

It is a complete non issue , and i cannot see any disrespect to our "culture"!If politicians need to legislate on a non issue like this , they are wasting our time and money.
Bet there are plenty who are happy to take a pound or dollar from these frightening veiled menaces .morals soon go out the window when money is involved?!
Defend our culture? Its not under attack , and if it is too weak that it is frightened from a trivial pathetic issue like this, it doesnt deserve to survive anyway.

The Burqa is a major barrier in communication, a tool for the oppression of women, and yes, it offends traditional cultural values of identity. I see no reason that it should be allowed in a Western society that seeks to uphold its own cultural values. Today it's the Burqa, tomorrow it may be female circumcision.

Originally Posted by DC

The Burqa is a major barrier in communication, a tool for the oppression of women, and yes, it offends traditional cultural values of identity. I see no reason that it should be allowed in a Western society that seeks to uphold its own cultural values. Today it's the Burqa, tomorrow it may be female circumcision.

sorry , that is just so weak.
Banning citizens clothing is the slippery slope, sad that something trivial is an offence.counter productive law that may end up causing problems , maybe thats the main aim though.sad

Originally Posted by stewy

sorry , that is just so weak.
Banning citizens clothing is the slippery slope, sad that something trivial is an offence.counter productive law that may end up causing problems , maybe thats the main aim though.sad

Why? We ban nudity in public because it offends us culturally. Greece has already banned face coverings in protests. And I don't see how this law can do any harm. Society places certain cultural expectations on its members. Those who wish to be part of a society must adhere to the cultural expectations of that society. Western societies have very few expectations, however public identity is one of them, and some Muslim women choose to shirk these expectations, causing offence.

I think DC should start dressing in traditional aboriginal attire.

Originally Posted by stewy

I have never met or seen anyone wearing the burkha except on t.v. The few i have seen wear it on t.v appear to want to , seems to be their choice.Of course no one wants to support any kind of repression, but there just does not appear to be a problem here.No muslim ladies are complaining , and very few appear to be wearing the burkha anyway.Where is the issue?Its nothing more than mischief making , in my view.
Surely we want our politicians dealing with the big global issues , not this tripe.

I've seen a fair few in London and Birmingham and to be honest it does make me very uncomfortable that we tolerate such obvious oppression of women in this country, it has been less than 100 years since women's sufferage and property rights, rights that were hard fought for and hard won, I have no desire to see women's rights take a backward step. As for Muslim ladies not complaining, perhaps thats because some daren't, whilst others subscribe to a fundamentalist version of Islam that holds women to be second-class citizens.

As for being a non-issue, culture, cultural practices and identities are big issues as they define who we are, our values and the nature of the society we live in; how we all live is perhaps the biggest issue we currently face, other than getting rid of Gordon Brown that is.

Originally Posted by Barry

It'd be OK with you if some people walked around naked, then?

If people wish to walk around naked, then they should be allowed to do so.

Originally Posted by DC

Why? We ban nudity in public because it offends us culturally. Greece has already banned face coverings in protests. And I don't see how this law can do any harm. Society places certain cultural expectations on its members. Those who wish to be part of a society must adhere to the cultural expectations of that society. Western societies have very few expectations, however public identity is one of them, and some Muslim women choose to shirk these expectations, causing offence.

we live in societies that have many differing cultures in them.That is the world of today , we want people coming to and from different countries for various financial reasons , exploitation among them , but are not happy when they bring their own languages and cultures with them?!cant have it both ways.These are living people ,not robots whose sole purpose is to work in menial jobs , slave labour then be cast aside when we no longer want them.What next , banning the curry cause we are not eating bangers and mash?
banning something is a sure way of pissing people off , especially when there appears to be an injustice,real or imagined.especially when there is no problem to begin with.
you seem to be fighting on behalf of a perceived western culture , you dont fight for a culture, you create one.If aussie girls decided to create a new culture of wearing a face veil , would that bother you??
Nothing personal against you , this law is nothing more than a vehicle for bigots to excercise there discrimination against little muslim girls , and i want no part of it here in the uk.

Originally Posted by The Untalented Mr Ripley

I've seen a fair few in London and Birmingham and to be honest it does make me very uncomfortable that we tolerate such obvious oppression of women in this country, it has been less than 100 years since women's sufferage and property rights, rights that were hard fought for and hard won, I have no desire to see women's rights take a backward step. As for Muslim ladies not complaining, perhaps thats because some daren't, whilst others subscribe to a fundamentalist version of Islam that holds women to be second-class citizens.

As for being a non-issue, culture, cultural practices and identities are big issues as they define who we are, our values and the nature of the society we live in; how we all live is perhaps the biggest issue we currently face, other than getting rid of Gordon Brown that is.

banning aspects of culture does not work , look at british history to see that , so why should it be any different with the burkha?If left alone , it will be assimilated into our society just as the curry is now our national dish.no one seems to be complaining to be honest??

Originally Posted by stewy

banning aspects of culture does not work , look at british history to see that , so why should it be any different with the burkha?If left alone , it will be assimilated into our society just as the curry is now our national dish.no one seems to be complaining to be honest??

Historically, we have long managed to successfully ban numerous cultural practices, either through legislation or social pressure and attitude (ending child labour, slavery, etc). The burka is a particularly unpleasant symbol of a particularly unpleasant culture that has no right to exist in Europe given that is contrary to our principles of equality and women's rights.

Originally Posted by Kiwi 1691

Funny the resident bigots applaud the destruction of freedoms, if they were targeting a group that wasn't predominantly brown, I doubt you would say the same thing. The Govt of Belgium sicken me, and you people (I struggle to use the term 'people" for some of you), I doubt you'd say the same thing if govt's were destroying the freedoms of white people or Christians. Sometimes I wonder if Pauli is correct about Totalitarianism in Europe.

Is like a crime of madness when you dont kinda call the same religion with them, they throw abuses they turn that into something else, those people fighting for religion convert o revert or religion war are they of their senses at all ?

Originally Posted by JacquesMagique

I think DC should start dressing in traditional aboriginal attire.

Except we don't make Muslim women get rid of their head scarves entirely, do we? We don't make people dress like Westerners. Banning the Burqa is not about making Muslim women look like Western women. And your point is moot as Australia is not an Aboriginal country.

Originally Posted by The Untalented Mr Ripley

Historically, we have long managed to successfully ban numerous cultural practices, either through legislation or social pressure and attitude (ending child labour, slavery, etc). The burka is a particularly unpleasant symbol of a particularly unpleasant culture that has no right to exist in Europe given that is contrary to our principles of equality and women's rights.

But not always for the right reasons.
culture is not static , it is constantly changing and evolving , especially from new or outside ideas and sources.our culture and language is nothing like the culture and language of the british 1000 years ago.perhaps the burkha is destined to become part of british culture , if not i am sure the practice of wearing it will die out naturally.
we are hardly out morris dancing at the weekend , but that is supposed to be part of english culture. Times change.
i see where you are coming from about a symbol of oppression but it just does not seem to be a problem.

Originally Posted by The Untalented Mr Ripley

So, my question to Stewy and Balthazar is why are you so keen on their particular form of oppression?

Because I know something about the history of Muslim women and the veil. They tend to cover up when Islam's under attack from people like you.

Originally Posted by stewy

we live in societies that have many differing cultures in them.That is the world of today , we want people coming to and from different countries for various financial reasons , exploitation among them , but are not happy when they bring their own languages and cultures with them?!cant have it both ways.These are living people ,not robots whose sole purpose is to work in menial jobs , slave labour then be cast aside when we no longer want them.What next , banning the curry cause we are not eating bangers and mash?

No, because curry doesn't offend people or breach any of our cultural mores. This isn't about making Muslims like Westerners, it's about protecting Western values. Yes, we tolerate a wide and wonderful variety of cultures, however there are limits to how much we tolerate, and it is not the immigrants who define what is tolerable and what is not, it's the host people who do that. Belgians, the French and probably most people in the UK see the Burqa as breaking that limit of toleration. Because Muslim women have failed to respect that limit, it needs to enforced.

banning something is a sure way of pissing people off , especially when there appears to be an injustice,real or imagined.especially when there is no problem to begin with.

There is a problem, clearly, otherwise no steps would be taken. Unless you're accusing the vast majority of the Belgian Parliament and people of all being racists, then clearly there is a problem that they see. As I have already explained, the Burqa is a tool of oppression for women, it impedes communication, and offends traditional values of European society. There are three problems created by the Burka right there.

you seem to be fighting on behalf of a perceived western culture , you dont fight for a culture, you create one.If aussie girls decided to create a new culture of wearing a face veil , would that bother you??

Well it would depend why they were wearing a veil. If it was because their sexist, overbearing husbands made them, then yes I would have a problem. If they wanted to because for some reason it became fashionable, then no, wouldn't have problem. If they however wanted to obscure their identities with such a veil, as the Burqa does, then, fashionable or not, it would be a problem because public identity is a value of Western society.

Nothing personal against you , this law is nothing more than a vehicle for bigots to excercise there discrimination against little muslim girls , and i want no part of it here in the uk.

I have illustrated three points of why the Burqa should be banned, none of which are racially bias. I would be just as much against Christians adopting a full face covering as I would the Burqa. Also this hardly a vehicle for racial bigotry, unless you do want to go ahead and call the majority of Belgians racists.

Originally Posted by Balthazar

Because I know something about the history of Muslim women and the veil. They tend to cover up when Islam's under attack from people like you.

You see that's really strange because the veil has nothing to do with Islam.

Originally Posted by DC

You see that's really strange because the veil has nothing to do with Islam.

Wrong! Do you mean the veil's not mentioned directly in the Koran? If so, you're right. But what do you mean?

Originally Posted by DC

Except we don't make Muslim women get rid of their head scarves entirely, do we? We don't make people dress like Westerners. Banning the Burqa is not about making Muslim women look like Western women.

That's exactly what it's about for a lot of people. Cultural deviance.

Obviously the argument about the oppression of women is another way to approach it, and is much more complex.
However I would go back to what I said about breast implants, and how we could see other similar cultural practices in 'western culture' which are 'oppressing women' in the same manner. Unless you can actually prove that men actually 'force' muslim women to wear the burka then it's no more 'oppressive' than the miniskirt, the low neckline or high heels.

Originally Posted by DC

No, because curry doesn't offend people or breach any of our cultural mores. This isn't about making Muslims like Westerners, it's about protecting Western values. Yes, we tolerate a wide and wonderful variety of cultures, however there are limits to how much we tolerate, and it is not the immigrants who define what is tolerable and what is not, it's the host people who do that. Belgians, the French and probably most people in the UK see the Burqa as breaking that limit of toleration. Because Muslim women have failed to respect that limit, it needs to enforced.


There is a problem, clearly, otherwise no steps would be taken. Unless you're accusing the vast majority of the Belgian Parliament and people of all being racists, then clearly there is a problem that they see. As I have already explained, the Burqa is a tool of oppression for women, it impedes communication, and offends traditional values of European society. There are three problems created by the Burka right there.


Well it would depend why they were wearing a veil. If it was because their sexist, overbearing husbands made them, then yes I would have a problem. If they wanted to because for some reason it became fashionable, then no, wouldn't have problem. If they however wanted to obscure their identities with such a veil, as the Burqa does, then, fashionable or not, it would be a problem because public identity is a value of Western society.


I have illustrated three points of why the Burqa should be banned, none of which are racially bias. I would be just as much against Christians adopting a full face covering as I would the Burqa. Also this hardly a vehicle for racial bigotry, unless you do want to go ahead and call the majority of Belgians racists.

dont know the figure for belgium , but in france, which has the largest muslim population, of 65 million people the gov estimates 1900 wear a veil of some sort.
hardly a mass epidemic.
nothing more than hysteria over nothing in my honest opinion.

I agree to an extent with both sides. On the one hand, restricting dress for no practical reason is fascist. Think 1984. Instead of outlawing the burqa in public, why not:

1) Outlaw men imposing dress on women
2) Outlaw the burqa where facial contact is needed, e.g., at airports, schools and hospitals.

It is incredibly condescending to say 'oh poor Muslim women they don't know what's best for them. We had better fine them for letting their evil husbands force them to wear a burqa.' You are all aware, aren't you, that the majority of women do not wear the burqa because of fear of their men, but because they actually believe it is necessary? They have been told by their society that they must wear it. Going back to the naked example from earlier in the post, society tells women that they ought to wear clothes full stop in order to cover their decency. Burqa wearers simply go one step further and say that they must wear a full veil to cover their decency. Can someone explain to me, without using the preposterous phrase 'Western values', how the two situations are different. We are all Western and our values are quite patently different from each others'.

Rip her veil off!

Originally Posted by Balthazar

Wrong! Do you mean the veil's not mentioned directly in the Koran? If so, you're right. But what do you mean?

It predates Islam, and was initially nothing to do with religion.

Originally Posted by DougieG

I agree to an extent with both sides. On the one hand, restricting dress for no practical reason is fascist. Think 1984. Instead of outlawing the burqa in public, why not:

1) Outlaw men imposing dress on women
2) Outlaw the burqa where facial contact is needed, e.g., at airports, schools and hospitals.

It is incredibly condescending to say 'oh poor Muslim women they don't know what's best for them. We had better fine them for letting their evil husbands force them to wear a burqa.' You are all aware, aren't you, that the majority of women do not wear the burqa because of fear of their men, but because they actually believe it is necessary? They have been told by their society that they must wear it. Going back to the naked example from earlier in the post, society tells women that they ought to wear clothes full stop in order to cover their decency. Burqa wearers simply go one step further and say that they must wear a full veil to cover their decency. Can someone explain to me, without using the preposterous phrase 'Western values', how the two situations are different. We are all Western and our values are quite patently different from each others'.

thats the point dougie , because my neighbour, who was born here , has brown skin and differing cultural practices and religion, he is not perceived as british or western.
Racists with a feather tickling an imagined problem that does not exist and tryng to use every excuse they can think of to justify discrimination.
I respect and agree with the right of women to wear the burkha if they so wish.