It's still looking good for the warmongers:
May 15th looks like a day of action and probably death:
Egyptians march on Israeli embassy - Israel News, Ynetnews

In Israel, the Shadow of a New Gaza War - Yahoo! News

More ingredients added:
I've just read a report of 49 killed today in Syria, which is awful.

Can we expect the UN to react, create a no fly zone and assist the rebels?
Reports also say that Iranian Republican Guard are involved in propping up Assad.

The different world response according to each country's assets is so cynical.
Is anyone convinced the recipe for war is looking perfect ?

Well, I'm finding this thread very interesting.

Iran, having gained ground manipulating the Muslim brotherhood in Egypt have now brokered a marriage made in hell, between Hamas and Fatah. This automatically disqualifies the Palestinians on the Quartet rule that they must renounce violence and cease terrorism. Hamas will never do that.
Egypt, Hamas, Fatah and Hezbollah in Lebanon are now co-ordinating a third intifada attack on Israel for 15th May.
In the past, when Israel has been threatened in this way, they have not waited for the attackers, they have used a pre-emptive strike.
What Iran are coordinating is an act of war and a casus belli for action.
Hamas, Fatah Coordinate May 15 Assault on Israel - Defense/Middle East - Israel News - Israel National News

Personally I'm hoping Syria shits itself. As much as I know that an unstable Syria will be bad for Israel I just hate the bastards too much to see them in power. As for the Palestinians, I think Fatah realised that it would have no hope succeeding in declaring statehood without Hamas and Gaza. My concern is exactly how their statehood is going to operate. Gaza is the only place that's actually capable of being a state, and that's Hamas territory. Surely Fatah wouldn't be stupid enough to declare statehood in the West Bank and start rolling its security forces up into Jewish settlements. Dead Jewish children on the front cover of Haaretz will not improve the peace process.

How about a recipe for chocolate cake instead, much nicer. Yummy.

Originally Posted by Barry

The current "democracy uprisings" in various Arabic countries is a major cause of instability, which may have disastrous consequences.
In Libya this has now turned into civil war with the West having decided to back the "good guys". At least one good side effect of this may be that the killer of WPC Yvonne Fletcher may be brought to justice.
Obama says it is not war, but kinetic military action. This is what war is called when it is started by a Nobel peace Prize winner.
Syria is in denial about any riots, which are coming to a head in places like Hama, where Syria previously butchered about 30,000 people in an uprising.
Lebanon has serious political troubles caused by the Hezbollah.
Jordan are struggling to contain disturbances in Amman.
Egypt appear to be backing the Hamas organisation and rocket and mortar attacks are on the increase. Whilst Obama attacks Libya, he expects Netanyahu to take no action against the warring Islamists in Gaza.

There is one thing that could deflect away from all the so called "democracy" protests, and that may involve the Arabic countries all turning against their common enemy.

Obama recently explained that the Egypt and other uprisings would be good for Israel.
Israel will benefit from Egypt revolution, Obama says | Egyptian Uprising
But we all know that Obama is a liar and could care less about what happens to Israel. He just wants to give away the land they won in a just war to appease the Islamists.

The Islamists are calling for a third intifada on Facebook
Willkommen bei Facebook - anmelden, registrieren oder mehr erfahren

It's a cracking good recipe for war.

Originally Posted by janice

How about a recipe for chocolate cake instead, much nicer. Yummy.

I have an allergy to too much chocolate, unfortunately, but I do still love a bit of chocolate cake. It might get in short supply when the war starts, so bake a few and put them in the freezer. That's of course assuming we'll have electricity of course...

You'd rather not think about the nasty facts of what is happening in the world then?

Originally Posted by DC

Dead Jewish children on the front cover of Haaretz will not improve the peace process.

Neither will dead Palestinian children, of which there are a great deal more.

Originally Posted by Barry

I have an allergy to too much chocolate, unfortunately, but I do still love a bit of chocolate cake. It might get in short supply when the war starts, so bake a few and put them in the freezer. That's of course assuming we'll have electricity of course...

You'd rather not think about the nasty facts of what is happening in the world then?

Chocolate cake is a luxury that nearly no Palestinian children have ever known thanks to the Israelis. Maybe baking a few and sending them to Gaza might be more Christian?

Originally Posted by Midas

Neither will dead Palestinian children, of which there are a great deal more.

Frankly at this point, I think dead Jewish children would do far more to destabilise the peace protest.

It may seem unfair, but all the cards are in Israel's corner (I may have mixed metaphors), all the Palestinians need to do to get a state is not kill or try to kill Israelis, and give up on the right of return, and be patient, and perhaps a little flexible when it comes to the settlements. Pissing off Israel with Likud in power will do them no good, they just need to wait for Kadima to inevitably take power, and then they might get some traction on those settlements.

Originally Posted by DC

Frankly at this point, I think dead Jewish children would do far more to destabilise the peace protest.

It may seem unfair, but all the cards are in Israel's corner (I may have mixed metaphors), all the Palestinians need to do to get a state is not kill or try to kill Israelis,

They have a long way to go to catch up with Israel's record.

and give up on the right of return,

OH you mean the one like Israel has?

and be patient,

Like Israel is when planning Castlead?

and perhaps a little flexible when it comes to the settlements.

Why in god's name should they be? It is THEIR land for heaven's sake!! Eastern Jerusalme is THEIRS in international law!!

Why should Palestine be any different to Israel in its structure?
Do you know the meaning of the word "hypocrite"?

Originally Posted by Lois Lane

They have a long way to go to catch up with Israel's record.

Are we keeping score here? Because I think the Palestinians and their Arab allies are winning on the 'attempts to invade' scoreboard.

OH you mean the one like Israel has?

No, the Palestinian right of return allows Palestinian in refugee camps to return to land either they or their ancestors fled in 1948, land which is now Israel.

Like Israel is when planning Castlead?

The election of a genocidal Government, the kidnapping and killing of soldiers as well as rocket fire targeting civilians sounds like a fairly good reason to invade.

Why in god's name should they be? It is THEIR land for heaven's sake!! Eastern Jerusalme is THEIRS in international law!!

Call me old fashioned but I think when you invade and arguably try to murder an entire country, you're giving up any real claim to your land. I see it as absurd that the Arabs and Palestinians should be allowed to try and destroy Israel, and then when they fail, just kindly ask for their land back.

Why should Palestine be any different to Israel in its structure?

Because of political reality, which is nobody in their right mind would trust Hamas with an army, considering what it tries to do on an almost weekly basis. I think in the long term future Palestine will eventually be allowed to normalise into a state just like Israel, assuming no future attempts of genocide.

From my understanding of recent history, our country is responsible for most of the conflicts that happen today - Iraq, Kuwait, Israel, Pakistan etc. It would be good at some point if our government showed some humility, accepted that the great majority of our military interventions have bad long term consequences and just STOP!!!

Originally Posted by Barry

You'd rather not think about the nasty facts of what is happening in the world then?

Originally Posted by DC

Are we keeping score here? Because I think the Palestinians and their Arab allies are winning on the 'attempts to invade' scoreboard.

You HAVE to be kidding, after the naqba?? The settlements in Plaestine? In Jeruslaem? Just WHEN has Palestine tried to inved Israel???? Are you completely blind to honesty in your rush to defend Israel no matter what? You see this is what really gets to me, the lies and twistings and insinuations and sheer rubbish Israeli politicians feed their people. Do they think the rest of the world is stupid?

No, the Palestinian right of return allows Palestinian in refugee camps to return to land either they or their ancestors fled in 1948, land which is now Israel.

It wasn't at the time of the declaration of independence.

The election of a genocidal Government, the kidnapping and killing of soldiers as well as rocket fire targeting civilians sounds like a fairly good reason to invade.

See here we have it again. A complete blindness to what Israel hasa done. They have assasinated Palestinian politicians, improsoned others elected by democracy, imprisoned 7000 (at this time) Palestinians, some of whom they have kidnapped, have over the years improsooned about 20% of the entire population of Palestine, including women and children with no trial. Over the years rockets haqve killed fewer than 50 people. How many has Israel killed? You know the more you go on the more ridiculous your arguments are. You don't seriously think you can pull the wool over the rest of us, do you??
It's over, mate. All that propaganda, refusal to see the barbarity of Israel's foreign policies, their determination to starve Palestine out of existence. Over.

Call me old fashioned but I think when you invade and arguably try to murder an entire country, you're giving up any real claim to your land.

May I quote you on that with respect to Israel's trying to starve Palestine into submission? Maybe Israel should pack up and move to Nevada.

I see it as absurd that the Arabs and Palestinians should be allowed to try and destroy Israel, and then when they fail, just kindly ask for their land back.

Oh the Israel that one day declared its independence but forgot to define her borders? Good move that, plus using guilt to ensure that everyone bowed to their wishes. More wool. I think I should use that example and declare my town my own since my family comes from here. Israel was one of the biggest land thefts in history

Because of political reality, which is nobody in their right mind would trust Hamas with an army, considering what it tries to do on an almost weekly basis. I think in the long term future Palestine will eventually be allowed to normalise into a state just like Israel, assuming no future attempts of genocide.

OH like the genocide perpetrated during Castlead? and the other massacres I posted? THAT genocide?

Originally Posted by Lois Lane

Chocolate cake is a luxury that nearly no Palestinian children have ever known thanks to the Israelis.

Clearly you listen to Pallywood lies and propaganda and take it all in, because you are repeating utter lies.

Originally Posted by Lois Lane

Maybe baking a few and sending them to Gaza might be more Christian?

I'll ignore that, as they have plenty of chocolates and sweets - they celebrate and throw them around when they have a victory in battle, such as an anti tank missile killing a Jewish kid on a yellow school bus.

Originally Posted by Barry

Clearly you listen to Pallywood lies and propaganda and take it all in, because you are repeating utter lies.

I'll ignore that, as they have plenty of chocolates and sweets - they celebrate and throw them around when they have a victory in battle, such as an anti tank missile killing a Jewish kid on a yellow school bus.

an anti-tank missile made of chocolate? The Israelis are frightened of that? What wussies!!

Twerps

:The Indypendent » This Chocolate Ain’t Sweet: As Flotilla Steams Towards Gaza, Banner Drop Demands End to Gaza Blockade

However I am glad to see that SOME Israelis have a sense of humour:

http://www.designlaunches.com/lifest...colate_box.php

Originally Posted by Lois Lane

Chocolate cake is a luxury that nearly no Palestinian children have ever known thanks to the Israelis. Maybe baking a few and sending them to Gaza might be more Christian?

Barry`s Christian charity ceases when it comes to the oppressed victims of his beloved Israel, a nation which, however monstrously it behaves, can do no wrong in his eyes. Ironic how a state founded by the survivors of fascist oppression, should behave in such an oppressively fascistic manner now. Barry has become an apologist for great evil and oppression.

Originally Posted by srb7677

Barry`s Christian charity ceases when it comes to the oppressed victims of his beloved Israel, a nation which, however monstrously it behaves, can do no wrong in his eyes.

You have no grounds or right to say that.

Ironic how a state founded by the survivors of fascist oppression, should behave in such an oppressively fascistic manner now. Barry has become an apologist for great evil and oppression.

You obviously know nothing about Israel.

Now why not get back on topic, which is about the changes happening in the Middle east being a recipe for war.
There's a couple of bash Israel threads on the go at the moment, go and play your games over in those.

Originally Posted by Lois Lane

an anti-tank missile made of chocolate? The Israelis are frightened of that? What wussies!!

Twerps

:The Indypendent » This Chocolate Ain’t Sweet: As Flotilla Steams Towards Gaza, Banner Drop Demands End to Gaza Blockade

However I am glad to see that SOME Israelis have a sense of humour:

The Qassam Rocket from Gaza is a chocolate box | Designlaunches

This is just trolling a serious topic. It's not in the jokes section.

Originally Posted by Barry

This is just trolling a serious topic. It's not in the jokes section.

For gods sake lighten up Barry. You aren't facing your maker yet. I think you may be grateful for that.
And I did make a serious point. Israel rejected chocolate to Gaza until VERY recently.

DEBKAfile, Political Analysis, Espionage, Terrorism, Security
The "Arab Spring" is a misnomer on many counts. It started in winter for a starter. It has now reached summer and Libya is not yet sorted out. NATO has been shown to be weak in the face of a very beatable target.
Now the Syrian situation is a big turning point, as Syria has Iranian backing, has virtual control of Lebanon through the newly re-organised government in Beirut. Turkey has issued a 1 week ultimatum to Syrian leader Assad, who just keeps talking about the political opposition as "terrorists" and "microbes"

The sooner the rogue state of Israel is forcably dismantled in it's people dispersed from the land they are occupying the better.
The whole concept of a state being founded on the basis of a mythical messianic promise is a monstrous idea, a failed experiment, one of the cruelest impositions on an indiginous people since English and Irish immagrants first started the genocide of the American Indian population.
Prior to the 20th century the vast majority of Jews that occupied that part of Palestine hadn't set foot in the middle east for over 40 generations.
You would think that they might have sussed something was up when they figured out that God has promissed them the only strip of desert in the middle east with no oil.
Pack them off to Arizona I reckon. They have more than enough sympathisers in the US, and Arizona is a fairly arid place, they'd love it there.

Originally Posted by DaveUK

The sooner the rogue state of Israel is forcably dismantled in it's people dispersed from the land they are occupying the better.
The whole concept of a state being founded on the basis of a mythical messianic promise is a monstrous idea, a failed experiment, one of the cruelest impositions on an indiginous people since English and Irish immagrants first started the genocide of the American Indian population.
Prior to the 20th century the vast majority of Jews that occupied that part of Palestine hadn't set foot in the middle east for over 40 generations.
You would think that they might have sussed something was up when they figured out that God has promissed them the only strip of desert in the middle east with no oil.
Pack them off to Arizona I reckon. They have more than enough sympathisers in the US, and Arizona is a fairly arid place, they'd love it there.

I'm quite surprised that you have decided to repeat this hateful rant
Of course, it will be very pleasing for people like yourself, when Israel come under attack, yet again, after the West have helped to stir up the "pro-democracy" revolutions destabilizing the Middle East.
When Israel defend themselves, your pleasure will turn sour, I feel sure.

Originally Posted by Barry

I'm quite surprised that you have decided to repeat this hateful rant
Of course, it will be very pleasing for people like yourself, when Israel come under attack, yet again, after the West have helped to stir up the "pro-democracy" revolutions destabilizing the Middle East.
When Israel defend themselves, your pleasure will turn sour, I feel sure.

Why? Didn't you think I meant it the first time around? I personally couldn't care less where Jews live, or any other religious group for that matter. But I certainly do not think that they should have or deserve their own state based on some bronze aged myth, especially at the expense of another indiginous population.
The hypocrasy of you pro Israeli zionists is palpable when discussing this issue. You're quite happy with the forced displasement and dispersal of indiginous Palestinian Arabs and Christians to make room for European Zionist Jews, but when the revearsal of that process is suggested you find it abhorrent. Move them to Arizona I say, and make them dig for their own water and grow their own food in the desert dust like they've done to the Palestinians over the last century.

And the underlying tone of your posts in this thread I find quite sinister, I don't know if anyone else has picked up on it ot not. What you are suggesting is that Arabs living under brutal dictatorships all over the middle east have no right to fight for a better way of life, because it might make things uncomfortable for Israel?? F*** Israel. Every Arab has a right to fight for a better way of life and to elect the government they want, and no westerner has the right to stop them, least of all the fascists that occupy Palestine and Lebonon.

In 1968 over ten million people cued outside Jewish state offices, in almost every non Arab country, to go to Israel's aid, the next time it will be 40 million. Israel is never lacking in the admiration or support, of those who have learned to respect and admire the courage and restraint it constantly reveals, to a World mired in deceit.

I'll ignore the ignorant hatred.

Speaking at the President's Conference in Jerusalem, Blair noted that in the future he sees Israel becoming a role model for the other states in the region.

Blair: We mustn't let Iran develop nuclear program - Israel News, Ynetnews
I suppose Gaza will also be a role model one day.

At least some of you are beginning to see the point of this thread, that the recipe for war is pretty much perfect at the moment.
This guy, Alex Jones, seems to agree, but seems to link it into the false man of peace's and others conspiracies.

Lots of people are being killed by "keeping the peace" at this juncture in world history.

Originally Posted by DaveUK

Why? Didn't you think I meant it the first time around? I personally couldn't care less where Jews live, or any other religious group for that matter. But I certainly do not think that they should have or deserve their own state based on some bronze aged myth, especially at the expense of another indiginous population.
The hypocrasy of you pro Israeli zionists is palpable when discussing this issue. You're quite happy with the forced displasement and dispersal of indiginous Palestinian Arabs and Christians to make room for European Zionist Jews, but when the revearsal of that process is suggested you find it abhorrent. Move them to Arizona I say, and make them dig for their own water and grow their own food in the desert dust like they've done to the Palestinians over the last century.

And the underlying tone of your posts in this thread I find quite sinister, I don't know if anyone else has picked up on it ot not. What you are suggesting is that Arabs living under brutal dictatorships all over the middle east have no right to fight for a better way of life, because it might make things uncomfortable for Israel?? F*** Israel. Every Arab has a right to fight for a better way of life and to elect the government they want, and no westerner has the right to stop them, least of all the fascists that occupy Palestine and Lebonon.

They did dig Dave, that's why every scumbag claims he owns Land in Palestine, The place would have to be larger than the Planet if we were to believe them..............know your ARAB before you preach, most are content to have Israel at their border, rather than the bloody Muslim brotherhood killers.

Originally Posted by Barry

DEBKAfile, Political Analysis, Espionage, Terrorism, Security
The "Arab Spring" is a misnomer on many counts. It started in winter for a starter. It has now reached summer and Libya is not yet sorted out. NATO has been shown to be weak in the face of a very beatable target.
Now the Syrian situation is a big turning point, as Syria has Iranian backing, has virtual control of Lebanon through the newly re-organised government in Beirut. Turkey has issued a 1 week ultimatum to Syrian leader Assad, who just keeps talking about the political opposition as "terrorists" and "microbes"

He goes, so what, there only swapping one Murderous swine for another murderous swine.....bit like Droopy Cameron and Thickhead Brown.............politics never alters anything, for the better.

Originally Posted by DaveUK

The sooner the rogue state of Israel is forcably dismantled in it's people dispersed from the land they are occupying the better.

Please detail how you would do this. Firstly, there is no single standing military capable of doing this (let alone political will). Secondly where would you send 7 million people who A: Israel is their home, B: Are both armed, militarily trained and extremely socially unified, and C: English is a second language?

The whole concept of a state being founded on the basis of a mythical messianic promise is a monstrous idea,

Israel was not founded on a mythical messianic promise. Religion has little if anything to do with Zionism as I have proved before.

a failed experiment, one of the cruelest impositions on an indiginous people since English and Irish immagrants first started the genocide of the American Indian population.

A slight exaggeration considering Jewish immigration improved the lives of the SMALL Arab population until those Arabs started killing Jews.

Prior to the 20th century the vast majority of Jews that occupied that part of Palestine hadn't set foot in the middle east for over 40 generations.

And prior to the late 19th century the vast majority of 'Palestinians' hadn't set foot in Palestine.

Pack them off to Arizona I reckon. They have more than enough sympathisers in the US, and Arizona is a fairly arid place, they'd love it there.

Yeah! More war! More violence! More strain on our economies! More disgruntled refugees! **** Middle East Peace!

Originally Posted by DC

Please detail how you would do this. Firstly, there is no single standing military capable of doing this (let alone political will). Secondly where would you send 7 million people who A: Israel is their home, B: Are both armed, militarily trained and extremely socially unified, and C: English is a second language?
Israel was not founded on a mythical messianic promise. Religion has little if anything to do with Zionism as I have proved before.

A slight exaggeration considering Jewish immigration improved the lives of the SMALL Arab population until those Arabs started killing Jews.
And prior to the late 19th century the vast majority of 'Palestinians' hadn't set foot in Palestine.

Yeah! More war! More violence! More strain on our economies! More disgruntled refugees! **** Middle East Peace!

It would at the very least stimulate the US economy back into a surplus...they are certainly in demand for their abilities.... EVERYWHERE.

Originally Posted by DC

Please detail how you would do this. Firstly, there is no single standing military capable of doing this (let alone political will). Secondly where would you send 7 million people who A: Israel is their home, B: Are both armed, militarily trained and extremely socially unified, and C: English is a second language?
Israel was not founded on a mythical messianic promise. Religion has little if anything to do with Zionism as I have proved before.

A slight exaggeration considering Jewish immigration improved the lives of the SMALL Arab population until those Arabs started killing Jews.
And prior to the late 19th century the vast majority of 'Palestinians' hadn't set foot in Palestine.

Yeah! More war! More violence! More strain on our economies! More disgruntled refugees! **** Middle East Peace!

Doesn't make what you said right though:
(from Wiki)
Zionism does not have a uniform ideology, but has evolved in a dialogue among a plethora of ideologies: General Zionism, Religious Zionism, Labor Zionism, Revisionist Zionism, Green Zionism, etc. However, the common denominator among all Zionists is the claim to Eretz Israel as the national homeland of the Jews and as the legitimate focus for the Jewish national self-determination (as shown, among others, by Gideon Shimoni).[2] It is based on historical ties and religious traditions
linking the Jewish people to the Land of Israel.[3]

Originally Posted by Lois Lane

Doesn't make what you said right though:
(from Wiki)
Zionism does not have a uniform ideology, but has evolved in a dialogue among a plethora of ideologies: General Zionism, Religious Zionism, Labor Zionism, Revisionist Zionism, Green Zionism, etc. However, the common denominator among all Zionists is the claim to Eretz Israel as the national homeland of the Jews and as the legitimate focus for the Jewish national self-determination (as shown, among others, by Gideon Shimoni).[2] It is based on historical ties and religious traditions
linking the Jewish people to the Land of Israel.[3]

Correct, there are numerous forms of Zionism. Religious Zionism is both a later, and very small minority of the overall very large Zionist movement. Furthermore none of the founding tenets nor founding members of the Zionist movement were religious. Another issue is that they're very difficult to distinguish from orthodox Jews, which itself is a separate movement. Fundamentally Zionism has always be a nationalist, ethnic and at times socialist movement. While religion has played a VERY minor role, it was neither significant in any facet of the Zionist movement, nor has it ever offered any significant direction for the movement.

Originally Posted by DC

Correct, there are numerous forms of Zionism. Religious Zionism is both a later, and very small minority of the overall very large Zionist movement. Furthermore none of the founding tenets nor founding members of the Zionist movement were religious. Another issue is that they're very difficult to distinguish from orthodox Jews, which itself is a separate movement. Fundamentally Zionism has always be a nationalist, ethnic and at times socialist movement. While religion has played a VERY minor role, it was neither significant in any facet of the Zionist movement, nor has it ever offered any significant direction for the movement.

Have Israeli Zionists ever championaed any other religious equal rights or the establishment of any other religious homeland DC?

If not, they are a religious based movement. and indeed they are:

After almost two millennia of existence of the Jewish diaspora without a national state, the Zionist movement was founded in the late 19th century by secular Jews, largely as a response by Ashkenazi Jews to rising antisemitism in Europe, exemplified by the Dreyfus Affair in France and the Anti-Jewish pogroms in the Russian Empire.[4] The political movement was formally established by the Austro-Hungarian journalist Theodor Herzl in 1897 following the publication of his book Der Judenstaat.[5] At that time, the movement sought to encourage Jewish migration to the Ottoman Palestine.


which makes this remark of yours:
While religion has played a VERY minor role, it was neither significant in any facet of the Zionist movement, nor has it ever offered any significant direction for the movement.

not really accurate, doesn't it?

and further, the founder of zionism, Herzl, founded it based on his wanting a homeland for Jews so that anti-semitism would be less possible. Now if Herzl was concerned about anti-semitism and put forward ideas as to how to combat it, I would say that The Founder of Zionism was concerned about a religious issue, being prejudice based on reliogion.

Theodor Herzl - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

Didn't offer any significant direction for the movement??? It was all about Jews finding a homeland! You can call it nationalist but it was a nation founded on the premise of Judaism. They didn't involve themselves in any other nationalistic cause of the day nor have done since.

Zionism was always about Jews finding an identity. Not Hungarians or Tibetans or SriLankans for example. Jews. People of a religion and defined as such.

Originally Posted by Lois Lane

Have Israeli Zionists ever championaed any other religious equal rights

Err, yes, Israel one of the only countries in the Middle East with complete freedom of religion.

If not, they are a religious based movement. and indeed they are:

After almost two millennia of existence of the Jewish diaspora without a national state, the Zionist movement was founded in the late 19th century by secular Jews, largely as a response by Ashkenazi Jews to rising antisemitism in Europe, exemplified by the Dreyfus Affair in France and the Anti-Jewish pogroms in the Russian Empire.[4] The political movement was formally established by the Austro-Hungarian journalist Theodor Herzl in 1897 following the publication of his book Der Judenstaat.[5] At that time, the movement sought to encourage Jewish migration to the Ottoman Palestine.


which makes this remark of yours:
While religion has played a VERY minor role, it was neither significant in any facet of the Zionist movement, nor has it ever offered any significant direction for the movement.

not really accurate, doesn't it?

and further, the founder of zionism, Herzl, founded it based on his wanting a homeland for Jews so that anti-semitism would be less possible. Now if Herzl was concerned about anti-semitism and put forward ideas as to how to combat it, I would say that The Founder of Zionism was concerned about a religious issue, being prejudice based on reliogion.

Theodor Herzl - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

Didn't offer any significant direction for the movement??? It was all about Jews finding a homeland! You can call it nationalist but it was a nation founded on the premise of Judaism. They didn't involve themselves in any other nationalistic cause of the day nor have done since.

Zionism was always about Jews finding an identity. Not Hungarians or Tibetans or SriLankans for example. Jews. People of a religion and defined as such.

And you have made the truly gigantic mistake of assuming Jews = Judaism. Jews are also an ethnic group, which is what Zionism refers to, not Judaism.

Originally Posted by DC

Err, yes, Israel one of the only countries in the Middle East with complete freedom of religion.

My WHOLE question was whether zionists have ever championed a homeland for another religious group. To which the answer is no. So Zionism was ccompletely bound up in eratz Israel, the Jewish homeland.

And you have made the truly gigantic mistake of assuming Jews = Judaism. Jews are also an ethnic group, which is what Zionism refers to, not Judaism.

Oh so now since you have no answer you resort to semantics. I know of no other ethnic group who, as a whole, pratise Judaism and are not Jews.

ask Herzl what he meant. He used the terms interchangeably.

There are reports that around 20,000 people have died in the Libya conflict so far.
It really is not looking good for Obama and his latest kinetic action (that's war, by the way). NATO are shown to be ineffectual.

Turkey are likely to take military action against Syria this week, Turkey and Iran both have aircraft operating in Northern Syria.

Originally Posted by Lois Lane

My WHOLE question was whether zionists have ever championed a homeland for another religious group. To which the answer is no. So Zionism was ccompletely bound up in eratz Israel, the Jewish homeland.

Because it's a Jewish movement...

Oh so now since you have no answer you resort to semantics. I know of no other ethnic group who, as a whole, pratise Judaism and are not Jews.

ask Herzl what he meant. He used the terms interchangeably.

These aren't semantics, the Jewish people exist as a separate ethnic grouping, both culturally and genetically, irrelevant of their religious practices. For example there are groups of Jews in the north of India who practise Hinduism, but they are ethnically Jewish.

Originally Posted by Barry

There are reports that around 20,000 people have died in the Libya conflict so far.
It really is not looking good for Obama and his latest kinetic action (that's war, by the way). NATO are shown to be ineffectual.

Turkey are likely to take military action against Syria this week, Turkey and Iran both have aircraft operating in Northern Syria.

When were they not....a committee to run a war: Jeez!

Originally Posted by DC

Because it's a Jewish movement...[\/quote]

so that is presumably why you wrote this in Post32???
While religion has played a VERY minor role, it was neither significant in any facet of the Zionist movement, nor has it ever offered any significant direction for the movement.

These aren't semantics, the Jewish people exist as a separate ethnic grouping, both culturally and genetically, irrelevant of their religious practices. For example there are groups of Jews in the north of India who practise Hinduism, but they are ethnically Jewish.[/QUOTE]

Israel welcomes all JEWS from wherever they are. JEWS as in following the Judaic faith. I don't think small groups of Hindus would call themselves Jewish.
Yu can't stretch it any further DC. Zionism was for the expression of a Jewish dream of a homeland. For Jews. Who practise the Jewish faith. A religion. Herzl used the terms interchangeably and that is good enough for me. Zionism was a religious movement for people of a certain religion. Not of another religion...of the JEWISH religion.

Theodor Herzl Quotes - BrainyQuote

Originally Posted by Lois Lane

These aren't semantics, the Jewish people exist as a separate ethnic grouping, both culturally and genetically, irrelevant of their religious practices. For example there are groups of Jews in the north of India who practise Hinduism, but they are ethnically Jewish.

Israel welcomes all JEWS from wherever they are. JEWS as in following the Judaic faith. I don't think small groups of Hindus would call themselves Jewish.
Yu can't stretch it any further DC. Zionism was for the expression of a Jewish dream of a homeland. For Jews. Who practise the Jewish faith. A religion. Herzl used the terms interchangeably and that is good enough for me. Zionism was a religious movement for people of a certain religion. Not of another religion...of the JEWISH religion.

Theodor Herzl Quotes - BrainyQuote[/QUOTE]

Is 'Pauli' using a different sign in ................? or something even more bizarre.

Oh dear, we are at "recipe for war fever pitch" with reports that Israel and the USA are about to attack Iran. Iran are threatening massive retaliation.

Reports are in that BRITISH troops are preparing for a USA led attack upon Iran.
Report: British army prepares for US strike in Iran - Israel News, Ynetnews
This is likely to come from ships in the gulf, so expect Iran to launch shore to ship missiles as a pre-emptive strike.

As they said on another programme - anything could happen in the next half hour.

P.S. I expect Obama has to do something to improve his ratings, but this is a bit drastic, if true.

Here is the Guardian article

UK military steps up plans for Iran attack amid fresh nuclear fears | World news | The Guardian

Not quite as alarming as it would sound, but still veeeeery interesting.

There's more on Debka, Don, but you may know, some is speculation, but they are right more often than not.
DEBKAfile, Political Analysis, Espionage, Terrorism, Security

A potential US-British strike to pre-empt this move would also be timed for the run-up to America's next presidential election in November 2012.

Hmmm, we'll see.

That would win an election for US president. Those people hate Iran.

I'm not sure if it would do the same or the complete opposite for a British PM.

Originally Posted by Baff

That would win an election for US president. Those people hate Iran.

I'm not sure if it would do the same or the complete opposite for a British PM.

Unlikely, the American people do not want a war with Iran. If any military action does occur (and I tend to think this is unlikely from the Americans), it will almost certainly only be air and missile strikes, with no boots on the ground. America (and arguably the West as a whole) simply cannot afford another Afghanistan or Iraq style war and Iran is a much bigger opponent than either of them.

Originally Posted by DC

Firstly, there is no single standing military capable of doing this (let alone political will).

I'll agree about the political will, but otherwise there are a smallish number of military forces quite capable of destroying the state of Israel.
Don't forget how small Israel is.

You might notice that the other year, when it was the Germany Navy who showed up and not a floatilla of peaceniks, the Israeli's all bit their collective lips and hid.

Originally Posted by DC

Unlikely, the American people do not want a war with Iran.

I don't think I've ever spoken to one who doesn't.
They hate Iran. They hate muslims.
They blame Iran for dead soldiers in Iraq and Afghanistan. For daring to openly rival them, for it's belicose words against Israel and for the sacking of their embassy. Not to mention all the terrorist stuff they bang on about with Hezbollah and Hamas.

That's a fight America has been spoiling for, for a long long time. They have a hard on for Iran and have done all my life.
IF Obama knocks out the Iranian nuclear industry, quickly and with little to no losses, he will get re-elected.

Originally Posted by Baff

I'll agree about the political will, but otherwise there are a smallish number of military forces quite capable of destroying the state of Israel.
Don't forget how small Israel is.

Not currently. Occupy the country certainly but it would turn into a Vietnam/Iraq style situation very quickly where the local population is not only hostile but armed and trained in military tactics. Even if the Israelis did not use nuclear weapons to defend themselves, the cost of maintaining an occupation in both political and economic terms is simply not possible for any military.

You might notice that the other year, when it was the Germany Navy who showed up and not a floatilla of peaceniks, the Israeli's all bit their collective lips and hid.

I'm not aware of any German naval involvement, but not confronting the Germans is not an indication of being afraid of them. In any case, what reason would Israel have to confront German ships operating in the Mediterranean?

Originally Posted by Baff

I don't think I've ever spoken to one who doesn't.
They hate Iran. They hate muslims.
They blame Iran for dead soldiers in Iraq and Afghanistan. For daring to openly rival them, for it's belicose words against Israel and for the sacking of their embassy. Not to mention all the terrorist stuff they bang on about with Hezbollah and Hamas.

That's a fight America has been spoiling for, for a long long time. They have a hard on for Iran and have done all my life.
IF Obama knocks out the Iranian nuclear industry, quickly and with little to no losses, he will get re-elected.

They would be perfectly willing to go to war usually, however no longer. The American people know that America does not have the funds to conduct another war, hence why going to war would be political suicide, it would destroy the American economy.