Originally Posted by Lots2say

The area I call home has twice the national average of recorded crime in the personal violence category and 50% more sexual assaults. In fact all bar one area scores higher. We are fed stories of massive reductions overall since last year but it's hard to have faith in those figures. Can we really continue to blame unemployment for this situation? Or is it time to acknowledge that some folk are too far into the deviant lifestyle to be saved?

Hmm, we've had an average 9.8% drop in crime round here over the last 12 months, with burglaries down by around 25% and vehicle crime down by about 14%, although there has been an 11% rise in violent crime. But your point about the lifestyle of some people is well made, and I would tend to agree with you; from what I've read and heard from people I know within the justice system, a significant percentage of habitual crime does tend to centre round a relatively small percentage of people, the balance of petty and opportunistic crime being fairly evenly spread round the population.

Perhaps you should move home!

Originally Posted by Midas

Hmm, we've had an average 9.8% drop in crime round here over the last 12 months, with burglaries down by around 25% and vehicle crime down by about 14%, although there has been an 11% rise in violent crime. But your point about the lifestyle of some people is well made, and I would tend to agree with you; from what I've read and heard from people I know within the justice system, a significant percentage of habitual crime does tend to centre round a relatively small percentage of people, the balance of petty and opportunistic crime being fairly evenly spread round the population.

Perhaps you should move home!

I am not sure any of these numbers can be relied upon. The last government was extremely adept at changing the basis on which crimes were recorded.
Equally over the last 13 years the police have been instructed not to attend certain categories of crimes and hence these may have gone unrecorded. Paperwork after arrest has been no incentive to police to work hard apprehending wrong-doers, so overall I totally discount the present trend statistics! Lets watch the next series in about 6 months time?

I would say crime was on the increase. Reported crime is a completly different kettle of fish to actual crime. Statistics dont mean a diddely squat.

Originally Posted by soloman

I am not sure any of these numbers can be relied upon. The last government was extremely adept at changing the basis on which crimes were recorded.
Equally over the last 13 years the police have been instructed not to attend certain categories of crimes and hence these may have gone unrecorded. Paperwork after arrest has been no incentive to police to work hard apprehending wrong-doers, so overall I totally discount the present trend statistics! Lets watch the next series in about 6 months time?

OK, I'll accept that, although the figures I quoted from the Home Office website are supposed to be for all reported crime, not just attended-to crime. But your point about an increasing number of people not even bothering to report many forms of crime, unless there's an insurance claim involved, in quite valid, as is Streetwalker's remark about statistics, which of course can be displayed in a multitude of different ways.

It would be interesting to try to find out whether the reported drop in crime round here (a predominantly rural/small market town/village region) has been caused because of increasing honestly (OK, unlikely!), better policing (hmm...) or criminals going out of the area for easier pickings in adjacent urban areas.

Originally Posted by Midas

OK, I'll accept that, although the figures I quoted from the Home Office website are supposed to be for all reported crime, not just attended-to crime. But your point about an increasing number of people not even bothering to report many forms of crime, unless there's an insurance claim involved, in quite valid, as is Streetwalker's remark about statistics, which of course can be displayed in a multitude of different ways.

It would be interesting to try to find out whether the reported drop in crime round here (a predominantly rural/small market town/village region) has been caused because of increasing honestly (OK, unlikely!), better policing (hmm...) or criminals going out of the area for easier pickings in adjacent urban areas.

To deal with the issue 'all reported crime, not just attended-to crime', do remember that unless you are given, and indeed should ask for, a crime number, then it my well not be recorded!

Good point Manrow. I agree that stats are unreliable, but sometimes what is published is as interesting as what is not. Perhaps the deeper issue is that scamming, robbing and helping yourself to whatever you fancy for free is pretty much an occupation option for many in the north. Perhaps the only one for some.

I have to agree that you can do anything you like with stats and the criteria that you use can be manipulated in many different ways. Many years ago I was responsible for compiling stats in a government department so I know of which I speak.

Stats mean nothing more often than not, because a lot of crimes are NOT reported. The victim has to stand in front of the accused in court, a grilling by the defence council and after all that, no action taken, more often as not, with the accused walking away from the court with their friends laughining at their victim, probably planning a revenge attack on their victim.

Originally Posted by Lots2say

The area I call home has twice the national average of recorded crime in the personal violence category and 50% more sexual assaults. In fact all bar one area scores higher. We are fed stories of massive reductions overall since last year but it's hard to have faith in those figures. Can we really continue to blame unemployment for this situation? Or is it time to acknowledge that some folk are too far into the deviant lifestyle to be saved?

Unemployment, absolute rubbish, the age old excuse by the "do-gooders"! Most criminals wouldn"t want a job anyway - WHY SHOULD THEY WHEN THEY ROB PEOPLE LIKE YOU AND ME! A few years ago I needed a job - sorted in five minutes down the local jobcenter; work out there if you want it. I know a very good cure for a defiant lifestyle, won"t stop it completely, but will reduce the stats, and non reported crimes: The penalties need to be made less attractive to these people. Everything from financial penalties to capital punishment being restored - THEN WATCH THOSE STATS DROP!

Originally Posted by octopus

Stats mean nothing more often than not, because a lot of crimes are NOT reported. The victim has to stand in front of the accused in court, a grilling by the defence council and after all that, no action taken, more often as not, with the accused walking away from the court with their friends laughining at their victim, probably planning a revenge attack on their victim.

That really must be awful.
However there has been much media comment that the police now routinely ignore the yob culture roaming our city centres and housing estates. We all knew it, but thought reporting it was pointless; you cannot get much closer to an out-of-control community than that.

Originally Posted by octopus

Unemployment, absolute rubbish, the age old excuse by the "do-gooders"! Most criminals wouldn"t want a job anyway - WHY SHOULD THEY WHEN THEY ROB PEOPLE LIKE YOU AND ME! A few years ago I needed a job - sorted in five minutes down the local jobcenter; work out there if you want it. I know a very good cure for a defiant lifestyle, won"t stop it completely, but will reduce the stats, and non reported crimes: The penalties need to be made less attractive to these people. Everything from financial penalties to capital punishment being restored - THEN WATCH THOSE STATS DROP!

Agreed, my friend is a good example. He has been made redundant 6 times since starting work, and in each case he has gotten another job in under 2 weeks. Twice he had to move away to another area to get work but he did it anyway because he likes to be independant. He doesnt have a trade, he works mostly in factories and whatever he can turn his hand to and has done road work, bin collections, factory work, circuit boards etc. The point being that there is generally work out there if you are willing to look for it or move.

Unfortunately those who are not content to lounge in front of the xbox with a can of lager in one hand and controller in the other waiting for their disability payment for a bad back and giro to drop through the post but equally don't want to work for their money prefer crime as if pays better, petty crime especially since all that happens if you get caught is a slap on the wrist and then back out to do it again.

Originally Posted by soloman

That really must be awful.
However there has been much media comment that the police now routinely ignore the yob culture roaming our city centres and housing estates. We all knew it, but thought reporting it was pointless; you cannot get much closer to an out-of-control community than that.

Sadly true - and succesive goverments, must bear responsiblility for this, I"m afraid, with their reluctance to deal effectively with the problem.

Originally Posted by octopus

Sadly true - and succesive goverments, must bear responsiblility for this, I"m afraid, with their reluctance to deal effectively with the problem.

I believe this government will very definitely take control of this issue.

It seems Labour has always tried to look after its heartland - the major towns and housing areas - which is why they have focussed on benefits and presumably don't want the police treading on toes in the very same areas?

Can it be that the police are politically motivated too? I had always thought not until now; maybe they do try to appease their masters in terms of the local political party which appoints them?

Originally Posted by soloman

I believe this government will very definitely take control of this issue.

It seems Labour has always tried to look after its heartland - the major towns and housing areas - which is why they have focussed on benefits and presumably don't want the police treading on toes in the very same areas?

Can it be that the police are politically motivated too? I had always thought not until now; maybe they do try to appease their masters in terms of the local political party which appoints them?

I would really like to think that - but how? The only way they can win this battle is by adopting the methods I endorse:

The return of capital punishment - for crimes resulting in murder for over 18s (They may have to leave the EU - as the "old women" of Brussels, wouldn"t like that much)
The return of corporal punishment - for vandalism, anti-social behavoir or crimes or offences involving minor violence.
Making the culprits resonsible for any finanicial liabilty caused by their actions - payment in FULL for damage to property. If necessary, ballifs to remove property to the value of the damage caused, plus money stopped at source from wages or benefits if necessary. ie, a gang of ten youths cause £100,000 of damage to a housing estate, personal liabilty £10,000 each.

Tougher prisons and remand homes - designed to cause misery to the inmates.
No help for visits - in fact no visits at all without the say so of the governor. If a person lives in London - send him or her to Scotland, and visa versa.
If under 18s are convicted of murder lock them up for EVER! If they kick someone to death at 15, and they live to 100 years old - 85 YEARS IN JAIL!
Parents more accountable financialy and moraly.

Just a few ideas - but I can"t see this really happening with the coalition anymore than with Labour; you have to think along these lines to reduce the stats big time. They have to what they do with us motorists - SHOW THEM THEY CAN"T WIN!

Originally Posted by octopus

I would really like to think that - but how? The only way they can win this battle is by adopting the methods I endorse:

The return of capital punishment - for crimes resulting in murder for over 18s (They may have to leave the EU - as the "old women" of Brussels, wouldn"t like that much)
The return of corporal punishment - for vandalism, anti-social behavoir or crimes or offences involving minor violence.
Making the culprits resonsible for any finanicial liabilty caused by their actions - payment in FULL for damage to property. If necessary, ballifs to remove property to the value of the damage caused, plus money stopped at source from wages or benefits if necessary. ie, a gang of ten youths cause £100,000 of damage to a housing estate, personal liabilty £10,000 each.

Tougher prisons and remand homes - designed to cause misery to the inmates.
No help for visits - in fact no visits at all without the say so of the governor. If a person lives in London - send him or her to Scotland, and visa versa.
If under 18s are convicted of murder lock them up for EVER! If they kick someone to death at 15, and they live to 100 years old - 85 YEARS IN JAIL!
Parents more accountable financialy and moraly.

Just a few ideas - but I can"t see this really happening with the coalition anymore than with Labour; you have to think along these lines to reduce the stats big time. They have to what they do with us motorists - SHOW THEM THEY CAN"T WIN!

A large part of me says "yes" to that Octopus, however there's also a small niggle that says "would we simply be building up trouble for ourselves in the future by creating an under-society of resentful and even more anti-social individuals?" Policies like this, which are undoubtedly heading in the right direction must go hand in hand with a much wider use of non-custodial sentencing - hard work in the community - and masses of education for those who are in prison, even using techniques verging on brainwashing, in order to instill some sense of responsibility and hope into the inmates.

Originally Posted by octopus

The only way they can win this battle is by adopting the methods I endorse:

No, octopus. The punishment you seek will only encourage crime. We need to tackle the source of the problem. A corrupt education system based on targets, bad parenting, bullying at schools and gang culture.

Beating a bad dog won't make it behave. You have to correct the behaviour in the bad dog's litter. Thatcher and Blair have written off two generations of teenagers lives, especially the most vulnerable. You are now more likely to be born poor and die poor than before Thatcher came to power, and rich children are more likely to die rich. It is a disgusting, restrictive regime that must be thrown out and reformed.

Originally Posted by Midas

A large part of me says "yes" to that Octopus, however there's also a small niggle that says "would we simply be building up trouble for ourselves in the future by creating an under-society of resentful and even more anti-social individuals?" Policies like this, which are undoubtedly heading in the right direction must go hand in hand with a much wider use of non-custodial sentencing - hard work in the community - and masses of education for those who are in prison, even using techniques verging on brainwashing, in order to instill some sense of responsibility and hope into the inmates.

Not with the prisons I have in mind. They would be terrified at the thought of going through those prison gates, if I were running them. If they misbehaved whilst in custody, time would be added to their sentence. For offences of anti-social behaviour, and similar, only 28 days in most cases - BUT 28 DAYS OF HELL WHICH CAN BE INCREASED, NOT REDUCED! Education and recreation facilities OUT! Just work and bed. Three meals a day (no choice, if they leave it, they go hungry). Each inmate moved to a different cell each night, so they cannot even form bonds and friendships among themselves. Visits only on special application to the governor. With a regime like that, yes, the "do-gooders" and the GUARDIAN readers wouldn"t like it, nor would the EU - but I think those stats would come down - DRAMATICALY! At the moment an anti-social behavoir offence is being commited every few seconds - some quite vile! If the stats are reduced to even one an hour I think this would be a hands down win; one a month, would be probably more accurate, with sanctions like above. As for being too tough, unless the conditions are on a parity with with a soviet labour camp, I don"t want to know. Degrading, dehumanising, then the estabilshment is doing its job. Do you really think they will be keen to re-offend, if they are confronted with these prisons/hellholes.

As for non custodial sentences, only people that deserve mercy on merit, not because they have no room at our 2010 HI DI HI"s. I can think of few like Nick Hogan, UKIP activist who was sent to prison for the vile crime of allowing people to smoke in his pub. Tony Martin who was terrorised by thugs - and looking at the possiblity of life behind bars for defending himself and I have this image of a little old 75 year old man hancuffed to a huge Police Officer, whilst hobbling along on his zimmer frame - again looking at jail for not paying his council tax bill, SHOCKING!. Prison for them, is a frighting prospect, but to its usual "customers", a holiday camp.

As for brainwashing, you can"t, with people like that, in the main, they don"t think of anyone except themselves - just brute force is the only language they understand. Watch the under-society crumble, like the spineless cowards they are!

Originally Posted by Syph

No, octopus. The punishment you seek will only encourage crime. We need to tackle the source of the problem. A corrupt education system based on targets, bad parenting, bullying at schools and gang culture.

Beating a bad dog won't make it behave. You have to correct the behaviour in the bad dog's litter. Thatcher and Blair have written off two generations of teenagers lives, especially the most vulnerable. You are now more likely to be born poor and die poor than before Thatcher came to power, and rich children are more likely to die rich. It is a disgusting, restrictive regime that must be thrown out and reformed.

With all due respect, I am frankly trying not to laugh! Shall I say, that is not my exprience. All those other problems you mention all stem from this issue of law and order.

Gang culture: People that belong to gangs are pathetic cowards! I was speaking to a Police Office whilst working in security. The first thing they do with gang members, they pick up, is seperate them, he told me; "they then cry for their mums", more often as not, he went on to say. Now, if they killed someone in a mugging, do you think, if they were looking at the prospect being hung, in a month or so, they wouldn"t think twice about being quite so violent to their unfortunate victim, who is now dead. I THINK SO! I have also met such people, and they strike me that way too. Gang culture = cowards to me! Cowards would crumble under the measures I outlined.

Parenting: I have some good ideas on that too. Any damage their under 18s do, they are responisible for. For instance, little Wayne and his nine mates damage a housing estate = £100,000 of damage, (as what happend to where my lives a few months ago) Wayne"s mum and dad get given a bill for £10,000 (Wayne"s share of the damage). I can here you say now, "oh, but they don"t have £10,000" - how they get it, is up to them! The way I would collect is send ballifs round to their home, to collect the entire contents of their home if necessary, Computers, TVs, cars, bikes, motorbikes, furniture and everything that can be loaded into a removal van, or driven away. This may only come to about £5,000, when valued - the other £5,000 stopped at source, either wages or benefit. With this kind no nonsense approach, do think bad parents would become good parents? With dad"s beer money gone and his couple of hours at the local football ground on a saturday afternoon for x amount years and mum"s two weeks in the sun and bingo gone the same amount of time- OR WORSE, they have to get another job, I they would make damn sure their offspring didn"t do it again, by informing the police if necesaary.

As for bullying, slightly different. Schools today are terrifying, in my opnion. Teachers have no power to administer effective discipline - even the teachers get bullied, remember Mr Harvey, with his dumbell. The first remedy, return of the cane, as UKIP would give schools the option of using it - good start! Even with this measure in place this unpleasant practice would continue, I"m afraid - always has done, always will do.

The most effective way of dealing with it, is to meet it head on - if possible, learn to defend yourself, not the easiest, but the best! Where possible, everybody should learn self-defence, like learning to swim - IT COULD SAVE YOUR LIFE ONE DAY! I am 50 years of age, and not including school, where I, too, had this problem, I have had to defend myself on five different occassions over the years. I personaly have not, taken lessons, but being well over 6ft tall, and fairly heavly built, does compensate for a lot, I have found. Idealy, leave it to the school, Police or courts, but, I have found, you don"t always get the choice - BE PREPARED!

The iron lady gave me inspiration, the greatest PM since Churchill in my opnion, but she couldn"t win the war on crime, because she couldn"t practice my kind of methods, and some wimps she had in her cabinet. Although, she, herself, tried - THE POLICE STATE OF THE EU, REALLY SAW TO THAT, THROUGH! Blair, the opposite - he is responsible for this situation, as is Gordon Brown. Everybody knows the reasons why. But do you really want to know who is REALLY responsible for the carnage we have? Frankly, people in goverment with YOUR views, Sypth.