Is a cap on non-EU immigrants really going to make a difference?

[Tootrue]

The Cleggeron coalition have decided to cap non-EU immigration but haven't we already seen figures that show that most of our immigrants are actually from within the EU? This means that I may lose my South African dentist or Australian doctor but the Romanian gangs who disable children in order to make money from begging are allowed to stay.

[Midas]

The Cleggeron coalition have decided to cap non-EU immigration but haven't we already seen figures that show that most of our immigrants are actually from within the EU? This means that I may lose my South African dentist or Australian doctor but the Romanian gangs who disable children in order to make money from begging are allowed to stay.

I doubt it very much, and you've got a very good point unless there are different caps for different grades of job.

[Streetwalker]

Well, a year on and the coalition government has done nothing on immigration. In fact its got worse .
These immigration figures should give David Cameron sleepless nights – Telegraph Blogs

The Cameron coalition hasn't delivered on anything .

[Lois Lane]

Look I fail to see the problem IF GB does what France doea.
I was talking to a British woman yesterday who used to run an accounting office and had 200 people under her. She can't work in France because her qualifications, being British, aren't seen as equivalent in France and she has to study for another French one to be able to work. The same happens for teachers and almost all other skiled labour.
It is a simple matter of doing the same in GB. You don't work unless you pass our equivalency exams. Perfectly within the rights of any EU country. It isn't a matter of complicated legal conditions and acts of Parliament. It is a matter that unions, professional associations and bodies, bodies of registration of chartered professionals etc all insist on it and lobby Parliament. It isn't discrimination. It is proving that the applicant is as good as someone form GB itself.
Seems straightforward to me.

[soloman]

Well, a year on and the coalition government has done nothing on immigration. In fact its got worse .
These immigration figures should give David Cameron sleepless nights – Telegraph Blogs

The Cameron coalition hasn't delivered on anything .

It certainly seems that way.
Tebbit also mentions the dreaded Human Rights legislation introduced by Tony Blair which actually discriminates against the resident population; how crazy is that?

[AMGINGLES]

Equivalence tests are important as they stop would stop the Pakistani doctors who's certificates where printed on an Epson 500 in Faisal's garage. Immigration is central to the New World Order Idea. It destroys Nationalism and allows the remolding of society in the corporatist image. In addition it creates labour competition and weakens the people.

Can you imagine what this country would have been like if the government had been able to draft in millions of immigrants during the dock strikes of the late 1800s? Well your about to find out.

[Streetwalker]

Look I fail to see the problem IF GB does what France doea.
I was talking to a British woman yesterday who used to run an accounting office and had 200 people under her. She can't work in France because her qualifications, being British, aren't seen as equivalent in France and she has to study for another French one to be able to work. The same happens for teachers and almost all other skiled labour.
It is a simple matter of doing the same in GB. You don't work unless you pass our equivalency exams. Perfectly within the rights of any EU country. It isn't a matter of complicated legal conditions and acts of Parliament. It is a matter that unions, professional associations and bodies, bodies of registration of chartered professionals etc all insist on it and lobby Parliament. It isn't discrimination. It is proving that the applicant is as good as someone form GB itself.
Seems straightforward to me.

The problem is Lois that the vast majority of immigrants that come to the UK are either unskilled or looking for work in industries such as Construction where certification can be completed in a matter of days.

[Lois Lane]

The problem is Lois that the vast majority of immigrants that come to the UK are either unskilled or looking for work in industries such as Construction where certification can be completed in a matter of days.

I understood that bricklayers and plasterers etc all belong to guilds or unions or COULD do.
If the will is there that way is clear.

[Streetwalker]

I understood that bricklayers and plasterers etc all belong to guilds or unions or COULD do.
If the will is there that way is clear.

That is not the case though the last Labour government started a scheme ( CSCS - Construction Skills Certification Scheme ) in an attempt to certificate construction workers. The Old City and Guilds apprenticships are no longer recognised . For £30 a Bricklayer can now get a card that tells him he is a bricklayer. For £30 Johnny forigner can get a card that tells his employer he is a bricklayer. For £30 I can get a card for you that says you are a Bricklayer. The Scheme is a complete farce .
The Guild of mastercraftsmen membership can be bought for about £100, another joke.

Someone is making a hell of a lot of cash out of these 'card schemes' and it aint me.

[Lois Lane]

That is not the case though the last Labour government started a scheme ( CSCS - Construction Skills Certification Scheme ) in an attempt to certificate construction workers. The Old City and Guilds apprenticships are no longer recognised . For £30 a Bricklayer can now get a card that tells him he is a bricklayer. For £30 Johnny forigner can get a card that tells his employer he is a bricklayer. For £30 I can get a card for you that says you are a Bricklayer. The Scheme is a complete farce .
The Guild of mastercraftsmen membership can be bought for about £100, another joke.

Someone is making a hell of a lot of cash out of these 'card schemes' and it aint me.

Well that shouldn't be too difficult to change if the will is there.
If each craft had a governing body and insisted on equivalency tests before handing out licences, (a fairly simple thing to do IMO) then the route to easy work would be blocked.
OTOH if GB leaves all its doors open you can't blame someone for going in. Nor can you blame anyone for allowing corruption to start. But instead of relying on the givt to find rthe silver bullet, each craft or skill could organise itslef prooperly without breaking any laws about discrimination etc. In the end it might raise standards too. There are a lot of native Brit cowboys out there who need to be stopped.

[Streetwalker]

Well that shouldn't be too difficult to change if the will is there.
If each craft had a governing body and insisted on equivalency tests before handing out licences, (a fairly simple thing to do IMO) then the route to easy work would be blocked.
OTOH if GB leaves all its doors open you can't blame someone for going in. Nor can you blame anyone for allowing corruption to start. But instead of relying on the givt to find rthe silver bullet, each craft or skill could organise itslef prooperly without breaking any laws about discrimination etc. In the end it might raise standards too. There are a lot of native Brit cowboys out there who need to be stopped.

Sorry Lois is dosnt work like that. Your proposals are included in the scheme mentioned (CSCS) regarding competency . We have in the past had assesors 'claiming' to be ex-tradesmen come on site (government sent) to look at tradesmens work /working. We have asked them to leave when it became obvious they were not qualifyied for the job . They basically had a checklist to complete ,take a few photos and your sorted. As I said the whole things a farce.

Getting a bit off topic here , though to round up , the forigners that enter the UK can easily find work in the construction industry,because.
The employers want them because they are cheaper than Brits.
They can easily obtian any required certification.
Private Housholds will employ them as they are cheaper, no questions asked ect

[Lois Lane]

Sorry Lois is dosnt work like that. Your proposals are included in the scheme mentioned (CSCS) regarding competency . We have in the past had assesors 'claiming' to be ex-tradesmen come on site (government sent) to look at tradesmens work /working. We have asked them to leave when it became obvious they were not qualifyied for the job . They basically had a checklist to complete ,take a few photos and your sorted. As I said the whole things a farce.

Getting a bit off topic here , though to round up , the forigners that enter the UK can easily find work in the construction industry,because.
The employers want them because they are cheaper than Brits.
They can easily obtian any required certification.
Private Housholds will employ them as they are cheaper, no questions asked ect

None of the abaove are difficult to change if the will is there. I don't care what the situation is ATM. I am speaking of a small shift within each trade. If the workers who want to protect their jobs want it badly enough, they will demand it. Less whinge, more will.

[Streetwalker]

None of the abaove are difficult to change if the will is there. I don't care what the situation is ATM. I am speaking of a small shift within each trade. If the workers who want to protect their jobs want it badly enough, they will demand it. Less whinge, more will.

This is all very well when working within large companies but unrealistic when working as a sole trader, self employed as many in the industry do.

[Lois Lane]

SW guilds, unions and professional/semi-professsional bodies are effective every where their members work.

How nice it would be if I rang up a carpenter to fix my porch and could ask him for his proof of capability stamped with an official seal to verify that he has been examined by an official body. That if he then said my drains needed sorting too I could ask someone else to do that since he isn't qualified to. Everyone does his proper job, no bleed of job description, no cowboys and no discrimination. Just naked proof of ability to a certain standard.

[Streetwalker]

SW guilds, unions and professional/semi-professsional bodies are effective every where their members work.

How nice it would be if I rang up a carpenter to fix my porch and could ask him for his proof of capability stamped with an official seal to verify that he has been examined by an official body. That if he then said my drains needed sorting too I could ask someone else to do that since he isn't qualified to. Everyone does his proper job, no bleed of job description, no cowboys and no discrimination. Just naked proof of ability to a certain standard.

Maybe I diddnt make myself clear Lois, certification in the construction industry is a farce , no ammount of certification shown by a prospective employee will gaurentee a standard of workmanship.

When calling a tradesman to your home you would be better off finding a reputable local person with a decent reputation . People who work locally tend to be bonafide.. Many make the mistake of using whoever gives the cheapest quote or cheap forign labour then scream cowboys when the work turns out to be below par.

[Lois Lane]

SW Maybe I didn't make myself clear.
I am not speaking of NOW.
I am speaking of an entirely new scheme.

[Streetwalker]

SW Maybe I didn't make myself clear.
I am not speaking of NOW.
I am speaking of an entirely new scheme.

Oh , a scheme that insures that every immigrant comming into the country is capable of an acceptable standard of work in their given industry . That would mean sending thousands of tutors ,building colleges, schools and universities abroad. We dont even do enough vocational training in our own country , that is where we should be looking , not making up schemes that benefit immigrants that we either dont or shouldn't need.

We used to have such a scheme by the way in the building trade , we called them apprenticships , replaced by the worthless idea of NVQ's

[Lois Lane]

Nope you still don't get it.
NO ONE can work unless they can pass an exam (theory and/or practical) and be accredited. The accrrreditation is rooted in the standards the particular xraft thinks is a mark of excellence. Schools and colleges must also teach to this standard. They don't have to close. There just has to be some coordination.

[Streetwalker]

Nope you still don't get it.
NO ONE can work unless they can pass an exam (theory and/or practical) and be accredited. The accrrreditation is rooted in the standards the particular xraft thinks is a mark of excellence. Schools and colleges must also teach to this standard. They don't have to close. There just has to be some coordination.

All well and good in theory, in practice, from experience, it dosnt work .

[fubar]

The Cleggeron coalition have decided to cap non-EU immigration but haven't we already seen figures that show that most of our immigrants are actually from within the EU? This means that I may lose my South African dentist or Australian doctor but the Romanian gangs who disable children in order to make money from begging are allowed to stay.

Do we really need them in the first place thats the question we should be asking ourselves clearly the ones we have are a drain on this countrys social structure,and benifit no one but the immigrant,A total ban on imegration for at least 10 years should do the trick don't you think??.

[Lois Lane]

Do we really need them in the first place thats the question we should be asking ourselves clearly the ones we have are a drain on this countrys social structure,and benifit no one but the immigrant,A total ban on imegration for at least 10 years should do the trick don't you think??.

It wouldn't work any more than Scargill's behaviour did in the 80's.

[Baff]

The Cleggeron coalition have decided to cap non-EU immigration but haven't we already seen figures that show that most of our immigrants are actually from within the EU? This means that I may lose my South African dentist or Australian doctor but the Romanian gangs who disable children in order to make money from begging are allowed to stay.

Bolting the stable after the horse has gone.

We had two big waves of migration from outside the EU in my life time. West Indian, and then East Indian.
They could still be a significant number....

Unfortunately all of these pale into insignificance behind the latest arrivals the eastern Europeans.
It can't hurt to cap non EU migration, but as usual it is just another singular failure to address the issue. An obfuscation on the governments unwillingness to face up to the EU.

Nothing can be done about it short of a revolution and once again, the cure is worse than the disease. So we just make the best of it in my opinion.

There are two ways you can look at these kinds of things.
Either you are dying of cancer, or you are living with cancer.

It's one of those glass is half full, half empty things.

[fubar]

It wouldn't work any more than Scargill's behaviour did in the 80's.

Why not,it does them and us a disservice being here as it benefits them and not us.

[uganda]

All well and good in theory, in practice, from experience, it dosnt work .

Right, are you saying there's no answer to it then?