Hi Ross,
I know that Dougie's already done the official welcome elsewhere so let me add my own welcome and say please do stick around, I look forward to debating with you soon.

A centre left A level politics student eh? Sounds suspiciously like myself a year or two ago... You'll find a lot of support and a lot of opposition for your views, though as a moderate I'm sure you won't get engaged too much in any particularly heated arguments (and by that I mean the ****-slinging ones). Good luck, and have fun.

but there is no 'centre left' - not even in world politics anymore!

Originally Posted by enginetorque

but there is no 'centre left' - not even in world politics anymore!

There is. For instance, I support a great level of private enterprise, yet I advocate the NHS. That's an example of centre-leftism.

Originally Posted by DougieG

There is. For instance, I support a great level of private enterprise, yet I advocate the NHS. That's an example of centre-leftism.

No it's not - not really - it's an example of common sense maybe, but what you advocate is the Tory mandate today!

Originally Posted by enginetorque

No it's not - not really - it's an example of common sense maybe, but what you advocate is the Tory mandate today!

Equally it is the Lib Dem's and Labour's policy. Many would argue that the Tories are actually technically centre left, and the only thing that I would say makes them not is the party's habit of ****ting on the poor via benefits etc. The NHS is a fundamentally left wing thing, and yes, it is an example of common sense. Don't confuse right wing ideology with 'common sense' or 'straight talking'.

Originally Posted by DougieG

Equally it is the Lib Dem's and Labour's policy. Many would argue that the Tories are actually technically centre left, and the only thing that I would say makes them not is the party's habit of ****ting on the poor via benefits etc. The NHS is a fundamentally left wing thing, and yes, it is an example of common sense. Don't confuse right wing ideology with 'common sense' or 'straight talking'.

Some misunderstanding here (on your part....) methinks - benefits have been decimated by 'New' Labour for starters!

The NHS isn't 'fundmentally' anything today, as far as its political sense goes - in fact it's probably more akin to the right where management (who runs things) goes - it certainly has to balance its accounts!

Common sense - straight talking - lead me to it!

Originally Posted by enginetorque

The NHS isn't 'fundmentally' anything today, as far as its political sense goes

What!? You've not heard the slogan "better red than dead" then, the idea that the NHS is not "the most socialist and most popular" (to quoteTony Benn) institution in this country is ludicrous. You're not having that one friend, your 2common sense straight talkers" were vehement in their opposition to it's creation.
Where the hell do you get the idea that the books ever balanced under a Tory administration? Never have and never will, the only difference is what they've spent the money they don't posess on!

Originally Posted by enginetorque

Some misunderstanding here (on your part....) methinks - benefits have been decimated by 'New' Labour for starters!

The NHS isn't 'fundmentally' anything today, as far as its political sense goes - in fact it's probably more akin to the right where management (who runs things) goes - it certainly has to balance its accounts!

Common sense - straight talking - lead me to it!

The NHS is left wing, there's no question of it. How many leftists have you ever heard advocate removing it, as opposed to several members of the conservative party? The left advocate provision of free services through taxation, the right oppose it. Look also at the USA, where the right are the ones who oppose an NHS type system so strongly. Similarly, free education and universal suffrage were induced by the left, and opposed strongly by most people on the right when they first came into play.

New Labour is appalling, don't even attempt to call them left wing, it would make you look silly and insult me by associating me with that bunch of right wing idiots from the Blair days.

Basically, the NHS IS left wing. I'm really surprised that you are contending this, its absolutely self-evident to most.

Originally Posted by Opinionated

What!? You've not heard the slogan "better red than dead" then, the idea that the NHS is not "the most socialist and most popular" (to quoteTony Benn) institution in this country is ludicrous. You're not having that one friend, your 2common sense straight talkers" were vehement in their opposition to it's creation.
Where the hell do you get the idea that the books ever balanced under a Tory administration? Never have and never will, the only difference is what they've spent the money they don't posess on!

Don't agree - Benn I have huge respect for but he's often misguided and of course the only reason he ever got into politics was via his hugely influential 'toff' upbringing - ironic eh!

Bevan created his NHS when it was crucially needed and society was very different - you cannot compare today's affluence with those times!

As for spending money they don't possess - HELLO - are you keeping up HELLO - we have a MASSIVE debt now, - who's invoked it ?????? (clue - not the Tories 0!

Reality check needed methinks !

Originally Posted by enginetorque

Don't agree - Benn I have huge respect for but he's often misguided and of course the only reason he ever got into politics was via his hugely influential 'toff' upbringing - ironic eh!

Bevan created his NHS when it was crucially needed and society was very different - you cannot compare today's affluence with those times!

As for spending money they don't possess - HELLO - are you keeping up HELLO - we have a MASSIVE debt now, - who's invoked it ?????? (clue - not the Tories 0!

Reality check needed methinks !

Read Op's post properly.

1) How does Benn's background demean his fight for socialism? If anything, I'd say it makes it more noble as he had nothing to personally gain.

2) True. But there are still some Tories who would like to end the NHS, whereas there are no Labour or Lib Dem supporters who think the same.

3)The Tories were also vastly in debt during their last government. Op's point was that Labour and the Tories just spend money on different things. Neither government really possesses the money it spends.

4) On reality checks, you ought to read a basic textbook on ideology if you still think that the NHS is not left wing.

Originally Posted by enginetorque

Don't agree - Benn I have huge respect for but he's often misguided and of course the only reason he ever got into politics was via his hugely influential 'toff' upbringing - ironic eh!

Well I dispute that, he was elected by a local CLP to stand like any other potential MP! In fact as you well know I am sure, on principle he revoked his hereditary title and therefore all privelege that went with it!

Bevan created his NHS when it was crucially needed and society was very different - you cannot compare today's affluence with those times!

Yes Nye Bevan architect of the NHS and which side of the political fence did he sit? Hmmm he was a socialist was he not, proving my main point that the NHS is founded on socialist priciples!

As for spending money they don't possess - HELLO - are you keeping up HELLO - we have a MASSIVE debt now, - who's invoked it ?????? (clue - not the Tories 0)!
Reality check needed methinks !

Did I say anywhere I thought NuLab were any better? All I'm saying is that you are misguided if you think that any Tory government (or Labour or Liberal) will balance the nation's books, the last time there was no national debt (I believe) was under Queen Anne's reign 300 years ago! Perhaps we should go back to feudal times eh?

Originally Posted by Opinionated

Well I dispute that, he was elected by a local CLP to stand like any other potential MP! In fact as you well know I am sure, on principle he revoked his hereditary title and therefore all privelege that went with it!

Yes Nye Bevan architect of the NHS and which side of the political fence did he sit? Hmmm he was a socialist was he not, proving my main point that the NHS is founded on socialist priciples!
Did I say anywhere I thought NuLab were any better? All I'm saying is that you are misguided if you think that any Tory government (or Labour or Liberal) will balance the nation's books, the last time there was no national debt (I believe) was under Queen Anne's reign 300 years ago! Perhaps we should go back to feudal times eh?

This could end up a very long winded series of exchanges if you don't read and inwardly digest what I posted!

Benn was from the elite - that he 'revoked' that is absolutely irrelevant - he would never have entered politics were it not for his (laudible) attitude towards his upbringing!

The NHS was FOUNDED........a looooooooooooooooong time ago when socialist principles were popular due to he extreme hardship of working mans life - it's NOT like that today - the fact that you're chatting away on a computer connected to a phone line tells you that much! Today's NHS is a very different animal and has to be run 'efficiently' and along free market principles or it cannot (however laudible the notion) survive!

I have scant regard for 'professional' politicians - they're all feathering their own nests - take Jaqui Smith's latest expose by way of example - along with the rest of them - party apart, there's little to choose between any of them - they're in it for a 'career' - the few that are truly there to make a difference are pretty difficult to pin down!

We live in a free market economy - that's now become global - socialism will never be an alternative - its moment has passed!

Originally Posted by DougieG

There is. For instance, I support a great level of private enterprise, yet I advocate the NHS. That's an example of centre-leftism.

It is also an example of centre-rightism. Don't tell me we are really the same!

Originally Posted by enginetorque

This could end up a very long winded series of exchanges if you don't read and inwardly digest what I posted!

Yes it could , pleased to meet you black pot! Answer the questions at the end and I'll take your accusations of my not reading your posts seriously.

Benn was from the elite - that he 'revoked' that is absolutely irrelevant - he would never have entered politics were it not for his (laudible) attitude towards his upbringing!

Not sure we can say that for a fact, it is quite possible that had he been born into a completely different family he would have ended up as a Labour MP.

The NHS was FOUNDED........a looooooooooooooooong time ago when socialist principles were popular due to he extreme hardship of working mans life - it's NOT like that today - the fact that you're chatting away on a computer connected to a phone line tells you that much! Today's NHS is a very different animal and has to be run 'efficiently' and along free market principles or it cannot (however laudible the notion) survive!

Created a long time ago, but still within living memory. Things really aren't all that different, there's still a huge gap between rich and poor and a moral obligation to provide universal health care free at the point of use.

I have scant regard for 'professional' politicians - they're all feathering their own nests - take Jaqui Smith's latest expose by way of example - along with the rest of them - party apart, there's little to choose between any of them - they're in it for a 'career' - the few that are truly there to make a difference are pretty difficult to pin down!

Well that makes two of us then! That's true, about politicians wanting to make a difference, I can think of two and guess what, they are both Labour MPs (Frank Field and Dennis Skinner - possibly Hillary Benn)!

We live in a free market economy - that's now become global - socialism will never be an alternative - its moment has passed!

All things pass away in the end and so will free market capitalism, socialist principles such as equality and egality will survive in some form.
Those questions I mentioned:
1) do you now accept that the NHS was founded on socialist principles?
2) Do you seriously believe that any Conservative government has ever (or ever will) balance the nations books?

Originally Posted by Major Sinic

It is also an example of centre-rightism. Don't tell me we are really the same!

Technically it isn't. We are fortunate enough in the UK that the right accept the NHS as the best way in which to order healthcare, but that doesn't mean that it is anything other than a socialistic institution.

Originally Posted by enginetorque

No it's not - not really - it's an example of common sense maybe, but what you advocate is the Tory mandate today!

If you think the NHS is an example of "common sense" then I have a bridge I would like to sell you.

I'll give you a real good price.

http://content.draftexpress.com/gall...1115538256.jpg

Originally Posted by flash

If you think the NHS is an example of "common sense" then I have a bridge I would like to sell you.

I'll give you a real good price.

Well our superior quality of health and our lower national spending on healthcare begs to differ Funny how all the Brits who have the NHS think its a great thing, while only you Americans who have never experienced it are strongly against.

Originally Posted by DougieG

Technically it isn't. We are fortunate enough in the UK that the right accept the NHS as the best way in which to order healthcare, but that doesn't mean that it is anything other than a socialistic institution.

Technically I don't give a tinkers curse how socialistic the NHS is, as a 'step to the right of centre Tory' I consider its existence a good measure of our social responsibility and those of my tax pounds which go into it, and are not wasted, I consider to be well spent.

Originally Posted by Major Sinic

Technically I don't give a tinkers curse how socialistic the NHS is, as a 'step to the right of centre Tory' I consider its existence a good measure of our social responsibility and those of my tax pounds which go into it, and are not wasted, I consider to be well spent.

Exactly, and we are blessed with sensible conservatives like yourself in the UK. My point was to dispute enginetorque's claim that the NHS was not a left-wing principle, and point out that it is fundamentally socialist in the ideology behind it. I'll accept that there are some things the ideology of the right does well, I'm sorry if it seemed I was trying to create some 'left against right' ****-slinging match.

Originally Posted by Major Sinic

Technically I don't give a tinkers curse how socialistic the NHS is, as a 'step to the right of centre Tory' I consider its existence a good measure of our social responsibility and those of my tax pounds which go into it, and are not wasted, I consider to be well spent.

OK then I have real special "twofer" bridge deal for you.

Not only do you get the Sunshine Skyway Bridge:

http://content.draftexpress.com/gall...1115538256.jpg

But for only $19.99 more I will throw in the Gandy Bridge:

http://www.florida-photo-magazine.co...1050_small.jpg

Originally Posted by flash

OK then I have real special "twofer" bridge deal for you.

Not only do you get the Sunshine Skyway Bridge:



But for only $19.99 more I will throw in the Gandy Bridge:

Isn't it usually you guys buying bridges from us? Even if it isn't the one you intended on buying?

Originally Posted by Opinionated

Isn't it usually you guys buying bridges from us? Even if it isn't the one you intended on buying?

I don't know. All I do know is that if somebody thinks having 50% of the money made in a country go to taxes and all you get out of it is a bloated inefficient second rate health care system then that person is a prime candidate for buying a bridge from me.

We have four major bridges going over Tampa Bay so I think I can do pretty well here.

It looks like I have identified at least two potential buyers on this thread. Don't ruin it for me. I need to buy a new tennis racket and they are expensive nowadays.

Originally Posted by flash

OK then I have real special "twofer" bridge deal for you.

Not only do you get the Sunshine Skyway Bridge:



But for only $19.99 more I will throw in the Gandy Bridge:

Prove that you are the owner or owners agent, and we might have a deal. The only catch I can see is you don't mention a price for the Sunshine Skyway Bridge, but $50 tops would be OK. Just wire me $100 as a statement of your good intent. This will be returned when the deal goes through of course.

Originally Posted by Major Sinic

Prove that you are the owner or owners agent, and we might have a deal. The only catch I can see is you don't mention a price for the Sunshine Skyway Bridge, but $50 tops would be OK. Just wire me $100 as a statement of your good intent. This will be returned when the deal goes through of course.

I think that if you trust your government to provide you with health care and you think you are getting a good deal then I also think you are naive enough to trust me that I own the bridge and to just send me the money. It just stands to reason, don't you agree?

Usually when a person is a sucker for one thing then he is a sucker for other things, right?

Did you see the stats I posted in the other thread about the dismal cancer survival rates in the UK? If that is considered a good deal to you then I just know you will send me the money to buy these bridges. Postal Money Order only.

Originally Posted by Opinionated

Isn't it usually you guys buying bridges from us? Even if it isn't the one you intended on buying?

Sorry, I would have ignored this, but this myth annoys the hell out of me.

THEY BOUGHT THE RIGHT BRIDGE!

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