Does anyone remember when this recent conflict betweem them started?... On the video he says that they didnt fire any before the 4th November 2008, so any one remember the date when this recent conflict started?...

Depends what you been by started , there was a ceasefire which was allowed to lapse then the Israeli operation started on the 27th December ... BBC NEWS | World | Middle East | Gaza conflict: Timeline .

Isn't the main issue here that Israel has at last admitted they were in the wrong, even though that admission might be highly qualified as to what and when.

Originally Posted by bnpneedsyou

Does anyone remember when this recent conflict betweem them started?... On the video he says that they didnt fire any before the 4th November 2008, so any one remember the date when this recent conflict started?...

On the evening November 4th/5th 2008 - While the world was focused on the US elections the ISA-IDF* on a joint operation entered Gaza and killed 6 Hamas militia, who they accused (rightly or wrongly) of building tunnels with the intention of kidnapping Israeli soldiers. This preceded Hamas resuming rocket/motar attacks on Southern Israel. According to Hamas, this incident, along with Israels refusal to lift the blockade was cited as the reason for allowing the cease fire to laspe.

List of rocket and mortar attacks in Israel in 2008 - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

*
ISA - Israeli Security Agency
IDF - Israeli Defence Force

Originally Posted by Midas

Isn't the main issue here that Israel has at last admitted they were in the wrong, even though that admission might be highly qualified as to what and when.

This is what im trying to clear up, the guy said Hamas hadnt fired upon them before the 4th of November. That means after the 4th Hamas has fired upon them, im trying to establish the exact date this cease fire was broke and they started attacking each other. You cant judge either side before we establish this, Israel always claimed they were defending themselves. So why would he blurt it out on TV that Israel attacked for no reason and that they broke the cease fire. He wouldnt would he?, unless he is totally stupid and wants to call himself a liar. It makes no sense.

I think this report is being used in the wrong context...

Originally Posted by bnpneedsyou

I think this report is being used in the wrong context...

Agree with you , it also was edited to stop at a convenient moment. I am not sure what the OP was trying to suggest but i was under the impression Israel was going to act no matter the amount of Rockets fired as they assumed (rightly) at some point Hamas would have resumed the Rocket attacks. From their point of view i can understand why they would not wait to be attacked before acting.
That said the disproportionate response , now over a thousand Palestinian Dead including many women and children may be one of the biggest mistakes Israel has made in it's history , world opinion being against them and a generation of new suicide bombers being a very heavy price to pay for the supposed destruction of Hamas in Gaza.

An interesting observation from someone in a private discussion group I subscribe to:-

"Aside from that, Israel needs Hamas and the occasional terror attack. Without it, it would drop from the news and wouldn't receive as much private foreign aid, which its entire economy depends on receiving. That is probably why they picked this particular point in time for the attack, before Obama gets in."

There's probably a lot of truth in that.

Originally Posted by bnpneedsyou

You cant judge either side before we establish this, Israel always claimed they were defending themselves.

I think for me where I lost all support for Israel, whom I used to be 100% behind, is when they started killing innocent civilians. The real deal breaker came though when they bombed UN sites and started using phospherous bombs.

At first they said the UN sites had Hamas fighters there, now they admit the bombing was an 'accident'. How can it be an 'accident' if they originally thought that Hamas fighters were there AND they had the co ordinates NOT to bomb the sites? What I foundvery telling was that previously unseen footage showed the UN site that had been badly damaged - guess what was burning? Aid - medical and food aid; in other words what the IDF were really doing was ensuring that food, medical and water aid didn't get to the Palestinians.

Additionally they initially said they didn't use banned weapons (phospherous bombs are banned under the Geneva Convention). Now they admit they use them because they 'have permission'. How can they have 'permission' to use banned weapons? Who gave them that 'permission'.

Finally there was the incident of the four small children found next to their dead mothers after being alone for days. The IDF knew about them, having secured the area; BUT they didn't tell the Red Cross worker who was there nor the UN for DAYS after the street was bombed and they wouldn't let them into the area. When this was told to the western press (who are still not allowed into Gaza) the leaders said there would be 'an investigation' - nothing's been heard about it since.

Their so called 'honesty' is now merely posing more questions than its answering. I think they should face war crime charges when this is all over; they've certainly broken every humanitarian rule in the book, and then to add onto their crimes the use of banned weapons....

Originally Posted by Midas

An interesting observation from someone in a private discussion group I subscribe to:-

"Aside from that, Israel needs Hamas and the occasional terror attack. Without it, it would drop from the news and wouldn't receive as much private foreign aid, which its entire economy depends on receiving. That is probably why they picked this particular point in time for the attack, before Obama gets in."

There's probably a lot of truth in that.

I think you have a good point there Midas. It certainly seems very rushed by Israeli standards, like they're trying to beat a deadline. You can only assume that the 'deadline' is Obama's inauguration. He's made it clear he intends to hold talks with Hamas as well as Israel in future; and its also well known that Israel doesn't enjoy the same level of support from the US democrats as it does from the republicans.

They have to inflict as much damage, death and disease before Obama takes office.

Originally Posted by Albion 69

That said the disproportionate response , now over a thousand Palestinian Dead including many women and children may be one of the biggest mistakes Israel has made in it's history , world opinion being against them and a generation of new suicide bombers being a very heavy price to pay for the supposed destruction of Hamas in Gaza.

I quite agree; but also the Google Page Ranking mishandling of the deaths of Palestinian children is also to blame for losing them support I think.

There was interview with an Israeli spokesman last friday - he talked passionately and at length about the stress that Israeli children were under and how they had to be bussed to different parts of Israel for 'respite breaks'. The interviewer, who had until then been quite pleasant to the man, sounded a bit angry and said that whilst that was terrible for the Israeli children there were some who would say at least they weren't dying.

The Israeli became very disinterested in the Palestinian children blaming their parents and Hamas for putting them at risk in the first place. He talked again about the 'respite' breaks for the Israeli children who were starting to show signs of Post Traumatic Stress because of the threat of rocket attacks.

The interviewer again pointed out that Palestinian children were being bombed regularly, were being killed or watching loved ones being killed on a regular basis. That they had little food, water or medical aid. Again the spokesman was very dismissive and just repeated that Israel was the victim and we should all consider their children before the palestinians as they were suffering because of the adults.

At this point the interviewer brought the interview to a (fairly) abrupt ending. I think, going from the tone of his voice, because he was getting angry and that wouldn't look good for him.

I think it's this sort of mishandling of their public faces that has put Israel in an even worse light to the rest of the world.

Of course using banned weapons and bombing UN sites that had aid in them probably hasn't helped either. But I think the pictures and footage of dead and dying children, some toddlers and babies, is what will stay with the rest of us the most - along with Israel's calm, disinterested dismissal of those losses.

One thousand dead in Palestine (a lot of those women and children), 13 in Israel (and four of those by their own hand).......never going to look good was it?

Originally Posted by Trouble43

I think you have a good point there Midas. It certainly seems very rushed by Israeli standards, like they're trying to beat a deadline. You can only assume that the 'deadline' is Obama's inauguration. He's made it clear he intends to hold talks with Hamas as well as Israel in future; and its also well known that Israel doesn't enjoy the same level of support from the US democrats as it does from the republicans.

They have to inflict as much damage, death and disease before Obama takes office.

Thats a very good point! It would seem though that it is having the opposite effect and Obama will have more domestic support for including Hammas in talks, than Clinton ever had for including Arafat! We'll see how long his honeymoon period lasts though wont we?

I think, with Hamas being a recognised terrorist group, that Obama will have his work cut out to win them round. BUT he seems very good at the 'grin and spin', even more than Blair. So he might be able to entice them in. We can only wait and see.

Certainly Israel is proving to be equally as intractable into commencing a definitive ceasefire as Hamas. Hence why I call both sets of leaders terrorists. They all enjoy the bloodbath, yet spare no thought for those being killed.

Originally Posted by Trouble43

They have to inflict as much damage, death and disease before Obama takes office.

Knowing that they'll likely receive little to no extra criticism for having done so, if they even receive any at all that is!

However I'm not too sure that Obama will actually do much more than issue a few strong words. Although as you also pointed out "Israel doesn't enjoy the same level of support from the US democrats as it does from the republicans", the US arms industry has huge power and influence within the government at all levels irrespective of which party is actually in power, and it would fight tooth and nail to retain its 'right' to continue supplying Israel.

Oh God, that's deeply depressing Midas - I think because its true.

I have a question for you all, because this topic seems to be discussed a lot lately wrong me.

Why does Hamas use human shields? Why do they have rocket sites in neighboorhoods and hide out in schools and UN sites (Including booby trapping a school AND a Zoo). Yet they somehow try to claim that they are fighting for the Palestinian people? How is any of these acts justified? How can anyone sit here and say that people who do this to their own people have any credibility or right to exist?

Now Israel is no saint either, but they actually phone the houses they are going to hit in order to minimize civilian casualties. Although I think they stopped giving Aid to the Palestinian people and are extremely aggressive in terms of their Offensive. But then again there are at least a significant portion of Hamas who don't intend to ever recognize Israel.

Why so much anti-Israel sentiment and virtually no condemnation of Hamas? Why is Israel seen so poorly?

Originally Posted by Spades

Why so much anti-Israel sentiment and virtually no condemnation of Hamas? Why is Israel seen so poorly?

OK then let me start by condeming Hammas, it is never right to use human shields in war. Is that clear enough?

Now to address why there is so much anti-Israeli feeling, I think its three fold. Firstly their response is always dispraportionate, meaning they take the role of playground bully.
Secondly even though the UN was responsible for her existence Israel has consistently ignored any resolution that has been made.
And lastly we think that a people who survived the most horrific war crime of the twentieth century should know better than to try and anihilate another.

Israel allows aid to Gaza:
Humanitarian Aid | Help Us Win

And this stamtment is not exact.
albion69 put in one thread which I don't remember the amount of rockets that has been fired to Israel since year 2000 untill today. albion can you please find it and upload it to here? thank you

Originally Posted by Opinionated74

OK then let me start by condeming Hammas, it is never right to use human shields in war. Is that clear enough?

Now to address why there is so much anti-Israeli feeling, I think its three fold. Firstly their response is always dispraportionate, meaning they take the role of playground bully.
Secondly even though the UN was responsible for her existence Israel has consistently ignored any resolution that has been made.
And lastly we think that a people who survived the most horrific war crime of the twentieth century should know better than to try and anihilate another.

dispraportional?
and over than 5800 missiles that Gaza lunched on us, when we did nothing, it's not dispraportional?
and running over terror attacks, bombing suicides, stomes throwing on israeli inoccent peope, stabs, and alot other terror methods - aren't dispraprotional??

Israel target is only Hamas militants.
Israel is trying with all her power to save the inoccent people - but it's becoming to be impossible when the Hamas is using them as human shields!!!

it's not dispraportinal at all. the Hamas is hiding and Israel has no choise than bombing casue they are hiding underground. I think that the palestinians should thank us for being so patience, and for let them fire on us over than 5800 for 8 years, and now we put our soldiers in danger to save their lives after the Hamas is stabing their backs!

since your'e deeply emotionally involved I wonder what would you say if you sister or your mother will be killed by missile or bombing suicide by palestinians?!

Originally Posted by Danielle..

dispraportional?
and over than 5800 missiles that Gaza lunched on us, when we did nothing, it's not dispraportional?
and running over terror attacks, bombing suicides, stomes throwing on israeli inoccent peope, stabs, and alot other terror methods - aren't dispraprotional??

Israel target is only Hamas militants.
Israel is trying with all her power to save the inoccent people - but it's becoming to be impossible when the Hamas is using them as human shields!!!

it's not dispraportinal at all. the Hamas is hiding and Israel has no choise than bombing casue they are hiding underground. I think that the palestinians should thank us for being so patience, and for let them fire on us over than 5800 for 8 years, and now we put our soldiers in dangour to save their lives after the Hamas is stabing their backs!

Isreal has an army and air force and Nuclear weapons (illegally). Hamas throw rocks at you (coz that's all they have plus a few rockets) and you then cut off water to civilian towns kill hundreds of innocents and bomb every country that neighbours you.

Rubbish that you do not target civilians. I know people who were killed in Lebanon in 2006 . You have killed far more civilians than Hamas have largely coz you have an army. The only difference between you and terrorists is you have better weapons - that's it. No moral difference at all

No sympathy here!"

Originally Posted by Marxist Nutter

Isreal has an army and air force and Nuclear weapons (illegally). Hamas throw rocks at you (coz that's all they have plus a few rockets) and you then cut off water to civilian towns kill hundreds of innocents and bomb every country that neighbours you.

Rubbish that you do not target civilians. I know people who were killed in Lebanon in 2006 . You have killed far more civilians than Hamas have largely coz you have an army. The only difference between you and terrorists is you have better weapons - that's it. No moral difference at all

No sympathy here!"

well.. it's the worse neighbours someone can get!

no.. the only difference between us is we care about humans life - they don't.
they even abanding their own people after they dragged them into a war!!!!

Isral only target is Hamas.
I can show you thousands of proofes,
but I guess you are so anti-israeli or even an arab that you wouldn't believe.
I don't talk with people who can't see the things as they are.
have nice day

Hamas is using terror methods which is illeagle even more,
and they put in the Grad missile they firing to Israel thousands deadly little iron balls - something that is illeage by the Ganeva Convetion.
about the 'white phosphorus":

“In some of the strikes in Gaza it’s pretty clear that phosphorus was used,” [Peter] Herby told The Associated Press. “But it’s not very unusual to use phosphorus to create smoke or illuminate a target. We have no evidence to suggest it’s being used in any other way.” …
Herby said that using phosphorus to illuminate a target or create smoke is legitimate under international law, and that there was no evidence the Jewish state was intentionally using phosphorus in a questionable way, such as burning down buildings or consciously putting civilians at risk.
White phosphorus has, however, been used as a weapon against civilians during this conflict… by Hamas. On Tuesday a mortar shell fired from Gaza into Israel contained white phosphorus. As the regional council’s security chief said: “the potential danger of using such a rocket is enormous. It is far more dangerous than other Qassam rockets and mortal shells. This is an escalation in the type of explosives the Palestinians use on civilians.”

Originally Posted by Danielle..

well.. it's the worse neighbours someone can get!

no.. the only difference between us is we care about humans life - they don't.
they even abanding their own people after they dragged them into a war!!!!

Isral only target is Hamas.
I can show you thousands of proofes,
but I guess you are so anti-israeli or even an arab that you wouldn't believe.
I don't talk with people who can't see the things as they are.
have nice day

You contradict yourself, You admit having attacked all of your neigbours and then say you only target Hamas. I can show you loads of proof to the contrary

Water Cut Off by Israel in Beita Municipality - International Middle East Media Center

Press TV - Israel attacks civilian areas in Gaza City

Hamas: Israeli Attacks Are "Holocaust" - World Watch

AFP: Israeli attack on UN in Gaza 'unacceptable': EU presidency

Geneva-based UN Human Rights Council condemns Israeli attacks on Gaza. - swissinfo

There is loads more where that came from. i may even be able to provide first hand witness reports of the 2006 Lebanon attacks as well. I also have a friend that grew up in Lebanon and saw his fellow school friends (aged 10) gunned down on the street in cold blood by Israeli soldiers.
Where is your proof that you do not target civilians anyway?
You are right there is no point arguing with someone who argues two contradictory points.

No I am not anti Israel and not an Arab either. just calls em as i sees 'em.

Originally Posted by Marxist Nutter

You contradict yourself, You admit having attacked all of your neigbours and then say you only target Hamas. I can show you loads of proof to the contrary

Water Cut Off by Israel in Beita Municipality - International Middle East Media Center

Press TV - Israel attacks civilian areas in Gaza City

Hamas: Israeli Attacks Are "Holocaust" - World Watch

AFP: Israeli attack on UN in Gaza 'unacceptable': EU presidency

Geneva-based UN Human Rights Council condemns Israeli attacks on Gaza. - swissinfo

There is loads more where that came from. i may even be able to provide first hand witness reports of the 2006 Lebanon attacks as well. I also have a friend that grew up in Lebanon and saw his fellow school friends (aged 10) gunned down on the street in cold blood by Israeli soldiers.
Where is your proof that you do not target civilians anyway?
You are right there is no point arguing with someone who argues two contradictory points.

No I am not anti Israel and not an Arab either. just calls em as i sees 'em.

you can get in to all the threads i commented on about the israeli situation and i puted there tones of links.
if you don't want to check and to see the truth i can give it to you tommorow when i'll get home.
either way this forum is full with my links.
have a good time !

Originally Posted by Danielle..

well.. it's the worse neighbours someone can get!

I more than suspect that the Palestinian people could well be saying that about Israel Danielle!

I know it's your country and you feel you need to defend it, but you do really need to get a much wider perspective on the very complex set of issues involved here. Nothing is one-sided, and neither I nor anyone else are saying that Hamas are right, however if you provoke someone enough, they'll bite back, and this is what Palestine is doing to Israel.

Open your eyes a bit and try to look at this from the viewpoint that the rest of the world has; it doesn't necessitate being disloyal to Israel to do so.

Originally Posted by Danielle..

you can get in to all the threads i commented on about the israeli situation and i puted there tones of links.
if you don't want to check and to see the truth i can give it to you tommorow when i'll get home.
either way this forum is full with my links.
have a good time !

No i'm happy to check out what you've got to say, please show me where the links are as I'm not gonna go thru the whole forum looking for them. Also I think u may need to show why all my evidence is not worth anything or why yours is better.

Evidence won;t do for that you need to construct an argument. In this context an argument about why your killing of civilians, mass murder etc is morally acceptable and why Hamas is not. I'm sure there are many ways of doing this

My own view is you are both as bad as each other. the only difference is you lot are better armed and so do more damage. You are just as much terrorists as they are. as I say calls 'em as I sees 'em

Originally Posted by Midas

I more than suspect that the Palestinian people could well be saying that about Israel Danielle!

I know it's your country and you feel you need to defend it, but you do really need to get a much wider perspective on the very complex set of issues involved here. Nothing is one-sided, and neither I nor anyone else are saying that Hamas are right, however if you provoke someone enough, they'll bite back, and this is what Palestine is doing to Israel.

Open your eyes a bit and try to look at this from the viewpoint that the rest of the world has; it doesn't necessitate being disloyal to Israel to do so.

no they can't say it.
cause when you bomb your neighbours for 8 years and they don't attack for so long, it's the best neighbours you can get, comparing to them !
they bombed us for 8 years and did alot of terror acts,
we gave them the chance for peace for 8 years-
and the way they act is throwing on us missiles.

i don't care about my country honestly.
i care about justice.
and if there's so much unjustice i can't ignore from it!
the wrold see only what the media shows it.
but i see what's really happening. i see al jaseera, rammatan and alot other. i see israeli news, i see UK news, america's news.
if someone don't have wide prespective it's really not me.

Originally Posted by Danielle..

no they can't say it.
cause when you bomb your neighbours for 8 years and they don't attack for so long, it's the best neighbours you can get, comparing to them !
they bombed us for 8 years and did alot of terror acts,
we gave them the chance for peace for 8 years-
and the way they act is throwing on us missiles.

i don't care about my country honestly.
i care about justice.
and if there's so much unjustice i can't ignore from it!
the wrold see only what the media shows it.
but i see what's really happening. i see al jaseera, rammatan and alot other. i see israeli news, i see UK news, america's news.
if someone don't have wide prespective it's really not me.

Justice, interesting choice of words when defending THE ILLEGAL occupation of land

Originally Posted by Danielle..

no they can't say it.
cause when you bomb your neighbours for 8 years and they don't attack for so long, it's the best neighbours you can get, comparing to them !
they bombed us for 8 years and did alot of terror acts,
we gave them the chance for peace for 8 years-
and the way they act is throwing on us missiles.

i don't care about my country honestly.
i care about justice.
and if there's so much unjustice i can't ignore from it!
the wrold see only what the media shows it.
but i see what's really happening. i see al jaseera, rammatan and alot other. i see israeli news, i see UK news, america's news.
if someone don't have wide prespective it's really not me.

Danielle your government has admitted they bombed the UN site needlessly. They even apologised for it.

They have also admitted to using the BANNED phospherous bombs. They now say they 'have permission'. Quite WHO would give permission to use a weapon BANNED under the Geneva Convention I don't know.

That aside there has been no explanation as yet about the 4 small children left with their dead mothers for DAYS, despite the IDF knowing they were there yet they did not let either UN or Red Cross aid workers get to them until they chose.

Also there was a very enlightening slip from Tzipi Livni; she said "Gaza is the obstacle....I mean the Gaza conflict is the obstacle to a Palestinian state."

Hmmm....a freudian slip perhaps? After all we all know that Israel has long since wanted the Gaza land for themselves.

Also - what 'conflict'? Israel has been calling it a war since it started; suddenly...around the time many start calling for Israel to be charged with War Crimes....they decide to downgrade the 'war' to a 'conflict'. It's one of those incidents that make you go hmmmmm.......

Originally Posted by Marxist Nutter

Justice, interesting choice of words when defending THE ILLEGAL occupation of land

Illegal? Hardly. Or are we going to play the game of who originally had the land first?

Originally Posted by Spades

Illegal? Hardly. Or are we going to play the game of who originally had the land first?

The borders of Israel as defined during its establishment in 1947 and again after the 1949 armistice did not include the Gaza Strip as part of Israel. Exactly the same applied after the 1967 war; Gaza was not and never has been a legal part of Israel.

These borders are the ones where Barack Obama and the Saudi Peace Plan would like to see Israel withdraw to. In addition to this, the plan wants a new Palestinian State to be contiguous between the West Bank and Gaza - i.e., joined together - however as this would entail cutting Israel in half I somehow can't see it happening.

Originally Posted by Marxist Nutter

No i'm happy to check out what you've got to say, please show me where the links are as I'm not gonna go thru the whole forum looking for them. Also I think u may need to show why all my evidence is not worth anything or why yours is better.

Evidence won;t do for that you need to construct an argument. In this context an argument about why your killing of civilians, mass murder etc is morally acceptable and why Hamas is not. I'm sure there are many ways of doing this

My own view is you are both as bad as each other. the only difference is you lot are better armed and so do more damage. You are just as much terrorists as they are. as I say calls 'em as I sees 'em

Well.. so much inoccent people died because the Hamas is using them as their human shields. don't believe?
YouTube - Hamas - Human Shield Confession
and from arab news......:
YouTube - Human Shields - Hamas in action
and more:
YouTube - hamas using boy as human shield
and more.............
YouTube - Terrorists Using Civilians as Human Shields
and this is the notice they get from the IDF to evacuate before bombing..
YouTube - Israeli planes throw flyers on Gaza: "Leave your houses"

what you need more? i'll give it to you. really!

Originally Posted by Marxist Nutter

Justice, interesting choice of words when defending THE ILLEGAL occupation of land

No....... read my thread No such thing as Palestine
and than I want to hear your comment.

Originally Posted by Danielle..

No....... read my thread No such thing as Palestine
and than I want to hear your comment.

So you don't think there should be a palestine, but its okay for israel to exist? Hardly fair. Palestine has as much right to have a recognised country status as Israel.

Originally Posted by Trouble43

So you don't think there should be a palestine, but its okay for israel to exist? Hardly fair. Palestine has as much right to recognised country status as Israel.

it's not what I said so don't twist it.
I'm saying that some people are justifying the terror that the palestinians does with the lame excuse their trying to get back their motherland
so in this thread there's proofs for this claim.
I think that anyone has the right to be exist,
And because of that i'm showing the world that their claims can't even be true.
there's no jstify to the things they have done, and their lame excuses to do that isn't true either.

Originally Posted by Danielle..

Well.. so much inoccent people died because the Hamas is using them as their human shields. don't believe?
YouTube - Hamas - Human Shield Confession
and from arab news......:
YouTube - Human Shields - Hamas in action
and more:
YouTube - hamas using boy as human shield
and more.............
YouTube - Terrorists Using Civilians as Human Shields
and this is the notice they get from the IDF to evacuate before bombing..
YouTube - Israeli planes throw flyers on Gaza: "Leave your houses"

what you need more? i'll give it to you. really!

I never said they don't use human shields, but where is all this evidence that disproves my evidence of the torture, denial of human rights and murder of far more civilians by Israel (The terrorist state)?? Huh?

Originally Posted by Marxist Nutter

I never said they don't use human shields, but where is all this evidence that disproves my evidence of the torture, denial of human rights and murder of far more civilians by Israel (The terrorist state)?? Huh?

You claim we kill inoccent people.
So I brought this, to show you, we are trying to prevent it.
We call this people before bombing, we send flyers with our planes..
It's not out fault that inoccent people is dying. it's the Hamas fault.
Everyone can blame us on "War crimes" but when you'll investigate this deeply, you'll see that it's a lie, and it's just the palestinians propoganda!

Originally Posted by Danielle..

You claim we kill inoccent people.
So I brought this, to show you, we are trying to prevent it.
We call this people before bombing, we send flyers with our planes..
It's not out fault that inoccent people is dying. it's the Hamas fault.
Everyone can blame us on "War crimes" but when you'll investigate this deeply, you'll see that it's a lie, and it's just the palestinians propoganda!

Why use illegal weapons of torture then? Why cut off water to civilian towns then? Yes they use human shields but ISRael blatantly targets civilians as well, becoz you don't really make the distinction between innocent people and hamas, thus you are the same as Hamas! I mean there is masses of proof that Israel target civillian towns now don't tell me Hamas create whole towns and communities just to make Israel look bad for bombing them!!!

Originally Posted by Marxist Nutter

Why use illegal weapons of torture then? Why cut off water to civilian towns then? Yes they use human shields but ISRael blatantly targets civilians as well, becoz you don't really make the distinction between innocent people and hamas, thus you are the same as Hamas! I mean there is masses of proof that Israel target civillian towns now don't tell me Hamas create whole towns and communities just to make Israel look bad for bombing them!!!

first of all don't you ever dare comparing me to the Hamas. you got it?? never!
I don't encourge killing of inoccent people, doesn't matter if they arab or swedish or american or whatever.
everyone has the right to live peacefuly!

the damages caused because of the Hamas. they lunching missiles, shooting and hiding in houses of inoccent people, schools, hospitals!
we try to not kill inoccent people but with all the respect - when someone trying to kill you- you have all the rights to protect yourself!
and about this "illeagle weapons" I found a really intresting article for you :

However, this charge has been disputed by the International Red Cross, which stated that it had no evidence to suggest that white phosphorus is being used improperly or illegally by Israel. As the AP reports:

“In some of the strikes in Gaza it’s pretty clear that phosphorus was used,” [Peter] Herby told The Associated Press. “But it’s not very unusual to use phosphorus to create smoke or illuminate a target. We have no evidence to suggest it’s being used in any other way.” …
Herby said that using phosphorus to illuminate a target or create smoke is legitimate under international law, and that there was no evidence the Jewish state was intentionally using phosphorus in a questionable way, such as burning down buildings or consciously putting civilians at risk.

White phosphorus has, however, been used as a weapon against civilians during this conflict… by Hamas. On Tuesday a mortar shell fired from Gaza into Israel contained white phosphorus. As the regional council’s security chief said: “the potential danger of using such a rocket is enormous. It is far more dangerous than other Qassam rockets and mortal shells. This is an escalation in the type of explosives the Palestinians use on civilians.”


enjoy!

Originally Posted by Danielle..

first of all don't you ever dare comparing me to the Hamas. you got it?? never!
I don't encourge killing of inoccent people, doesn't matter if they arab or swedish or american or whatever.
everyone has the right to live peacefuly!

the damages caused because of the Hamas. they lunching missiles, shooting and hiding in houses of inoccent people, schools, hospitals!
we try to not kill inoccent people but with all the respect - when someone trying to kill you- you have all the rights to protect yourself!
and about this "illeagle weapons" I found a really intresting article for you :

However, this charge has been disputed by the International Red Cross, which stated that it had no evidence to suggest that white phosphorus is being used improperly or illegally by Israel. As the AP reports:

“In some of the strikes in Gaza it’s pretty clear that phosphorus was used,” [Peter] Herby told The Associated Press. “But it’s not very unusual to use phosphorus to create smoke or illuminate a target. We have no evidence to suggest it’s being used in any other way.” …
Herby said that using phosphorus to illuminate a target or create smoke is legitimate under international law, and that there was no evidence the Jewish state was intentionally using phosphorus in a questionable way, such as burning down buildings or consciously putting civilians at risk.

White phosphorus has, however, been used as a weapon against civilians during this conflict… by Hamas. On Tuesday a mortar shell fired from Gaza into Israel contained white phosphorus. As the regional council’s security chief said: “the potential danger of using such a rocket is enormous. It is far more dangerous than other Qassam rockets and mortal shells. This is an escalation in the type of explosives the Palestinians use on civilians.”


enjoy!

Interesting report thanks for this. Do note that lack of evidence does not exonerate Israel and there are still agencies that claim they do use these weapons and there are cases of Palestinians being burned by phosphorous rockets that should perhaps be explained (contained in report you quote also see human rights watch) so this really proves very little - we know Israel lies about its nukes for example and is illegally occupying arab lands.

I still don't see any moral justification. Hamas could claim they defend themselves from your attacks (with less weapons and so cannot target as well as you can and yet Israel stll kills loads of innocens despite sophisticated targeting systems). They could also claim thy are fighting against the illegal occupation of land and subordination by a foreign poower. As I said before you can both jusify your horrendous actions but neither side can convince me they have no blood on their hands or that the other side is morally worse.

The issue is weapons. Israel has more so I see give more weapons to Hamas - make it fair at least and even the score! You guys fight it out but let it be a fair fight!

Originally Posted by Marxist Nutter

Interesting report thanks for this. Do note that lack of evidence does not exonerate Israel and there are still agencies that claim they do use these weapons and there are cases of Palestinians being burned by phosphorous rockets that should perhaps be explained (contained in report you quote also see human rights watch) so this really proves very little - we know Israel lies about its nukes for example and is illegally occupying arab lands.

I still don't see any moral justification. Hamas could claim they defend themselves from your attacks (with less weapons and so cannot target as well as you can and yet Israel stll kills loads of innocens despite sophisticated targeting systems). They could also claim thy are fighting against the illegal occupation of land and subordination by a foreign poower. As I said before you can both jusify your horrendous actions but neither side can convince me they have no blood on their hands or that the other side is morally worse.

The issue is weapons. Israel has more so I see give more weapons to Hamas - make it fair at least and even the score! You guys fight it out but let it be a fair fight!

I'm not trying to say we didn't kill inoccent people-
I'm trying to say that we are truely tried to prevent it.
but the Hamas screwed their people and they using them as human shields..! that's why so many inoccent people are dying..
if the world would understand it and try to destroy the Hamas instead believe to the palestinians unrealistic propoganda, maybe the world whould have try to help fighting terror instead fighting the wrong people
the people who is occupiyng Israel illeagaly it's actually the "Palestinians"
please check the thread I wroter named "No such thing as Palestine"
you'll find there also the answer to what you wrote about "stealing the palestinians motherland"

here, i'll make it easier for you:
http://www.politic.co.uk/israel/1177...palestine.html

Originally Posted by Danielle..

the people who is occupiyng Israel illeagaly it's actually the "Palestinians"
please check the thread I wroter named "No such thing as Palestine"
you'll find there also the answer to what you wrote about "stealing the palestinians motherland"

Bible is not a good source of historical data imo. So if my ancestors millions of years ago lived in Africa (or so I believed facts not really being the issue here, just faith) , me and my mates could kick all the people out and start our own nation of Africa by your perverted zionist logic then>?

Originally Posted by Marxist Nutter

Bible is not a good source of historical data imo. So if my ancestors millions of years ago lived in Africa (or so I believed facts not really being the issue here, just faith) , me and my mates could kick all the people out and start our own nation of Africa by your perverted zionist logic then>?

it's not only sources from bible.
there's alot of historical facts too, if you read it all - you would have known

do I see generalization in here?? so every Isralian is a perverted zionist? or maybe you my friend.. have a little problem called racism? (:

Originally Posted by Danielle..

it's not only sources from bible.
there's alot of historical facts too, if you read it all - you would have known

do I see generalization in here?? so every Isralian is a perverted zionist? or maybe you my friend.. have a little problem called racism? (:

No the logic of the argument

is if I felt that I had roots in Africa then I could take over the place with all my mates. This is the logic of Zionism (this is what happened in Israel) and it is perverted and you defend it. You are the one that accused me of being an arab and was racist earlier in this thread. You Hypocrite - disgusting! just coz your argument fails

Also no such thing as historical facts especially that far back.

Originally Posted by Marxist Nutter

No the logic of the argument

is if I felt that I had roots in Africa then I could take over the place with all my mates. This is the logic of Zionism (this is what happened in Israel) and it is perverted and you defend it. You are the one that accused me of being an arab and was racist earlier in this thread. You Hypocrite - disgusting! just coz your argument fails

Also no such thing as historical facts especially that far back.

i talk about 60 years ago. what's far in that?
before we came and got Israel,
it was occupy by the british.
the british let the "palestinians" to be in Israel.
IT DOESN'T MEAN THEY OWN IT DIDN'T IT?
compare to them, the british GAVE US ISRAEL, and let the jews own it!
and the "palestinians" excuse is that they have historical connection to Israel. how come??
there's no such thing "palestinians"- they are just rejected arab that related to other arab countries.
they can't have historical connection to Israel because of the simple fact that... 1. the people who lived in Israel that they claim they are this people is the pilistinines.. the pilistinines was redhair, sat on the borders of Israel shore - and they were from earuop.
this "palestinians" are ARAB . they have arab extraction and not europian one.
this pilistinines disappeard 1600 years before Jesus was born!!
they can't be them even if they'll really want to.
2. they also call themselves palestinians cause when Rome occupie Israel it called it "Provincia Palestina" on the name of the pilistinins that was 1600 years before Jesus died. so because of that, they call themselves palestinians.
butttt if rome would call Israel "provincia swedish"
does it make this "palestinains" swedish?
NOPE .

and where the hell was I an hypocrite? show me. I can't find it =\

Originally Posted by Danielle..

i talk about 60 years ago. what's far in that?
before we came and got Israel,
it was occupy by the british.
the british let the "palestinians" to be in Israel.
IT DOESN'T MEAN THEY OWN IT DIDN'T IT?
compare to them, the british GAVE US ISRAEL, and let the jews own it!
and the "palestinians" excuse is that they have historical connection to Israel. how come??
there's no such thing "palestinians"- they are just rejected arab that related to other arab countries.
they can't have historical connection to Israel because of the simple fact that... 1. the people who lived in Israel that they claim they are this people is the pilistinines.. the pilistinines was redhair, sat on the borders of Israel shore - and they were from earuop.
this "palestinians" are ARAB . they have extraction and not europian one.
this pilistinines disappeard 1600 years before Jesus was born!!
they can't be them even if they'll really want to.
2. they also call themselves palestinians cause when Rome occupie Israel it called it "Provincia Palestina" on the name of the pilistinins that was 1600 years before Jesus died. so because of that, they call themselves palestinians.
butttt if rome would call Israel "provincia swedish"
does it make this "palestinains" swedish?
NOPE .

Indeed but how does that help your case?

Most of the population of Israel have no historical links at all (they just think they got some right to live there despite being born in the USA or else where coz of their religion), where as the Palestinians do, generations that have lived on that land

What about international law??? Well we know Israel doesn't give a **** about that coz you are a terrorist state

I assume all Members have read the Rules ... especially the first one . (http://www.politic.co.uk/rules-guide...rum-rules.html)

Originally Posted by Danielle..

and where the hell was I an hypocrite? show me. I can't find it =\

This is what you called MN

have a little problem called racism?

and here

but I guess you are so anti-israeli or even an arab that you wouldn't believe.

Ring any bells?

That is why he called you a hypocrit. You defend the indefensible actions of Israel's government and military and then call someone these names and make personal accusations because they disagree with you. Not clever. There is no need for personal insults or accusations. We can just stick to the facts.

you'll see that it's a lie, and it's just the palestinians propoganda!

I did want to ask about this though. You see Israel has now admitted a lot of what it was denying before. So how can that be 'palestinians propoganda'? Just curious - unless you're saying the Palestinians have...what? Covertly taken over the Israeli government? Unlikely. Brainwashed them into admitting stuff? Hmm....again unlikely. Drugged them or got them drunk and then told them what to say? Okay, VERY far fetched. But you see what I'm getting at? How can this all be palestinian propoganda when your own government is now admitting to it?

Oh and can we have a recap of numbers of casualties while we're at it? Yes, lets.......

Palestine: current war
1,300 dead (400 of which are women and children)
5,340 injured (no numbers available on how many are women and children)

Israel: current war
13 dead (3 of which are civilians; 4 IDF by 'friendly fire')


Palestine: casualties over last 8 years
5,389 killed (194 women and 995 children)
32,770 injured (3,530 were permanently disabled)

Additionally 220 injured palestinians went on to die at the Israeli checkpoints whilst waiting to cross. So the actual total dead is 5,609.


Israel: casualties over last 8 years
24 (16 civilians within Israel; the rest in Jewish settled Gaza; again no numbers available on women and children casualties).


But then Israel bombed a fruit market during the recent war - maybe they thought the Gazans would start throwing lemons. Check link:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=EzGLivazH...

This clip is deeply disturbing, but I think it shows why so many of us over here are so full of disbelief at Israel's actions. The pictures of dead, injured and terrified children are the worst; but it shows that no one is lying about these little ones suffering at the hands of Israel. Some are just babies, others are toddlers - even the one of the boy standing in front of the Israeli tank can't be more than thirteen; is he launching a rocket? No, he is throwing a rock. Showing defiance. But I do wonder what happened to him.....

http://tw.youtube.com/watch?v=HOFRtqEYeR...

However I think you can then understand Danielle, on seeing all this information, why people like MN, me and many others around the world are so angry at Israel.

Originally Posted by Marxist Nutter

Indeed but how does that help your case?

Most of the population of Israel have no historical links at all (they just think they got some right to live there despite being born in the USA or else where coz of their religion), where as the Palestinians do, generations that have lived on that land

What about international law??? Well we know Israel doesn't give a **** about that coz you are a terrorist state

the only terrorists are the Hamas and I wish they'll do to you what they did to us so you'll have a little brain to see what's really happening!
shame on you!

and non generations lived there, if you read the book of mark twain on his trip to Israel at 1846 he wrote he saw just swamps and deasices and not arab people \ palestinians \ villages!!

and the fact we got the country from the british, and the arab didn't - make it our's, not their's!
and by the way even in the arabs bible (koran) I can give you proofs that it's written Israel belongs to us!!
even in their bible!!!! what can you say about that?! huh?