I welcome contact between the IRA and Hamas. The IRA has just been through one of the most successful peace negotiations since the end of WW2. Hundreds of lives have been saved by the Good Friday Agreement, millions of pounds worth of property prevented from being blown up. Following the IRA London bombings of the 1990s German and Japanese banks threatened to withdraw from the City of London, which would have cost the economy millions in tax receipts, money now invested in schools and the NHS.

So all power to the IRA and Sinn Féin's elbow. People like Gerry Adams and Martin McGuinness should be locked in a room with the Hamas and the Israeli leadership and not let out until Hamas and Israel have learnt everything there is to know about the Northern Ireland peace process.

Of course, right-wing Jews who wish to keep their boots on Palestinian necks, and continue their vile behaviour towards Palestinians, are terrified of the 'Good Friday disease' spreading to the Middle East. So it's very much in their interests prevent any Irish-Palestinian contact. It's up to normal, decent people to tell these violent, uncivilized Jews where to stick their war-mongery.

Bah, not surprised, the IRA and Hamas are all bastards and thugs. The Peace process, IMO, only came about because both sides lost popular support, and realised that they simply could not defeat one another militarily. Hamas unfortunately is never going to back down with the current leadership, their members are willing to die for their cause, even if they achieve nothing but killing innocents. IMO Israel should improve relations with Fatah, which they've been doing, and completely isolate Hamas. Hamas clearly has no intention of ever signing a peace deal that doesn't involve the destruction of Israel and its Jews.

Originally Posted by DCFGS3

Bah, not surprised, the IRA and Hamas are all bastards and thugs. The Peace process, IMO, only came about because both sides lost popular support, and realised that they simply could not defeat one another militarily. Hamas unfortunately is never going to back down with the current leadership, their members are willing to die for their cause, even if they achieve nothing but killing innocents. IMO Israel should improve relations with Fatah, which they've been doing, and completely isolate Hamas. Hamas clearly has no intention of ever signing a peace deal that doesn't involve the destruction of Israel and its Jews.

Actually it was not popular support but over a hundred billion in bribes from the Clinton administration and the EU that bought the terrorists off. Northern Ireland is now another Switzerland with most people living in the countryside millionaires. It is the only country on the planet which gives people grants to replace their dwellings- some of them only twenty years old! There is no recession in Northern Ireland and business is booming.

As to Hamas, Operation Cast Lead failed through an unreformed IDF and a government which could not make up it's mind what to do from day to day and made a mess for little result. It should have consisted of taking out the entire Hamas leadership most of whom were hiding out beneath a hospital in a bunker. After that the return of Fatah could have been fascilitated through Israel from the West Bank, they know where Hamas live and could have finished them off.

Originally Posted by sarasara

As to Hamas, Operation Cast Lead failed through an unreformed IDF and a government which could not make up it's mind what to do from day to day and made a mess for little result. It should have consisted of taking out the entire Hamas leadership most of whom were hiding out beneath a hospital in a bunker. After that the return of Fatah could have been facilitated through Israel from the West Bank, they know where Hamas live and could have finished them off.

I don't blame the Israeli Government or military, IMO they're one of the best in the world operating under shocking conditions, but what would have happened if the IDF had bombed that hospital? Even if they had wiped out the Hamas leadership, they're would have been widespread condemnation, and you still have the problem of many violent, radical, heavily-armed militants running around Gaza. The solution in the Middle East, IMO, relies on Israel conducting publicised negotiations with Fatah, ending with some kind of peace deal with Fatah, therefore showing the people of Gaza that peace is possible if they're willing to compromise, and hopefully convince them to overthrow Hamas.

Israel is a despotic nation that has lost all credibility - that last little adventure during the Gaza incursion removed all sympathy for the Israeli situation amongst thinking humanitarians!

How sad to think that just half a century after a facist dictator tried to wipe the Jewish people off the face of the planet, the country that was born from the aftermath of the Holocaust is mirroring that event!

Originally Posted by enginetorque

Israel is a despotic nation that has lost all credibility - that last little adventure during the Gaza incursion removed all sympathy for the Israeli situation amongst thinking humanitarians!

How sad to think that just half a century after a facist dictator tried to wipe the Jewish people off the face of the planet, the country that was born from the aftermath of the Holocaust is mirroring that event!

Israel's split. On the one hand there are the humanitarian, often socialist, original kibbutznik Jews and their descendent: stuffed full of European and Slavic civilization, wanting to live with the Palestinians in peace, prepared to compromise but also willing to fight like devils when their backs are against the wall. Daniel Barenboim's a good example.

Then there are the Zionists - basically fascists - and the new immigrants from the US. They're at the forefront of the settlement movement. Often they're right-wing religious maniacs - a sort of Jewish version of Sarah Palin - who believe it's their (literally) God-given right to steal Palestinian land and slaughter Palestinians.

The secret of any deal is to isolate the latter. They need to be got in a pincer movement with the moderate Arab states, the US, moderate Jews, world opinion, and a united Palestinian opposition committed to a dual state solution all ranged against them, coming from different angles. It's assembling that pincer movement and setting it going which is Obama's and Clinton's main job now. I think they could do it.

The Zionists know all this so their top priority is to disrupt that potential alliance. Hamas, for example, is a child of their creation. They will try, at all costs, to keep the Palestinians fighting each other. They breath a sigh of relief each time DinnerJacket says something stupid about Israel.

Israel is fighting enemies all around it, the ultra-Zionist groups that form are in response to Palestinian terrorism, just as Hamas is a response to perceived Israeli aggression. Except unlike the Zionists, Hamas wants to completely obliterate its enemies, the Zionists would be happy with a palestinian state as long as it's kept in check. If Hamas was willing to give up arms, recognise Israel and agree to join peace talks, real progress could be made.

Originally Posted by DCFGS3

Israel is fighting enemies all around it, the ultra-Zionist groups that form are in response to Palestinian terrorism, just as Hamas is a response to perceived Israeli aggression. Except unlike the Zionists, Hamas wants to completely obliterate its enemies, the Zionists would be happy with a palestinian state as long as it's kept in check. If Hamas was willing to give up arms, recognise Israel and agree to join peace talks, real progress could be made.

Oh come on. You're surely not claiming Hamas is morally inferior to the Zionists? Hamas fires rockets at Israeli housewives out doing the shopping, the Zionists drop phospherous on Palestinian children playing in the gutter. No fair-minded person can claim one activity is 'better' than the other.

The Hamas 'obliterate the Zionist entity' stuff is just rhetoric. All resistance movements produce overblown propaganda statements to stiffen the backbones of their young fighters. The IRA did the same, and such statements were quietly forgotten once serious negotiations began.

Originally Posted by DCFGS3

Israel is fighting enemies all around it, the ultra-Zionist groups that form are in response to Palestinian terrorism, just as Hamas is a response to perceived Israeli aggression. Except unlike the Zionists, Hamas wants to completely obliterate its enemies, the Zionists would be happy with a palestinian state as long as it's kept in check. If Hamas was willing to give up arms, recognise Israel and agree to join peace talks, real progress could be made.

It's time the USA came off the fence and gave the Israeli's a 'bollucking' anyway - but no - I won't have it that the Zionists have a case at all - Israel is illegally occupying lands regardless of that - has a huge arsenal of US supplied weaponry and has turned into the Nazi tormenter that invoked the creation of Israel (which was probably a mistake in hindsight)!

I don't hold with 'God given right' etc - if every oppressed ethinic group was able to claim that, then the world map would look very different!

Oh and before you start - no I'm not anti semitic - just anti Israel!

Originally Posted by Balthazar

Oh come on. You're surely not claiming Hamas is morally inferior to the Zionists? Hamas fires rockets at Israeli housewives out doing the shopping, the Zionists drop phospherous on Palestinian children playing in the gutter. No fair-minded person can claim one activity is 'better' than the other.

The Hamas 'obliterate the Zionist entity' stuff is just rhetoric. All resistance movements produce overblown propaganda statements to stiffen the backbones of their young fighters. The IRA did the same, and such statements were quietly forgotten once serious negotiations began.

Yes, the Israeli military is morally superior to the Hamas thugs. Why? Because Hamas intentionally targets civilians in Israel and they hide among civilians in Gaza. Israel does not target civilians. Not only from a moral perspective, there is absolutely no point for Israel to target civilians, in fact it works against them. Civilian deaths in the Gaza conflict were simply those caught up in the crossfire, in fact the situation is not helped by Hamas hiding amongst them, as Sarasara pointed out, their leadership hid under a hospital and their fighters launch rockets from playgrounds and football fields.

As for enginetorque's comments, Israel is not a dictatorship, nor has it in anyway attempted to genocide the Arab population, so your comparison to the Nazi party is laughable. It is a nation under siege, and as such has the right to defend itself, which is not God given, nor US given, it is the right of all nations.

As for Hamas' policy toward Israel, it is serious about calling for its destruction. If it wasn't, it would have recognised Israel as a state, yet it does not, nor has it come to the negotiation table.

Originally Posted by DCFGS3

Yes, the Israeli military is morally superior to the Hamas thugs. Why? Because Hamas intentionally targets civilians in Israel and they hide among civilians in Gaza. Israel does not target civilians.

Really? I have seen footage of Israeli tanks going after young children, or don't children count.

Morally, Israel is no better than Hamas. Worse in my opinion.

Originally Posted by Kiwi 1691

Really? I have seen footage of Israeli tanks going after young children, or don't children count.

Morally, Israel is no better than Hamas. Worse in my opinion.

Why were there children there in the first place? The definition of civilian becomes very grey in these situations, virtually any youth over 12 could be a Hamas fighter, and as I said, Hamas enjoys hiding among civilians, so it can accuse Israel of attacking civilians when it tries to defend itself. Did you see the tanks firing on the children? No, in fact they most likely trying to scare them into hiding, but Hamas has fired on children, it's rockets land in backyards in Israel and have hit kindergartens and schools.

Originally Posted by DCFGS3

Why were there children there in the first place? The definition of civilian becomes very grey in these situations, virtually any youth over 12 could be a Hamas fighter, and as I said, Hamas enjoys hiding among civilians, so it can accuse Israel of attacking civilians when it tries to defend itself. Did you see the tanks firing on the children? No, in fact they most likely trying to scare them into hiding, but Hamas has fired on children, it's rockets land in backyards in Israel and have hit kindergartens and schools.

What, don't civilians have the right to walk around in the street now. The children were walking around in the streets.

Originally Posted by Kiwi 1691

What, don't civilians have the right to walk around in the street now. The children were walking around in the streets.

Not in a goddamn warzone. If there are tanks nearby, children should not be.

Originally Posted by DCFGS3

Israel does not target civilians.

You are funny. Just a few days ago Moshe Ya'alon, the Israeli vice-prime minister, cancelled a trip to Britain because he feared arrest on war crimes charges when he stepped off the jet at Heathrow. He isn't some minor Mosad functionary but the Israeli vice-prime minister! Story here.

Then there was the case of Israeli retired general Doron Almog who in 2005 actually refused to get off the plane at Heathrow. He sat in his seat as all the other passengers disembarked! He'd been tipped off that British police were waiting for him in the terminal building with an arrest warrant on war crimes charges. He sat on the tarmac, the stewardesses watching him curiously, and eventually the plane flew him back to Israel.

So we're dealing with a rogue state whose high officials skulk within Israel's borders like John Wayne at the Alamo. It's an incredible situation and can only get worse as more and more states embed UN protocols in domestic statute.

The days when friends of Israel could play your game - pretend the Zionists are whiter than white while Hamas are all beastly terrorists - are long gone. But that's your problem. History's moved on without you.

Originally Posted by Balthazar

You are funny. Just a few days ago Moshe Ya'alon, the Israeli vice-prime minister, cancelled a trip to Britain because he feared arrest on war crimes charges when he stepped off the jet at Heathrow. He isn't some minor Mosad functionary but the Israeli vice-prime minister! Story here.

Then there was the case of Israeli retired general Doron Almog who in 2005 actually refused to get off the plane at Heathrow. He sat in his seat as all the other passengers disembarked! He'd been tipped off that British police were waiting for him in the terminal building with an arrest warrant on war crimes charges. He sat on the tarmac, the stewardesses watching him curiously, and eventually the plane flew him back to Israel.

So we're dealing with a rogue state whose high officials skulk within Israel's borders like John Wayne at the Alamo. It's an incredible situation and can only get worse as more and more states embed UN protocols in domestic statute.

The days when friends of Israel could play your game - pretend the Zionists are whiter than white while Hamas are all beastly terrorists - are long gone. But that's your problem. History's moved on without you.

And at the same time so would any Hamas leader be arrested on terror charges. Israel's war crimes do not stem from targeting civilians, they come from a perceived disregard for civilian lives. As I said, Israel does not waste its time and resources killing civilians, what reason has it? Instead civilian deaths come from targeting Hamas, who hides amongst civilians like rats.

Originally Posted by DCFGS3

And at the same time so would any Hamas leader be arrested on terror charges. Israel's war crimes do not stem from targeting civilians, they come from a perceived disregard for civilian lives. As I said, Israel does not waste its time and resources killing civilians, what reason has it? Instead civilian deaths come from targeting Hamas, who hides amongst civilians like rats.

Fatah and Hamas are the governors of the two regions of Palestine.

Fatah is not regarded as a terrorist organisation by Western Govt's


Hamas is regarded as a terrorist organisation by Western Govt's, but is not a terrorist organisation. They are like the freedom fighters in territories occupied by the Germans in WWII.

Originally Posted by DCFGS3

And at the same time so would any Hamas leader be arrested on terror charges.

There's the difference between us. If it could be proven that some wretched Hamas official fired, or authorised the firing of, rockets at Israeli civilians and he appeared on British territory I'd welcome the British police feeling his collar. War crimes are war crimes, whether committed by a Palestinian or a Jew. The law should treat both the same.

You, however, are an appeaser of Israeli war criminals. You're soft on some of the most disgusting criminals to walk the earth. You're seeking to dispense justice on the basis of ethnicity or skin pigmentation. Weird or what? And a recipe for keeping the Middle East conflict going for another 50 years.

Originally Posted by Kiwi 1691

Fatah and Hamas are the governors of the two regions of Palestine.

Fatah is not regarded as a terrorist organisation by Western Govt's


Hamas is regarded as a terrorist organisation by Western Govt's, but is not a terrorist organisation. They are like the freedom fighters in territories occupied by the Germans in WWII.

I said nothing of Fatah, who, while once being a terror organisation, has since become a new organisation, dedicated to peace. An example Hamas should follow.

Hamas is a terror organisation. It targets civilians, and in every definition of the word, that is terrorism. If it were a freedom fighting organisation, it would target only Israeli military interests and would not hide amongst civilians causing civilian casualties.

Originally Posted by Balthazar

There's the difference between us. If it could be proven that some wretched Hamas official fired, or authorised the firing of, rockets at Israeli civilians and he appeared on British territory I'd welcome the British police feeling his collar. War crimes are war crimes, whether committed by a Palestinian or a Jew. The law should treat both the same.

You, however, are an appeaser of Israeli war criminals. You're soft on some of the most disgusting criminals to walk the earth. You're seeking to dispense justice on the basis of ethnicity or skin pigmentation. Weird or what? And a recipe for keeping the Middle East conflict going for another 50 years.

Hamas does fire rockets, it builds these in workshops and trains its fighters in camps overseen by the leadership. The propaganda spewed by these leaders incites violence against Israel. Hamas is a terror organisation from the bottom to the highest echelons of its leadership. Having said that, it also operates as a civil governing body in Gaza, and a very effective one at that.

Explain how I have said anything about skin pigmentation or race in regards to this conflict. I am not intersted in protecting war criminals, however I do not support terrorists either. Hamas kills civilians as part of its war on Israel. Civilians do die because of Israeli retaliations, I'm not denying that, what I am saying is that Israel has no intention of killing civilians, it has no reason to. Which is worse, the targeted killing of civilians, who are, by the way, outside of the warzone; or the accidental killing of civilians in a warzone?

Originally Posted by DCFGS3

I said nothing of Fatah, who, while once being a terror organisation, has since become a new organisation, dedicated to peace. An example Hamas should follow.

Hamas is a terror organisation. It targets civilians, and in every definition of the word, that is terrorism. If it were a freedom fighting organisation, it would target only Israeli military interests and would not hide amongst civilians causing civilian casualties.

Then by your definition the Israeli army is a terrorist organisation.

There is no formal definition of the term terrorism to my knowledge.

A 30 January 1795 use of the word 'terrorism' in The Times, possibly the first appearance in English. The excerpt reads: "There exists more than one system to overthrow our liberty. Fanaticism has raised every passion; Royalism has not yet given up its hopes, and Terrorism feels bolder than ever."

The term "terrorism" comes from Latin terrere, "to frighten." The terror cimbricus was a panic and state of emergency in Rome in response to the approach of warriors of the Cimbri tribe in 105BC.

Originally Posted by Kiwi 1691

Then by your definition the Israeli army is a terrorist organisation.

There is no formal definition of the term terrorism to my knowledge.

Correct, this is, ironically, thanks to US objections to the proposed UN definition of terrorism. But both the US's and the UN's definitions both include targeting of civilians or civilian interests in order to achieve a political, religious or economic objective. The Israeli army is not guilty of terror under this definition, as it does not target civilians. Civilians die as a consequence of attacks against a militant enemy, and as I pointed out this is mostly Hamas's fault, but Israel does not target civilians as part of its strategy, and no-one has been able to give me a reason why they would. On the other hand, Hamas does target civilians to achieve its goals.

Originally Posted by DCFGS3

Correct, this is, ironically, thanks to US objections to the proposed UN definition of terrorism. But both the US's and the UN's definitions both include targeting of civilians or civilian interests in order to achieve a political, religious or economic objective. The Israeli army is not guilty of terror under this definition, as it does not target civilians. Civilians die as a consequence of attacks against a militant enemy, and as I pointed out this is mostly Hamas's fault, but Israel does not target civilians as part of its strategy, and no-one has been able to give me a reason why they would. On the other hand, Hamas does target civilians to achieve its goals.

Though Israel regularly deprives the civilians of food, how can you defend that.

Originally Posted by Kiwi 1691

Though Israel regularly deprives the civilians of food, how can you defend that.

Firstly, the blockade will only last as long Hamas continues waging war against Israel, their current predicament is from their state of war with Israel. Any other country would be expected to attack just as Israel did earlier, the fact Gaza is both unoccupied and not under attack from Israel, with the exception of denying Hamas weapons through its tunnels, is an example of leniency from Israel, considering rockets still come from inside Gaza.

Secondly, as I said earlier, what defines a civilian in Gaza is very shady territory. Women and young children of course, although women have been used in bombings before, but it is fairly reasonable to assume that almost all men over the age of 15 could be militants. The people within Gaza are heavily radicalised, both as a combination of Hamas propaganda and the fact that they do offer a stable, effective Government, and as such could be defined as enemies, while perhaps not combatants, certainly enemies.

Thirdly these people, civilian or not, elected Hamas as their government, well aware of their policy of war on Israel, this only strengthens the fact that the civilian population is the enemy of Israel. For all intents and purposes, Israel is at war with Gaza, as Gaza's government is Hamas, and Hamas elected by the people. Gaza is an enemy country, and denying supplies is an obvious tactic. Furthermore since tensions have cooled slightly, Israel has allowed some supplies in.

Basically, it's laughable to assume that one country under attack from another would allow supplies to its attacker, if it was a case of a dictator attacking without support of the populace, perhaps, but this is a democratically elected Government and a war supported by the people. A blockade would be standard strategy anywhere in the world.

Originally Posted by DCFGS3

Explain how I have said anything about skin pigmentation or race in regards to this conflict.

You're making excuses for one ethnic group - Jews - when they commit war crimes but condemning another ethnic group - Palestinians - when they commit war crimes. So you're moralising, in relation to war crimes, on the basis of ethnicity.

It's the old, old problem. The same happened in Northern Ireland. Each side committed disgusting acts while a little band of echoes sat on the sidelines, regurgitating propaganda, deploying weasel words, in an effort to make out that one side was less immoral than the other. It's pathetic. You're an appeaser of war criminals. Fair enough. Entirely up to you.

Incidentally, I'd be criticising you in exactly the same terms if you were some silly lefty making up excuses about Hamas lobbing rockets at Israeli housewives out shopping for aubergines.

Originally Posted by DCFGS3

what I am saying is that Israel has no intention of killing civilians

I know. That's why I'm laughing at you. You're playing little language games while kids get their limbs blown off.

Originally Posted by Balthazar

You're making excuses for one ethnic group - Jews - when they commit war crimes but condemning another ethnic group - Palestinians - when they commit war crimes. So you're moralising, in relation to war crimes, on the basis of ethnicity.

It's the old, old problem. The same happened in Northern Ireland. Each side committed disgusting acts while a little band of echoes sat on the sidelines, regurgitating propaganda, deploying weasel words, in an effort to make out that one side was less immoral than the other. It's pathetic. You're an appeaser of war criminals. Fair enough. Entirely up to you.

Incidentally, I'd be criticising you in exactly the same terms if you were some silly lefty making up excuses about Hamas lobbing rockets at Israeli housewives out shopping for aubergines.




I know. That's why I'm laughing at you. You're playing little language games while kids get their limbs blown off.

I have not said that Israel does not commit war crimes. The use of white phosphorus against Gaza was highly unethical, not to mention ineffective. What I have said is that the majority of war crimes brought against Israel, mostly to do with disregard for civilians, are at least partially Hamas's fault as they hide amongst civilians using them as shields. Hamas, in contrast to Israel, has no excuses for its war crimes, as it specifically targets civilians, these civilians are not accidentally killed by Hamas, they are intentionally targeted.

Now I'm not playing language games. This is a very basic difference between Hamas and Israel. Hamas kills civilians deliberately. It has a stated policy to kill civilians. Israel does not kill civilians deliberately. It has no policy to kill civilians. If Hamas had gunships and tanks, we would see far more civilian deaths, probably close to genocide, thankfully, they are restricted to rockets and mortars.

Originally Posted by DCFGS3

I have not said that Israel does not commit war crimes. The use of white phosphorus against Gaza was highly unethical, not to mention ineffective. What I have said is that the majority of war crimes brought against Israel, mostly to do with disregard for civilians, are at least partially Hamas's fault as they hide amongst civilians using them as shields. Hamas, in contrast to Israel, has no excuses for its war crimes, as it specifically targets civilians, these civilians are not accidentally killed by Hamas, they are intentionally targeted.

Now I'm not playing language games. This is a very basic difference between Hamas and Israel. Hamas kills civilians deliberately. It has a stated policy to kill civilians. Israel does not kill civilians deliberately. It has no policy to kill civilians. If Hamas had gunships and tanks, we would see far more civilian deaths, probably close to genocide, thankfully, they are restricted to rockets and mortars.

= more weasel words defending war criminals.

Originally Posted by Balthazar

= more weasel words defending war criminals.

Bah, you accuse me of weasel words and yet offer no opposing arguments. Clearly you have exhausted your own reasoning behind Israel's supposed aggression against Palestine. Israel defended itself against terrorists, plain and simple. The Palestinians have no-one to blame but themselves for supporting terror.

Originally Posted by DCFGS3

Bah, you accuse me of weasel words and yet offer no opposing arguments. Clearly you have exhausted your own reasoning behind Israel's supposed aggression against Palestine. Israel defended itself against terrorists, plain and simple. The Palestinians have no-one to blame but themselves for supporting terror.

Nah, if I catch a war criminal appeaser in the act it's far better to highlight their appeasement than get drawn into their buttock-clenched word games.

Originally Posted by Balthazar

Nah, if I catch a war criminal appeaser in the act it's far better to highlight their appeasement than get drawn into their buttock-clenched word games.

Ugh, how am I a war criminal appeaser?