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Israel, Victim or perpetrator?

This is a discussion on Israel, Victim or perpetrator? within the Israel / Hamas Tension forums, part of the Politics on War and Conflicts Forum category; RE TO YOU ALL: First DCFGS3 , I can agree with what you said. Second, Kiwi 1691 You make me ...

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    They are, they love their nukes more than America. They would have no problem at all pushing the button.

    They repeatedly threatened to use their nukes.

    Chirac threatens nuclear attack on states sponsoring terrorism - Europe, World - The Independent

    Chirac: Nuclear Response to Terrorism Is Possible - washingtonpost.com

    These articles show the hypocrisy of France, they LOVE state sponsored terrorism when they are the ones committing it.

    Sinking of the Rainbow Warrior - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia


    Israel threatening.

    Israel Threatens Iran Over Nuclear Research | Europe | Deutsche Welle | 22.01.2006


    Israel and France are the ones who threaten to use their nukes on others, so yes they are a threat to world peace.



    North Korea, is testing bombs. The best way to deal with them is diplomatically. Embargoing a nation led by a man who does not care about his people is a waste of time.

    How is Iran a threat? They don't even have nuclear power.
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    But technically its Iran's nuclear ambitions that are causing strife. IMO Iran would have no problem in nuking Israel, and Israel is similarly of this opinion, hence their first strike policy. Having said that, it's unlikely that they would use Nukes, conventional air strikes or low-yield Nuclear bunker busters is most likely. Israel isn't stupid. Also, Chirac isn't president anymore.

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    Quote Originally Posted by DCFGS3 View Post
    But technically its Iran's nuclear ambitions that are causing strife. IMO Iran would have no problem in nuking Israel, and Israel is similarly of this opinion, hence their first strike policy. Having said that, it's unlikely that they would use Nukes, conventional air strikes or low-yield Nuclear bunker busters is most likely. Israel isn't stupid. Also, Chirac isn't president anymore.
    Israel has a record of attacking other countries.

    Israel has nuclear weapons.

    Most people don't want to admit it but I think the record is clear that Israel is the destabilizing force in the Middle East.

    I actually don't blame countries like Iran wanting to maintain nuclear parity with a brutal apartheid regime like Israel in the area.
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    Quote Originally Posted by flash View Post
    Israel has a record of attacking other countries.
    No it doesn't.

    Israel has nuclear weapons.
    Probably.

    Most people don't want to admit it but I think the record is clear that Israel is the destabilizing force in the Middle East.
    Not really, it's the fact other countries hate Israel which is the destabalising force.

    I actually don't blame countries like Iran wanting to maintain nuclear parity with a brutal apartheid regime like Israel in the area.
    Israel isn't an apartheid regime...

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    Quote Originally Posted by DCFGS3 View Post
    No it doesn't.



    Probably.



    Not really, it's the fact other countries hate Israel which is the destabalising force.



    Israel isn't an apartheid regime...
    Wrong on all accounts but I don't want to turn this thread about nuclear weapons into a Middle East political discussion so I will pass on the opportunity to once again educate you on basic facts.

    If you want to dicuss Israel start another thread and if it is interesting enough I will inject some moral clarity.
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    Israel, Victim or perpetrator?

    Since its existence, Israel has been fighting terror and enemies in order to survive. These days, thanks to this war, Israel is largely safe. Hamas still poses a threat, as does Iran. However now Israel is being presented as the bad guy, the aggressor, which is frankly BS.

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    Agreed!

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    Israel is the aggressor, there is no doubt.


    Yes there are bad people on both sides, but Israel's actions has caused them to lose any moral position.
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    Quote Originally Posted by Kiwi 1691 View Post
    Israel is the aggressor, there is no doubt.


    Yes there are bad people on both sides, but Israel's actions has caused them to lose any moral position.
    Explain how exactly Israel is the aggressor if it's defending itself?

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    Quote Originally Posted by DCFGS3 View Post
    Explain how exactly Israel is the aggressor if it's defending itself?
    The actions that Israel takes is the cause of the fighting with the Palestianians.

    They have opressed the Palestianians for years, the oppression and occupation is the reason why so many Palestians hate Israel. This is also a reason why many Middle Eastern nations don't like Israel.
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    Quote Originally Posted by Kiwi 1691 View Post
    The actions that Israel takes is the cause of the fighting with the Palestianians.

    They have opressed the Palestianians for years, the oppression and occupation is the reason why so many Palestians hate Israel. This is also a reason why many Middle Eastern nations don't like Israel.
    Yet it was Palestine who was the aggressor, and continues to be. Israel needs to defend itself, you can't seriously expect Israel to just take rocket attacks, kidnappings and bombings.

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    Hamas, Islamic Jihad, Fatah (P.L.O.) and dozens of other Palestinian political groups have one objective.
    It is written into their charters.
    The destruction of the state of Israel.

    Israel are perfectly aware of this. They suffered the deaths of 6 million people in WW2 and they have vowed NEVER AGAIN.

    Israel have given land for peace in Gaza. The day they withdrew the rocket fire started. The Palestinians also destroyed the huge greenhouses the Israelis left them, which could have been used to feed their people.

    The Israel DEFENCE Force are there to ensure it is NEVER AGAIN.

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    Quote Originally Posted by DCFGS3 View Post
    Yet it was Palestine who was the aggressor, and continues to be. Israel needs to defend itself, you can't seriously expect Israel to just take rocket attacks, kidnappings and bombings.
    You ca't expect the palestinians to take subjugation and human rights abuses by an illegitimate occupying force.
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    Re to all

    RE TO BOTH DCFGS3 FLASH


    Flash I think you need to join the other debate topic as you are wrong about Israel several times, and this is not agenda is Nuclear weapons.


    And thank you DCFGS3 for enlightening him!

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    I agree too manily with your view on Israel a lot, but I will just like to question there miltiary force when figthing Hamas (which they have a rigth to do) but there was civlian causltes which could have been avoided.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Barry View Post
    Hamas, Islamic Jihad, Fatah (P.L.O.) and dozens of other Palestinian political groups have one objective.
    It is written into their charters.
    The destruction of the state of Israel.

    Israel are perfectly aware of this. They suffered the deaths of 6 million people in WW2 and they have vowed NEVER AGAIN.

    Israel have given land for peace in Gaza. The day they withdrew the rocket fire started. The Palestinians also destroyed the huge greenhouses the Israelis left them, which could have been used to feed their people.

    The Israel DEFENCE Force are there to ensure it is NEVER AGAIN.
    Excuse me but Israel did not even exist in WWII.

    As soon as the immigrants from Europe showed up the Israelis have been a destabilizing force in the Middle East.

    They have treated the Palestinians like crap and have been arrogant and very brutal. They have subjugated the Palestinians in order to make room for the European and Russian immigrant and that is not right in my book.

    As an American I tend to side with the underdogs so I understand why the Palestinians hate the Israelis and I also understand why they hate the US for giving the goddamn Israelis the weapon to kill the Palestinians.

    This map depicts the reason why I feel the goddamn Israelis are the aggressors:


    http://www.sott.net/image/image/s1/2...estine_map.jpg
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    Quote Originally Posted by The Earl Of Grey View Post
    RE TO BOTH DCFGS3 FLASH


    Flash I think you need to join the other debate topic as you are wrong about Israel several times, and this is not agenda is Nuclear weapons.


    And thank you DCFGS3 for enlightening him!
    I made a post on the thread.
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    Quote Originally Posted by JacquesMagique View Post
    You ca't expect the palestinians to take subjugation and human rights abuses by an illegitimate occupying force.
    They are not illegitimate, as the state of Israel was created by UN charter agreement.
    Defending forces in a war are allowed to annex land taken from an aggressor.

    Next!

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    Quote Originally Posted by Barry View Post
    They are not illegitimate, as the state of Israel was created by UN charter agreement.
    Defending forces in a war are allowed to annex land taken from an aggressor.

    Next!
    I wonder how many Israelis supporters in the US and the UK would like it if the UN came in and divided up their country so that millions of refugees and immigrants could come in and take over?

    I doubt very few but they seem to ignore the fact when it happened to the Palestinians. In fact they call the Palestinians terrorists because they oppose the brutal regime of the Israelis.

    I wonder how many US and UK Israeli supporters would like to be treated like the Palestinians? I wonder how many would like to be shoved into crowed concentration ghettos in order to make room for the Chosen Russian immigrants. They were chosen simply because of their religion and the Palestrinians were kicked out because they were not ethnically pure enough.

    To me it is very clear the Palestinians are freedom fighters in a brutal war created by yet another UN mess.

    The UN has no jurisdiction over me. I can't blame the Palestinians for feeling the same way. I can blame the Israelis for thinking they have some goddamn right to exist on land occupied by other people. Kind of reminds me of the way the Nazis felt at another time.
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    Quote Originally Posted by Barry View Post
    They are not illegitimate, as the state of Israel was created by UN charter agreement.
    So what, the UN approves of them. Did they ask the Palestinians before taking their land?

    I think not.


    Quote Originally Posted by Barry View Post
    Defending forces in a war are allowed to annex land taken from an aggressor.
    If someone occupied your home and killed your friends and family would you stand by and accept it?
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    Quote Originally Posted by Kiwi 1691 View Post
    So what, the UN approves of them. Did they ask the Palestinians before taking their land?
    You have no respect for the UN decision - it is not enough for you? Tough.

    Quote Originally Posted by Kiwi 1691 View Post
    If someone occupied your home and killed your friends and family would you stand by and accept it?
    I don't know, I'll let you know if and when it happens.

    ---------------------------------------------------

    You can't rewrite history.

    In the Israeli war of independence the Arabs told their people to leave the state of Israel, which they did. They were assured that the Arabs would destroy Israel and they would be allowed back in a short time. However the Arabs who invaded Israel immediately the country was approved by the UN, were defeated by the Israeli forces.
    60 years later the Arabs that were made "refugees" now live in cities and are a much larger number in population than previously.

    Israel also had refugees. Israelis living in Arab countries were all expelled in the war and there were 800,000 refugees that fled to Israel. Israel absorbed these refugees and put their losses behind them to build their new lives in Israel. (So, of course we don't hear anything about then now, or their loss of homes and possessions.)

    About the same number of Arabs made "refugee" camps (Now cities not tents) and have never returned to their own states. They have received huge amounts of money.

    A very large number of them have Jordanian or Egyptian nationality, they are only 'Palestinian' as a result of semantics and attempts to make them victims. 'Palestinians' thrive on their victim status.
    The Jordanians don't want these people in their country, because they will try to overthrow the Hashemite kingdom. The Syrians don't want them in their country, in fact, the Syrians slaughtered at least 3,000 in the Tel al-Zaatar massacre. (Nearly 3 times more than died in the Operation Cast Lead in 2007-8).

    Sadly the mainly Muslim Arabs (not forgetting some Christians) have not been absorbed and accepted and helped to build new lives in their new countries. Egypt and Jordan have been less than helpful in this respect. They have not been helped by their Muslim Brothers. They have been used as a tool by the Muslim Brotherhood, the P.L.O. and other groups to undermine and try to destroy the legal state of Israel.

    For a balanced view on this subject, I recommend the book "A beginner's Guide - the palestine - israeli conflict" co authored by Dan Cohn-Sherbok and Dawoud el-Alami. ISBN 1-85168-332-1. It gives half the book to a Jewish perspective and half the book to a Palestinian perspective.
    Last edited by Barry; 27-10-2009 at 11:14 PM. Reason: Corrected title of book

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    Quote Originally Posted by Barry View Post
    You have no respect for the UN decision - it is not enough for you? Tough.



    I don't know, I'll let you know if and when it happens.

    ---------------------------------------------------

    You can't rewrite history.

    In the Israeli war of independence the Arabs told their people to leave the state of Israel, which they did. They were assured that the Arabs would destroy Israel and they would be allowed back in a short time. However the Arabs who invaded Israel immediately the country was approved by the UN, were defeated by the Israeli forces.
    60 years later the Arabs that were made "refugees" now live in cities and are a much larger number in population than previously.

    Israel also had refugees. Israelis living in Arab countries were all expelled in the war and there were 800,000 refugees that fled to Israel. Israel absorbed these refugees and put their losses behind them to build their new lives in Israel. (So, of course we don't hear anything about then now, or their loss of homes and possessions.)

    About the same number of Arabs made "refugee" camps (Now cities not tents) and have never returned to their own states. They have received huge amounts of money.

    A very large number of them have Jordanian or Egyptian nationality, they are only 'Palestinian' as a result of semantics and attempts to make them victims. 'Palestinians' thrive on their victim status.
    The Jordanians don't want these people in their country, because they will try to overthrow the Hashemite kingdom. The Syrians don't want them in their country, in fact, the Syrians slaughtered at least 3,000 in the Tel al-Zaatar massacre. (Nearly 3 times more than died in the Operation Cast Lead in 2007-8).

    Sadly the mainly Muslim Arabs (not forgetting some Christians) have not been absorbed and accepted and helped to build new lives in their new countries. Egypt and Jordan have been less than helpful in this respect. They have not been helped by their Muslim Brothers. They have been used as a tool by the Muslim Brotherhood, the P.L.O. and other groups to undermine and try to destroy the legal state of Israel.

    For a balanced view on this subject, I recommend the book "the palestine - israeli conflict" co authored by Dan Cohn-Sherbok and Dawoud el-Alami. ISBN 1-85168-332-1. It gives half the book to a Jewish perspective and half the book to a Palestinian perspective.
    You can rationalize all that crap you want but the bottom line is that a bunch of European and later Russian refugees pushed out the Palestinians. Look at the map I posted earlier.

    The UN created the mess because of the post WWII guilt about the way the Jews were treated in Europe. They never bother to think that the Israelis would be just as brutal to the Palestinians as the Nazis were to the Jews.

    No decent person nowadays living in the US or the UK would want to be treated like a Palestinian so you can cut the crap about it being the fault of the Arabs for not absorbing the displaced people of the region. It is the fault of the Israelis for taking over the land and establishing a filthy apartheid theocracy that excluded Muslims and Christians from any substantial rights or real voice in the government. There are some minor elected Uncle Tom type positions held by the Palestinians but nothing with any real power.
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    Quote Originally Posted by flash View Post
    You can rationalize all that crap you want but the bottom line is that a bunch of European and later Russian refugees pushed out the Palestinians. Look at the map I posted earlier.

    The UN created the mess because of the post WWII guilt about the way the Jews were treated in Europe. They never bother to think that the Israelis would be just as brutal to the Palestinians as the Nazis were to the Jews.

    No decent person nowadays living in the US or the UK would want to be treated like a Palestinian so you can cut the crap about it fault of the Arabs for not absorbing the displaced people of the region. It is the fault of the Israelis for taking over the land and establishing a filthy apartheid theocracy that excluded Muslims and Christians from any substantial rights or real voice in the government. There are some minor elected Uncle Tom type positions held by the Palestinians but nothing with any real power.
    It's not often we agree on something Flash, but in this instance I'm with you 100%!
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    However dodgy Israel's creation was, it isn't actually the fault of Israel, that goes to the UK, US and UN.

    What your set of maps doesn't show Flash is the attempted invasions and terror attacks against Israel leading it to take that land to protect itself. Also I fail to see how Israel is an apartheid regime or how the Israelis are even close to treating the Palestinians like the Nazis did the Jews, last time I checked, there was no gas chambers or firing squads.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Barry View Post
    You have no respect for the UN decision - it is not enough for you? Tough.
    I have little respect for the UN. It is a corrupt organisation.

    It is also powerless because of the undying support that the USA has given to Israel. Mainly by vetoing many attempts by the UN to pass resolutions against Israel.

    They have put forward many resolutions about Israel.
    List of United Nations resolutions concerning Israel - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia


    Quote Originally Posted by Barry View Post
    You can't rewrite history.

    In the Israeli war of independence the Arabs told their people to leave the state of Israel, which they did. They were assured that the Arabs would destroy Israel and they would be allowed back in a short time. However the Arabs who invaded Israel immediately the country was approved by the UN, were defeated by the Israeli forces.
    60 years later the Arabs that were made "refugees" now live in cities and are a much larger number in population than previously.

    Israel also had refugees. Israelis living in Arab countries were all expelled in the war and there were 800,000 refugees that fled to Israel. Israel absorbed these refugees and put their losses behind them to build their new lives in Israel. (So, of course we don't hear anything about then now, or their loss of homes and possessions.)

    About the same number of Arabs made "refugee" camps (Now cities not tents) and have never returned to their own states. They have received huge amounts of money.

    A very large number of them have Jordanian or Egyptian nationality, they are only 'Palestinian' as a result of semantics and attempts to make them victims. 'Palestinians' thrive on their victim status.
    The Jordanians don't want these people in their country, because they will try to overthrow the Hashemite kingdom. The Syrians don't want them in their country, in fact, the Syrians slaughtered at least 3,000 in the Tel al-Zaatar massacre. (Nearly 3 times more than died in the Operation Cast Lead in 2007-8).

    Sadly the mainly Muslim Arabs (not forgetting some Christians) have not been absorbed and accepted and helped to build new lives in their new countries. Egypt and Jordan have been less than helpful in this respect. They have not been helped by their Muslim Brothers. They have been used as a tool by the Muslim Brotherhood, the P.L.O. and other groups to undermine and try to destroy the legal state of Israel.
    So what you mean is, since Israel stole their land the Israelis should pack up and move to another nation.

    That isn't going to happen, the Palestinians are fighting against an evil occupation force. I have huge respect for the Palestinians and what they have gone through since 1948.

    I have nothing but hatred for the Israeli govt, and the policies they carry out.

    If you want to read the truth about Palestine try reading what John Pilger reports.

    ITV - John Pilger - Palestine

    John Pilger is one of the best reporters there is. His coverage on the conflict in Israel/Palestine is amazing.
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    Quote Originally Posted by DCFGS3 View Post
    But technically its Iran's nuclear ambitions that are causing strife. IMO Iran would have no problem in nuking Israel, and Israel is similarly of this opinion, hence their first strike policy. Having said that, it's unlikely that they would use Nukes, conventional air strikes or low-yield Nuclear bunker busters is most likely. Israel isn't stupid. Also, Chirac isn't president anymore.
    We have no evidence that Iran plans to build nuclear weapons, and even if they did it is very hypocritical for nations with nuclear weapons to condemn Iran.

    I know that Chirac is no-longer the president, just pointing out the attitude that the dirty French govt holds.
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    Quote Originally Posted by Kiwi 1691 View Post
    We have no evidence that Iran plans to build nuclear weapons, and even if they did it is very hypocritical for nations with nuclear weapons to condemn Iran.

    I know that Chirac is no-longer the president, just pointing out the attitude that the dirty French govt holds.
    Yet they seem keen to hide their 'peaceful' Nuclear ambitions. If they are not open with their nuclear ambitions, then they must have something to hide.

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    Quote Originally Posted by DCFGS3 View Post
    However dodgy Israel's creation was, it isn't actually the fault of Israel, that goes to the UK, US and UN.

    What your set of maps doesn't show Flash is the attempted invasions and terror attacks against Israel leading it to take that land to protect itself. Also I fail to see how Israel is an apartheid regime or how the Israelis are even close to treating the Palestinians like the Nazis did the Jews, last time I checked, there was no gas chambers or firing squads.
    The Palestinians will tell you that have suffered a Holocaust at the hands of the Israelis.

    The Europeans were the invaders and I am sorry but they don't get a pass on "defending" themselves when they are stealing land, establishing ghettoes and killing people.

    The Jews from Europe had no right to steal land from the Palestinians. The Muslims and Christian Palestinians had been living there for many generations and all of a sudden one day the ships of immigrants showed up and the Palestinians were run off their land.

    The Jews took over and established a Jewish state and they controlled everything, establishing an apartheid society like South Africa and the old South in the US. Israel is not much different than the Muslim theocracies. There are substantial information on Google about the apartheid settlements of the Palestinians. I suggest you do a little research.

    The Israelis deny apartheid but the facts speak for themselves. Everything from controlled entry and exits to fenced ghettoes.

    I feel great sympathy for what the Jews in Europe had to endure at the hands of the Nazis. My father fought to free them. I have great respect for the Jewish religion. As a Christian I consider myself a Spiritual Jew. I have no problem with Jewish ethnicity and I don’t believe in worldwide Jewish conspiracies. However, I do not support the right of the government of Israel to steal land and establish a country at the expense of the people that had been living their many generations. That is just not moral. I don’t like the Israelis killing the Palestinians for their own security.

    I also do not like the fact that my country was attacked by the goddamn Israelis and that they spy on us and have sold the secrets to the Soviets for profit. I don’t like the fact the filthy pro Israel lobby in the US owns so many of our politicians. The goddamn Israelis have a great scam going. They pay millions to our politicians and they get billions in return. The worst foreign policy mistake the US ever made was to support Israel. That has caused us great trouble. Everything from the oil embargo of the 1970s to the attack on 911. Israel lives well and the US pays for it.
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    Quote Originally Posted by flash View Post
    The Palestinians will tell you that have suffered a Holocaust at the hands of the Israelis.

    The Europeans were the invaders and I am sorry but they don't get a pass on "defending" themselves when they are stealing land, establishing ghettoes and killing people.

    The Jews from Europe had no right to steal land from the Palestinians. The Muslims and Christian Palestinians had been living there for many generations and all of a sudden one day the ships of immigrants showed up and the Palestinians were run off their land.

    The Jews took over and established a Jewish state and they controlled everything, establishing an apartheid society like South Africa and the old South in the US. Israel is not much different than the Muslim theocracies. There are substantial information on Google about the apartheid settlements of the Palestinians. I suggest you do a little research.

    The Israelis deny apartheid but the facts speak for themselves. Everything from controlled entry and exits to fenced ghettoes.

    I feel great sympathy for what the Jews in Europe had to endure at the hands of the Nazis. My father fought to free them. I have great respect for the Jewish religion. As a Christian I consider myself a Spiritual Jew. I have no problem with Jewish ethnicity and I don’t believe in worldwide Jewish conspiracies. However, I do not support the right of the government of Israel to steal land and establish a country at the expense of the people that had been living their many generations. That is just not moral. I don’t like the Israelis killing the Palestinians for their own security.

    I also do not like the fact that my country was attacked by the goddamn Israelis and that they spy on us and have sold the secrets to the Soviets for profit. I don’t like the fact the filthy pro Israel lobby in the US owns so many of our politicians. The goddamn Israelis have a great scam going. They pay millions to our politicians and they get billions in return. The worst foreign policy mistake the US ever made was to support Israel. That has caused us great trouble. Everything from the oil embargo of the 1970s to the attack on 911. Israel lives well and the US pays for it.
    Explain how being constantly under attack from terrorists is 'living well'?

    Also, you do realise that there were Zionist Jews fighting for Israel well before the end of WWII?

    Palestinians might argue that they have suffered a Holocaust, but the fact is they'd be wrong. Israel has made no attempt to exterminate Palestinians, unlike the Palestinians trying to destroy Israel.

    Since its founding, Israel has been under attack, and has defended itself, unfortunately, some people think that Israel shouldn't be allowed to defend itself from terrorists, and should just put up with bombs and rockets quietly. How would you feel Flash if the US wasn't allowed to respond to 9/11, you just had to put up with the terror attacks?

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    Quote Originally Posted by DCFGS3 View Post

    Palestinians might argue that they have suffered a Holocaust, but the fact is they'd be wrong. Israel has made no attempt to exterminate Palestinians, unlike the Palestinians trying to destroy Israel.
    Seeing as the state of Palestine no longer exists one could argue that Israel has been successful in perpetrating the destruction of a nation! I'm not actually all that interested in who did what first, Israel's not going anywhere and she continues to treat the Palestinians atrociously and ignore every UN resolution passed (despite using one to continually justify her creation), we could compare death toll numbers between the two groups and use that as evidence of attempted genocide, but this will go round and round. It's more important to see if some sort of peace can be brokered (if Blair did manage to help there I'd almost be happy for him not to be hauled up before the Hague on war crimes), I can only see a two state solution working and that will mean that Israel will have to stop acting like she has automatic right to behave however she chooses because she believes that some of her ancestors (who happen to also be the ancestors of the Palestinians) had a God given right to settle there!
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    Quote Originally Posted by Opinionated View Post
    Seeing as the state of Palestine no longer exists one could argue that Israel has been successful in perpetrating the destruction of a nation! I'm not actually all that interested in who did what first, Israel's not going anywhere and she continues to treat the Palestinians atrociously and ignore every UN resolution passed (despite using one to continually justify her creation), we could compare death toll numbers between the two groups and use that as evidence of attempted genocide, but this will go round and round. It's more important to see if some sort of peace can be brokered (if Blair did manage to help there I'd almost be happy for him not to be hauled up before the Hague on war crimes), I can only see a two state solution working and that will mean that Israel will have to stop acting like she has automatic right to behave however she chooses because she believes that some of her ancestors (who happen to also be the ancestors of the Palestinians) had a God given right to settle there!
    The fact remains that Israel is still under attack from Hamas, essentially it's still at war with them. While I believe progress should be made with Fatah, it seems Fatah is more interested in reuniting the territories, a bad decision.

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    This is one of those subjects where many people already have a partisan position. It is also highly emotive.

    I have been to Israel, and as a believer, I have seen many Bible prophecies fulfilled through this land. One of the latest in 1967, when Jerusalem was removed from the hands of gentiles.

    Non believers will not appreciate this, but this whole conflict is a spiritual battle between good and evil.

    I will be reading this thread with interest, but I don't intend to add any more posts.

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    Quote Originally Posted by DCFGS3 View Post
    The fact remains that Israel is still under attack from Hamas, essentially it's still at war with them. While I believe progress should be made with Fatah, it seems Fatah is more interested in reuniting the territories, a bad decision.
    As has been said many times before, the reason why groups like Fatah and Hamas were created, was the anger of the Palestinians caused by the actions of Israel.

    The violence that Israel uses as you say to "protect itself" from these groups is the violence that caused these groups to form.

    What do these sources tell you?


    http://www.americantaxdollars.com/wp...by_year-lg.gif

    “The majority of these [Palestinian] children were killed and injured while going about normal daily activities, such as going to school, playing, shopping, or simply being in their homes. Sixty-four percent of children killed during the first six months of 2003 died as a result of Israeli air and ground attacks, or from indiscriminate fire from Israeli soldiers.” -Catherine Cook
    http://www.israeli-occupation.org/wp...ack_school.jpg

    This is Israel attacking a school with white phosphorus munitions.



    Gaza War

    http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedi...-Gaza-2009.jpg http://en.wikipedia.org/skins-1.5/co...gnify-clip.png
    Israel used white phosphorus munitions during the 2009 Gaza War[24]


    The Israeli military used white phosphorus munitions in the Gaza War.[25] The IDF repeatedly denied using white phosphorus munitions but acknowledged use after the war ended.[26]
    Several reports from human right groups during the war indicated that white phosphorus shells were being used by Israel.[27][28][29] Human Rights Watch said shells exploded over populated civilian areas, including a crowded refugee camp[30] and a United Nations school where civilians were seeking refuge.[31] Additionally, Human Rights Watch said that White phosphorus injuries were suspected in the cases of ten burn victims.[32]
    Human Rights Watch said its experts in the region had witnessed the use of white phosphorus. Kenneth Roth, the organisation's executive director, added: "This is a chemical compound that burns structures and burns people. It should not be used in populated areas."[33]
    Amnesty International said a fact-finding team found "indisputable evidence of the widespread use of white phosphorus" in crowded residential areas of Gaza City and elsewhere in the territory.[34] Donatella Rovera, the head of an Amnesty fact-finding mission to southern Israel and Gaza, said: "Israeli forces used white phosphorus and other weapons supplied by the USA to carry out serious violations of international humanitarian law, including war crimes."[35]
    On January 14, the newspaper Haaretz reported that Hamas had fired a White Phosphorus mortar shell which exploded in an open area in the Eshkol area in the western Negev of southern Israel. No injuries or damage were reported. [30]
    On 15 January, the United Nations compound, housing numerous refugees in Gaza City, was reportedly struck by Israeli White phosphorus artillery shells, setting fire to pallets of relief materials and igniting several large fuel storage tanks. A UN spokesperson indicated that there were difficulties in attempting to extinguish the fires and stated "You can’t put it [White phosphorus] out with traditional methods such as fire extinguishers. You need sand but we do not have any sand in the compound."[36][37] Senior Israeli defense officials maintain that the shelling was in response to Israeli military personnel being fired upon by Hamas fighters who were in proximity to the UN headquarters.[38] The Israeli army is investigating improper use of WP in this conflict, particularly in one incident in which 20 WP shells were fired in a built-up area of Beit Lahiya.[39]
    On 17 January, Peter Herby, head of the International Committee of the Red Cross Arms Unit , confirmed the use of white phosphorous weapons by Israel in Gaza, outlined the rules applicable to phosphorous weapons and explained the ICRC's approach to the issue.[40]
    On January 20, Paul Wood of the BBC reports from Gaza on what appears to be white phosphorus use near the vicinity of civilian areas. Amnesty team weapon expert Christopher Cobb-Smith, who witnessed the shelling during the conflict, reported "we saw streets and alleyways littered with evidence of the use of white phosphorus, including still-burning wedges and the remnants of the shells and canisters fired by the Israeli army." [41]
    On January 26, the Israel's Ministry of Defence confirmed speculations about the use of white phosphorous in the Israeli-Gaza conflict.[42][43]
    On March 25, 2009, USA Based Human Rights Organization Human Rights Watch published a 71 page report titled Rain of Fire, Israel’s Unlawful Use of White Phosphorus in Gaza and claimed the Israel's usage of the weapon was illegal.[44]
    This 71-page report provides witness accounts of the devastating effects that white phosphorus munitions had on civilians and civilian property in Gaza. Human Rights Watch researchers in Gaza immediately after hostilities ended found spent shells, canister liners, and dozens of burnt felt wedges containing white phosphorus on city streets, apartment roofs, residential courtyards, and at a United Nations school. The report also presents ballistics evidence, photographs, and satellite imagery, as well as documents from the Israeli military and government.[44]
    Colonel Lane, military expert testifying in front of the fact-finding mission in July 2009, told that white phosphorous is used for smoke generation to hide from the enemy. He stated that "the quality of smoke produced by white phosphorous is superb; if you want real smoke for real coverage, white phosphorus will give it to you".[45] Professor Newton, expert in laws of armed conflict testifying in front of the committee, said that in an urban area, where potential perils are snipers, explosive devices and trip wires, one effective way to mask forces' movement is by white phosphorous. In certain cases, he added, such choice of means would be least harmful for civilian population, provided that the use of white phosphorous withstands the proportionality test. He also stressed that the white phosphorous munition is neither chemical nor incendiary weapon.[45]
    The Israeli government released a report in July 2009 that stated that the IDF used white phosphorous in exploding munitions and smoke projectiles. The report stated that the use of exploding munitions were used by Israeli ground and naval forces. The report defended the use of these munition stating that they were only fired on unpopulated areas for marking and signaling and not as an anti-personnel weapon.[46] The report further says that the main type of munitions containing white phosphorous employed by the IDF during the Gaza Operation was smoke screening projectiles, which are smoke shells containing felt wedges dipped in white phosphorous. The report suggests that the use of smoke obscurants proved to be highly effective at cloaking IDF forces while obstructing enemy lines of sight and that at no time did IDF forces have the objective of inflicting any harm on the civilian population.[46]
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    Quote Originally Posted by Barry View Post
    This is one of those subjects where many people already have a partisan position. It is also highly emotive.

    I have been to Israel, and as a believer, I have seen many Bible prophecies fulfilled through this land. One of the latest in 1967, when Jerusalem was removed from the hands of gentiles.

    Non believers will not appreciate this, but this whole conflict is a spiritual battle between good and evil.

    I will be reading this thread with interest, but I don't intend to add any more posts.
    A battle of good vs evil? Really, so that must make Israel evil, because I wouldn't label the oppressed Palestinians as evil.

    The Palestinians are the victims.
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    Quote Originally Posted by Kiwi 1691 View Post
    As has been said many times before, the reason why groups like Fatah and Hamas were created, was the anger of the Palestinians caused by the actions of Israel.

    The violence that Israel uses as you say to "protect itself" from these groups is the violence that caused these groups to form.

    What do these sources tell you?
    Hamas was formed by radical Islamists from teh Muslim Brotherhood. Fatah and the PLO grew from anti-Israel groups that existed prior to the Six Day War, (the 1967 borders). It seems hypocritical that they should attempt to destroy Israel, and then have the gall to ask back their land when they lose, as if they were just joking or something.

    This is Israel attacking a school with white phosphorus munitions.
    I have previously said I don't support the use of white phosphorus in Gaza. But the fact remains that Hamas hides among civilians and uses playgrounds and ovals to launch rockets.
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    Quote Originally Posted by DCFGS3 View Post
    Hamas was formed by radical Islamists from teh Muslim Brotherhood. Fatah and the PLO grew from anti-Israel groups that existed prior to the Six Day War, (the 1967 borders). It seems hypocritical that they should attempt to destroy Israel, and then have the gall to ask back their land when they lose, as if they were just joking or something.



    I have previously said I don't support the use of white phosphorus in Gaza. But the fact remains that Hamas hides among civilians and uses playgrounds and ovals to launch rockets.

    The Israelis have created Hamas a just like the Nazis created the French underground.

    Groups like Hamas were created to fight against the Israelis invaders.

    You have to remember the old adage; "one man's terrorist is another man's patriot".

    The Palestinians are fighting back against a vicious foe that had killed their children and taken away their land. I don't blame them for fighting hard.

    They have to use what you call terrorist tactics because their enemy is well entrenched and are well armed. They use tactics like suicide bombers because the goddamn Israelis are armed with tanks, F-16s, Patriot missiles, M-113, M-16s,nuclear weapons and just about every other highly sophisticated weapon system you can imagine. Weapons given to them by greedy American politicians more interested in sucking on the tit of AIPAC than doing the right thing.

    The fact of the matter is that it was the European immigrants that started the hostilities and they started the war to subjugate the Palestinians. All the Palestinians are doing is fighting back against a vicious enemy.

    In this case the Israelis are the terrorist.

    I don't particularly like the Palestinians but I understand why they fight against the Israelis. You would probably fight like they do if the UN gave your country away to some other people that came in and took over, stole your land and killed your children.
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    Quote Originally Posted by Barry View Post
    Non believers will not appreciate this, but this whole conflict is a spiritual battle between good and evil.
    As a fellow Christian I don't accept the premise that God has anything to do with present day Israel.

    Israel is not the good force in the Middle East. The creation of modern day Israel in 1947 is what is causing most of the tension in the Middle East nowadays.

    The Israelis are just as vicious and just as corrupt as any of the other Middle East countries. They deserve no moral backing by any Christian.

    You also have to remember that the Israelis have killed and taken away land from Palestinian Christians the same as the Palestinians Muslims.

    I have a friend that grew up in the Middle East. She was the daughter of an American diplomat assigned to Israel. The church where she was confirmed was destroyed by the filthy Israelis to make way for yet another housing complex for the flood of immigrants. When the pastor of the church protested he disappeared one day.

    I belong to a shooting range. We get all kinds of visitors. Last year a couple of Israeli men were visiting and shooting. They were in Florida on vacation. The Israelis were members of the IDF. They were talking about how they used M-1 Carbines to shoot Palestinians. They bragged about getting on roofs of buildings and waiting for a Palestinians to come down the street so they could shoot them. I don't know if they were telling the truth or not but it made me sick to see them laughing about killing civilians.

    I served in the Army from 1966 to 1970. I spent most of my time in Vietnam but spent a few months in Europe in 1967. My job was working with the US Army Security Agency, which is a branch of NSA. I was on duty the day that the filthy Israelis attached the USS Liberty and killed 35 of my fellow NSA brothers. They also wounded 180 more. The Israelis claim it was an accident but there is tremendous evidence that it was done on purpose. The Israelis even strafed the lifeboats, which should be considered to be a war crime. LBJ gave the Israelis a pass on the attack because he didn’t want to upset the pro Israel lobby in America, which was a big contributor to the Democrat Party.
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    Quote Originally Posted by flash View Post
    The Israelis have created Hamas a just like the Nazis created the French underground.

    Groups like Hamas were created to fight against the Israelis invaders.

    You have to remember the old adage; "one man's terrorist is another man's patriot".

    The Palestinians are fighting back against a vicious foe that had killed their children and taken away their land. I don't blame them for fighting hard.

    They have to use what you call terrorist tactics because their enemy is well entrenched and are well armed. They use tactics like suicide bombers because the goddamn Israelis are armed with tanks, F-16s, Patriot missiles, M-113, M-16s,nuclear weapons and just about every other highly sophisticated weapon system you can imagine. Weapons given to them by greedy American politicians more interested in sucking on the tit of AIPAC than doing the right thing.

    The fact of the matter is that it was the European immigrants that started the hostilities and they started the war to subjugate the Palestinians. All the Palestinians are doing is fighting back against a vicious enemy.

    In this case the Israelis are the terrorist.

    I don't particularly like the Palestinians but I understand why they fight against the Israelis. You would probably fight like they do if the UN gave your country away to some other people that came in and took over, stole your land and killed your children.
    Except you forget it wasn't Palestine, it never was. It was a British Mandate after WWI and before that part of the Ottoman Empire, 'Palestine' was created in the same UN declaration that created Israel, in denying Israel's existence, they're denying their own. Furthermore there has always been a Jewish presence in Palestine, it was never entirely Arabic. Also, there wasn't simply a great wave of immigration to Palestine starting in 1945, it began in the 12th Century, in response to Catholic persecution in Europe. With the first Ailyah (Exodus of Jews to Palestine) in 1881, the second between 1904-1914. We wouldn't even be in this problem if the Arabs had accepted the UN partition plan, which gave equal rights to both states. Instead, they attacked the Jews in Palestine.

    If the Palestinians were fighting a non-terrorist cause, then they would target the Israeli military and Government exclusively. This is not the case, they target and kill innocent women and children. The IDF does not. Yes the Israelis have better weapons, but how does that justify blowing up a school? And the Arabs did once have better weapons, like tanks and jets, but they lost these when they tried to invade in 1967. Yes the Palestinians got a raw deal, but they got this deal from the British. There was going to be a Zionist state in Palestine at some point. They knew this in 1916 with the Balfour Declaration.

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    Quote Originally Posted by DCFGS3 View Post
    If the Palestinians were fighting a non-terrorist cause, then they would target the Israeli military and Government exclusively.
    I am sorry but all is fair in love and war. For instance, the Allies targeted civilians in WWII. Lots of civilians. The Allies (of which Australia was part) killed many German and Japanese civilians and didn't even think twice about it.

    The Palestinians cannot go head to head against the Israeli military simply because the Israelis are too strong. After all the Israelis are getting the best American made weapons possible. The Palestinians fight the Israelis the only way they can. I don't blame them. The Israelis also target Palestinians civilians when it suits them.

    I would have no qualms in attacking civilians if some force did to my country what the Israelis did to the Palestinians. It wouldn't bother me at all if my family was threaten the way the Palestinians are threaten. The enemy would deserve what it got.

    The Israelis have been brutal and immoral. The Palestinians have given the Israelis a little payback. I don't blame them. I blame the goddamn Israelis for establishing a country that other people were occupying. Who in the hell are those bastards to think they have the right to the land just because the Germans treated them like crap?

    By the way, you never answered the question I asked earlier. If the UN decided to partition up Australia and some other people moved in and started taking away your land, killing your people and generally taking over wouldn't you be a little pissed? Would you fight back or lick the boots of your new masters? I know when the Japs threaten to do that in 1942 you Australians didn't like that idea very much.
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    Quote Originally Posted by flash View Post
    I am sorry but all is fair in love and war. For instance, the Allies targeted civilians in WWII. Lots of civilians. The Allies (of which Australia was part) killed many German and Japanese civilians and didn't even think twice about it.

    The Palestinians cannot go head to head against the Israeli military simply because the Israelis are too strong. After all the Israelis are getting the best American made weapons possible. The Palestinians fight the Israelis the only way they can. I don't blame them. The Israelis also target Palestinians civilians when it suits them.

    I would have no qualms in attacking civilians if some force did to my country what the Israelis did to the Palestinians. It wouldn't bother me at all if my family was threaten the way the Palestinians are threaten. The enemy would deserve what it got.

    The Israelis have been brutal and immoral. The Palestinians have given the Israelis a little payback. I don't blame them. I blame the goddamn Israelis for establishing a country that other people were occupying. Who in the hell are those bastards to think they have the right to the land just because the Germans treated them like crap?


    As I have said earlier, it was the decision of the UK to form Israel. And as I also pointed out, the establishment of a Jewish State in Palestine predated WWII.

    There, that's settled then, the Israelis have a right to defend themselves against Palestinian and Arab aggression by any means necessary.

    By the way, you never answered the question I asked earlier. If the UN decided to partition up Australia and some other people moved in and started taking away your land, killing your people and generally taking over wouldn't you be a little pissed? Would you fight back or lick the boots of your new masters? I know when the Japs threaten to do that in 1942 you Australians didn't like that idea very much.
    Of course I would, but that's because Australia is currently a united country, dividing it up would be tantamount to invasion. If this was 1900 and they were going to divide up Australia with one part going to the aboriginals and one to whites I would be fine with that, as up until then Australia wasn't a country, just like Palestine wasn't a country.

    And BTW, there was never any real threat from a Japanese invasion, it was largely exaggerated.

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    Quote Originally Posted by DCFGS3 View Post

    As I have said earlier, it was the decision of the UK to form Israel. And as I also pointed out, the establishment of a Jewish State in Palestine predated WWII.

    There, that's settled then, the Israelis have a right to defend themselves against Palestinian and Arab aggression by any means necessary.
    The UN doesn’t have the right to take away my freedom. They don't have the right to take away the freedom of the Palestinians.

    Since the Palestinians are still fighting 50 years later then I think you are wrong in saying that it is "settled", aren't you? Maybe you need to send a letter to the Palestinian people and tell them YOU think it is settled and they should lick the boots of their masters. They will probably reply to the letter with a statement like “piss on you”.

    Of course I would,
    Of course the Palestinians would also fight. They think their freedom is just as much worth fighting for as you think your freedom is worth fighting for. Are you making a racists statement by suggesting that somehow the freedom of a Palestinian is worth less than your freedom?

    At least you admitted that you didn't want the Israelis to do to you that they did to the Palestinians. That is a start towards me teaching you moral clarity.
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    Quote Originally Posted by DCFGS3 View Post

    And BTW, there was never any real threat from a Japanese invasion, it was largely exaggerated.
    In 1968 I went to Sydney on RR for Vietnam. I had a great time. Beautiful country with great people.

    The first day I arrived in Sydney a buddy and I were walking down the street. We were stopped by a 40ish Australian lady. She was a proper lady and had children with her. She welcomed us to Australia and wished us well on our R & R. It was a spontaneous show of affection for Americans. She was very nice.

    I suspect the reason why she was nice was because she was grateful of the help that America gave Australia during the war. If she was in her 40s in 1968 she was in her 20s during the war and probably knew first hand that the Japanese threaten her country. I think she would disagree with your assessment of history because she lived though it.
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    Quote Originally Posted by flash View Post
    The UN doesn’t have the right to take away my freedom. They don't have the right to take away the freedom of the Palestinians.
    That wasn't a typo, it was the British who began the formation of Israel from about 1916. What's more nobody has taken away Palestinian freedoms except themselves through forcing Israel to defend itself.

    Since the Palestinians are still fighting 50 years later then I think you are wrong in saying that it is "settled", aren't you? Maybe you need to send a letter to the Palestinian people and tell them YOU think it is settled and they should lick the boots of their masters. They will probably reply to the letter with a statement like “piss on you”.
    This was no Jewish invasion of Palestine, there was no oppression and subjugation of the Palestinian people. What there was was "here, considering their are large amounts of Jewish people in Palestine (33% of the population by 1945), why don't we (the British) give up our mandate and make two new countries, one for Arabs, and one for the Jews?"

    Jews: "Fine"

    Arabs:"**** you, we'll destroy any Jewish nation"


    Of course the Palestinians would also fight. They think their freedom is just as much worth fighting for as you think your freedom is worth fighting for. Are you making a racists statement by suggesting that somehow the freedom of a Palestinian is worth less than your freedom?
    You seem to have entirely missed the point of what I was saying. Australia is a unified country, dividing it now would be an invasion. Palestine was not a country. There was no such thing as Palestine the country until it was created along with Israel in 1947.

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    Quote Originally Posted by DCFGS3 View Post
    This was no Jewish invasion of Palestine, there was no oppression and subjugation of the Palestinian people. What there was was "here, considering their are large amounts of Jewish people in Palestine (33% of the population by 1945), why don't we (the British) give up our mandate and make two new countries, one for Arabs, and one for the Jews?"
    Excuse me, but what do you call the repeated Israeli incursions and land grabs into Palestine if not invasions? Why do you think that those regions, well illustrated in the map Flash posted earlier, are called "the occupied territories"?

    ...... Palestine was not a country. There was no such thing as Palestine the country until it was created along with Israel in 1947.
    I think you need to look at your history books! Palestine might not have a legal statehood at the moment, another legacy of the 1947 cock-up, but it's defined as a geographical territory right back to Roman times and received its first written mention as a region right back to Canaanite times of around 1200BCE.
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    Quote Originally Posted by Midas View Post
    Excuse me, but what do you call the repeated Israeli incursions and land grabs into Palestine if not invasions? Why do you think that those regions, well illustrated in the map Flash posted earlier, are called "the occupied territories"?
    Acceptable responses to repeated Arab aggression to safeguard Israeli security.



    I think you need to look at your history books! Palestine might not have a legal statehood at the moment, another legacy of the 1947 cock-up, but it's defined as a geographical territory right back to Roman times and received its first written mention as a region right back to Canaanite times of around 1200BCE.
    We're talking about Palestine the Arab state. Flash wanted to know if I would defend my country from partition, I would, but Palestine was never a unified country for the Arabs to be defending.

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    Quote Originally Posted by DCFGS3 View Post
    That wasn't a typo, it was the British who began the formation of Israel from about 1916. What's more nobody has taken away Palestinian freedoms except themselves through forcing Israel to defend itself.
    So because Britain supported it, that makes it alright? Is that what your saying.

    If so don't forget the McMahon-Hussein Correspondence,

    McMahon?Hussein Correspondence - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

    Where the British govt, promised to give the Middle East to the Arabs if they helped to over throw the Ottomans.

    http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedi...Picot-1916.gif

    What actually happened was this ^.

    A complete breech of the agreement. The Arabs fought to help Britain defeat the Ottoman Turks and Britain screwed them over.







    Quote Originally Posted by DCFGS3 View Post
    This was no Jewish invasion of Palestine, there was no oppression and subjugation of the Palestinian people. What there was was "here, considering their are large amounts of Jewish people in Palestine (33% of the population by 1945), why don't we (the British) give up our mandate and make two new countries, one for Arabs, and one for the Jews?"
    Britain has instigated Partitions many times and they always result in mass bloodshed. There was an invasion and there was subjugation. I dare you to go to Palestine and voice your views. There may be some disagreement, and you might actually learn something.




    Quote Originally Posted by DCFGS3 View Post
    You seem to have entirely missed the point of what I was saying. Australia is a unified country, dividing it now would be an invasion. Palestine was not a country. There was no such thing as Palestine the country until it was created along with Israel in 1947.
    Palestine existed before 1947

    http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedi...south_1924.jpg

    That is from 1924

    The mandate for Palestine was issued to Britain by the League of Nations on 29 September 1923. This was made up of

    http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedi...estine1920.png
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    Quote Originally Posted by Kiwi 1691 View Post
    So because Britain supported it, that makes it alright? Is that what your saying.

    If so don't forget the McMahon-Hussein Correspondence,

    McMahon?Hussein Correspondence - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

    Where the British govt, promised to give the Middle East to the Arabs if they helped to over throw the Ottomans.



    What actually happened was this ^.

    A complete breech of the agreement. The Arabs fought to help Britain defeat the Ottoman Turks and Britain screwed them over.
    No, what I'm saying is that it isn't the Jews fault that the rest of the world decided they needed somewhere to put them.








    Britain has instigated Partitions many times and they always result in mass bloodshed. There was an invasion and there was subjugation. I dare you to go to Palestine and voice your views. There may be some disagreement, and you might actually learn something.
    By Britain. Not Jews.





    Palestine existed before 1947



    That is from 1924

    The mandate for Palestine was issued to Britain by the League of Nations on 29 September 1923. This was made up of
    Correction: The British Mandate of the Geological Area known as Palestine existed, the Arab State of Palestine (which is apparently what Hamas is fighting for) did not.

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    Quote Originally Posted by DCFGS3 View Post

    You seem to have entirely missed the point of what I was saying. Australia is a unified country, dividing it now would be an invasion. Palestine was not a country. There was no such thing as Palestine the country until it was created along with Israel in 1947.
    I didn't miss the point you were making at all. Your point was weak. It doesn’t make any difference to the Palestinian living a filthy crowed ghetto if he was “unified” or not. Not when the Israelis stole the land his family had lived on for generations. Not when the Israelis have killed his children. He is still brutalized by the European and Russian invaders and he doesn’t like it.

    By the way, if you look at many pre 1947 maps you will see the present day country of Israel identified as Palestine. Passports were issued for Palestine for a period longer than the present day country of Israel has been in existence.

    Your contention that the Palestinians have no right to exist because there was no Palestine is laughable and really doesn't mean anything because the Palestinians know they exist.

    The Palestinians have just as much a right to be free from the domination of an invading force as the Australians. You are in denial of this because it exposes your hypocrisy and lack of moral clarity. I honestly think it has racist roots. You think your freedom is more deserving than the freedom of a Palestinians. At least you admitted you would not want to be subjected to the same brutality as the Palestinians and that is a good start.
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