Fork-tongued Harman

[georgepopovic]

This could be a cynic's view but...

Harriet Harman's assertion that she neither wants to be nor will she stand to become PM is for the simple-minded only, which seems to include not only the Daily Telegraph but other organs with more experience than they wish to exercise. What she repeatedly said during her interview with John Humphreys is that her loyalty is to Gordon. What she never said, despite many opportunities to do so, is what she will do when Gordon is no more (irrespective of the hand that eventually does the dispatching). What's the betting that when she grabs at the job and is challenged, she'll say, quite rightly, that we didn't listen to what she said (or didn't).

Watch this space.

[Trouble43]

I think she's said this because of what happened to the other 'great pretender to the throne, David Miliband. He got sidelined into the 'lovely' job of Secretary of State for Foreign and Commonwealth Affairs- in other words a nowhere job.

She's VERY aware she could be next. She doesn't want that. Remember how Elizabeth I constantly denied being involved with the various plots and schemes to overthrow her half sister Queen Mary? Doesn't mean she wasn't aware of them though; she was just very careful not to put her name to any of them.

Seems to me that Harriet the Harperson is doing the same - whether it will bring her the same rewards of leadership it did Queen Liz the first, remains to be seen.

[JacquesMagique]

Seems to me that Harriet the Harperson is doing the same - whether it will bring her the same rewards of leadership it did Queen Liz the first, remains to be seen.

But Elizabeth succeeded Mary because she died of a tumor. sorry to be a pedant lol.

I don't think we're likely to see a new labour leader before the next election, which is unfortunate.

[Trouble43]

But Elizabeth succeeded Mary because she died of a tumor. sorry to be a pedant lol.

I don't think we're likely to see a new labour leader before the next election, which is unfortunate.

The point I was making was that Mary could never prove that Elizabeth was plotting against her and so put her to death. By distancing herself from the plotters Elizabeth survived long enough to inherit the throne. It'll be interesting to see if Harman does the same; Miliband didn't manage it.

I'm glad we won't, I don't want that party of nomarks having ANY chance of re-election.

[JacquesMagique]

The point I was making was that Mary could never prove that Elizabeth was plotting against her and so put her to death. By distancing herself from the plotters Elizabeth survived long enough to inherit the throne. It'll be interesting to see if Harman does the same; Miliband didn't manage it.

I'm glad we won't, I don't want that party of nomarks having ANY chance of re-election.

ohhh i get you

so youd rather the tories were in?

[Trouble43]

Oh, GOD - NOOOOO! NOT the tories, anything but...literally. I'd even vote raving loony party.

[JacquesMagique]

Oh, GOD - NOOOOO! NOT the tories, anything but...literally. I'd even vote raving loony party.

well to be honest, noone but the Tories or Labour can really win the election, maybe a very very slim chance for the lib dems..

so wouldn't you prefer Labour to have a leader whose image isn't so tarnished, just so the tories don't get in?

[LA]

Vote Conservative

Harriet Harmoron is... well a moron. I can't put it any clearer.

[JacquesMagique]

Vote Conservative

Harriet Harmoron is... well a moron. I can't put it any clearer.

just like david cameron, george osbourne, eric pickles etc etc etc
especially Daniel Hannan.

[LA]

just like david cameron, george osbourne, eric pickles etc etc etc
especially Daniel Hannan.

David Cameron is not a moron, neither is Eric Pickles or Daniel Hannan.
George Osbourne on the other hand... well.

[JacquesMagique]

David Cameron is not a moron, neither is Eric Pickles or Daniel Hannan.
George Osbourne on the other hand... well.

Come onn, hannan is an absolute fool. He wants to privatise the NHS for god's sake!

[LA]

Come onn, hannan is an absolute fool. He wants to privatise the NHS for god's sake!

He gave an argument for privatising the NHS.
That doesn't make him a fool at all.

In America, if I am not mistaken, healthcare is privatised. It works fine.
Just means you are paying companies rather than the Government.

Difference is, companies are efficient and can run the same on cheaper budgets.

[JacquesMagique]

He gave an argument for privatising the NHS.
That doesn't make him a fool at all.

In America, if I am not mistaken, healthcare is privatised. It works fine.
Just means you are paying companies rather than the Government.

Difference is, companies are efficient and can run the same on cheaper budgets.

Difference is, children's parents choose not to take their children to the hospital because they will have to pay for treatment, but they cant afford it.

[LA]

Difference is, children's parents choose not to take their children to the hospital because they will have to pay for treatment, but they cant afford it.

and that is an argument for nationalisation.
He gave an argument for privatisation. It would save the Govenment Billions... Good tax cuts.

But there you go.

[DTE]

In America, if I am not mistaken, healthcare is privatised. It works fine.
Just means you are paying companies rather than the Government.

Difference is, companies are efficient and can run the same on cheaper budgets.

I think you'll find it works contrary to the word 'fine'. Not recommending Michael Moore is usually the way to go, but check out his documentary Sicko for numerous examples of how the poor get shafted. In a national health service, the government is responsible for the public's health, insurance companies are only responsible to their shareholders. If the Tories privatise the health service the country will never forgive them for it.

But I agree mostly with your assesment of Harriet Harmon, if anything you were a little soft on her by calling her a moron. Its obvious she's positioning herself for a leadership run, personally the only Labourite with any crediblity is Jack Straw, but he's probably too old now.

[LA]

I think you'll find it works contrary to the word 'fine'. Not recommending Michael Moore is usually the way to go, but check out his documentary Sicko for numerous examples of how the poor get shafted. In a national health service, the government is responsible for the public's health, insurance companies are only responsible to their shareholders. If the Tories privatise the health service the country will never forgive them for it.

But I agree mostly with your assesment of Harriet Harmon, if anything you were a little soft on her by calling her a moron. Its obvious she's positioning herself for a leadership run, personally the only Labourite with any crediblity is Jack Straw, but he's probably too old now.

The Tories will never privatise it.

I agree, moron just isnt a strong enough word to define that disgraceful woman.

[DTE]

The Tories will never privatise it.

I agree, moron just isnt a strong enough word to define that disgraceful woman.

I don't think disgraceful is quite right. I think Harmon is just a bit dim, she's a posh newLab from a priveleged background who has very little idea of her public perception, I'd call her politically naive.

Although the footage of her reading out ads for eastern european sex workers from the local papers was one of the funniest Labour cringe-moments in ages, that was until Gordon got on YouTube...

[Trouble43]

well to be honest, noone but the Tories or Labour can really win the election, maybe a very very slim chance for the lib dems..

so wouldn't you prefer Labour to have a leader whose image isn't so tarnished, just so the tories don't get in?

But she's part of Brown's cabinet - therefore tarnished with failure - and wasn't she the one that firstly had her wrist slapped over expenses and her husband's involvement? Therefore tarnished with 'nose in the trough' itis.

There is NO ONE on the current nulab cabinet I would trust to run a coffee manchine, let alone the country.

As for the tories they seem more worried about bringing back hunting for their 'pals', than they do with the economy when they first get into power.

So what a choice, eh? A group that put the reinstatement of a banned bloodsport above the economy and the needs of a desperate people; or the idiots who got us into the economic mess in the first place.

All I can say is Heaven help us all.

[Trouble43]

David Cameron is not a moron, neither is Eric Pickles or Daniel Hannan.
George Osbourne on the other hand... well.

William Hague or Anne Widdicombe should be running the tories; Cameron's just slipping into another blair persona. As is Brown - you been watching the idiot scot's hand gestures lately? Blair written all over them. What an idiot; does he really think mimicking Blair will save him?

[Trouble43]

just like david cameron, george osbourne, eric pickles etc etc etc
especially Daniel Hannan.

George Osborne's middle names are 'Tory Liability' - Cameron will come to regret his placement; if he hasn't already.

[Trouble43]

He gave an argument for privatising the NHS.
That doesn't make him a fool at all.

In America, if I am not mistaken, healthcare is privatised. It works fine.
Just means you are paying companies rather than the Government.

Difference is, companies are efficient and can run the same on cheaper budgets.

The problem is though LA, that in America if you can't pay for medical care you die. Simples.

[Trouble43]

I think you'll find it works contrary to the word 'fine'. Not recommending Michael Moore is usually the way to go, but check out his documentary Sicko for numerous examples of how the poor get shafted.

I watched that and was so horrified the next time my mate in New York rang I asked him about their healthcare (thinking Moore had 'over egged the pudding' so to speak) - but no apparently he was bang on the money. We do not want that sort of healthcare (if you can call it that) over here. Once again the poor would be the ones to suffer;and I think the destitute have done enough of that for now under nulab.

Straw might have worked I admit. But again he's one of the nulab converts. I think we need to dump them and start again. But who for? I think perhaps a trawl of the backbenches for a change (on both sides if necessary)?

[Trouble43]

I that was until Gordon got on YouTube...

Yes, that will haunt my nightmares for some time. It was one of those what was he thinking moments.

[DTE]

Yes, that will haunt my nightmares for some time. It was one of those what was he thinking moments.

I saw someone on TV say "I had to pinch myself to make sure it was real". Sums it up perfectly. He's a laughing stock.

I thought Sicko was good, only the depiction of the NHS was a little blinkered, its not exactly the medical eden portayed in the film. No chance finding any talent on the back benches, if in this political climate they can't make a name for themselves, then they're even more usless than the cabinet.

[Opinionated]

I thought Sicko was good, only the depiction of the NHS was a little blinkered, its not exactly the medical eden portayed in the film.

Fair criticism but as Moore himself pointed out, he was not making a film about the failings of the NHS, he was using it as an example of some ways "socialised medicine" is an improvement on the American system.

[LA]

William Hague or Anne Widdicombe should be running the tories; Cameron's just slipping into another Blair persona. As is Brown - you been watching the idiot Scot's hand gestures lately? Blair written all over them. What an idiot; does he really think mimicking Blair will save him?

This is true.

From what I have read and heard, I would very much prefer Anne Widdicombe. I would like William Hague if he resorts back to his more Thatcherite nature towards the European Union.

The problem is though LA, that in America if you can't pay for medical care you die. Simples.

Britain cannot continue paying for the NHS. Eventually it will go private.

[Trouble43]

I saw someone on TV say "I had to pinch myself to make sure it was real". Sums it up perfectly. He's a laughing stock.

It actually went beyond laughing at him because it was so toe curlingly embarrassing. I mean who would even tell him that was a good idea?

I thought Sicko was good, only the depiction of the NHS was a little blinkered, its not exactly the medical eden portayed in the film. No chance finding any talent on the back benches, if in this political climate they can't make a name for themselves, then they're even more usless than the cabinet.

I think the problem with Sicko was that he saw the NHS compared the US system. Our national medical service is a long way from perfect but, possibly compared to America's 'PAYG' system, then it does appear to be a medical eden.

You're probably right about the backbenches - but, to be honest, that just depresses me so much about politics today that I could just cry.

[Trouble43]

This is true.

From what I have read and heard, I would very much prefer Anne Widdicombe. I would like William Hague if he resorts back to his more Thatcherite nature towards the European Union.

I think pulling out of the EU would be a good idea.

Britain cannot continue paying for the NHS. Eventually it will go private.

Then God help people like me and my family - because we just haven't got the cash to pay for private healthcare. I certainly haven't with all my health problems.

[LA]

I think pulling out of the EU would be a good idea.

Then God help people like me and my family - because we just haven't got the cash to pay for private healthcare. I certainly haven't with all my health problems.

The EU should crumble and it should crumble now...
Or at least Britain should withdraw.

The NHS could remain partly nationalised, but it would upset the middle class and upper class who would still pay for it...

[Trouble43]

The NHS could remain partly nationalised, but it would upset the middle class and upper class who would still pay for it...

Oh yes, we mustn't upset the upper classes and such, so that a poor person might not die of cancer.

[JacquesMagique]

The EU should crumble and it should crumble now...
Or at least Britain should withdraw.

The NHS could remain partly nationalised, but it would upset the middle class and upper class who would still pay for it...

so? theyre not the majority are they?

the upper class are insignifcant and obsolete anyway.

[LA]

so? theyre not the majority are they?

the upper class are insignifcant and obsolete anyway.

Oh yes, we mustn't upset the upper classes and such, so that a poor person might not die of cancer.

I will respond to your points together.
If the upper class are not happy, they will leave. Thus we lose a lot of tax, thus tonnes of cuts will be made.

Jacques, I find it ridiculous that you would assume the upper class are insignificant. They are extremely significant and find it shocking you would dispute that.

[Trouble43]

I will respond to your points together.
If the upper class are not happy, they will leave. Thus we lose a lot of tax, thus tonnes of cuts will be made.

Jacques, I find it ridiculous that you would assume the upper class are insignificant. They are extremely significant and find it shocking you would dispute that.

The problem is though LA, that without the WORKING class, the 'upper' class wouldn't have all the money in the first place. After all, who works in the factories the bosses own? Who does all the grafting? Not the owners or the MD's. Did Fred the Shred do...well, ANY grafting? Nope. What would happen to the Royal family without all their servants to wait on them hand and foot? There are too many rich people forgetting they got where they are on the backs of those that work for them.

So I agree with Jacques - the upper classes are insignificant compared to the WORKING class. Additionally I don't think the WORKERS should be left without health cover because some are afraid of offending the rich.

Therefore all I can say to the tories is HANDS OFF OUR NHS. Its not perfect but its better than what you want.

[LA]

Additionally, the workers are no where without businesses.
Its a circle, we all need each other.

You cannot disregard one group of people, otherwise there is chaos.
A Conservative Government will privatise the NHS in the future, as a Labour Government would rather bankrupt the country than look bad by privatising it.

[Opinionated]

A Conservative Government will privatise the NHS in the future, as a Labour Government would rather bankrupt the country than look bad by privatising it.

There are two things any Government of any persuasion would have trouble doing as it would be political suicide, the first is privatise the NHS and the second would be to turn the BBC totally commercial. They've entered our psyche as sacred cows symbolic of being British.
Maybe in a hundred years time people won't have the same protectiveness for them. It's interesting though, if a nationalised health service is such an old fashioned and unworkable idea that it should have had such prominence in the US Presidential elections!
You seem proud of the idea that the Tories will privatise the whole of the UK, it would show them once again to be the posh out-of-touch old boys they always were! That is exactly the reason why a large number of people will never ever vote Conservative regardless of how much they dislike the other choices.
If Thatcher herself didn't dare go as far as pushing for total privatisation of the NHS, it's never going to happen. The electorate will always rather be poor and alive, than rich and dead!

[LA]

There are two things any Government of any persuasion would have trouble doing as it would be political suicide, the first is privatise the NHS and the second would be to turn the BBC totally commercial. They've entered our psyche as sacred cows symbolic of being British.
Maybe in a hundred years time people won't have the same protectiveness for them. It's interesting though, if a nationalised health service is such an old fashioned and unworkable idea that it should have had such prominence in the US Presidential elections!
You seem proud of the idea that the Tories will privatise the whole of the UK, it would show them once again to be the posh out-of-touch old boys they always were! That is exactly the reason why a large number of people will never ever vote Conservative regardless of how much they dislike the other choices.
If Thatcher herself didn't dare go as far as pushing for total privatisation of the NHS, it's never going to happen. The electorate will always rather be poor and alive, than rich and dead!

You clearly are not reading my post.
The NHS will have to be privatised at some point. It cannot remain nationalised. A Labour Government would rather **** up this country entirely, have a huge deficit, ruin the country financially than privatise the NHS.

A Conservative Government would privatise the NHS if it was the only course of action.

I find it disturbing you would follow the idiotic Labour view rather than the more in touch Conservative view.

You call the Consevatives out of touch, I call them economically aware. The NHS will have to be privatised. You either get it privatised with a country still running, or you get a ruined and bankrupt country.

I find your bias against the Conservative Party in any form ridiculous.

[Opinionated]

You clearly are not reading my post.
The NHS will have to be privatised at some point. It cannot remain nationalised. A Labour Government would rather **** up this country entirely, have a huge deficit, ruin the country financially than privatise the NHS.

Your doing it again! Just restating your last position and not taking into account any of the contrary argument is not debating. It will remain nationalised as to privatise it will signal the end of whichever party proposes such action!

A Conservative Government would privatise the NHS if it was the only course of action.

Doubt it, as I say it would be political suicide.

I find it disturbing you would follow the idiotic Labour view rather than the more in touch Conservative view.

In touch with who, not the electorate? Are you having private conversations with Cameron? He's certainly not saying this in public and you know why.

You call the Consevatives out of touch, I call them economically aware. The NHS will have to be privatised. You either get it privatised with a country still running, or you get a ruined and bankrupt country.

So economically aware that whilst Brown was "mismanaging" the economy they were using every opportunity to tell people what was happening...oh wait..! Why must they be mutually exclusive? A healthy workforce is a more productive workforce.

I find your bias against the Conservative Party in any form ridiculous.

And I find your naive simplistic loyalty to your party very sweet and ultimately misguided.

[LA]

I have no loyalty to any party. I believe the Conservative Party is the better one, and my views match that of the Conservative Party better than any other.

It would be political suicide to privatise the NHS, however, The Conservatives would rather privatise the NHS than bankrupt the country, whilst Labour would rather bankrupt the country.

Britain does not collect enough taxes to pay for everything. The nice expendature on health care and education you have been enjoying has come at a huge cost. The cost I speak of is economic disaster.

Brown and the Labour Party spend money that simply isn't there.

[Opinionated]

It would be political suicide to privatise the NHS, however, The Conservatives would rather privatise the NHS than bankrupt the country, whilst Labour would rather bankrupt the country.

Not at the expense of never being in power again, the party who privatises the NHS will replace the Lib Dems as the insignificant third party.

Britain does not collect enough taxes to pay for everything. The nice expendature on health care and education you have been enjoying has come at a huge cost. The cost I speak of is economic disaster.

That nice expenditure that my taxes, those of my parents and Grandparents paid for you mean? Just so we're clear here, you advocate that only those rich enough should have access to health care and education for the sake of balancing the books? That's caring Conservatism at it's best!

Brown and the Labour Party spend money that simply isn't there.

They have I agree, but we (the electorate) have to take some responsibility for spending money we didn't possess on flat screen televisions and shiney cars; an economy built on the buying and selling of goods manufactured elsewhere was always going to collapse eventually, who was it destroyed our manufacturing industry?
Governments always borrow money they have no hope of paying back, how do you think Thatcher paid for the Falklands conflict whilst cutting taxes? Perhaps the penguins paid for it! Balancing an economy (or failing to) comes at a price, bottom line the Tories think the price of cutting services (and thus destroying people's lives) is worth it! I agree that the balance needs redressing, I just think that the NHS is an essential not a luxury.

[JacquesMagique]

I will respond to your points together.
If the upper class are not happy, they will leave. Thus we lose a lot of tax, thus tonnes of cuts will be made.

Jacques, I find it ridiculous that you would assume the upper class are insignificant. They are extremely significant and find it shocking you would dispute that.

I think you mean they upper middle class perhaps?

the actual upper class (nobles etc) contirbute little to our economy or society.

[LA]

That nice expenditure that my taxes, those of my parents and Grandparents paid for you mean? Just so we're clear here, you advocate that only those rich enough should have access to health care and education for the sake of balancing the books? That's caring Conservatism at it's best!

Classic Labour crap.

I am not advocating the privatisation of the NHS, like many other things, I want it to be a nationalised industry. I am merely stating that it cannot remain nationalised forever.

I am not advocating the rich should have access to health care and education, I want everyone to have health care and education, but you must balance the books.

Okay, you have just sake for the sake of balancing the books. If for one minute I think you are being serious the only response that springs to mind is "what a stupid statement". You need balanced accounts.

They have I agree, but we (the electorate) have to take some responsibility for spending money we didn't possess on flat screen televisions and shiney cars; an economy built on the buying and selling of goods manufactured elsewhere was always going to collapse eventually, who was it destroyed our manufacturing industry?

The already failing coal mines I assume you are referring to?
The coal mines were going to fail regardless of Thatcher. It seems Labour voters never understand that very simple point.

Governments always borrow money they have no hope of paying back, how do you think Thatcher paid for the Falklands conflict whilst cutting taxes? Perhaps the penguins paid for it! Balancing an economy (or failing to) comes at a price, bottom line the Tories think the price of cutting services (and thus destroying people's lives) is worth it! I agree that the balance needs redressing, I just think that the NHS is an essential not a luxury.

Lets blame the conservatives for global warming, world poverty.

Hmm the sun will explode soon lets blame the f***ing conservatives for that too shall we?

You have a ridiculous bias against the Conservative Party, but you don't stop there. You label every Conservative with the same brush.

I can tell you, there are many Conservatives who are nothing alike on the NHS, or education. Your bias it ridiculous at best.

I think you mean they upper middle class perhaps?

the actual upper class (nobles etc) contirbute little to our economy or society.

If you say so.

[Trouble43]

Additionally, the workers are no where without businesses.
Its a circle, we all need each other.

You cannot disregard one group of people, otherwise there is chaos.
A Conservative Government will privatise the NHS in the future, as a Labour Government would rather bankrupt the country than look bad by privatising it.

If the NHS is privatised then I hope the likes of 'Sralan' and 'Fred the Shred' can start cleaning their own houses, literally, AND doing all his own dirty work; there won't be any of us left to do it, as we won't be able to afford private healthcare and will not be around or at least healthy enough to do it for them.

[Trouble43]

There are two things any Government of any persuasion would have trouble doing as it would be political suicide, the first is privatise the NHS and the second would be to turn the BBC totally commercial. They've entered our psyche as sacred cows symbolic of being British.
Maybe in a hundred years time people won't have the same protectiveness for them. It's interesting though, if a nationalised health service is such an old fashioned and unworkable idea that it should have had such prominence in the US Presidential elections!
You seem proud of the idea that the Tories will privatise the whole of the UK, it would show them once again to be the posh out-of-touch old boys they always were! That is exactly the reason why a large number of people will never ever vote Conservative regardless of how much they dislike the other choices.
If Thatcher herself didn't dare go as far as pushing for total privatisation of the NHS, it's never going to happen. The electorate will always rather be poor and alive, than rich and dead!

Not sure I agree about the Beeb; too many people are fed up with the ever increasing licence tax and the beeb's disregard for those of us who pay their wages. I think, given another year, then the public would be very happy in the majority for the beeb to have their charter taken away and to go commerical.

There will be a few elderly folk that are annoyed about it, but most of us would welcome not having to find the licence tax every year.

I certainly will NEVER vote tory.

[Trouble43]

I have no loyalty to any party. I believe the Conservative Party is the better one, and my views match that of the Conservative Party better than any other.

Oh come on La! You KNOW you're a tory. Admit it.

The nice expendature on health care and education you have been enjoying has come at a huge cost. The cost I speak of is economic disaster

No the economic disaster has come because the banks got too greedy. NOT because there's an NHS and schools.

[Trouble43]

That nice expenditure that my taxes, those of my parents and Grandparents paid for you mean? Just so we're clear here, you advocate that only those rich enough should have access to health care and education for the sake of balancing the books? That's caring Conservatism at it's best!

Agreed; and the reason I won't vote tory. Well, that and the fact they want to bring back the hooray's fox hunting 'sport'.

Balancing an economy (or failing to) comes at a price, bottom line the Tories think the price of cutting services (and thus destroying people's lives) is worth it! I agree that the balance needs redressing, I just think that the NHS is an essential not a luxury.

Agreed. I was rushed into hospital this morning and given urgent treatment that took all day. I was only discharged because I agreed to go back tomorrow and see the consultant as an outpatient. Would I get that care without the NHS? Of course not! I could never afford it! Nor could I afford the 46 tablets I HAVE to take every day.

THINK about those of us NOT on an income to pay for private care, LA, and NOT healthy either. Not all of us are as fortunate as the tories.

[Opinionated]

Classic Labour crap.

Intelligent reply!

I am not advocating the privatisation of the NHS, like many other things, I want it to be a nationalised industry. I am merely stating that it cannot remain nationalised forever.

It certainly reads like you are

I am not advocating the rich should have access to health care and education, I want everyone to have health care and education, but you must balance the books.

You were the one saying we couldn't have both. I disagree btw but it would mean very unpopular tax rises.

Okay, you have just sake for the sake of balancing the books. If for one minute I think you are being serious the only response that springs to mind is "what a stupid statement". You need balanced accounts.

Yes of course, my thinking was more along the line of it wouldn't be enough of a reason to choose welfare services to suffer over other possible cuts (I appreciate I didn't communicate that well). I think we could agree that the cost of EU membership should go before the NHS.

The already failing coal mines I assume you are referring to?
The coal mines were going to fail regardless of Thatcher. It seems Labour voters never understand that very simple point.

No our entire manufacturing base, British Leyland, British Steel, Shipyards!

Lets blame the conservatives for global warming, world poverty.

Hmm the sun will explode soon lets blame the f***ing conservatives for that too shall we?

Now whose being ridiculous? They did play quite a negative role when it came to world poverty though.

You have a ridiculous bias against the Conservative Party, but you don't stop there. You label every Conservative with the same brush.

It's not so ridiculous when you're actually old enough to compare more than one administration and are therefore able to see a bigger picture!

I can tell you, there are many Conservatives who are nothing alike on the NHS, or education.

Accepted, but it's the old boy network that controls the national policy.

Your bias it ridiculous at best.

Oh that's the winning argument, when you have to resort to insult you've lost.

[LA]

Oh come on La! You KNOW you're a tory. Admit it.
No the economic disaster has come because the banks got too greedy. NOT because there's an NHS and schools.

I am a Tory, doesnt mean I have loyalty to the Conservative Party.

You missed the point.

Eventually the NHS will have to go private. If we don't, it will put a black hole in our budget sheet.

[LA]

You were the one saying we couldn't have both. I disagree btw but it would mean very unpopular tax rises.

It would be hugely unpopular, and the tax rises would be huge.

Yes of course, my thinking was more along the line of it wouldn't be enough of a reason to choose welfare services to suffer over other possible cuts (I appreciate I didn't communicate that well). I think we could agree that the cost of EU membership should go before the NHS.

The NHS should ALWAYS come before EU membership.
We should leave the EU, that gives us more finances to use in the NHS and healthcare.

However, the NHS does require some major reform.

Oh that's the winning argument, when you have to resort to insult you've lost

It is not an insult, it is fact.

[LA]

Agreed; and the reason I won't vote tory. Well, that and the fact they want to bring back the hooray's fox hunting 'sport'.

Agreed. I was rushed into hospital this morning and given urgent treatment that took all day. I was only discharged because I agreed to go back tomorrow and see the consultant as an outpatient. Would I get that care without the NHS? Of course not! I could never afford it! Nor could I afford the 46 tablets I HAVE to take every day.

THINK about those of us NOT on an income to pay for private care, LA, and NOT healthy either. Not all of us are as fortunate as the tories.

I agree that Fox Hunting is atrocious and I expressed my displeasure to Mr Cameron, and the PPC for my town.

If England were to have an English Parliament, we could better control our finances like Scotland does.

[georgepopovic]

We've come a long way away from Miss Harman. Never mind, privatising NHS and the Beeb need an airing. It stands to reason that for as long as we expect treatment at aver-increasing cost, something has to give. When challenged on costs, the drug companies plead R&D and hospitals the cost of technology. Possibly justified, but who knows?

Privatisation is already happening through PFI and it ain't cheap. What we lose is proper medical care and we gain league tables populated by tick-box exercises orchestrated by armies of managers whose primary interests lie not in clinical care but their own jobs, salaries and government cash awards for doing admin. PFI is, in essence, a mortgage taken out with "service support" organisations whose only motivator is profit. I'm not against profit, only the stupidity of its origininating credo. Now that Alitstair Campbell is back, the Beeb's turn may come and it won't be pretty.