Sir Alex Ferguson explains why he and millions of others vote Labour

[Expounder]

Many of the younger generation and others some not so young are taken in by Cameron platitudes about how conservatives represent the whole of the British nation,"were all in this together". Dyed in the wool Tory supporters particularly on this forum are at a loss to understand why there are still millions of voters who support labour and keep demanding why this should be.

What they don't understand is that there is still a mine if tribal support for Labour in spite of mistakes made in it's 13 years in office. It's sometimes difficult to explain to younger voters why such a large number will never trust the Tories words about their new found sympathy for the masses. Forget the meaningless unfathomable arguments in the leaders debates from Cameron and Clegg which are only words, which are cheap and without substance, and is about who come over as the nicest personality.

In his article for the Daily Mirror Sir Alex puts into the simplest terms why the Tories will never convince the people who suffered under their regime in the 80s and 90s.also their parents and grandparents generations before both world wars who suffered at the hands of Tory administrations It's not very profound but it's from the heart and his words echo what is in the hearts of all voters who fear the very thought of a Tory victory and it's consequences. The mass of the people who some times find it difficult to express exactly what their real feelings are, are embodied in Sir Alex's views.

Please read the link:

Sir Alex Ferguson supports Labour and says David Cameron’s policies are ‘about helping his own sort’ - mirror.co.uk

[uncon]

Perhaps a lot of people don't want their years of support for the labour party rewarded with a personal insult from the leader? Just a thought.

[Expounder]

Perhaps a lot of people don't want their years of support for the labour party rewarded with a personal insult from the leader? Just a thought.

I'm not quite sure who or what your comment was referring to uncon. I was referring to all the older people who do support Labour, and quoted Alex Ferguson's views generally expressing the reason why millions of voters do support Labour. Their roots go deep and are more tribally loyal than younger voters, because of their past experiences of Tory governments. Most of the older laborites know whats in store for vulnerable people in society if Cameron wins. He will promise anything to get into office and somewhere down the line he will find the reasons to renege on them one by one.

Anyone in that group who votes Tory are turkeys voting for Xmas. Unfortunately in this age of the X factor personality cult politics have been turned into a popularity contest which now comes naturally to younger generations. who with respect uncon [and I really don't mean to be supercilious] haven't experienced Real poverty as many of the the older generations have. Older generations Memories of past Tory administrations haven't faded with time and in many cases have been handed down to their off spring with a vengeance.

But if Cameron does win an outright majority, the unpalatable learning curve of the younger working population about conservatism will start all over again. I refer you to Alex Ferguson's assessment of Labours last13 years in office which I believe is about right.

Regards....................Exp.

[uncon]

Take Cameron, Clegg and everyone else out of the equation and lets look at labour.

What are you voting for?

You can't be voting for the same thing you used to. The true reformists are gone and replaced by spin doctors. Are you voting for your history? because if so, you are voting for the historical actions of a party that has now rejected every value you hold. You may not have left the party, but it ran like hell away from you and judging from Browns performance today is still content to gather your votes and despise you at the same time.

This isn't about any other party, but your own who see you as gullible idiots.

[Expounder]

Take Cameron, Clegg and everyone else out of the equation and lets look at labour.

What are you voting for?

You can't be voting for the same thing you used to. The true reformists are gone and replaced by spin doctors. Are you voting for your history? because if so, you are voting for the historical actions of a party that has now rejected every value you hold. You may not have left the party, but it ran like hell away from you and judging from Browns performance today is still content to gather your votes and despise you at the same time.

This isn't about any other party, but your own who see you as gullible idiots.

It's idiots like you who are a danger to the democratic voting system. full of pontificating negative "I told you so" crap thanked by a Tory.

So who are you voting for, or dare I ask? I am anti Tory, my main aim is to keep then out at all costs, or do you in your wisdom think they are the answer?. Or are you so confused and angry, your judgment is clouded with personal hate.

[The Untalented Mr Ripley]

It's idiots like you who are a danger to the democratic voting system. full of pontificating negative "I told you so" crap thanked by a Tory.

So who are you voting for, or dare I ask? I am anti Tory, my main aim is to keep then out at all costs, or do you in your wisdom think they are the answer?. Or are you so confused and angry, your judgment is clouded with personal hate.

I'm concerned about mass immigration into the UK, oh, hang on - I must be a bigot, better not vote Labour, they wont want my bigotted vote.

Labour;, the party who have presided over the most corrupt Parliament since the time of the rotton boroughs to the extent that even the sitting Prime Minister was questioned by plod; Labour, the party who have swamped us with CCTV, overloaded us with needless criminal statutes, infringed and reduced our civil liberties and rights as citizens, lied about giving us a referendum, thrown £billions at public services with little to show for it. Perhaps Expounder you are so full of personal hatred towards the Tories that you cannot see how utterly useless, corrupt and incompetant the Labour Party is.

I don't know who I'll vote for, but it sure as hell won't be for the two-faced charisma-free zone that is Gordon Brown and his gang of TV and Public Relations spin-obsessed half-wits.

[Streetwalker]

Many of the younger generation and others some not so young are taken in by Cameron platitudes about how conservatives represent the whole of the British nation,"were all in this together". Dyed in the wool Tory supporters particularly on this forum are at a loss to understand why there are still millions of voters who support labour and keep demanding why this should be.

What they don't understand is that there is still a mine if tribal support for Labour in spite of mistakes made in it's 13 years in office. It's sometimes difficult to explain to younger voters why such a large number will never trust the Tories words about their new found sympathy for the masses. Forget the meaningless unfathomable arguments in the leaders debates from Cameron and Clegg which are only words, which are cheap and without substance, and is about who come over as the nicest personality.

In his article for the Daily Mirror Sir Alex puts into the simplest terms why the Tories will never convince the people who suffered under their regime in the 80s and 90s.also their parents and grandparents generations before both world wars who suffered at the hands of Tory administrations It's not very profound but it's from the heart and his words echo what is in the hearts of all voters who fear the very thought of a Tory victory and it's consequences. The mass of the people who some times find it difficult to express exactly what their real feelings are, are embodied in Sir Alex's views.

Please read the link:

Sir Alex Ferguson supports Labour and says David Cameron’s policies are ‘about helping his own sort’ - mirror.co.uk

Why would a very lucky ,over paid football team manager think anyone gives a damm what he thinks.The bloke is a cheating pillock. Ive no regard for the likes of Cameron,but the jock **** should keep his mouth shut and concentrate on getting his team to play with a bit of dignity instead of cheating their way through life. On second thoughts maybe thats why Liebour have signed him up

[The Untalented Mr Ripley]

Why would a very lucky ,over paid football team manager think anyone gives a damm what he thinks.The bloke is a cheating pillock. Ive no regard for the likes of Cameron,but the jock **** should keep his mouth shut and concentrate on getting his team to play with a bit of dignity instead of cheating their way through life. On second thoughts maybe thats why Liebour have signed him up

B*ll*cks! Sir Alex for PM!

[DTE]

I'm concerned about mass immigration into the UK, oh, hang on - I must be a bigot, better not vote Labour, they wont want my bigotted vote.

Labour;, the party who have presided over the most corrupt Parliament since the time of the rotton boroughs to the extent that even the sitting Prime Minister was questioned by plod; Labour, the party who have swamped us with CCTV, overloaded us with needless criminal statutes, infringed and reduced our civil liberties and rights as citizens, lied about giving us a referendum, thrown £billions at public services with little to show for it. Perhaps Expounder you are so full of personal hatred towards the Tories that you cannot see how utterly useless, corrupt and incompetant the Labour Party is.

I don't know who I'll vote for, but it sure as hell won't be for the two-faced charisma-free zone that is Gordon Brown and his gang of TV and Public Relations spin-obsessed half-wits.

Very difficult to argue with any of this. The only thing I would counter with is that it COULD be even worse under the tories. Considering they propose scrapping the baby allowance for households earning less than £16,000 a year whilst AT THE SAME TIME time proposing a cut in inheritance tax which will only benefit 2000 of the very richest families in the country, its pretty obvious where their priorities lie. Who deserves to be given the state's help, a child born into a poorer family, or one born into an incredibly wealthy one?

Coalition government is the only way forward IMO. If Labour get back in, after Iraq, after Blair, after the expenses scandal, after all the attempted coups, after the widespread corruption and selling of peerages, after 13 years pissing around with the education system with no discernable benefit, after cutting frontline NHS services and increasing middle management, after target driven policing, after the introduction of useless ASBOs, after selling off the gold, after presiding over the worst financial period since the despression, then there is something VERY VERY wrong.

Why would a very lucky ,over paid football team manager think anyone gives a damm what he thinks.The bloke is a cheating pillock. Ive no regard for the likes of Cameron,but the jock **** should keep his mouth shut and concentrate on getting his team to play with a bit of dignity instead of cheating their way through life. On second thoughts maybe thats why Liebour have signed him up

As a villa fan, I'm sick of ManU cheating their way to success too.

[The Untalented Mr Ripley]

Very difficult to argue with any of this. The only thing I would counter with is that it COULD be even worse under the tories. Considering they propose scrapping the baby allowance for households earning less than £16,000 a year whilst AT THE SAME TIME time proposing a cut in inheritance tax which will only benefit 2000 of the very richest families in the country, its pretty obvious where their priorities lie. Who deserves to be given the state's help, a child born into a poorer family, or one born into an incredibly wealthy one?

Yes, I fear that the Tories would be just as bad as Labour; as you have pointed out, the suspicion lingers that the Tories are still out to benefit their rich privileged friends.

Coalition government is the only way forward IMO. If Labour get back in, after Iraq, after Blair, after the expenses scandal, after all the attempted coups, after the widespread corruption and selling of peerages, after 13 years pissing around with the education system with no discernable benefit, after cutting frontline NHS services and increasing middle management, after target driven policing, after the introduction of useless ASBOs, after selling off the gold, after presiding over the worst financial period since the despression, then there is something VERY VERY wrong.

Couldn't agree more with you concerning coalition government. As for the possibility of Labour getting back in again after their glorious history of wastefulness and incompetence; just shows how strong the opposition is, or rather is not.

As a villa fan, I'm sick of ManU cheating their way to success too.

Aston who? That said, I would dearly like Martin O'Neill to be Utd's next manager after Sir Alex retires: he is a fantastic manager.

[Expounder]

Why would a very lucky ,over paid football team manager think anyone gives a damm what he thinks.The bloke is a cheating pillock. Ive no regard for the likes of Cameron,but the jock **** should keep his mouth shut and concentrate on getting his team to play with a bit of dignity instead of cheating their way through life. On second thoughts maybe thats why Liebour have signed him up

Well SW I'd rather have a working class man who in spite of his global success can still empathise with his past his people his and roots, and doesn't join the rich tax dodging callous Tories anti Labour chorus.

Cameron wheeled out "my names Michael Caine" the wingeing wooden excuse of an "actor" who complained in spite of his "acting abilities" L.o.l, he was being overlooked for a knighthood while other undeserving types were were being knighted. He went on so long they gave him one to shut him up.

They dished him up on the Tory platform and without an auto cue said the government was doing a good job, at least he got that right. They swiftly steered him to his seat before he done any more damage. I also remember some years ago when he demeaned and slagged of council tenants of which he was once one.

I've refrained from calling Michael Caine a **** as you have called Alex Ferguson, Cain's just two bit confused actor?. If labour had a role call of acting supporters it would win hands down against the Tories.

Although I've been a life long Arsenal fan I have respect for Alex Ferguson, he is no better or worse than any other club manager, most who do their best to gain advantage for their team. Name me one who doesn't?

[uncon]

It's idiots like you who are a danger to the democratic voting system. full of pontificating negative "I told you so" crap thanked by a Tory.

So who are you voting for, or dare I ask? I am anti Tory, my main aim is to keep then out at all costs, or do you in your wisdom think they are the answer?. Or are you so confused and angry, your judgment is clouded with personal hate.

The Guardian has now said they no longer support labour, but have come out for the lib dems.

'New' labour has taken less than fifteen years to become a dinosaur, Old labour was killed off and you sit here wondering how I will vote?

[Expounder]

The Guardian has now said they no longer support labour, but have come out for the lib dems.

'New' labour has taken less than fifteen years to become a dinosaur, Old labour was killed off and you sit here wondering how I will vote?

You don't have to say uncon, that's your prerogative, but it would be nice to know what corner you're sniping from apart from snide political anonymity. My opinions are an open book and I would never enter into political debate without stating my preference, you seem so far too churlish to declare where you stand. In any case the Guardian/Observer is likely to call for tactical voting to keep the Tories out.

I take though from what you have already said you will be you will be voting for one of the right wing parties, [which includes Cameron's Tories]. I hardly think you would vote Lib Dem which could mean a hung parliament especially if the Lib Dem voters vote tactically to keep Cameron out? This would mean a Lib/Lab coalition with new Labour leader which would push through P.R. Which would then mean the Tories or Labour would never be able to command an overwhelming commons majority again.

I hope I'm wrong and the latter is correct but I doubt it, as by doing so you could be keeping Labour in power albeit sharing it if they don't have an overall majority.

[ryoden]

Well SW I'd rather have a working class man who in spite of his global success can still empathise with his past his people his and roots

...and calls a solid Labour supporter a Bigot.

I have no great love for Conservative or Labour, to be honest I can't find a party that I wholly agree with (assuming that you take their promises as being real ones they will adhere to) but I have distanced myself from Labour ever since it became New Labour, it seems to me that they became everything which they railed against, smears, spin doctors, peers for favours, flipping houses and making money off the backs of the electorate. My current ward is run by Labour and to be honest I couldnt say whether they have done a great or terrible job which probably means they have been mediocre but the Labour candidate recently voted for the digital rights bill, which I consider to be somewhat anti free speech, that combined with everything else Labour have done over the past years in power (yes I accept that they have done some good things but on balance not enough) means my x will be going elsewhere.

I was leaning towards the liberals as I agree with a several of their policies but they are way too pro-EU for my liking so I will probably end up voting for the Conservatives as they (based on last years votes and despite the recent boundry changes) have the best chance of unseating labour there. They may be no better than Labour as you state and that is possible but also there is the possibility that they have changed, personally I am hoping and trying not to be cynical that this time around all the parties have finally realised that they cant take the public for granted and they have been taking the P*** for way to long.

That said, once the election is over it will probably be business as usual but whoever ends up in power I hope not.

[stewy]

Why would a very lucky ,over paid football team manager think anyone gives a damm what he thinks.The bloke is a cheating pillock. Ive no regard for the likes of Cameron,but the jock **** should keep his mouth shut and concentrate on getting his team to play with a bit of dignity instead of cheating their way through life. On second thoughts maybe thats why Liebour have signed him up

you may not like ferguson or his political views , but what is the point in labelling him a jock **** ??The best manager to come out of this country , but as usual hated because he is good at what he does!I respect him for being great at what he does and not forgetting his roots.Apart from that i have no real interest in his team or where he is from.I do find it interesting that despite his millions, he wont support the tories.
Dignity and cheating??" Show me a good loser and i`ll show you a loser"

[Expounder]

...and calls a solid Labour supporter a Bigot.

I have no great love for Conservative or Labour, to be honest I can't find a party that I wholly agree with (assuming that you take their promises as being real ones they will adhere to) but I have distanced myself from Labour ever since it became New Labour, it seems to me that they became everything which they railed against, smears, spin doctors, peers for favours, flipping houses and making money off the backs of the electorate. My current ward is run by Labour and to be honest I couldnt say whether they have done a great or terrible job which probably means they have been mediocre but the Labour candidate recently voted for the digital rights bill, which I consider to be somewhat anti free speech, that combined with everything else Labour have done over the past years in power (yes I accept that they have done some good things but on balance not enough) means my x will be going elsewhere.

I was leaning towards the liberals as I agree with a several of their policies but they are way too pro-EU for my liking so I will probably end up voting for the Conservatives as they (based on last years votes and despite the recent boundry changes) have the best chance of unseating labour there. They may be no better than Labour as you state and that is possible but also there is the possibility that they have changed, personally I am hoping and trying not to be cynical that this time around all the parties have finally realised that they cant take the public for granted and they have been taking the P*** for way to long.

That said, once the election is over it will probably be business as usual but whoever ends up in power I hope not.

ryoden, I'm not uncritical Labour who got too tied up with promoting finance over the last 13years. Labour has done some good things while in office but obviously not enough to to warrant enough of the electorate to continue with them for the next five years. I do belive lessons have been learned and a new leadership will emerge.

I think this election will be a watershed, and hopefully will result in P.R. being introduced. For this to happen there has to be a Lib/Lab coalition as the Tories have rejected the idea out of hand. I can't see Gordon Brown continuing long after the result unless he gets an out right majority which looks extemely unlikely. An Alistair Darling and Vince Cable think tank would be preferable to George Osbourne and the immediate indiscriminate swingeing cuts which the Tories will inact in spite of their nice words. They will get the job done, but with a hatchet instead if a scalpel.

[stewy]

ryoden, I'm not uncritical Labour who got too tied up with promoting finance over the last 13years. Labour has done some good things while in office but obviously not enough to to warrant enough of the electorate to continue with them for the next five years. I do belive lessons have been learned and a new leadership will emerge.

I think this election will be a watershed, and hopefully will result in P.R. being introduced. For this to happen there has to be a Lib/Lab coalition as the Tories have rejected the idea out of hand. I can't see Gordon Brown continuing long after the result unless he gets an out right majority which looks extemely unlikely. An Alistair Darling and Vince Cable think tank would be preferable to George Osbourne and the immediate indiscriminate swingeing cuts which the Tories will inact in spite of their nice words. They will get the job done, but with a hatchet instead if a scalpel.

didn`t norman lamont once say unemployment is a price worth paying??One thing is sure expounder , we will pay (the common man ) for this disaster if the tories win as always.It wont be them or their despicable friends in big business and banking.

[ryoden]

I think this election will be a watershed, and hopefully will result in P.R. being introduced. For this to happen there has to be a Lib/Lab coalition as the Tories have rejected the idea out of hand.

I agree that a coalition government could be interesting, I am not sure why Cameron rejected it out of hand and I suspect that it will either turn out to be a clever move (in that it convinces enough people to give enough of a majority) or a rather stupid one (in the case of a hung parliament where he is left out in the cold, assuming Labour kicks Gordo into touch.)

[Grimble Gromble]

didn`t norman lamont once say unemployment is a price worth paying??One thing is sure expounder , we will pay (the common man ) for this disaster if the tories win as always.It wont be them or their despicable friends in big business and banking.

Stewy, your absolutely right, and just to ad more to your quote, is it really any wonder why some big business owners and chairmen and women are backing the Tories plans, NOT to raise National Insurance. saying it will cost jobs. Probably the same people who said the the minimum wage would do the same. Guess what. it did'nt.

Their frightened to death of paying more tax as both Labour and the Lib Dems have plans to hit em.

So while Cameron is trumpeting the meassage quote"Come with us, we can bring about change together"end quote. As usual, he's only talking about the high earners, the very same who would be safe from the tax rises. Same old right wing capitalism, what's new or changeable about that ?

[Streetwalker]

Stewy, your absolutely right, and just to ad more to your quote, is it really any wonder why some big business owners and chairmen and women are backing the Tories plans, NOT to raise National Insurance. saying it will cost jobs. Probably the same people who said the the minimum wage would do the same. Guess what. it did'nt.

Their frightened to death of paying more tax as both Labour and the Lib Dems have plans to hit em.

So while Cameron is trumpeting the meassage quote"Come with us, we can bring about change together"end quote. As usual, he's only talking about the high earners, the very same who would be safe from the tax rises. Same old right wing capitalism, what's new or changeable about that ?

The high earners that you speak of ,Bosses,chairman and the like would in all probability use the services of a decent accountant and pay little tax anyway.The threats of "hitting them hard" are laughable.Try to take too much and they will put it offshore.

[Grimble Gromble]

ryoden, I'm not uncritical Labour who got too tied up with promoting finance over the last 13years. Labour has done some good things while in office but obviously not enough to to warrant enough of the electorate to continue with them for the next five years. I do belive lessons have been learned and a new leadership will emerge.

Exp, Labour have done and brought about some amazing things in the last 13 years which they can be extremely proud of, and may still be able to do so from May 7

You are of course right that finance has played too much of a major role in building our economy, but now atleast we are well placed to lead the world in future innovative industries including digital, renewable energies and bio-technology. Which could create millions of jobs for future generations.

Labour, have not got everything right, runiing a country is not an exact science.

Gordon Brown has one of the biggest brains in World politics but doesn't pocess the shiney front of Tony Blair. Personality and spin rather than substance and policy has played a major role during this campagn, particulary the TV debates. It's no wonder Labour trail behind. But when the voter weighs it up in that booth, I do believe the opinion polls will be somewhat defied when many will mark the X in the right spot.

[Major Sinic]

didn`t norman lamont once say unemployment is a price worth paying??One thing is sure expounder , we will pay (the common man ) for this disaster if the tories win as always.It wont be them or their despicable friends in big business and banking.

Good to see you posting again Stewy.

It won't surprise you know I disagree with your post. First of all there is no evidence whatsoever that only the 'common man' will pay for the borrowings of the Labour Government, if the Tories win the General Election. This is simply fear mongering put out by Labour and their increasingly desperate supporters. The more that government borrows the worse the circumstances will be for all of those in our society when we have to pay it back. Secondly however painful the measures, it is the Tories who have always pulled the country out of the brown stuff when Labour have put us in it. Make no mistake whichever party wins we are all in for serious grief.

Secondly there is an unfortunate tendency of most you lefties to tarnish all Tories, all bankers and all directors of big business with the same brush. This is patently unfair. Only a tiny proportion of those employed in banking and financial services had any responsibility for the banking crisis, and the value of the taxpayers investment, or if you prefer bail out, in Lloyds and RBS now exceeds the amount put in. Equally you will find far more tax evasion amongst the self employed than in big business, if only because regulation is more lax because the amounts are smaller.

The erroneous battle cry of the left that Tories only represent the interests of the rich, and that all bankers and businessmen are nasty and greedy is no more accurate than the view among some Tories that all all Labour supporters are lazy, feckless benefit cheats who choose not to work, and Labour lets them get away with it. There is a kernel of truth in each, but overall each is a lie.

[stewy]

Good to see you posting again Stewy.

It won't surprise you know I disagree with your post. First of all there is no evidence whatsoever that only the 'common man' will pay for the borrowings of the Labour Government, if the Tories win the General Election. This is simply fear mongering put out by Labour and their increasingly desperate supporters. The more that government borrows the worse the circumstances will be for all of those in our society when we have to pay it back. Secondly however painful the measures, it is the Tories who have always pulled the country out of the brown stuff when Labour have put us in it. Make no mistake whichever party wins we are all in for serious grief.

Secondly there is an unfortunate tendency of most you lefties to tarnish all Tories, all bankers and all directors of big business with the same brush. This is patently unfair. Only a tiny proportion of those employed in banking and financial services had any responsibility for the banking crisis, and the value of the taxpayers investment, or if you prefer bail out, in Lloyds and RBS now exceeds the amount put in. Equally you will find far more tax evasion amongst the self employed than in big business, if only because regulation is more lax because the amounts are smaller.

The erroneous battle cry of the left that Tories only represent the interests of the rich, and that all bankers and businessmen are nasty and greedy is no more accurate than the view among some Tories that all all Labour supporters are lazy, feckless benefit cheats who choose not to work, and Labour lets them get away with it. There is a kernel of truth in each, but overall each is a lie.

ha ha thanks major , you are the most un tory conservative i have ever come across.

[The Untalented Mr Ripley]

The erroneous battle cry of the left that Tories only represent the interests of the rich, and that all bankers and businessmen are nasty and greedy is no more accurate than the view among some Tories that all all Labour supporters are lazy, feckless benefit cheats who choose not to work, and Labour lets them get away with it. There is a kernel of truth in each, but overall each is a lie.

I fully agree with you Major, albeit I still can't quite bring myself to vote Conservative. That said, I greatly admire the work of Iain Duncan Smith and the Centre for Social Justice; way more sensible, progressive and radical proposals than anything we've seen from Labour or the Lib Dems for years.

[Grimble Gromble]

The high earners that you speak of ,Bosses,chairman and the like would in all probability use the services of a decent accountant and pay little tax anyway.The threats of "hitting them hard" are laughable.Try to take too much and they will put it offshore.

Accountants are a brainy bunch but they can't defy gravity. Some may also benefit with putting it offshore and deferring payment but eventially the tax WILL have to be paid. So I don't think it's laughable.

[stewy]

I fully agree with you Major, albeit I still can't quite bring myself to vote Conservative.

good for you dad , new you were a decent sort despite all those hurtfull comments

[The Untalented Mr Ripley]

good for you dad , new you were a decent sort despite all those hurtfull comments

When I eventually track you down Stewy, you're going over my knee for a good spanking , unless you like that sort of thing of course.

[stewy]

When I eventually track you down Stewy, you're going over my knee for a good spanking , unless you like that sort of thing of course.

dont bite the hand that feeds you dad. I `ll look after you in your dotage

[Major Sinic]

Accountants are a brainy bunch but they can't defy gravity. Some may also benefit with putting it offshore and deferring payment but eventially the tax WILL have to be paid. So I don't think it's laughable.

There is no WILL have to be paid about it. For most of the last the thirteen years Labour have been the tax friend of the 'super-rich'. Even now there are perfectly legal tax mitigation schemes introduced by Labour which should make the mouth of anyone on PAYE water.

Just to touch on a few, Private equity investment, where 'salaries' can be paid as capital gains at 18% with no NI, considerable capital, income and inheritance tax concessions on agricultural enterprise and land, tax concessions on some private and family companies, no capital tax liabilities on works of art unless part of your main trade. Not all of these tax concessions are necessarily bad, but they are all open massively to abuse, and were all either introduced or expanded by this Labour Government.

So in reality it is Labour that has been the real friend of bankers and the super-rich. During the same period, I recall that taxation of the average worker has increased by some 6% when both direct and indirect taxes are taken into account

[Expounder]

There is no WILL have to be paid about it. For most of the last the thirteen years Labour have been the tax friend of the 'super-rich'. Even now there are perfectly legal tax mitigation schemes introduced by Labour which should make the mouth of anyone on PAYE water.

Just to touch on a few, Private equity investment, where 'salaries' can be paid as capital gains at 18% with no NI, considerable capital, income and inheritance tax concessions on agricultural enterprise and land, tax concessions on some private and family companies, no capital tax liabilities on works of art unless part of your main trade. Not all of these tax concessions are necessarily bad, but they are all open massively to abuse, and were all either introduced or expanded by this Labour Government.

So in reality it is Labour that has been the real friend of bankers and the super-rich. During the same period, I recall that taxation of the average worker has increased by some 6% when both direct and indirect taxes are taken into account

The answer to this in a hung parliament is a Lib/Lab coalition which is a majority consensus where tax policies on both parties will have to be incorporated.along with other policies on which they are close. This coalition should remain in office long enough to pass legislation on P.R which is what a vast majority of voters want. An election should follow.

[Major Sinic]

The answer to this in a hung parliament is a Lib/Lab coalition which is a majority consensus where tax policies on both parties will have to be incorporated.along with other policies on which they are close. This coalition should remain in office long enough to pass legislation on P.R which is what a vast majority of voters want. An election should follow.

Personally I could go along with that except for the /Lab bit. After thirteen years of waste and profligacy,lies and obfuscation, and arrogance and hubris by Labour, the thought of Labour being in government in any capacity, even as the Liberal Democrats junior partner, would stick in the throat of the 50% or so of the population who won't vote for either Labour or the Liberal Democrats. Indeed many voters will vote Tory rather than Liberal Democrat simply because they are not willing to see Labour in power in any form.

If you believe in proportional representation Expounder, you will no doubt completely disapprove of Labour's support of AV, a voting system wholly in their favour, which masquerades as proportional representation but is certain to create a comparable lack of democracy as FPTP.

[Expounder]

Personally I could go along with that except for the /Lab bit. After thirteen years of waste and profligacy,lies and obfuscation, and arrogance and hubris by Labour, the thought of Labour being in government in any capacity, even as the Liberal Democrats junior partner, would stick in the throat of the 50% or so of the population who won't vote for either Labour or the Liberal Democrats. Indeed many voters will vote Tory rather than Liberal Democrat simply because they are not willing to see Labour in power in any form.

If you believe in proportional representation Expounder, you will no doubt completely disapprove of Labour's support of AV, a voting system wholly in their favour, which masquerades as proportional representation but is certain to create a comparable lack of democracy as FPTP.

I will accept any form of P.R. that a Lib/Lab coalition agrees on, it's up up to the two parties to pass some form of P.R. legislation whether it be a compromise by the Lib Dems On AV or the type of P.R. that the Lib Dems want. The point is if there is a hung parliament there would be no point the Lib Dems linking up with Cameron as he has made it quite clear he wants fptp.

After so many years in the wilderness the Lib Dems are not going to let slip the opportunity of using a hung parliament in which they would share power to get some kind of P.R. Your description of Labour is not shared by a few million voters. Because, what they haven't forgotten [including many Liberal voters] are the years of misery under the last Tory administration. Brown had a bad and dark period, the Tories had a flukey 20% lead in the polls on the back of Brown's misfortunes. this lead has dissipated to a few percentage points in the polls. doesn't tell you anything?

What is needed now is tactical voting by Labour voters in Tory LibDem marginals where Labour always comes a poor third and also Liberal tactical voting in Tory Labour marginals where Liberals always come a poor third. They both have an incentive to do this as they both don't want Cameron in office, and they are both agreed on the principle of some type of P.R.

I watched Jon Snow's discussion program last night and the one thing that stood out was that all of the audience when asked if they wanted a hung parliament voted yes. It stands to reason if there is a hung parliament that it's more likely to be a Lib/Lab coalition than a Tory one for the reasons I've already mentioned. So it stands to reason all those who want a hung parliament are prepared countenance Labour in coalition with the Lib Dems which would form a majority government.

In spite of all you say about Labour, there are still millions who recognise that Britain today is a vastly improved country in many ways than when the Tory wreckers left in 1997 that's why they are not flocking to support Camerons duplicitous banner of the "Big Society" which is a meaningless big con.

[uncon]

You don't have to say uncon, that's your prerogative, but it would be nice to know what corner you're sniping from apart from snide political anonymity. My opinions are an open book and I would never enter into political debate without stating my preference, you seem so far too churlish to declare where you stand. In any case the Guardian/Observer is likely to call for tactical voting to keep the Tories out.

I take though from what you have already said you will be you will be voting for one of the right wing parties, [which includes Cameron's Tories]. I hardly think you would vote Lib Dem which could mean a hung parliament especially if the Lib Dem voters vote tactically to keep Cameron out? This would mean a Lib/Lab coalition with new Labour leader which would push through P.R. Which would then mean the Tories or Labour would never be able to command an overwhelming commons majority again.

I hope I'm wrong and the latter is correct but I doubt it, as by doing so you could be keeping Labour in power albeit sharing it if they don't have an overall majority.

no I don't have to say. That is my perogative.

But the fact is that I am going to test everything to see if it blows up and frankly Labour has scared the living **** out of me lately. Every time you let Bagpuss out from the attic I end up feeling dreadfull for the poor sod, and that doesn't equal a vote. It would be a kindness to retire him. Whelan can't do a fart without tweeting it and even he expressed his dismay about the Rochester incident. Ed Balls can't stop blinking and bullying and apparently could be the new leader and a tory candidate can cure homosexuality while another is happy to support the no gays in my B&B brigade. Nick Clegg whitters endlessly and the more he talks the less he says. he behaves like the prom queen deciding who he wants to date.

Best of all the Daily politics have started to talk to cucumbers as an indication of results! Have you seen the size of those cucumbers? Mine only germinated a few weeks ago...and these have fruits on them! I am sick of being lied to like this!

[Expounder]

no I don't have to say. That is my perogative.

But the fact is that I am going to test everything to see if it blows up and frankly Labour has scared the living **** out of me lately. Every time you let Bagpuss out from the attic I end up feeling dreadfull for the poor sod, and that doesn't equal a vote. It would be a kindness to retire him. Whelan can't do a fart without tweeting it and even he expressed his dismay about the Rochester incident. Ed Balls can't stop blinking and bullying and apparently could be the new leader and a tory candidate can cure homosexuality while another is happy to support the no gays in my B&B brigade. Nick Clegg whitters endlessly and the more he talks the less he says. he behaves like the prom queen deciding who he wants to date.

Best of all the Daily politics have started to talk to cucumbers as an indication of results! Have you seen the size of those cucumbers? Mine only germinated a few weeks ago...and these have fruits on them! I am sick of being lied to like this!

Don't know then?

[joethfc]

Labour and Tories are so arrogant that they think they can just win elections by telling us how bad the other ones are - do yourself a favour and don't vote for them.

And I think it is very patronsing to say younger people just vote on superficial factors, we do need a good leader but that comes a long way behind a good set of policies.

[Midas]

And I think it is very patronsing to say younger people just vote on superficial factors, we do need a good leader but that comes a long way behind a good set of policies.

It might be a bit of a generalisation, but it's an observation which does have an element of truth behind it though - and I'll quite hold my hands up to saying that there are many exceptions - but stereotypical views do always come from fact somewhere down the line.

[joethfc]

It might be a bit of a generalisation, but it's an observation which does have an element of truth behind it though - and I'll quite hold my hands up to saying that there are many exceptions - but stereotypical views do always come from fact somewhere down the line.

I don't deny some people have taken a presidential attitude to this election (as they have done for a long time) I just don't believe it is largely young voters who have done so unless we define young as under 50.

[Midas]

I don't deny some people have taken a presidential attitude to this election (as they have done for a long time) I just don't believe it is largely young voters who have done so unless we define young as under 50.

My own basis for thinking that the voting age should be raised rather than lowered, isn't based so much on this attitude, or on the general intelligence level of today's youth, but far more on life experience. Please correct me if you think I'm wrong, but I don't really see how people can vote with any degree of confidence on what political party they wish to run the country unless they've had several years out in the workplace, getting a taste of what real life is like and how the political decisions they make actually affect people.

[joethfc]

No one person can know all of the consequences of every policy, David Cameron certainly doesn't. I think raising the voting age would further promote the idea that politics is a minority sport. I also think you seriously underestimate the interest many young people have in politics and the optimism of youth (although it can cause naivety in some votes) makes it more likely they will actually read manifestos and vote on policies, unlike many of the older, more cynical voters who just stick to what they know whilst saying "they are all a load of ***"

I think politics being more central in education would be a step in the right direction though.

[uncon]

Don't know then?

I'm only using the quote to make it clear that I am primarily typing to you.

Whats going on with your party? You have obviously supported them through thick and thin and believe that they are the best option for ALL the people rather than just some of the people. Do you never feel let down that the party that created such wonderful things as the NHS and Welfare state, then progressed to ignore the Jenkins report, flipped homes to gain just for themselves and then created spin doctors to spread lies and **** about others? Isn't it time to stop looking at other parties now and change your own?