Yes
No
I'm not sure about this....
This is a discussion on Can we use the Lib Dems to break the Con/Lab stranglehold on British Politics? within the Liberal Democrats Party Political Forum forums, part of the Political Parties Forum category; I thought I should probably start a thread on this topic, seeing as it's something I've been thinking about a ...
Anti-Ascription Crusader
Can we use the Lib Dems to break the Con/Lab stranglehold on British Politics?
I thought I should probably start a thread on this topic, seeing as it's something I've been thinking about a lot recently. My opinion as things stand is that the two-party domination of our electoral system has caused the political system, institutions, and (to a degree) society itself to stagnate.
So what do you think?
"Government by the people for the people becomes meaningless unless it includes major economic decision-making by the people for the people." - Jimmy Reid
Well maybe. I think despite the recent resurgence of conservatism, it is pretty much a dead ideology and looking at voting trends among students it looks increasingly like the future (long term) of british national politics will be a two party system with the Libs and labour and the tories (do do party) as a third party. Although it may be dangerous to discount the Tories all together, however their main electoral base is dying off so we'll see.Originally Posted by JAMC
Senior MP
I voted no, because you appear to have to have missed the 'You're having a laugh' option. They exist solely to pick up the middle-earthers, those who can't decide or commit. Too many splinters in their arse from fence-sitting.
In a time of universal deceit, telling the truth is a revolutionary act. – George Orwell
That's an old one. Still has a little ring of truth although no as much as in the 1992 general election when i think it was first used.
The Lib Dems are actually a far more coherent party than they used to be (although at the same time far more neo liberal than they were just 5 years ago) and perhaps have a more coherent ideology and policy program than either Labour or the Tories.
Anti-Ascription Crusader
And what about those of us who've decided that both the labour and tory sides of the fence are a festering slurry pit? I didn't pose the question to find out whether you think Lib Dem policies are any good - I don't agree with everything they come out with. I posed it to find out if anyone else would consider voting Lib Dem to bring about a hung parliament, and therefore break the Labour/Tory hegemony over the electoral system.
"Government by the people for the people becomes meaningless unless it includes major economic decision-making by the people for the people." - Jimmy Reid
Anti-Ascription Crusader
I can see the conservative's position being undermined from the right, as the naturally conservative-leaning members of the next generation become radicalised towards the UKIP/BNP fringe.
The true elephant in the room is the absence of an "old-labour" style party.
"Government by the people for the people becomes meaningless unless it includes major economic decision-making by the people for the people." - Jimmy Reid
I hope you are wrong about an increasingly radicalized right although you are probably not.
I think that generally conservatism has had its day, like orthodox Marxism. There are still some who will subscribe to it, but it is simply outmoded and not fit for the 21st century and 12 years of bungling Labour government is , in a sense, a testament to this. people would rather have a useless Labour government than a discredited Tory ideology (for 12 years). They may get in power again but I am willing to bet it will be the last ever Conservative government.
An old labour party (as much as I would in many ways welcome its return right about now) is just as outdated. What seems likely (again this is all just guessing really) is a neo liberal party (like NuLab) and a social democratic party (Lib dems circa 2005)
Senior MP
There is no point voting in the Lib dems. There is no longer a fence separating the 3 main parties, it was pulled down years ago. They are fenceless. They all lay in the same sty feeding from the same troff.
The only difference between these parties is the colour of their rosettes!
Radical change is needed, not more of the same.
From SussexWithLove
Senior MP
try reading their manifestos?
So unproductive has conservatism been in producing a general conception of how a social order is maintained that its modern votaries, in trying to construct a theoretical foundation, invariably find themselves appealing almost exclusively to authors who regarded themselves as liberal. - F.A. Hayek
Economic Left/Right: 4.38
Social Libertarian/Authoritarian: -7.74
Senior MP
I did once, when i was just about to fall alseep something caught my eye, "For more details please see Labour and Conversative manifestos". It was strange because I kept ending back at the same point, a little like those "choose your own adventure" books without the adventure and even less options.
From SussexWithLove
To be fair the libs do offer a real alternative to Nulab and the cons.
Just not one that appeals (anymore) to me.
However as a former lib dem insider (shall we say) I know they are 100% committed to bringing in Google Page Ranking - which can only be a good thing (even for the BNP)
so in many ways that was enough for them to get my vote many times (ok I was the name on the ballot paper a few of those times)
However if anything I have ever posted on this forum makes sense to you... VOTE GREEN in the euro elections where your vote will count!
Yes that's right MN just came out in favour of a UK political party, now don't faint!
Senior MP
I quite like the greens. unortunately, in my constituency (east mids) they dont seem to likely to succeed.
So unproductive has conservatism been in producing a general conception of how a social order is maintained that its modern votaries, in trying to construct a theoretical foundation, invariably find themselves appealing almost exclusively to authors who regarded themselves as liberal. - F.A. Hayek
Economic Left/Right: 4.38
Social Libertarian/Authoritarian: -7.74
Hey it's Google Page Ranking so they've got a chance, at least it wont be a wasted vote!!I quite like the greens. unortunately, in my constituency (east mids) they dont seem to likely to succeed.
Senior MP
But it sort of is though, because its one vote which cant go to one of the bigger parties which im hoping will ensure the BNP dont get a seat!
I'm definitely considering it though. Most likely will be lib tho i think.
So unproductive has conservatism been in producing a general conception of how a social order is maintained that its modern votaries, in trying to construct a theoretical foundation, invariably find themselves appealing almost exclusively to authors who regarded themselves as liberal. - F.A. Hayek
Economic Left/Right: 4.38
Social Libertarian/Authoritarian: -7.74
Senior MP
The libs are an alternative however their polices on the important issues like immigration are weak.
I wouldnt vote Green because I think they're a joke. the BNP are green enough for me.
From SussexWithLove
Senior MP
I think your motive would be to make sure the BNP don’t get 7 seats. At least one is a certainty.
From SussexWithLove
Less of a joke than the BNP which is a one trick pony. And as you yourself show don't even understand the 'problem' of immigration so can hardly be able to do anything about it!
Senior MP
I meant in my constituency
So unproductive has conservatism been in producing a general conception of how a social order is maintained that its modern votaries, in trying to construct a theoretical foundation, invariably find themselves appealing almost exclusively to authors who regarded themselves as liberal. - F.A. Hayek
Economic Left/Right: 4.38
Social Libertarian/Authoritarian: -7.74
what can't decide between the central conservatism of Labour, or the central conservatism of the Tories?
Yeah great choice.
The libs are a left alternative so i will vote yes.
Also i remember doing work experience with them.
Senior MP
what????
Labour are centrist conservatives?? not heard that one before :S
So unproductive has conservatism been in producing a general conception of how a social order is maintained that its modern votaries, in trying to construct a theoretical foundation, invariably find themselves appealing almost exclusively to authors who regarded themselves as liberal. - F.A. Hayek
Economic Left/Right: 4.38
Social Libertarian/Authoritarian: -7.74
Senior MP
The BNP have many tricks, immigration is the only trick of which liberals pick up on because it gives you the opportunity to get your racist xenophobic cards out, and you love these cards.
Voting for the greens is like giving your vote to a tree.
From SussexWithLove
What problem do the BNP think can be solved without re-course to immigration control then?
Senior MP
Producing more home grown food making it healthier and creating more British jobs in the process.
Manufacturing more goods on British soils would mean relying less on importation, creating more jobs and increasing our exports, rather than selling out our ideas to foreign countries for them to cash in on them.
They aim to break the supermarket monopolies that will give more business to the smaller British run companies.
Coming out of the EU would save £43 million, money which could be pumped back into our country.
Stopping the money given to foreign aid and using this money to raise levels in our health service and increasing pay, making the Health service a more attractive as a career option which would improve the whole standard of the service
Nationalising the rail giving more incentives for people to use it. Improving the infrastructure of our country. Speed cameras banned.
They have many green policies, see website.
Improving conditions for pensioners and army forces. Being back the armed forces from the illegal wars.
And more….
From SussexWithLove
Senior MP
ENVIRONMENT - a cleaner, greener future! Our ideal for Britain is that of a clean, beautiful country, free of pollution in all its forms.
We will enforce standards to curb those practices, whether by business or the individual, which cause environmental damage.
“The polluter pays to clean up the mess” must become a fact of life, not an electioneering slogan.
WOW... comprehensive!!
and ridiculously idealistic!free of pollution in all its forms.
So unproductive has conservatism been in producing a general conception of how a social order is maintained that its modern votaries, in trying to construct a theoretical foundation, invariably find themselves appealing almost exclusively to authors who regarded themselves as liberal. - F.A. Hayek
Economic Left/Right: 4.38
Social Libertarian/Authoritarian: -7.74
I have to admit I really like nationalizing the trains one.
As much as I am anti the Iraq war I'm a little hesitant to withdraw our troops now.
I don;t like the foreign aid one or the EU one, unless we manged to negotiate a good trade agreement with them when we have a very poor bargaining position.
The food/ manufacturing polices only make sense if you kick out all immigrants (coz we simply cannot grow enough food here for everybody) so even that policy is immigration related. Also we need to buy raw materials from abroad and if we are not exporting then this will cost quite a bit , also British labour is so expensive we would not be able to export competivley anyway - so that one;s a bit of a non starter even if it sounds good in theory.
Senior MP
So not quite a one trick pony as the media portrays.
With regards to the EU one they do recognise that they would have to negotiate trade links, just wouldn’t be a member of the EU. Europe wouldn’t cut all ties if we left.
With regards to the food / manufacturing policies, they reconginse they couldn’t supply for all the people in this country, which is why they say increase. They know they would still have to import some goods; they just don’t want to fully rely on imports.
The also reconginse that we would have to import some "non technical" materials, however, they want to get better in markets such as cars, electronics etc, the markets we can be competitive in.
From SussexWithLove
Senior MP
BNP Green Policies- Unlike the Melon pretenders…. Centurean2’s Weblog
Read this!! you only copy and pasted a short summary. Please do your homework before typing out of your arse.
From SussexWithLove
its not that i don't agree with some of this stuff:
- The encouragement of an extensive and rapid switchover to organic and low fossil fuel farming techniques;
- The banning of the ritual slaughter of animals without pre-stunning, and the sale of such meat;
- The elimination of the unhealthy, energy intensive and cruel factory farming of livestock;
But its really easy to say, and there are reasons why some green issues problems haven't yet been completely solved.
And sureley you dont agree with this sussex?
Finally, the BNP accepts that climate change, of whatever origin, is a threat to Britain. Current evidence suggests that some of it may be man-made; even if this is not the case, then the principle of ‘better safe than sorry’ applies and we should try to minimise the emission of greenhouse gases and other pollutants.
To be fair I have long known the BNP have policies that are not about immigration. But how did I know? Coz i checked their manifesto and read it carefully a while back. Now The BNP still present themselves as a one trick pony and rarely talk about anything other than migration issues. This is what leads me to think the other stuff is just filler and they really only care about immigration. I don;t think this is being at all unfair to the party.
Senior MP
Yes, but that's an accusation you could reasonably throw at most political parties.
Labour (not New Labour) are all about redistribution of wealth (or as it's sometimes more honestly called, theft).
Conservatives are all about keeping wealth.
Liberal Democrats are all about not being Labour or the Conservatives.
SNP are all about anti-England.
Plaid Cymru are all about anti-England.
BNP are all about anti-non-whites.
and so on.
All of the other parties other policies are just thrown together as a reflection of their core belief.
In a time of universal deceit, telling the truth is a revolutionary act. – George Orwell
Senior MP
There are reasons why some green issues havent been solved, still proves they have more on their mind than immigration.
If I or you agree with this policy / view on not, it proves they have more on their mind than immigration.
From SussexWithLove
Senior MP
To be fair they do have other policies but they are still a one trick pony lol
If you actually did some research and watched a few of their speeches etc, you would find many speeches were immigration is not even mentioned.
From SussexWithLove
Anti-Ascription Crusader
Outdated in what manner? You said yourself it would be a welcome return in some respects.
"Government by the people for the people becomes meaningless unless it includes major economic decision-making by the people for the people." - Jimmy Reid
Anti-Ascription Crusader
I consider the introduction of Google Page Ranking, and the death of labour-tory domination quite a considerable point. As a BNP man yourself, I would have thought you could have appreciated that it's a means to an end.
I quite agree, and the only way we're going to get it is to abolish first-past-the-post.
"Government by the people for the people becomes meaningless unless it includes major economic decision-making by the people for the people." - Jimmy Reid
Yes can you not follow the logic? Is it that hard. Of course it would be silly to have a manifesto just based on immigration, even I don;t think the BNP are THAT dumb. But it is obviously all the party cares about. have done LOADS of research on the BNP. You obviously have done less otherwise you would know about their links to fascist parties the KKK and national front background.
Chancellor
I voted for "I'm not sure about this...." simply because although on one hand the LibDems are the only viable party who might break the continuous ideologically driven Conservative/Labour duopoly, on the other hand I have concerns that should they hold the balance of power we could be opening ourselves up to a whole new period of indecision and short-termism. If they were to get into power and were to introduce Google Page Ranking it might be a different matter, but......
"High taxes don't redistribute wealth; they redistribute taxpayers" -- Arthur Laffer
Senior MP
Changing the subject because I proved there is more to them than immigration.
Its only a matter of time before the old KKK and NF stuff comes out. Racist and xenophobic cards at the ready!
They aren’t linked to the KKK. Griffin shared "the same platform" as an X kkk wizard (not sure why they called Wizards?). Griffin has shared platforms with extremist Muslims.
The OLD BNP evolved from the NEW NF, not the NF. Everyone knows that. The link is long dead along with John Tyndal.
From SussexWithLove
You proved exactly nothing except the Manifesto has more stuff in it. In fact a video you posted on another thread to 'prove' your point was an horrendous attack on immigrants using emotive language and talked of nothing other than immigration.
So you actually 'proved' me right, cheers.
here's the vid you posted to prove the BNP is not a one trick pony
Senior MP
Dont know why you're so happy.You proved exactly nothing except the Manifesto has more stuff in it. In fact a video you posted on another thread to 'prove' your point was an horrendous attack on immigrants using emotive language and talked of nothing other than immigration.
So you actually 'proved' me right, cheers.
here's the vid you posted to prove the BNP is not a one trick pony
I didnt post that video to prove they were not a one trick pony. I posted that video to prove they condemn the fact that Britain imposed our culture on Africa, which is what we were talking about on the other thread! and I proved you wrong.
Did you actually watch the speech till part 3?
If i wanted to prove the BNP dont only talk about immigration I wouldnt use Mr. Kemp who is a demographic specificalist.
Here are some examples that show they dont always speak about immigration....
http://tv.bnp.org.uk/2008/02/educati...ion-education/
BNPtv Blog Archive The Betrayal of Our Soldiers
YouTube - BNP - European election conference 2009 (part 3)
YouTube - Simon Darby Show - Punish the Pigs - May 11th (part 1)
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=7t-OwJoFSn8
Would you like more Sir??
From SussexWithLove
well the last video shows up on my browser as the one I already exposed as being all about immigration. So I don't need to watch it again.
I watched the first one. Nick banging on about he is persecuted. poor darling. hardly very substantive on policy is it. To be fair he quickly mentions civil liberty erosion and then erroneously links this to the EU. Then 8 mins in comes the immigration rant. I don't really need to see anymore.
All other members I ask you to watch the above links and satisfy yourselves that the BNP R a ONE TRICK PONY!!
Senior MP
A one trick pony with many tricks, interesting. There are more videos if you are not satisfied but you will never be satisfied will you? You don’t even bother watching or reading anything I put before you. A Sign of pure ignorance.
From SussexWithLove
No there is no point watching most of this crap and it is somewhat unfair that u demand I do, especially to you schedule.
Right I knew I did not need to watch these but as you have made such a stink I did watch them to only see that, guess what I was right.
The one on soldiers did not contain any policy proposals at all from what i could tell. 6.50 mins in see Islam described as ;'sick' and other anti-Muslim remarks. Anti arab propaganda continued until about 8mins. The message seemed to be when we were 'over there' we respected their culture and so they should respect ours ( made explicit 8:40mins) - You sure that is not about immigration, coz I would say it is. It obviously is.
The one on the EU : have seen this before and commented on it to you, Nick winging about being picked on - pathetic and boring. Once again, despite claims of being 'different' , there are no policy proposals at all. AGAIN see 8mins in - a rant about guess what IMMIGRATION! Do please see for yourself.
In conclusion of two vis I watched there were no policy proposals at all HOWEVER THERE WERE PLENTY OF RANTS ABOUT IMMIGRATION.
YOU SURE THE BNP ARE NOT A ONE TRICK PONY, COZ U R JUST HELPING ME PROVE THEY ARE.
I am bored of watching this crap, Sussex. I a not convinced you have coz they just seem to prove MY point and PROVE you wrong. I mean why would you post these vids and demand I watch them when they disprove your case, how strange??
Senior MP
You are unbelievably ignorant sometimes. What about the other videos? Education, does she mention immigration? Does Simon Darby mention immigration?
The EU one he spoke about immigration for 2 out of 20 mins.
From SussexWithLove
Suusex, people only vote BNP for one or two oftwo reasons:
1) Because they are racist (NOT THE MAJORITY I KNOW)
or
2)Because they want immigration to stop.
They don't really bother with other policies because every other party can beat them on them.
So they just stick with their card.
Anti-Ascription Crusader
Bottom line SWL is that no-one, other than thier existing supporters, is going to take BNP leaflets, videos or other policy-carrying media at face value. While some would say that cynicism has played a part in the decay of our parliamentary system (I don't say that), it does sometimes have an important role to play.
"Government by the people for the people becomes meaningless unless it includes major economic decision-making by the people for the people." - Jimmy Reid
Senior MP
I’m going to give up on this subject. I will never convince any of you there is more to the BNP than immigration. It really is wasted breath (or type in this instance).
I know why Im voting BNP. I would never vote for a party based on one policy. I have viewed ALL BNP policies and I agree with most of them, which is why they will be getting my vote on 6th June.
If I was only interested in immigration what’s stopping me from voting UKIP? The reason is I agree with a lot more of the BNP’s policies than UKIP and of course UKIP have now been caught with their hand in the till and have achieved nothing since being elected to Europe.
From SussexWithLove
Anti-Ascription Crusader
I think most would recognise that the BNP aren't a single-issue party. However, take race, immigration and nationalism as a single entity and you have their raison d'être.
"Government by the people for the people becomes meaningless unless it includes major economic decision-making by the people for the people." - Jimmy Reid
Senior MP
But race, immigration and nationalism isnt a single entity.
From SussexWithLove
accidental genius!
Unfortunately (to try and bring the thread back on topic), I think the days of the LibDems being in a position to break a tie are nearly over. It is a shame because as the natural choice for the protest vote they were in a unique position of influence there for a while.
It seems to me they lost momentum when they lost chat show Charlie and they seem to still be floundering. Their main problem of course is that both the Labour party and Conservatives have spent the last ten years wageing campaign battles in the traditional central ground that once belonged to the Libs. For a while there when they positioned themselves to the left they were quite the effective opposition party, but I'm not sure there's enough ground support for them at the moment and they could be quite a big casuality at the next general.
"The object of universities is not to make skilful lawyers, physicians or engineers. It is to make capable and cultivated human beings." John Stewart Mill
Anti-Ascription Crusader
Yes I know, I was trying to point out why they exist.
"Government by the people for the people becomes meaningless unless it includes major economic decision-making by the people for the people." - Jimmy Reid
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