I'm starting to like Nick Clegg's policies.

[Ian The Poet]

I am starting to like Nick Clegg he seems to have a lot strength to contain David Cameron, and is the right thing:New Politics: Nick Clegg's speech on constitutional reform | The Liberal Democrats: Latest News Detail Is this a sign of the way forward and is the voice of the future?

[Expounder]

I am starting to like Nick Clegg he seems to have a lot strength to contain David Cameron, and is the right thing:New Politics: Nick Clegg's speech on constitutional reform | The Liberal democrats: Latest News Detail Is this a sign of the way forward and is the voice of the future?

What pathetic excuse Clegg offers for a "breakdown" in talks with Labour, his sell out to Cameron was already a done deal before he ever spoke to them. He couldn't wait to put his signature to it.

The smell of the crumbs of a morsel of power and the ministerial perks that go with it was enough Lib Dem leadership betray their principles and the principles of their members. The Lib Dems are finished as serious political party, as their leaders are prepared to throw their lot in with the Tories for minor seats at the table. They have been absorbed into the Tory party machine.I believe Lib Dem members will split into factions at the next General Election as the party they belonged to no longer exists.

The debates: Nick Clegg "The Tories are linked up with a load of right wing nutcases in the EU". Now the Lib Dems are also linked up with them.

Clegg: 6bn worth of cuts to be made by the Tories this year would be "a disaster for Britain which could send the economy into a double dip recession". He's now seen the light and has been transformed into a slash and burn convert.

He's sold his party out for 30 pieces of silver and over the next few years he will have reaped what he's sown.

Read the link:

Nick Clegg: 'Gordon Brown's tantrum killed off Labour pact' - mirror.co.uk

[Expounder]

http://www.politic.co.uk/visitormessage.php

[uncon]

Labour stated that they were not willing to combine. There was no opportunity for an alliance there even though it was the most desirable to the electorate.

Could you tell me why Liams letter to his successor was dated 6th April? Labour didn't want to win this election and that is pretty sickening...we are in a mess so lets run away

[Major Sinic]

Labour stated that they were not willing to combine. There was no opportunity for an alliance there even though it was the most desirable to the electorate.

Do you really think it was? To allow national pressure groups like PC and the SNP, led by political pygmies like Alec Salmon, to hold the balance of power even for the few short months before such a coalition of losers inevitably collapsed, and a further general election called, was not I am sure what the majority of the electorate wanted. The only option which offered the hope of a workable government was the one we have got.

Could you tell me why Liams letter to his successor was dated 6th April? Labour didn't want to win this election and that is pretty sickening...we are in a mess so lets run away

I suspect that you are right.

[Expounder]

Do you really think it was? To allow national pressure groups like PC and the SNP, led by political pygmies like Alec Salmon, to hold the balance of power even for the few short months before such a coalition of losers inevitably collapsed, and a further general election called, was not I am sure what the majority of the electorate wanted. The only option which offered the hope of a workable government was the one we have got.

I suspect that you are right.

Well your expectation of Labour getting annihilated was well and truly scuppered. The emerging Lib Dem third political force vaporised as quickly as Nick Clegg's hot air, and the thumping Tory majority turned into a damp squib. This after 13 years of Labour and an unpopular leader wasn't quite the outcome the jubilant Tories were expecting.

Take into consideration the whole of the media the biased reporting by closet Tory journalists + Murdoch's Sky the Labour party vote held up and the heartlands returned a more than a respectable number of MPs to the commons to challenge the Tories. The wipe out never materialised.

There is really nothing more to say other than sit back and watch events. We are in uncharted waters and there are a number of scenarios. Five years is a long time for an such unlikely coalition to survive in the existing climate, unless the Lib Dems desert their membership and merge with the Tories for the duration, their leadership crediblity will be put to the acid test by their actions.

Then there is also the Tory right wing who weren't expecting this outcome, and are themselves non plussed watching and waiting to see where all this is going. There is also strong opposition in influential quarters of the party opposed to Cameron's attempt to Hi-Jack parliament by moving the goal posts with his 55% majority needed to dissolve parliament in the event a coalition breakdown.

It's early days, too early to make predictions as the political situation is so potentially unfathomable. I expect Cameron will keep the Lib Dem partners sweet in order to get through his gerrymandering ploy of a reduction of MPs by 10%, the Tories will have know doubt done their sums on this and hope it will see them in office for the foreseeable future. There is one possible fly in the ointment with this idea. This is if the Lib Dem vote collapses as result of their leaders participation in enforcing really harmful policies, or if their policies drive Britain back into recession, there are a few million votes up for grabs.

What doesn't make sense to me, is how this government is going get to long term unemployed people back to work, when the policies of savage cuts over this and the next few years, that will put thousands out of work and on benefits, which will have to be paid by a dwindling workforce. Even alternative job creation [if it's possible]will take more than five years. In any case what are we going to produce when most things are being made cheaper and better in the far east. Many of these products made by courtesy of British "patriotic" businessmen who deserted Britain for higher profits in the first place.

[Expounder]

I see that the editing facility has been removed is this temporary or intentional?

[Major Sinic]

Well your expectation of Labour getting annihilated was well and truly scuppered. The emerging Lib Dem third political force vaporised as quickly as Nick Clegg's hot air, and the thumping Tory majority turned into a damp squib. This after 13 years of Labour and an unpopular leader wasn't quite the outcome the jubilant Tories were expecting.

Another way to look at it is that 71% of those who voted, voted against Labour. That is more than 7 people in every 10 thought that Labour were no longer fit to stay in government. It is also interesting to note that the swing from Labour to the Tories was the biggest since 1931; that is almost eighty years ago. It was an even bigger swing than the one which swept our most successful peace time prime minister since WWII, Margaret Thatcher, to power. Unfortunately they were starting from a low point, despite getting more votes in 2005 than Labour. Something to do with Labour's manipulation of constituency boundaries I believe, and you have the effrontery to accuse David Cameron of gerrymandering!

Take into consideration the whole of the media the biased reporting by closet Tory journalists + Murdoch's Sky the Labour party vote held up and the heartlands returned a more than a respectable number of MPs to the commons to challenge the Tories. The wipe out never materialised.

The Tories had a fifty something overall majority in England. That is what I call a wipeout! It was the Scottish scroungers and Welsh whingers who saved Labour from total annihilation. A very good reason why the Union should be dismantled, and England granted independence.

[uncon]

I see that the editing facility has been removed is this temporary or intentional?

It was temporary as someone was abusing the facility and it was quicker to temporarily disable it for all. My apologies. It should be fine now.

What does interest me is the fact that your party which currently has no leader, has an opportunity to re-invent itself and is as reluctant to do so as you seen to be in entering the labour area to promote your own.

It's all very well atacking the coalition, but you have nothing to produce as an alternative and looking at the current information on the leadership race there, it is condem lite. Will the next election be on issues or feature a swimsuit round?

[Expounder]

It was temporary as someone was abusing the facility and it was quicker to temporarily disable it for all. My apologies. It should be fine now.

Uncon I don't know why you're apologising unless you were responsible for removing it. It has now reappeared.

What does interest me is the fact that your party which currently has no leader, has an opportunity to re-invent itself and is as reluctant to do so as you seen to be in entering the labour area to promote your own.

It's all very well attacking the coalition, but you have nothing to produce as an alternative and looking at the current information on the leadership race there, it is condemn lite. Will the next election be on issues or feature a swimsuit round?

Early days in both cases uncon, I was referring to the political differences between the Tory grass roots and the Lib Dem supporters. A bit oil and water don't you think? As the true old adage says " you can lead a horse to water but you can't make it drink"

If you are referring to my preference for leader I have already mentioned this in another post which you obviously missed. David Miliband is my choice as my first preference isn't standing, he is the most articulate of those who are standing, and could see off Cameron at the dispatch box. Brother Ed is a genuine guy but doesn't think as quickly on his feet and would be eaten alive by Cameron.

[Expounder]

Another way to look at it is that 71% of those who voted, voted against Labour. That is more than 7 people in every 10 thought that Labour were no longer fit to stay in government. It is also interesting to note that the swing from Labour to the Tories was the biggest since 1931; that is almost eighty years ago. It was an even bigger swing than the one which swept our most successful peace time prime minister since WWII, Margaret Thatcher, to power. Unfortunately they were starting from a low point, despite getting more votes in 2005 than Labour. Something to do with Labour's manipulation of constituency boundaries I believe, and you have the effrontery to accuse David Cameron of gerrymandering!

The other way of looking at it is 64% voted against the Tories, but 23% of those have been taken into a coalition with a party they despise by opportunist leaders who took the offer of holding minor government offices, which they will never do so again.

The Tories had a fifty something overall majority in England. That is what I call a wipeout! It was the Scottish scroungers and Welsh whingers who saved Labour from total annihilation. A very good reason why the Union should be dismantled, and England granted independence.

Come on you old reprobate, you're putting a brave face on the result, you would have loved to have had those Scottish and Welsh votes giving you an overall majority, now you have a dogs dinner of a government instead of absolute Tory dominance.

[Major Sinic]

The other way of looking at it is 64% voted against the Tories, but 23% of those have been taken into a coalition with a party they despise by opportunist leaders who took the offer of holding minor government offices, which they will never do so again.

You assume that all 23% of the electorate who voted Liberal Democrat would have chosen not to have gone into a coalition with the Conservatives. Such an assumption is flawed. The best expectation that the Liberal Democrats had was to be part of a coalition, so it is logical that almost every LibDem voter was voting in favour of a coalition. Like Labour and Conservative, the Liberal Democrats also have a left and right viewpoint within the party. Ideologically the traditional Liberals (as typified historically by Joe Grimmond and Jeremey Thorpe, and currently by Nick Clegg) are closer to the Conservative Party, in that they believed in personal responsibility and freedom, with minimal government interference in the individual's rights. It was very much the Social Democrat 'wing' who were on the left following the breakaway from Labour and the subsequent merger with the Liberals, as typified by Vince Cable and Paddy Ashdown.

Also even you must see that a coalition of Labour/LibDem/Plaid whatever/SNP/Green resulting in an theoretical majority of 2 (after removing Sinn Fein and adding the Ulster Democrats to the Conservatives) would not have lasted for more than a few months at best. It is patently obvious from media feedback that the majority of grass roots Liberal Democrats support the coalition, albeit with varying degrees of caution. The same might be said of the majority of Conservatives.

If this coalition sustains, and I hope it does, it will be a triumph of consensus and moderation over blind ideology, with each party sacrificing their more 'extreme' policies in a bid to achieve strong and stable government. We are getting a taste of what government under proportional representation will be like, before we vote for it. Make no mistake, if this coalition fails it will set the cause of electoral reform back substantially.

Come on you old reprobate, you're putting a brave face on the result, you would have loved to have had those Scottish and Welsh votes giving you an overall majority, now you have a dogs dinner of a government instead of absolute Tory dominance.

Of course you are right. Throughout the campaign I stated that I would like to see a Conservative Government with a small overall majority, and I was disappointed this did not come about. However, being ideologically on the left of the Conservative Party, I can in all honesty say that I am not too disappointed with the eventual outcome. By your criteria every government which doesn't comprise of a single party is a 'dogs dinner'. This includes virtually every government in Europe and, as I have already said, is an inevitable feature of proportional representation.

[Expounder]

You assume that all 23% of the electorate who voted Liberal Democrat would have chosen not to have gone into a coalition with the Conservatives. Such an assumption is flawed. The best expectation that the Liberal Democrats had was to be part of a coalition, so it is logical that almost every LibDem voter was voting in favour of a coalition. Like Labour and Conservative, the Liberal Democrats also have a left and right viewpoint within the party. Ideologically the traditional Liberals (as typified historically by Joe Grimmond and Jeremey Thorpe, and currently by Nick Clegg) are closer to the Conservative Party, in that they believed in personal responsibility and freedom, with minimal government interference in the individual's rights. It was very much the Social Democrat 'wing' who were on the left following the breakaway from Labour and the subsequent merger with the Liberals, as typified by Vince Cable and Paddy Ashdown.

Also even you must see that a coalition of Labour/LibDem/Plaid whatever/SNP/Green resulting in an theoretical majority of 2 (after removing Sinn Fein and adding the Ulster Democrats to the Conservatives) would not have lasted for more than a few months at best. It is patently obvious from media feedback that the majority of grass roots Liberal Democrats support the coalition, albeit with varying degrees of caution. The same might be said of the majority of Conservatives.

If this coalition sustains, and I hope it does, it will be a triumph of consensus and moderation over blind ideology, with each party sacrificing their more 'extreme' policies in a bid to achieve strong and stable government. We are getting a taste of what government under proportional representation will be like, before we vote for it. Make no mistake, if this coalition fails it will set the cause of electoral reform back substantially.

There was an alternative that could/might have got you your desired result. Cameron to to form a minority government with the supply and etc arangement with the Lib Dems. Waited until a vote of no confidence which would have most certainly come within a year or two even sooner, then go to the country for a stronger mandate, betting on many Lib Dem and Labour voters backing him for the sake of stability giving him a free hand making everyone in the Tory party happy. I bet this was discussed and he bottled it.

Of course you are right. Throughout the campaign I stated that I would like to see a Conservative Government with a small overall majority, and I was disappointed this did not come about. However, being ideologically on the left of the Conservative Party, I can in all honesty say that I am not too disappointed with the eventual outcome. By your criteria every government which doesn't comprise of a single party is a 'dogs dinner'. This includes virtually every government in Europe and, as I have already said, is an inevitable feature of proportional representation.

Why I say a dogs dinner is that both parties were opposed on most major policies during the debates: particularly on timing of cuts[Vince Cable] in the economy, on Europe, and Trident [Clegg], and that the coalition was thrown together in haste primarily to accommodate Cameron's desperation to get into No10 as soon as possible, and secondly to satisfy the Lib Dems leaders craving for office which they knew was beyond them without sacrificing some basic principles There was the open door and the Tories beckoning them in. The Lib Dem leadership ceded to the human frailty of weakness instead remaining pure in thought and mind and basic tenents only tacitly supporting the Tories on what they thought were vital issues and retaining their dignity.

What matters to the Lib Dem leadership is how far down the Tory road they are prepared to travel before the grass roots call enough, or the left of the party justs deserts them.

[uncon]

Uncon I don't know why you're apologising unless you were responsible for removing it. It has now reappeared.

Early days in both cases uncon, I was referring to the political differences between the Tory grass roots and the Lib Dem supporters. A bit oil and water don't you think? As the true old adage says " you can lead a horse to water but you can't make it drink"

If you are referring to my preference for leader I have already mentioned this in another post which you obviously missed. David Miliband is my choice as my first preference isn't standing, he is the most articulate of those who are standing, and could see off Cameron at the dispatch box. Brother Ed is a genuine guy but doesn't think as quickly on his feet and would be eaten alive by Cameron.

But isn't the problem deeper?

I do agree with you about the oil and water, but, not just yourself, but many labour MPs are talking about effectively a job that is only for PMQ's. That isn't forming a credible alternative to the current government when it consists of men who are saying 'We didn't agree with the war in Iraq or the ten pence tax etc etc' ad nauseum. These are men who have been government ministers in a party that not only lost all their new supporters but lost the trust of their stalwart members and are effectively proposing nothing new except well I didn't like it and turning against their own former leader.

This is simply not a credible opposition when the country is watching oil and water, trying damn hard to form a coherent government with two parties, and labour can't even work with itself!

Don't get me wrong expounder, I want to see labour rise. I do want fairness for all, but labour let us down and didn't give us fairness and it seems to have no interest in providing it even now.

[Expounder]

But isn't the problem deeper?

I do agree with you about the oil and water, but, not just yourself, but many labour MPs are talking about effectively a job that is only for PMQ's. That isn't forming a credible alternative to the current government when it consists of men who are saying 'We didn't agree with the war in Iraq or the ten pence tax etc etc' ad nauseum. These are men who have been government ministers in a party that not only lost all their new supporters but lost the trust of their stalwart members and are effectively proposing nothing new except well I didn't like it and turning against their own former leader.

This is simply not a credible opposition when the country is watching oil and water, trying damn hard to form a coherent government with two parties, and labour can't even work with itself!

Don't get me wrong expounder, I want to see labour rise. I do want fairness for all, but labour let us down and didn't give us fairness and it seems to have no interest in providing it even now.

Well uncon lets wait and see, the opposition Labour PLP is the only group from which a Labour Leader can emerge. Wait to hear what policy statements a made. Good performance at the dispatch box is important as well as good theatre. The new shadow cabinet when formed will be an indication of what to expect. As I said it's early days.http://www.politic.co.uk/images/icons/happy.gif

[octopus]

I am starting to like Nick Clegg he seems to have a lot strength to contain David Cameron, and is the right thing:New Politics: Nick Clegg's speech on constitutional reform | The Liberal Democrats: Latest News Detail Is this a sign of the way forward and is the voice of the future?

At times Nick Glegg seems more higher profile than David Cameron. Both are Liberals in my opnion. They should make the most of it while they can. All they are doing, espeacialy David Cameron, is driving people to the right - who will be the real victors in the end.

[Expounder]

At times Nick Glegg seems more higher profile than David Cameron. Both are Liberals in my opinion. They should make the most of it while they can. All they are doing, especially David Cameron, is driving people to the right - who will be the real victors in the end.

Clegg is not containing Cameron, Cameron is using Clegg at this initial stage to get through legislation on the "reforming" of the commons, a 10% reduction in MPs and constituency boundary changes which he hope will see the Tories in office for the foreseeable future. Also by using the Lib Dems as a buffer. Law was a closet Tory, his fall from grace will cause a some problems,as Cameron made him the fall guy for the forthcoming savage cuts, rather a Lib Dem in the hot seat and keep the Tory powder dry when it comes to policies that are going to cause widespread hardship. Cameron can always point out it was a Lib Dem enforcing them. Coalition wobbles in bid to keep its balance - Times Online

With a few minor exceptions all Tory manifesto policies will eventually go through. Clegg and Co Lib Dems are too fond of the taste of ministerial office to and will offer little challenge to real damaging policies. They have been bought with ministerial bribes, and don't want to go back to being the third party who in opposition no one listens to. They are on an unexpected high they've won the lottery and are loving it.

[Major Sinic]

At times Nick Glegg seems more higher profile than David Cameron. Both are Liberals in my opnion. They should make the most of it while they can. All they are doing, espeacialy David Cameron, is driving people to the right - who will be the real victors in the end.

Political balance in this country will depend totally on the degree of electoral reform. Socialists still vote Labour because there is no real alternative. Right wing anti-EU Tories stay in the party because UKIP in a FPTP system is impotent.

Once we have an electoral system which enfranchises all political viewpoints, I believe that we will see a great deal of political realignment and some fragmentation. I can quite easily see the right and centre of the LibDems (the original Liberals) and the left and centre of the Tories uniting into one party to form Liberal Conservatives. I can see parts of Labour merging with the remainder of the Liberal Democrats (the original Social Democrat Party) to form a democratic socialist party. The right wing of the Conservative Party could easily morph with UKIP supporters to form a nationalist democratic party. And we would undoubtedly see more very small extremist and special interest parties on both the left and right, as well as the existing nationalist parties. None will be able to command an overall majority and coalition government will become the norm.

I do believe that the success or otherwise of the present coalition will have a pivotal effect on how quickly we get much needed electoral reform and full proportional representation.

[octopus]

Political balance in this country will depend totally on the degree of electoral reform. Socialists still vote Labour because there is no real alternative. Right wing anti-EU Tories stay in the party because UKIP in a FPTP system is impotent.

Once we have an electoral system which enfranchises all political viewpoints, I believe that we will see a great deal of political realignment and some fragmentation. I can quite easily see the right and centre of the LibDems (the original Liberals) and the left and centre of the Tories uniting into one party to form Liberal Conservatives. I can see parts of Labour merging with the remainder of the Liberal Democrats (the original Social Democrat Party) to form a democratic socialist party. The right wing of the Conservative Party could easily morph with UKIP supporters to form a nationalist democratic party. And we would undoubtedly see more very small extremist and special interest parties on both the left and right, as well as the existing nationalist parties. None will be able to command an overall majority and coalition government will become the norm.

I do believe that the success or otherwise of the present coalition will have a pivotal effect on how quickly we get much needed electoral reform and full proportional representation.

At the moment a lot of people fail to realise that we are not allowed to make our own laws because of outside interference from Brussels. We know that, but millions don"t.

To be honest, Major, we haven"t seen the full horror of our situation yet. So, I don"t think we can really judge what we are actually dealing with - nor can the people you speak of, many of which lead very sheltered lives.

The vast majority of people want a return of capital punishment - including myself. But it will almost certainly never happen all the time we are in the EU. Just another example of foreign domination by the Police State of the EU. The cost they over look, £40 million a day , to you and me. How many extra British Nurses, Doctors, teachers and Police could we hire for that?

This kind of complacency will continue untill they are forced out of their comfort zones. What you say may be true now - but will it be by the end of the decade? To bring geniune positive change you need the policies UKIP are offering. Whether they come from UKIP or the present parties - sometime they will have to endorse policies like UKIP and myself support. If we don"t, society will collapse.

[octopus]

Clegg is not containing Cameron, Cameron is using Clegg at this initial stage to get through legislation on the "reforming" of the commons, a 10% reduction in MPs and constituency boundary changes which he hope will see the Tories in office for the foreseeable future. Also by using the Lib Dems as a buffer. Law was a closet Tory, his fall from grace will cause a some problems,as Cameron made him the fall guy for the forthcoming savage cuts, rather a Lib Dem in the hot seat and keep the Tory powder dry when it comes to policies that are going to cause widespread hardship. Cameron can always point out it was a Lib Dem enforcing them. Coalition wobbles in bid to keep its balance - Times Online

With a few minor exceptions all Tory manifesto policies will eventually go through. Clegg and Co Lib Dems are too fond of the taste of ministerial office to and will offer little challenge to real damaging policies. They have been bought with ministerial bribes, and don't want to go back to being the third party who in opposition no one listens to. They are on an unexpected high they've won the lottery and are loving it.

To be honest Expounder, Lib-Dem, or Tory, all seems the same to me, manifesto wise. Soft on Law and Order, immigration, wasting British tax payers money on the EU and overseas aid.

For a man who"s party only secured 60 odd seats, Mr Glegg certainly seems to have a lot of say over a party that secured over 300. This indicates to me that they are very partisan in their views. Will it last? I don"t think so. Politicaly, they should - but having said the tories are left-wing biased, Mr Cameron does have many right-wingers - many of which would probably equal my views - who won"t accept this, and will probably leave the party.

As for cuts - they don"t have any choice, thanks to an over generous Gordon Brown and Tony Blair. That is where the coalition is showing strength, but will their measures be enough; pity they don"t show strength on other policies - which will be another long term problem.

[uncon]

Clegg is not containing Cameron, Cameron is using Clegg at this initial stage to get through legislation on the "reforming" of the commons, a 10% reduction in MPs and constituency boundary changes which he hope will see the Tories in office for the foreseeable future. Also by using the Lib Dems as a buffer. Law was a closet Tory, his fall from grace will cause a some problems,as Cameron made him the fall guy for the forthcoming savage cuts, rather a Lib Dem in the hot seat and keep the Tory powder dry when it comes to policies that are going to cause widespread hardship. Cameron can always point out it was a Lib Dem enforcing them. Coalition wobbles in bid to keep its balance - Times Online

With a few minor exceptions all Tory manifesto policies will eventually go through. Clegg and Co Lib Dems are too fond of the taste of ministerial office to and will offer little challenge to real damaging policies. They have been bought with ministerial bribes, and don't want to go back to being the third party who in opposition no one listens to. They are on an unexpected high they've won the lottery and are loving it.

make no mistake, Clegg and Cameron are having to negotiate every issue and I love it! I love the idea that a left leaning party is balancing the right, that extreme policies from both sides are just not happening! If this works and at the end of five years there is a marked result and a move forward then I want a Con Dem option on my ballot paper.

Labour left me with debt and no thought to deal with it. The coalition gives balance and if that works then Labour is out for a generation

[james-a-h]

I saw Nick Clegg speaking in the Commons the other day, and I was pleasantly surprised. I'm pretty much a solid Labour supporter but even I'm starting to think that there may be a temptation in 5 years for me to lean toward the Libs.

[AMGINGLES]

The Liberal democrats and nick clegg are just another front of the elite ruling class , what this coalition has enabled the ruling class to do is it has give each party in the coalition the ability to blame the other party and the coalition as a whole ( the puppet of the bilderberg group ) can do whatever it wants.