Dutch Politician - Geert Wilders

[Hastle]

I applaud Arfan Khan a Muslim Barrister for defending Geert Wilders right to free speech and entry into the U. K. - and just by the way, my family are Muslim

[fubar]

good on you Hastle and your family for sticking up for our rights to free speach this man needs to be heard right or wrong.

[Midas]

good on you Hastle and your family for sticking up for our rights to free speach this man needs to be heard right or wrong.

Yes indeed! From what I've seen of him, Geert Wilders is simply saying what a huge number of people are thinking; in their aim of multiculturalism, governments are bending over backwards to give support to ethnic minorities, in particular Muslims, at the expense of their indigenous populations. Good on him for having the guts to come out and voice public concerns!

[DC]

I was frankly disgusted by protesters waving "Sharia for Holland" signs around, and then they wonder why they're hated. Geert hasn't struck me as a racist or even particularly right wing, merely a representative of what a lot of people are thinking.

[Hastle]

Wilders has the right to free speech although his call to ban the Quran is as ridiculous as thoe who called for Salman Rushdie's Satanic Verses to be banned.

[octopus]

Who do do New Labour think they are? They take it apon themselves to decide who comes into our country, with statements like: "oh, it"s not in the public interest". Well, Geert Wilders film, and indeed his views, are certainly not in New Labour"s interest, because it shows how out of touch and naive they are about extreme Islam.

Over the last 12 years, our rights, which have been won over the centuries, are slowly being taken away. We find ourselves being told what to put in our childrens packed lunch for school, where to smoke, even told how to put our rubbish out and if they could enforce it - tell us when to have sex, no doubt, in the public interest, on the grounds of stopping AIDS, or such like.

However, some people are fighting back, and that is the British way. Afterall, Adolf Hitler didn"t fancy invading us in 1940, as he knew we would never surrender. Exterme Islam should note that too;
the true British, never surrender - not even in 2009.

But, there are major flaws in the above statement, that is to say that we have no proper goverment to lead us, unlike in 1940. Almost everything they do ends in fiasco, they can"t even manage their finances properly, let alone run the country.

So on the strenghth of this, I, for one, am very glad of Lord Pearson inviting Geert Wilders to the UK. Most people that live in inner city Britain know of the problems of extreme Islam - and indeed their goal of world rule.

Does anyone really know the full horror of a Taliban type world? Well, here"s a few pointers: Everbody would be forced to accept their faith, young girls could be mutillated, just so they remain faithfull to their husbands - they would have few more rights than the family pet, you have your hand cut off for theft, stoned to death for adultery and in some parts of the Islamic world SLAVERY still goes on; and the darstadly British, outlawed around 200 years ago.

I say, wecome Geert Wilders, and well done to Lord Pearson for inviting him to our Country, with Gordon Brown at the helm. we need all the help we can get. The top 3 don"t want to know, it"s only the people with common sense and foresight that can see the danger. Just like Fascism and Communism, extreme Islam is dangerous, IN FACT FAR MORE DANGEROUS. And what do you think some of our students would do in a world without booze, and causal sex? Big "NO NOS" under ISLAM.

[Alba]

I don't see what he's said or done that warrants him being banned from coming to/speaking in the UK.

As far as I can tell, he isn't broadcasting hatred and inciting violence.

Who is actually trying to stop him (names/organisations) ?

[Barry]

Wilders has the right to free speech although his call to ban the Quran is as ridiculous as thoe who called for Salman Rushdie's Satanic Verses to be banned.

The Qur'an should no more be banned than Mein Kampf.
It is it's implementation of certain verses by fanatics that should be banned.

Oh, it is, murder is banned, after all.

[Hastle]

I don't see what he's said or done that warrants him being banned from coming to/speaking in the UK.

As far as I can tell, he isn't broadcasting hatred and inciting violence.

Who is actually trying to stop him (names/organisations) ?

The United Kingdom Government was until the the courts overturned their dcision

[octopus]

Thank you for your comments. However, with respect, you seem very keen on digging up dirt on UKIP . I"ll agree, we have had bad eggs in UKIP, and will do again, no doubt. But how does that weigh against the dishonesty of the main parties? Afterall, that is very well known. Gordon Brown has had to pay back £12,000. "Jack Boots" Jackie Smith has been enjoying everthing from free accomodation, to "porno movies" all on the likes of you and me. Peter Viggers, thought me and you, and everybody else should pay for his duck house, and many, many more examples can be found. In short, where ever you have people, you will find dishonesty, sleaze and indeed corruption. In fact the BNP have all details on criminals from the big 3, on their website

UKIP actually listen to what people say. We the ordinary tax paying people are frankly fed up with Fearal yobs taking over our towns. We are fed up with killers being given pathetic, 12 year sentences. We are fed up with paying millions of pounds of our hard earned cash to Black Hitlers in the 3ard World, while our own old people die in our hospitals, because the doctors and nurses can"t afford to treat them, as the moneys being wasted on the above.

I could go on with other subjects such as the economy, but the main thing that worries me, but not the main parties is Islamic extremism. Islamic extermism is terryifing. If Britain ever became an Islamic state, white christian Britons would be like the Jews in Nazi Germany - you too, if your not an extreme Muslim. Whatever you say about Lord Pearson, he does not threaten to behead non muslims, does not believe in cutting peoples hands of for theft, does not believe in forcing young girls to marry men they can"t stand the sight of, and would have no more rights than the family dog, and definately would not have public executions in the center of London; whilst some Islamic states still do. Sorry but we are dealing with savages. Islamic leaders claim we have small Islamic population. Certainly not small in Portsmouth, In Albert Road Portsmouth, you could be forgiven for thinking you were in India - and as for the big cities, well you could have fooled me. I as sorry, I don"t that agree Extreme Islam is compatible with western european democracy, and such people as that, should be removed to their country of origin as I say we are dealing with savages in short. You may not realise this, but we need people like Lord Pearson and Geert Wilders, they, and people like them, are the only people that can see the danger, AND WE ARE IN BIG DANGER! Some believe Britain could be an Islamic state within 20 years. Espeacialy if the top 3 parties continue to call the shots.

[Greg Lance-Watkins]

Hi,

what has your disjointed rant to do with Geert Wilders?

I did not comment on the thread as it was founded on such idiotic, inaccurate comments it was just not worth the effort.

Ignoring your original rant and the latest one - why not take each subject separately as a thread and I will be only too happy to address your claims.

May I just make a couple of quick comments to show what I meant when I claimed your post was just an inaccurate rant.

There are approximately 2.4M Muslims in Britain.

They do NOT out breed us 10 to one. (Malcolm Pearson has had 3 wives and 2 children)

Them and Us is a pejorative use of language as many are British and without the aid of Muslims in WWI & WWII Britain would almost definitely have LOST!

Your claim that Albert Road is just like India - Oh, no Muslims then! Very few Indians are Muslim - most are Hindu, Christian, Sikh, Tamil, Buddhist but very few are followers of Islam.

Islam does NOT advocate female circumcision.

Need I go on?

Do you know anything about EUkip? or do you base your argument on YOUR belief that they are in some way the lesser of two evils?

Regards,
Greg L-W.

[octopus]

If we rely on Messers Brown, Cameron and Glegg, we are in trouble. They are frankly as

[octopus]

Hi,

what has your disjointed rant to do with Geert Wilders?

I did not comment on the thread as it was founded on such idiotic, inaccurate comments it was just not worth the effort.

Ignoring your original rant and the latest one - why not take each subject separately as a thread and I will be only too happy to address your claims.

May I just make a couple of quick comments to show what I meant when I claimed your post was just an inaccurate rant.

There are approximately 2.4M Muslims in Britain.

They do NOT out breed us 10 to one. (Malcolm Pearson has had 3 wives and 2 children)

Them and Us is a pejorative use of language as many are British and without the aid of Muslims in WWI & WWII Britain would almost definitely have LOST!

Your claim that Albert Road is just like India - Oh, no Muslims then! Very few Indians are Muslim - most are Hindu, Christian, Sikh, Tamil, Buddhist but very few are followers of Islam.

Islam does NOT advocate female circumcision.

Need I go on?

Do you know anything about EUkip? or do you base your argument on YOUR belief that they are in some way the lesser of two evils?

Regards,
Greg L-W.

You don"t like UKIP very much do you? I would be very happy to put my faith in the top 3. However, I can"t, because they are frankly as out of touch with mainstream believe as you are. UKIP on the other hand, tick all the boxes for me I have read their policies, good sound common sense. As you say, they are not perfect, but everyone I have spoken too, is also, a convert like me. They finished ahead of Labour in the Euro Elections they are increasing their share ofthe vote in By-Elections, Norwich was an example of that; Labour"s was down.

What does last my post have to do with Geert Wilders? Everything! However, I will go over it again for you. Geert Wilders has the courage, like Lord Pearson, to say what his views are; and I certainly applaud them for that. When you have naive leaders like Mr Brown, Mr Cameron and Mr Glegg you need to look outside mainstream politics, because frankly,they haven"t got a glue. Geert Wilders is alert to the danger, as is Lord Pearson.

However, I don"t know what your nieghbourhood is like, but in most of the people I have spoken to, they like me, are terrified of a Muslim takeover, and they live in areas with large immigrant numbers, so know what they are talking about - DO YOU? 2.4 million, or 24, when you have people threatning to decapitate, people whom they deem as enemies, on our home soil, I sorry, but I think it"s time they left our Island, and your free to leave with them if you wish. Sorry if that offends your Liberal sensibilties. You may be reflecting mainstream believe in some "Red Brick UNI", but I can assure you, that you are in the minority, THE BRITISH PEOPLE HAVE HAD ENOUGH! WE WANT ACTION! Yes, your right it is a rant! I am very ANGRY! If the the top 3 are prepared to offer us the voters what UKIP are prepared offer, they like me, will no doubt go back to them; the ball is their court. As for the Muslims not out breeding us, I would beg to differ, as would anybody who lives in the real world, as you obviously don"t! I really hope I am wrong about this, but I know I"m not. As for the non-extremists, they have nothing to fear from the British people, which includes those people you have mentioned. As for having a knoweledge on UKIP, I"m no expert, but, as say - I like what I see.

[Greg Lance-Watkins]

You don"t like UKIP very much do you? I would be very happy to put my faith in the top 3. However, I can"t, because they are frankly as out of touch with mainstream believe as you are. UKIP on the other hand, tick all the boxes for me I have read their policies, good sound common sense. As you say, they are not perfect, but everyone I have spoken too, is also, a convert like me. They finished ahead of Labour in the Euro Elections they are increasing their share ofthe vote in By-Elections, Norwich was an example of that; Labour"s was down.

What does last my post have to do with Geert Wilders? Everything! However, I will go over it again for you. Geert Wilders has the courage, like Lord Pearson, to say what his views are; and I certainly applaud them for that. When you have naive leaders like Mr Brown, Mr Cameron and Mr Glegg you need to look outside mainstream politics, because frankly,they haven"t got a glue. Geert Wilders is alert to the danger, as is Lord Pearson.

However, I don"t know what your nieghbourhood is like, but in most of the people I have spoken to, they like me, are terrified of a Muslim takeover, and they live in areas with large immigrant numbers, so know what they are talking about - DO YOU? 2.4 million, or 24, when you have people threatning to decapitate, people whom they deem as enemies, on our home soil, I sorry, but I think it"s time they left our Island, and your free to leave with them if you wish. Sorry if that offends your Liberal sensibilties. You may be reflecting mainstream believe in some "Red Brick UNI", but I can assure you, that you are in the minority, THE BRITISH PEOPLE HAVE HAD ENOUGH! WE WANT ACTION! Yes, your right it is a rant! I am very ANGRY! If the the top 3 are prepared to offer us the voters what UKIP are prepared offer, they like me, will no doubt go back to them; the ball is their court. As for the Muslims not out breeding us, I would beg to differ, as would anybody who lives in the real world, as you obviously don"t! I really hope I am wrong about this, but I know I"m not. As for the non-extremists, they have nothing to fear from the British people, which includes those people you have mentioned. As for having a knoweledge on UKIP, I"m no expert, but, as say - I like what I see.

Your points are - as I said before - unaddressable so I have done as I suggested you did and posted your main comments as separate threads the better to deal with them.

Regards,
Greg L-W.

[octopus]

Your points are - as I said before - unaddressable so I have done as I suggested you did and posted your main comments as separate threads the better to deal with them.

Regards,
Greg L-W.

More a case of you don"t agree with what you see, do you Gregg? If your smart, you will change your mind. And for your information, some EXTREME muslims, to do female circumcision. I was told that by a newsagent I knew - A Muslim. Despite what you think I do not despise all Muslims, only EXTREME Muslims all right thinking people do, including Geert Wilders and Lord Pearson. As for numbers, even the goverment don"t know; although some were working in various goverment departments, illegally. Finally, may I suggest you come down to London, Bradford, Leeds, Birmingham, and indeed, Portsmouth, as well as other large cities, where you will see what the people I have been speaking to are worrying about, all got one thing in common, large immigrant invasions. Some friendly, like the newsagent, some defianately NOT friendly, as I have found out, I don"t enjoy being called "White Trash" in my own Country. THAT"S WHY WE NEED PEOPLE LIKE GEERT WILDERS AND LORD PEARSON. I think one day you will be of the same opnion as me and the majority of people. When they day comes, please let me know.

[Greg Lance-Watkins]

More a case of you don"t agree with what you see, do you Gregg? If your smart, you will change your mind. And for your information, some EXTREME muslims, to do female circumcision. I was told that by a newsagent I knew - A Muslim. Despite what you think I do not despise all Muslims, only EXTREME Muslims all right thinking people do, including Geert Wilders and Lord Pearson. As for numbers, even the goverment don"t know; although some were working in various goverment departments, illegally. Finally, may I suggest you come down to London, Bradford, Leeds, Birmingham, and indeed, Portsmouth, as well as other large cities, where you will see what the people I have been speaking to are worrying about, all got one thing in common, large immigrant invasions. Some friendly, like the newsagent, some defianately NOT friendly, as I have found out, I don"t enjoy being called "White Trash" in my own Country. THAT"S WHY WE NEED PEOPLE LIKE GEERT WILDERS AND LORD PEARSON. I think one day you will be of the same opnion as me and the majority of people. When they day comes, please let me know.

Hi,

which is why I have addressed each point you made.

By all means address the statements I have made but I wonder would you mind NOT inventing my views and beliefs to suit your apparent prejudices.

Thanks.

Regards,
Greg L-W.

[octopus]

Hi,

which is why I have addressed each point you made.

By all means address the statements I have made but I wonder would you mind NOT inventing my views and beliefs to suit your apparent prejudices.

Thanks.

Regards,
Greg L-W.

Wouldn"t dream of it Gregg.

[Greg Lance-Watkins]

Hi,

Dutch MP Geert WILDERS the producer of the excellent if somewhat loaded summary of quotes from The Quoran FITNA a 17 minute or so film which you can see if you:
CLICK HERE

He is to face trial in Holland on 20-Jan-2009

More details and the full charges can be read if you:
CLICK HERE

Regards,
Greg L-W.

[DC]

He'll get off, if he doesn't, the backlash will be so immense they'll wish they'd let him off.

[Greg Lance-Watkins]

He'll get off, if he doesn't, the backlash will be so immense they'll wish they'd let him off.

Hi,

one has to wonder why, since FITNA merely chooses to state facts quoted from The Quoran and every time I have seen Wilders he has been more moderate than many associated with him, why was there no action UNTIL the full powers of the Police State were enshrined in law by the imposition, largely against the will of the people forced into it, of The New Constitution centralising Kontrol in Brussels enforceable by militaristic armed police.

Could the Governance and abuse of citizens be featuring now 'BECAUSE THEY CAN'

Why should Geert Wilders even need to defend himself against a Police State seeking to impose a medieval concept of denial of Free Speech in the arcane concept of Governance that IS The EU.

If people doubted The EU experiment was Evil they will learn all too soon!

Regards,
Greg L-W.

[fubar]

He'll get off, if he doesn't, the backlash will be so immense they'll wish they'd let him off.

you might also say he needs to be found guilty so causing the backlash we all so desperately need as a wake up call?now wouldn't that be fun

[Balthazar]

Geert Wilders has been engaging in generalised hate-speech towards Muslims for years. It's about time he faced trial. It's going to be a standard free speech v. hate speech argument, conducted in the high courts of The Hague.

It's good to criticise:

• militant Islam
• Imans who call for the death of heretics
• young Muslims who plot to blow up the London transport system
• the treatment of gays and women within conservative Islam

But the Muslim-haters don't do that. They mount generalised attacks on Muslims as a whole, and scream about their 'freedom of speech' and the horrors of 'political correctness' when told to put a cork in it. They mutter conspiracy theories about a 'European Caliphate' and accuse Muslims of breeding like rabbits. They use the cowardly 'I love Muslims but hate Islam' formulation to cover themselves from the race hate laws.

Well done The Hague for feeling Wilders' collar. I hope he's put in a cell with particularly lunatic Muslim greybeard. They're two sides of the same coin and deserve each other.

[fubar]

Balthazar shall we have a bet on who plays the r..... card first.' my guess it's you who would be favorite.'Ii say first to use the race card loses lol.

[Balthazar]

Balthazar shall we have a bet on who plays the r..... card first.' my guess it's you who would be favorite.'Ii say first to use the race card loses lol.

LOL. I'm not PC so don't mind calling a spade a shovel. If some snivelling little Muslim-hater, knee deep in 'caliphate' and 'breeding like rabbits' conspiracy theories, is at root a racist nitwit, why not say so?

But I'll take the bet.

[Greg Lance-Watkins]

Hi,

I totally endorse free speech in a free Country.

I wonder howmany of Geert Wilder's speeches individuals on this Forum have heard in fact I wonder how many have watched FITNA in full.

Clearly the moderators haven't or they would not have put together this muddled thread where the position of Geert Wilders & Lord Pearson relative to Jaqui Spliff and the issue of Trial in Holland on 20-Jan-2009 was treated as a separate thread since they require addressing separately as different issues.

Making a muddle of a discussion is almost as unhelpfull as locking threads!

This trial desrves a headline and deserves discussion separately.

Regards,
Greg L-W.

[DavidRose]

It's good to criticise:

• militant Islam
• Imans who call for the death of heretics
• young Muslims who plot to blow up the London transport system
• the treatment of gays and women within conservative Islam

If you'd bothered to watch Gert Wilder's film you'd have known it was filled with the kind of Muslims you claim it is good to criticize.

They use the cowardly 'I love Muslims but hate Islam' formulation to cover themselves from the race hate laws.

A self-description?

[fubar]

Shall we just say or to get the facts right that muslim is not a race,'say no to the r.....card a balti.

[fubar]

Watched the film hard hitting stuff wanna read some more read the Koran the religion of Fear and Hate where every one is at risk Death and bloodshed it's all it preaches.

[Balthazar]

Shall we just say or to get the facts right that muslim is not a race,'say no to the r.....card a balti.

Have you been claiming all Muslims belong to the same race?

Shadow Chancellor George Osborne's brother has converted to Islam to marry a Muslim, it has emerged.

Psychiatrist Adam Osborne, 33, married Bangladeshi-born plastic surgeon Rahala Noor, 31, in a traditional Asian ceremony conducted by an imam last month....

Source

Surely you can spot the difference?


Mohammed Osborne


Abu Hamza

Watched the film hard hitting stuff wanna read some more read the Koran the religion of Fear and Hate where every one is at risk Death and bloodshed it's all it preaches.

OMG! Does this mean the Shadow Chancellor's brother is about to blow himself up????

[fubar]

Have you been claiming all Muslims belong to the same race?



Surely you can spot the difference?


Mohammed Osborne


Abu Hamza





OMG! Does this mean the Shadow Chancellor's brother is about to blow himself up????

tut tut balti so what.

[Barry]

I have watched Fitna a couple of times, and have it on my PC files.
It is merely a record of truth, so I don't see that he will have a problem.

When he is found not guilty, it will provide some sanity of a stated case, so that other cases like it will not go to court.

[Balthazar]

tut tut balti so what.

So have you, or haven't you, been claiming that all Muslims belong to the same race? It's an odd claim to make.

Almost as mad as your claim that the Shadow Chancellor's brother, Dr Mohammed Osborne, who studied the Koran intensively prior to his nuptials, has now been exposed to "the religion of Fear and Hate where every one is at risk Death and bloodshed it's all it preaches."

Can't you see:

(a) how lunatic that makes you sound; and
(b) how you become very similar to headcases like Abu Hamza?

In fact, I'll call you Abu Fubar in future. I trust you don't intend blowing yourself up? Or making a joint suicide video with David 'Mustafa' Rose?

[fubar]

If he gets found not guilty it might be a push to far for the Muslims(could be a good thing) on the other hand if found guilty i cant see much happening other than a few parties in the Muslim quarters.And the death of free speach.

[fubar]

So have you, or haven't you, been claiming that all Muslims belong to the same race? It's an odd claim to make.

no.As you well know.Having fun are we lol.very purile of you don't you think.The least i've come to expect of you.

[DavidRose]

So have you, or haven't you, been claiming that all Muslims belong to the same race? It's an odd claim to make.

Almost as mad as your claim that the Shadow Chancellor's brother, Dr Mohammed Osborne, who studied the Koran intensively prior to his nuptials, has now been exposed to "the religion of Fear and Hate where every one is at risk Death and bloodshed it's all it preaches."

Can't you see:

(a) how lunatic that makes you sound; and
(b) how you become very similar to headcases like Abu Hamza?

In fact, I'll call you Abu Fubar in future. I trust you don't intend blowing yourself up? Or making a joint suicide video with David 'Mustafa' Rose?

Another brilliant post from the forum's greatest hypocrite.

[Balthazar]

Another brilliant post from the forum's greatest hypocrite.

Oh come on Mustafa. You can do better than that. No impenetrably obscurantist argument? No muttering about Caliphates? No scarwy claim that my nice Muslim newsagent, Mr Patel, is slipping extremist propaganda into my Morning Star?

[LA]

Freedom of Speech
Mr Wilders can say what he likes.

[fubar]

we have to wait till after the trial to see what effect it will have on free speech.
'If he loses then it will be the end of free speech as we know it'.

[octopus]

It is true Geert Wilders and Lord Pearson, and other people in public life do say what others fear to say - and want to hear. But, hey, Why doesn"t everybody reading this post dare to stand up against the PC idiots of the 3 main parties, and elsewhere? You can you know, it is your birth right. WE LIVE IN A FREE COUNTRY WITH FREE SPEECH - DESPITE WHAT GORDON BROWN TELLS YOU! Tell your family, tell your friends, tell your work mates and most of all the canvassers that knock on your door; they need it more than anyone, as they so out of touch, it is not real.

[Major Sinic]

One might wish to think freedom is an absolute. However this is far from the reality in terms of our freedom of speech and expression.

With these freedoms, which many of our ancestors have fought for, comes responsibility, and quite rightly so in my opinion. That responsibility, often supported by legislation, demands that those freedoms are not abused, primarily by not allowing the use of those freedoms to threaten, intimidate, diminish or otherwise compromise the same rights of other citizens whether a minority or the majority.

Inevitably extremism, whether of speech, expression or action compromises the freedoms of others and is abhorrent, irrespective of whether they are religious zealots or fascist racists. For society as a whole to allow itself to be intimidated by such evil people is to allow the fabric of our society to be threatened.

[Midas]

One might wish to think freedom is an absolute. However this is far from the reality in terms of our freedom of speech and expression.

With these freedoms, which many of our ancestors have fought for, comes responsibility, and quite rightly so in my opinion. That responsibility, often supported by legislation, demands that those freedoms are not abused, primarily by not allowing the use of those freedoms to threaten, intimidate, diminish or otherwise compromise the same rights of other citizens whether a minority or the majority.

Inevitably extremism, whether of speech, expression or action compromises the freedoms of others and is abhorrent, irrespective of whether they are religious zealots or fascist racists. For society as a whole to allow itself to be intimidated by such evil people is to allow the fabric of our society to be threatened.

In the wider scale of things I would readily agree with you, however the difficulty starts when we're trying to draw a line between free speech, talk of extremism and the right of people to express justified concerns over social situations. I readily admit that I've not heard/read many of Geert Wilders' speeches, however the couple I have heard, although vocal, would seem to fall into the latter category, something recently confirmed to me by a Dutch friend who has been following the case in more detail. It seems that this trial is far more a case of a government not wishing to upset a significant voting minority than in trying to prevent extremism, and along the way is actually suppressing the right of free speech of the majority.

[LA]

Midas raises an interesting point. Where do we draw the lines on freedom to ensure it does not infringe on the freedoms others or becomes particularly unpleasant. Like some on this forum, I do not trust our Government to make that decision.

I would rather trust society to create a convention of freedoms and how absolute they are, then allow the state to dictate what our freedoms are.

[DC]

Geert Wilders has been engaging in generalised hate-speech towards Muslims for years. It's about time he faced trial. It's going to be a standard free speech v. hate speech argument, conducted in the high courts of The Hague.

It's good to criticise:

• militant Islam
• Imans who call for the death of heretics
• young Muslims who plot to blow up the London transport system
• the treatment of gays and women within conservative Islam

But the Muslim-haters don't do that. They mount generalised attacks on Muslims as a whole, and scream about their 'freedom of speech' and the horrors of 'political correctness' when told to put a cork in it. They mutter conspiracy theories about a 'European Caliphate' and accuse Muslims of breeding like rabbits. They use the cowardly 'I love Muslims but hate Islam' formulation to cover themselves from the race hate laws.

Well done The Hague for feeling Wilders' collar. I hope he's put in a cell with particularly lunatic Muslim greybeard. They're two sides of the same coin and deserve each other.

No, you can criticise other parts of the religion. You can criticise any ideology all you want, as long as you don't incite violence towards it. Wilders, to my knowledge, has never incited violence.

From what I understand about him, he criticises Islam as a whole as a backward religion, and points out many parts of it that in fact do incite terroism or violence. Now you may make the same argument about the Bible, but the difference is that the Bible is not literally interpreted by 99% of Christians, the Koran is widely interpreted literally among Muslims (this is probably due to both the condition of Muslim countries and Islam's relative youth).

[LeonGunning]

No, you can criticise other parts of the religion. You can criticise any ideology all you want, as long as you don't incite violence towards it. Wilders, to my knowledge, has never incited violence.

From what I understand about him, he criticises Islam as a whole as a backward religion, and points out many parts of it that in fact do incite terroism or violence. Now you may make the same argument about the Bible, but the difference is that the Bible is not literally interpreted by 99% of Christians, the Koran is widely interpreted literally among Muslims (this is probably due to both the condition of Muslim countries and Islam's relative youth).

I agree with this (even though my percentages are more lenient). I would also add that poverty and desperation has a lot to do with how much uptake "literal" and fundamentalist Islam has as well.

In the richer Muslim countries(Syria, Turkey, Egypt, Lebanon even Iran and eastern parts of Pakistan) you can see a lot more liberal interpretations; while in poorer places, (Gaza, Afghanistan, Saudi Arabia for instance) you see Wahabi and strict Sharia Law being observed.

I dont get into the scaremongering but I think the meta-goal of Wilders is to let Muslims know that Europe has recently surfaced from centuries of backward ideology, (religious and secular) and there is no way we are going back just to make immigrants feel a bit more comfortable in the short term.

[Balthazar]

the Koran is widely interpreted literally among Muslims

That's not true. It's a lie manufactured by Muslim-haters and 'European Caliphate' conspiraloons to justify their anti-Muslim prejudice. I've yet to meet a British Muslim who interprets the Koran literally.

What Muslims do do, when fellow-Muslims are slaughtered by Anglo-Saxon armies, and people at home make the sort of statement you've just made, is seek refuge in their faith and community. They batten down the hatches and show solidarity with each other. They defend themselves, quite properly, from people like you. Their religion and the network of Mosques is an ideal structure to co-ordinate that solidarity. They're 100% right to do so. You're the problem, not European Muslims.

Geert Wilders is a figurehead for European anti-Muslim conspiraloons and it's time the courts dealt with him. He's dripped hatred towards Muslims for years, frightening ordinary people going about their lawful business, stirring up hatred and fear between neighbours, providing a lightening rod for those, like you, who hold lunatic views about Muslims.

If Muslims are left alone, not poked with a stick, not slaughtered by foreign armies, not subjected to a drip-drip of lies, they're just like everyone else: wishing to get through life peacefully and provide for themselves and their families. It's great that Geert Wilders is up before the beak, and it's going to be highly amusing to watch the gnashing of teeth on this forum as your hero is defenestrated. About bloody time.

[LA]

What Muslims do do, when fellow-Muslims are slaughtered by Anglo-Saxon armies, and people at home make the sort of statement you've just made, is seek refuge in their faith and community. They batten down the hatches and show solidarity with each other. They defend themselves, quite properly, from people like you. Their religion and the network of Mosques is an ideal structure to co-ordinate that solidarity. They're 100% right to do so. You're the problem, not European Muslims.

Total rubbish.
If they were scared, fearful, upset, etc by Anglo Saxon armies, why the hell would they come to the Anglo Saxon Island? That does not make any sense.

OMG those nasty Europeans invaded and slaughtered us. Let's move to Europe! Sorry Balthazar, but that is about as ridiculous as your view!

I don't know about co-coordinating solidarity, but it can certain co-ordinate extremism.

We are not the problem. If Muslims don't like the British or our values etc, they should not come here. I don't go to Iran and demand democracy... To be fair, if I did I would get barbequed alive.

If you don't like somewhere, moving there is possibly the stupidest thing you could do. It would be like an Anti-Islamist moving to Iran... just plain stupid.

Geert Wilders is a figurehead for European anti-Muslim conspiraloons and it's time the courts dealt with him. He's dripped hatred towards Muslims for years, frightening ordinary people going about their lawful business, stirring up hatred and fear between neighbours, providing a lightening rod for those, like you, who hold lunatic views about Muslims.

lunatic views?

You mean by pointing out extremism and how it is a threat to west society? Damn those lunatics! How dare they share their views... This freedom of speech thing just isn't worth it.

If Muslims are left alone, not poked with a stick, not slaughtered by foreign armies, not subjected to a drip-drip of lies, they're just like everyone else: wishing to get through life peacefully and provide for themselves and their families. It's great that Geert Wilders is up before the beak, and it's going to be highly amusing to watch the gnashing of teeth on this forum as your hero is defenestrated. About bloody time.

The Middle East is not a peaceful place. Even before Western Intervention, it was not peaceful. These people have always fought with each other, and they have invaded and engaged in conquests of their own.

Yes Europe has fought itself, however, we learnt from our mistakes. Working together is better for us all than working in opposition of each other.

[Balthazar]

Total rubbish.
If they were scared, fearful, upset, etc by Anglo Saxon armies, why the hell would they come to the Anglo Saxon Island? That does not make any sense.

OMG those nasty Europeans invaded and slaughtered us. Let's move to Europe! Sorry Balthazar, but that is about as ridiculous as your view!

I don't know about co-coordinating solidarity, but it can certain co-ordinate extremism.

We are not the problem. If Muslims don't like the British or our values etc, they should not come here. I don't go to Iran and demand democracy... To be fair, if I did I would get barbequed alive.

If you don't like somewhere, moving there is possibly the stupidest thing you could do. It would be like an Anti-Islamist moving to Iran... just plain stupid.


lunatic views?

You mean by pointing out extremism and how it is a threat to west society? Damn those lunatics! How dare they share their views... This freedom of speech thing just isn't worth it.



The Middle East is not a peaceful place. Even before Western Intervention, it was not peaceful. These people have always fought with each other, and they have invaded and engaged in conquests of their own.

Yes Europe has fought itself, however, we learnt from our mistakes. Working together is better for us all than working in opposition of each other.

Before the Western slaughters in Iraq and Afghanistan, British Muslim communities were getting on fine. Not perfect - what group of people is? - but they were generally going about their lawful business in peace. The young people were slowly integrating, going through the British education system, mixing with whites, joining British institutions, doing what all immigrants do. The grip of Islam was slowly weakening, just as the power of all religions wane once you stuff money into people's pockets and give them some liberal freedoms. Ireland's a good example of that happening within a Christian community. Even in the current recession the Irish refuse to return to the priests.

All that was put into reverse once the Iraqi and Afghanistan slaughters occurred. British Muslims, faced with the killings abroad and prejudice at home - of the sort displayed daily on this forum, spearheaded by the likes of Geert Wilders - have, quite rightly, retreated into their religion. Again, it's what always happens in such situations. A God-fearing group of people find solace in their faith when under attack.

They've got Bin Laden on the one hand, dripping apocalyptic suicide-propaganda into their children's ears, and Western Muslim-haters on the other, inventing conspiracy theories, spreading lies, physically attacking them in their communities. It's a pincer-movement of lunatic extremism.

Bin Laden's pretty low morally, but the Muslim haters are even lower. They're picking on an embattled minority, libelling them, bullying them, telling lies about them, moralising at them, making them feel unwelcome in their own homes, and driving them into the arms of the suicide cult extremists.

The Muslim-haters on this forum and elsewhere are the political wing of Al-Qaeda. Geert Wilders is one of their High Priests. So it's great he's being ejected from his pulpit and may end up doing time. It will send a powerful message that Western society will act to defend itself from the Friends of Osama, whether they're setting a bomb on a London street, or pumping out lies and hatred on the internet.

[DC]

All that was put into reverse once the Iraqi and Afghanistan slaughters occurred. British Muslims, faced with the killings abroad and prejudice at home - of the sort displayed daily on this forum, spearheaded by the likes of Geert Wilders - have, quite rightly, retreated into their religion. Again, it's what always happens in such situations. A God-fearing group of people find solace in their faith when under attack.

First of all, Afghanistan was far from a slaughter, Al Qaeda was a threat to Britain and Afghanistan was its home. British Muslims should have supported that war if they want to call themselves British.

Secondly, I fail to see how Allah and Islam will protect them if its their clinging to Islam that has caused problems in the Middle East and creates antagonism elsewhere.

They've got Bin Laden on the one hand, dripping apocalyptic suicide-propaganda into their children's ears, and Western Muslim-haters on the other, inventing conspiracy theories, spreading lies, physically attacking them in their communities. It's a pincer-movement of lunatic extremism.

Oh those poor Muslims! It's no wonder they blow up buses and cower together in increasingly poorer and isolated communities further causing issues instead of fighting for themselves somewhere other than the alleys. You know what they should do? HARDEN THE F**K UP! You think the whole world is against Muslims? And they're the only ones facing discrimination? So that gives them a right to prosecute anyone who so much as questions their practices? All the while they continue to isolate themselves, fail to integrate into British society and cause crime. The Blacks are discriminated against, the Hindus, the Poles, hell in many countries whites are now discriminated against, yet it's Muslims who must be sheltered and protected and anybody who criticises them prosecuted.

The Muslim-haters on this forum and elsewhere are the political wing of Al-Qaeda. Geert Wilders is one of their High Priests. So it's great he's being ejected from his pulpit and may end up doing time. It will send a powerful message that Western society will act to defend itself from the Friends of Osama, whether they're setting a bomb on a London street, or pumping out lies and hatred on the internet.

So those who make fair criticism of Islam are on par with those who blow buildings and torture people? That makes sense, seeing how Islam is so special and all.

FYI Geert Wilders does not hate Muslims. He hates Islam and supports his postion by presenting facts. He has never incited violence against them, or incited others to hate them, apart from bringing criticism against them.

[Emmett Jenner]

The way I see it. This is simple. The problem with Muslims in Western democracies is that they are invading by the back door. I'm not trying to say anything nasty about Muslims or Islam here. They probably don't even know they're doing it. What I'm trying to do is explain a bit of logic which seems to pass others by.

The Islamic religion is not a religion the same as Christianity is in this country. Islam is a political system and a religion. Islam controls the lives of Muslims (to varying degrees depending on the individual)

Mosque's are Islamic council buildings. That's where the community organisers run their business.

Imagine if we were to go and setup a council building in another country - (never mind a Muslim country.) But lets say Haringey Council wanted to open a new Civic Centre in the middle of a Tehran suburb? Then start conducting business as usual as if they were a normal Greater London council? Would the leaders of that Islamic country allow that?

[Balthazar]

First of all, Afghanistan was far from a slaughter

B52s from Diego Garcia carpet bombed shepherds! British and US troops kill Afghan farm-boys every day. When they're not dropping 500lb bombs on wedding parties. Even the Germans had a go in September!

British Muslims should have supported that war if they want to call themselves British.

Why? Millions of British Anglo-Saxons don't support the war. Why should a special requirement be placed on British Muslims? The idea's preposterous!

I fail to see how Allah and Islam will protect them if its their clinging to Islam that has caused problems in the Middle East and creates antagonism elsewhere.

Could you attempt that argument again? I've read the words twice. They don't make sense.

You think the whole world is against Muslims?

No. I think you and a tiny minority of unpatriotic, unrepresentative, Muslim-haters are against Muslims. You've secured a foothold in this forum and operate as a jerk-circle. I enjoy debating with you because:

• it's so easy - your arguments are such trash
• you tend to become hysterical very quickly - which is amusing to watch

And they're the only ones facing discrimination?

No. Who said they are? You're becoming hysterical!

So that gives them a right to prosecute anyone who so much as questions their practices?

No. Who said they are? You're becoming hysterical!

All the while they continue to isolate themselves

Given the presence of Muslim-haters such as you I applaud British Muslims for not isolating themselves more. Faced with people like you, dripping hate and lies about their religion and culture, they have every right to retreat into a defensive posture.

So those who make fair criticism of Islam are on par with those who blow buildings and torture people?

No, I'm going further than that. I'm saying the Muslim haters, such as you and Geert Wilders, are morally inferior to Al-Qaeda. You know where you stand with AQ. They're dirty terrorists, killers of women and children. They don't pretend to be anything else. You, however, claim to be an upright citizen while you spew out your hate. So there's a level of hypocrisy attached to your position which is absent from the lowest Al-Qaeda operative.

FYI Geert Wilders does not hate Muslims. He hates Islam....

Ah! The old 'love Muslims hate Islam' formulation, as used by Nick Griffin on Question Time. It won't wash. Just be honest. Admit you hate the blighters. Don't be mealy-mouthed and PC like some North London social worker. Don't be a hypocrite. Face it. You're a paid up member of the political wing of Al-Qaeda, spreading hate and fear, doing their dirty work in cyberspace, sticking the knife in your neighbours.