The solution to the economic crisis

[Barry]

I've just had a brainwave. It may not be politcally correct.
The solution to the western world's economic crisis is...

... a cull of all people over 75 years of age.

Now which party is going to take this one on.

Savings:
Pensions
Health Service
Funding old people's homes.

Please discuss...

or should the age be lower?

[Balthazar]

Oh. My. God. You mentioned The Great Unmentionable: population control. Funny how the most important issue of the times is almost never discussed.

[Midas]

The way that climate and environmental change, however caused, are progressing, sooner or later we'll see a natural cull of tens or hundreds of millions of the world's population by way of drought, starvation and allied war, a contemporary Malthusian Correction if you like. But on a sustainability basis for the remainder of the Earth's population it'll be nowhere near enough unless it's catastrophic in scale. Sorry for being so cheerful; blame it on the weather!

But perhaps more along the lines that Barry originally meant, I have a dichotomous view. On one hand I think that too much emphasis is being placed on saving the lives of many people who would otherwise die natural deaths due to both serious illness and/or disability at birth and diseases of old age, however on the other hand I'm a great supporter of research to extend human life well beyond that which we currently experience.

[FactOrFiction]

We don't need to kill people, we just need to stop forcing them to live longer than they're supposed to

[fubar]

I've just had a brainwave. It may not be politcally correct.
The solution to the western world's economic crisis is...

... a cull of all people over 75 years of age.
Please discuss...

or should the age be lower?

why not include All murders and rapists or just anyone on the dole?

[Opinionated]

Lets include the disabled and anyone we happen to not like! Why hasn't anyone thought of this before? Oh hang on.....

[Barry]

Let's stick to the original (tongue in cheek) suggestion of over 75's.
Let's cost it out.
How much is spent in pensions and healthcare on over 75s - how many over 75s are there in Britain now?
It's not likely to bother youngsters like DougieG or Kiwi, but I'm well past middle age.
Who can cost it out - I know someone works in the treasury - they haven't got any money to handle at the moment, so maybe this project could fill in their free time.

EDIT:


Looks like it could be as many as 5 million!

[Opinionated]

Let's stick to the original (tongue in cheek) suggestion of over 75's.
Let's cost it out.
How much is spent in pensions and healthcare on over 75s - how many over 75s are there in Britain now?
It's not likely to bother youngsters like DougieG or Kiwi, but I'm well past middle age.
Who can cost it out - I know someone works in the treasury - they haven't got any money to handle at the moment, so maybe this project could fill in their free time.

EDIT:


Looks like it could be as many as 5 million!

Cool graph! Of course we have no idea how many in the ages 40 - 65 are going to live into their seventies, one big tsunami taking out Eastbourne - problem sorted - this threads getting dark isn't it?
Noseriously my suggestion is screw concerns of over population the younger generation had better make like bunnies and start creating the next generation to pay for it all.

[Tete123]

Cool graph! Of course we have no idea how many in the ages 40 - 65 are going to live into their seventies, one big tsunami taking out Eastbourne - problem sorted - this threads getting dark isn't it?
Noseriously my suggestion is screw concerns of over population the younger generation had better make like bunnies and start creating the next generation to pay for it all.

We could of course attempt to promote the concept of old age self sustenance by encouraging the younger generations to increase personal pension contributions and savings. The whole system is such that we have a sense of entitlement - receiving benefits for personal decisions such as producing children or simply by virtue of reaching old age. If the state was considerably rolled back to provide only the basic services then taxes could be reduced, meaning people kept more of their own money to invest how they chose. A small percentage of each weekly wage over 40+ years of employment would amount to considerably more than what the state can provide through its regime of taxation and ever increasing spending on public services.

Of course this falls down in practise as people have no understanding of personal responsibility - spending now with no consideration for the future.

[octopus]

I've just had a brainwave. It may not be politcally correct.
The solution to the western world's economic crisis is...

... a cull of all people over 75 years of age.

Now which party is going to take this one on.

Savings:
Pensions
Health Service
Funding old people's homes.

Please discuss...

or should the age be lower?

Some would say that a cull is going on now. My own mother saw 3 different doctors when she suffered a heart attack; not one picked up on it. A first aider could pick up on a heart attack, yet 3 highly exprienced doctors failed too. What would you think? And take the case of the Gosport War Memorial - 100 unexplained deaths under investigation, all of them elderely. Smells a bit, don"t you think? These old people deserve better than that. They should be given everything they need in terms of benefits - THE"VE EARNED THEM!

Ok, where can we cut back? Easy! Our overseas projects in Afgahnistan, and Iraq - out, straight away, and certainly no finacial aid to Iraq £800 bilion to the third world,to which our great leader intends to EVEN borrow, before he can give it to the black Hitlers that control these countries, which, again, is nothing to do with us, leave that to Oxfam, save the children - not one more penny of UK tax payers money, for this folly. Prisoners living in luxury: JUST CELL BLOCKS, and a pot to pee in. Free trips abroad to the West Indies for feral yobs, this is not only a joke - BUT DAMNED EXPENSIVE! The EU £60 billion a year.

Our priorities should be for the old, the vunerable, the genuine needy of the UK. Everbody else can take care of themselves, thus saving billions. I could go on all day about the wasted money on politcal correctness courses, health and safety courses, for the Police, council officials and other such bodies. If we just use our common sense, there would not be a economic crisis, the "do-gooders" won"t like it, but it would do the trick. What we should remember is, but for the over 75s, there would have been no future for our generation, so let"s have no more talk of genocide for this age group.

[JacquesMagique]

If we just use our common sense, there would not be a economic crisis,

Hahahaha.

Nothing makes me laugh more than a populist.

[octopus]

Hahahaha.

Nothing makes me laugh more than a populist.

Populist, or not, the books would balance through.

,

[JacquesMagique]

Thr budget deficit is not the most significant economic problem presently faced by the UK.

[Tete123]

Some would say that a cull is going on now. My own mother saw 3 different doctors when she suffered a heart attack; not one picked up on it. A first aider could pick up on a heart attack, yet 3 highly exprienced doctors failed too. What would you think? And take the case of the Gosport War Memorial - 100 unexplained deaths under investigation, all of them elderely. Smells a bit, don"t you think? These old people deserve better than that. They should be given everything they need in terms of benefits - THE"VE EARNED THEM!

Sorry to hear about your mother. Don't assume that the medical professional were highly experienced. There could be many reasons why they missed the heart attack but I'd certainly look into taking legal action as there would seem to be a case of medical negligence to answer at the hospital. Many hospitals across the land are facing issues, my local despite receiving a good report from the care commission , failed a subsequent check one month later. It's suspicious when a large number of people die in a locality or hospital in quick succession but not necessarily unheard of. I will pick you up on your statement "THEY'VE EARNED THEM" in relation to pensioners benefits; why have they earned them, simply by virtue of reaching old age? What if they have spent the last 50 years collecting state handouts, receiving free healthcare, prescriptions ect. Now I know it's too late to cut them from the umbilical cord of state subsidy but sorry these person would be far from deserving. The reverse argument can be made for those in a comfortable financial position, with private pension contributions and other investments providing a good quality of life, why should the state provide extra support when it clearly isn't needed.

Ok, where can we cut back? Easy! Our overseas projects in Afgahnistan, and Iraq - out, straight away, and certainly no finacial aid to Iraq £800 bilion to the third world,to which our great leader intends to EVEN borrow, before he can give it to the black Hitlers that control these countries, which, again, is nothing to do with us, leave that to Oxfam, save the children - not one more penny of UK tax payers money, for this folly. Prisoners living in luxury: JUST CELL BLOCKS, and a pot to pee in. Free trips abroad to the West Indies for feral yobs, this is not only a joke - BUT DAMNED EXPENSIVE! The EU £60 billion a year.

I'm not a supporter of the EU myself but where did you get the £60 billion a year figure from? It's grossly misleading. Your right we could save a small percent of GDP by removing ourselves from the EU, although the costs involved in renegotiating our trade deals would probably negate any savings in the short term and as we're reliant on imports there's no guarantee that we'd receive preferential agreements, particularly for energy. It might therefore be a good idea to stay in the EU at this time. I completely agree that international aid is pointless. I am of the same opinion as many economists that aid (particularly to Africa) perpetuates the cycle of dependency Africa currently has on international aid. We have yet to reach our goal of 0.7 percent of GDP and although it may cause problems I would seriously consider reneging on the Millennium Development Goals and cutting our international contributions and redirecting all aid to the United Kingdom. I fail to see a strong moral argument to continue supporting the Indian Space Program or various African dictatorships.

Yes prisons should be scaled back with only the basic facilities available and basic provision to education provided. I have been told by various people that it's a real struggle to find gainful employment when released from prison, so in an attempt to prevent recidivism all savings made in cutting back to the basic standards should be redistributed to programs offering support for those being released.

Our priorities should be for the old, the vunerable, the genuine needy of the UK. Everbody else can take care of themselves, thus saving billions. I could go on all day about the wasted money on politcal correctness courses, health and safety courses, for the Police, council officials and other such bodies. If we just use our common sense, there would not be a economic crisis, the "do-gooders" won"t like it, but it would do the trick. What we should remember is, but for the over 75s, there would have been no future for our generation, so let"s have no more talk of genocide for this age group.

Complete roll back of the state is required. This won't please many but why should the benefits system automatically provide for those with children? I have no children and if I did I would prefer to keep another 5 percent of my salary over a period of years rather than receive £20 per week. A family of 3 children would receive £46.40 per week why? As I said before, encourage personal saving and private pension contributions. If people can reach old age without a dependency on state sustenance , the better the country will be but also the better standard of lives they'll have. I also completely agree with you in regards killing the PC'ness and the Health and Safety industry - thus saving billions a year!

[JAMC]

I hate to point this out fellas, but the origin of periodically recurring crises such as these is not the total number of indivuals out there, but rather how the available resources are distributed amongst them.

[Midas]

I'm not a supporter of the EU myself but where did you get the £60 billion a year figure from? It's grossly misleading.......

There's a good, and pretty accurate, breakdown of the costs of the EU to be found here on the Taxpayer's Alliance website, where one of the first comments is that EU membership costs every EU citizen €2,460 (£1,968) a year.

[octopus]

Sorry to hear about your mother. Don't assume that the medical professional were highly experienced. There could be many reasons why they missed the heart attack but I'd certainly look into taking legal action as there would seem to be a case of medical negligence to answer at the hospital. Many hospitals across the land are facing issues, my local despite receiving a good report from the care commission , failed a subsequent check one month later. It's suspicious when a large number of people die in a locality or hospital in quick succession but not necessarily unheard of. I will pick you up on your statement "THEY'VE EARNED THEM" in relation to pensioners benefits; why have they earned them, simply by virtue of reaching old age? What if they have spent the last 50 years collecting state handouts, receiving free healthcare, prescriptions ect. Now I know it's too late to cut them from the umbilical cord of state subsidy but sorry these person would be far from deserving. The reverse argument can be made for those in a comfortable financial position, with private pension contributions and other investments providing a good quality of life, why should the state provide extra support when it clearly isn't needed.



I'm not a supporter of the EU myself but where did you get the £60 billion a year figure from? It's grossly misleading. Your right we could save a small percent of GDP by removing ourselves from the EU, although the costs involved in renegotiating our trade deals would probably negate any savings in the short term and as we're reliant on imports there's no guarantee that we'd receive preferential agreements, particularly for energy. It might therefore be a good idea to stay in the EU at this time. I completely agree that international aid is pointless. I am of the same opinion as many economists that aid (particularly to Africa) perpetuates the cycle of dependency Africa currently has on international aid. We have yet to reach our goal of 0.7 percent of GDP and although it may cause problems I would seriously consider reneging on the Millennium Development Goals and cutting our international contributions and redirecting all aid to the United Kingdom. I fail to see a strong moral argument to continue supporting the Indian Space Program or various African dictatorships.

Yes prisons should be scaled back with only the basic facilities available and basic provision to education provided. I have been told by various people that it's a real struggle to find gainful employment when released from prison, so in an attempt to prevent recidivism all savings made in cutting back to the basic standards should be redistributed to programs offering support for those being released.



Complete roll back of the state is required. This won't please many but why should the benefits system automatically provide for those with children? I have no children and if I did I would prefer to keep another 5 percent of my salary over a period of years rather than receive £20 per week. A family of 3 children would receive £46.40 per week why? As I said before, encourage personal saving and private pension contributions. If people can reach old age without a dependency on state sustenance , the better the country will be but also the better standard of lives they'll have. I also completely agree with you in regards killing the PC'ness and the Health and Safety industry - thus saving billions a year!

I assume that 3 GPs would be experienced over a St John"s ambulance man, or first aider, both of which should be able to pick up on a heart attack. So I would assume the worst in this case. As for 100 people dying in hospital, the case I refered too, this made national headlines - so it is unusal in that respect. True, there are spongers in every generation, but a lot of the over 75s are special. I say that because they were involved in the fight, against biggest threat to our freedom - the war on Hitler - that"s the reason I say the"ve earned it. True, you have some like Jack Straws father who sat in protest in a prison cell, because he thought we would do far better allowing Hitler to take over, but that is another story.

As for £60 billion on the EU, yes there conflicting amounts on that, which we get from the media, But I think, Why the hell should we pay one penny to this organisation? Most of the member states despise the English anyway, if our goods are competively priced, and of good quality - and in the main, I find they are, they will sell anyway. And why should we surrender our inderpendance? which is far important than money. And these member states are loving every minute of it.

It seems to me utter madness to give away tax payers cash when we are in an ecconomic crisis, to these various goverments in the third world. As you say some even have space programmes. Yes, you can blame the global problems to a certain extent, but it is the fudermentals , that would make all the difference - as well as give a morale boost.

[octopus]

We don't need to kill people, we just need to stop forcing them to live longer than they're supposed to

How long are people supposed to live for? A hundred years ago, 68, now 83. A hundred years from now, possibly 150, or even more, according to a science programme I saw the other day. If we don"t progress and help people live longer - WE ARE KILLING THEM.

[Tete123]

I assume that 3 GPs would be experienced over a St John"s ambulance man, or first aider, both of which should be able to pick up on a heart attack. So I would assume the worst in this case. As for 100 people dying in hospital, the case I refered too, this made national headlines - so it is unusal in that respect. True, there are spongers in every generation, but a lot of the over 75s are special. I say that because they were involved in the fight, against biggest threat to our freedom - the war on Hitler - that"s the reason I say the"ve earned it. True, you have some like Jack Straws father who sat in protest in a prison cell, because he thought we would do far better allowing Hitler to take over, but that is another story.

As for £60 billion on the EU, yes there conflicting amounts on that, which we get from the media, But I think, Why the hell should we pay one penny to this organisation? Most of the member states despise the English anyway, if our goods are competively priced, and of good quality - and in the main, I find they are, they will sell anyway. And why should we surrender our inderpendance? which is far important than money. And these member states are loving every minute of it.

It seems to me utter madness to give away tax payers cash when we are in an ecconomic crisis, to these various goverments in the third world. As you say some even have space programmes. Yes, you can blame the global problems to a certain extent, but it is the fudermentals , that would make all the difference - as well as give a morale boost.

I agree that three GP's should be able to diagnose a heart attack, my point was in relation to a personal experience where I attended hospital with a collapsed lung and received treatment from a neurologist - as I said there is probably a case for medical negligence and I strongly urge all in these cases to hold the relevant organisations to account, not so much for the financial reward as that is of secondary importance but to ensure that it goes on public record and inspection agencies are aware of the issues and take extra care in subsequent checks that standards have improved.

I understand we were talking at cross purposes in regards the £60 billion, I guess if you actually look at the combined cost to the British nation the figure is much higher (thanks for the link Midas) than the contribution Britain makes to the EU budget. I know our goods are competitively priced and of good quality, the issue is there isn't enough of them. Our manufacturing base has declined with the rise of the Asian competition particularly Indian and China producing good at a better price and price is the bottom line. My main concern with EU withdrawal is energy supply as all but one (I believe) of our state energy providers are foreign owned and our network of storage is lacking thus requiring a constant supply to flow into Britain. If we piss off Europe I expect this is where we'd feel the most pain. I would like us to negotiate our political ties with the EU and restore many aspects of our national independence but it really isn't as important as money. Yes Germany and France do, the rest are pretty insignificant in the scheme of things.

This country needs a morale boost - hopefully a Conservative election victory followed by England winning the World Cup will start of the tens or teens in a manner that will allow us to grow in the coming decade.

[octopus]

I agree that three GP's should be able to diagnose a heart attack, my point was in relation to a personal experience where I attended hospital with a collapsed lung and received treatment from a neurologist - as I said there is probably a case for medical negligence and I strongly urge all in these cases to hold the relevant organisations to account, not so much for the financial reward as that is of secondary importance but to ensure that it goes on public record and inspection agencies are aware of the issues and take extra care in subsequent checks that standards have improved.

I understand we were talking at cross purposes in regards the £60 billion, I guess if you actually look at the combined cost to the British nation the figure is much higher (thanks for the link Midas) than the contribution Britain makes to the EU budget. I know our goods are competitively priced and of good quality, the issue is there isn't enough of them. Our manufacturing base has declined with the rise of the Asian competition particularly Indian and China producing good at a better price and price is the bottom line. My main concern with EU withdrawal is energy supply as all but one (I believe) of our state energy providers are foreign owned and our network of storage is lacking thus requiring a constant supply to flow into Britain. If we piss off Europe I expect this is where we'd feel the most pain. I would like us to negotiate our political ties with the EU and restore many aspects of our national independence but it really isn't as important as money. Yes Germany and France do, the rest are pretty insignificant in the scheme of things.

This country needs a morale boost - hopefully a Conservative election victory followed by England winning the World Cup will start of the tens or teens in a manner that will allow us to grow in the coming decade.

I agree it would take us out of our comfort zone to leave the EU. However, I always say a comfort zone is damned uncomfortable, and if we are to grow to our former glory, we need to leave it. I believe we can operate outside the EU - according to one source, if Tony Blair believes it. True, we have competion from Asia, but can any western power compete with people being paid only a few pennies a day, whether we are in the EU or not. No, I think we can survive outside the EU, despite the volume of business. We have to address this problem of far eastern and Asian competion. It is not just a matter of business and finance. The British people are not used to living in the pockets of their european nieghbours: In fact the former French leader, Charles De Gualle, voted against our membership, many years ago, not out of spite for Britain, but respect for Britain; the British would never be happy with a fedral Europe, he said. Even he knew, this kind of system is alien to to Britain. And it is! We cannot pass our own laws, we are governed from europe, not Westminister, even have to pay for the privilage. In the european election, UKIP came second, ahead of THE GOVERMENT! That is a strong message, that the British public are not happy, with 13 MEPS. A British goverment is elected by the British people, to serve the British people - not our european masters. In years gone by we were in charge of our own destiny, and we can again. We have the know how, the money (if allocated correctly), the best brains in the world, and I think europe would trade, and deal with us without the Police State of the EU. Yes,on a brighter note, I think we have a good chance of winning the World cup, and I think the Tories will win. However, with respect, I don"t think they are the answer for a recovery, a bit too much like Labour for my likeing, although, I spent most of my life voting for them. Untill you put into action what I am proposing, and more, you won"t see much change, I"m afraid.

[Malky]

Get rid of the last of the real Brits that shaped the nation through hard work and discipline?

I'd rather see those who don't do anything for the country culled such as long term benefit spongers who have never worked a day in their lives and never intend to, immigrants who bring nothing to the country and bash it because they can such as Anjem Coudary and his followers and government members who should be tried for treason.

[DougieG]

The underlying assumption here is that elderly people bring nothing to the community any more, which is simply not true. If they remain active they can be a huge mine of inspiration and knowledge. My grandad for instance is over 80 yet spends his life sailing enormous tall ships around the world and teaching younger people how to do the same. A lot of old people are like that not just useless vegetables sitting at home watching the One Show.

[Malky]

The underlying assumption here is that elderly people bring nothing to the community any more, which is simply not true. If they remain active they can be a huge mine of inspiration and knowledge. My grandad for instance is over 80 yet spends his life sailing enormous tall ships around the world and teaching younger people how to do the same. A lot of old people are like that not just useless vegetables sitting at home watching the One Show.

My gran is 75 in March and she is always out and about and always has a good story to tell.

People seem to take away the character of the elderly in this country and try to put more faith into the youth who are mostly at present, unintelligible in most situations.

Makes you wonder what age gap has less in their brains sometimes.

[DougieG]

My gran is 75 in March and she is always out and about and always has a good story to tell.

People seem to take away the character of the elderly in this country and try to put more faith into the youth who are mostly at present, unintelligible in most situations.

Makes you wonder what age gap has less in their brains sometimes.

I would thanks this if it weren't for the ignorance about youth. We get a dreadful reputation and it is truly unfair. Most young people are not idiots with knives, the vast majority are nice and care about things like clothes, TV and pop music, not happy slapping. Most are also pretty intelligent on the whole, although I can express a disappointment with my generation's apathy towards politics.

[Kiwi 1691]

immigrants who bring nothing to the country and bash it because they can such as Anjem Coudary and his followers and government members who should be tried for treason.

And you say the youth are stupid?

Anyone can say what ever the hell they wish, or have the abolished the freedom of speach in the UK.

The British law of treason is entirely statutory and has been so since the Treason Act 1351 (25 Edw. 3 St. 5 c. 2). The Act is written in Norman French, but is more commonly cited in its English translation.
The Treason Act 1351 has since been amended several times, and currently provides for four categories of treasonable offences, namely:

• "when a man doth compass or imagine the death of our lord the King, or of our lady his Queen or of their eldest son and heir";
• "if a man do violate the King’s companion, or the King’s eldest daughter unmarried, or the wife of the King’s eldest son and heir";[6]
• "if a man do levy war against our lord the King in his realm, or be adherent to the King’s enemies in his realm, giving to them aid and comfort in the realm, or elsewhere"; and
• "if a man slea the chancellor, treasurer, or the King’s justices of the one bench or the other, justices in eyre, or justices of assise, and all other justices assigned to hear and determine, being in their places, doing their offices".

Another Act, the Treason Act 1702 (1 Anne stat. 2 c. 21), provides for a fifth category of treason, namely:

• "if any person or persons ... shall endeavour to deprive or hinder any person who shall be the next in succession to the crown ... from succeeding after the decease of her Majesty (whom God long preserve) to the imperial crown of this realm and the dominions and territories thereunto belonging".

By virtue of the Treason Act 1708, the law of treason in Scotland is the same as the law in England, save that in Scotland the slaying of the Lords of Session and Lords of Justiciary and counterfeiting the Great Seal of Scotland remain treason under sections 11 and 12 of the Treason Act 1708 respectively. [6] Treason is a reserved matter about which the Scottish Parliament is prohibited from legislating. Two acts of the former Parliament of Ireland passed in 1537 and 1542 create further treasons which apply in Northern Ireland.
The penalty for treason was changed from death to a maximum of imprisonment for life in 1998 under the Crime And Disorder Act. [7] Before 1998, the death penalty was mandatory, subject to the royal prerogative of mercy. Since the abolition of the death penalty for murder in 1965 an execution for treason was unlikely to be carried out.
Treason laws were used against Irish insurgents before Irish independence. However, IRA and other republican guerrillas were not prosecuted or executed for treason for levying war against the British government during the Troubles. They, along with loyalist militants, were jailed for murder, violent crimes or terrorist offences.
William Joyce was the last person to be put to death for treason, in 1946. (On the following day Theodore Schurch was executed for treachery, a similar crime, and was the last man to be executed for a crime other than murder in the UK.)
As to who can commit treason, it depends on the ancient notion of allegiance. As such, all British nationals (but not other Commonwealth citizens) owe allegiance to the Queen in right of the United Kingdom wherever they may be, as do Commonwealth citizens and aliens present in the United Kingdom at the time of the treasonable act (except diplomats and foreign invading forces), those who hold a British passport however obtained, and aliens who - having lived in Britain and gone abroad again - have left behind family and belongings.
See also the Treason Felony Act 1848.

[Kiwi 1691]

I've just had a brainwave. It may not be politcally correct.
The solution to the western world's economic crisis is...

... a cull of all people over 75 years of age.

Now which party is going to take this one on.

Savings:
Pensions
Health Service
Funding old people's homes.

Please discuss...

or should the age be lower?

Culling just abit inappropriate,

But it would be good for the economy.

It would be great for the NHS, alot of health funding is spent on old people.

So fiscally it would be good, but morally no

[octopus]

I would thanks this if it weren't for the ignorance about youth. We get a dreadful reputation and it is truly unfair. Most young people are not idiots with knives, the vast majority are nice and care about things like clothes, TV and pop music, not happy slapping. Most are also pretty intelligent on the whole, although I can express a disappointment with my generation's apathy towards politics.

Indeed they are not idiots - they have just been educated, brainwashed and brought up by idiots; it seemed to start to get worse about 1997. Can anybody see the connection?

[octopus]

Get rid of the last of the real Brits that shaped the nation through hard work and discipline?

I'd rather see those who don't do anything for the country culled such as long term benefit spongers who have never worked a day in their lives and never intend to, immigrants who bring nothing to the country and bash it because they can such as Anjem Coudary and his followers and government members who should be tried for treason.

I hardly think we can cull them: Spongers to work, immigrants, such as you mention, first plane home and goverment members Nuremburg Mark2. Culling, no. We are not savages, we"re British!

[DougieG]

Indeed they are not idiots - they have just been educated, brainwashed and brought up by idiots; it seemed to start to get worse about 1997. Can anybody see the connection?

Really? Most of us students on this site understand logic, evidence and argument far better than the average older one, who as a rule seem to base their ideas on feelings and ideologies (there are many exceptions to this, mind you). The state has no real control over how kids think in the UK, it is all down to the individual teachers.

Your premise is flawed from the beginning regardless. If I were a right winger like you you would probably say that I had broken free from the brainwashing or something like that. You're basing what you say on what my views are, not on what the system actually does. There's a worrying number of right wing students, just as there are plenty of lefties, this diversity could not exist if we were being 'brainwashed'...

[Midas]

Really? Most of us students on this site understand logic, evidence and argument far better than the average older one, who as a rule seem to base their ideas on feelings and ideologies (there are many exceptions to this, mind you). The state has no real control over how kids think in the UK, it is all down to the individual teachers.

I disagree with you in part of what you say here Dougie. Whilst there certainly are some younger forum members who understand logic etc better than some older members, the balance is nowhere as clear cut as you seem to imply, and 'feelings', which tend to get based on life experience, are often as valuable, if not more so in some instances, than theoretical knowledge.

However where I think we do disagree far more; the state does indeed have some significant control over how kids think; maybe not overtly, however over the last decade or so in particular, the school curriculum has undergone several quite major shifts in emphasis to reflect a far more socialist view. A highly significant example of this is the way that 'equality' is pushed in the classroom, both in teaching methods (inclusion of less able students and concerted attempts to remove streaming) and the way that the competitive element of human behaviour has been reduced to a shadow of its former self, with kids getting rewarded for even taking part in something, not just for winning. Some subjects themselves have also subtly changed to reflect more left wing ideologies too, the way that 'citizenship classes' are structured being a good example. Things like this add up and over time produce a more and more socialist leaning society. Having never seen a school or experienced lessons prior to all this you wouldn't really be expected to be aware of it, but for those of us who have, the changes are quite alarming and in part are a cause of the significant rise in social unrest and lazy attitudes over the last decade and a half.

[DougieG]

I disagree with you in part of what you say here Dougie. Whilst there certainly are some younger forum members who understand logic etc better than some older members, the balance is nowhere as clear cut as you seem to imply, and 'feelings', which tend to get based on life experience, are often as valuable, if not more so in some instances, than theoretical knowledge.

I was being deliberately provocative to an extent. Life experience is dubious as evidence, in my experience. It tends to just make people more conservative due to a general feeling that things can't change. Of course, the attitude that things can't change is the only barrier to them doing so!

However where I think we do disagree far more; the state does indeed have some significant control over how kids think; maybe not overtly, however over the last decade or so in particular, the school curriculum has undergone several quite major shifts in emphasis to reflect a far more socialist view. A highly significant example of this is the way that 'equality' is pushed in the classroom, both in teaching methods (inclusion of less able students and concerted attempts to remove streaming) and the way that the competitive element of human behaviour has been reduced to a shadow of its former self, with kids getting rewarded for even taking part in something, not just for winning. Some subjects themselves have also subtly changed to reflect more left wing ideologies too, the way that 'citizenship classes' are structured being a good example. Things like this add up and over time produce a more and more socialist leaning society. Having never seen a school or experienced lessons prior to all this you wouldn't really be expected to be aware of it, but for those of us who have, the changes are quite alarming and in part are a cause of the significant rise in social unrest and lazy attitudes over the last decade and a half.

I never experienced any of the things you describe above - only excellence was celebrated at my school, citizenship classes barely existed and classes were ability set (they are at most schools, don't think otherwise). This was certainly the norm in my area, though perhaps not nationally, I will admit ignorance. We can only form our views off what we know, but I am happy to change mine. I know the school I was at has changed. In many ways my age group was the last of the 'old' (if you can call something 6 or 7 years old 'old'), the ones below us picked up the lurking pieces of crap awaiting them in our aftermath. We were the last to do proper science GCSEs, the last not to start GCSEs in year 9, the last doing most of the A level courses before they were changed. Bad choices all around, but we aren't seeing the negative effects of it yet - it isn't fair to blame problems on these things that have only existed for a year or two. Wait five more years or so.

[JacquesMagique]

I never experienced any of the things you describe above - only excellence was celebrated at my school, citizenship classes barely existed and classes were ability set (they are at most schools, don't think otherwise). This was certainly the norm in my area, though perhaps not nationally, I will admit ignorance. We can only form our views off what we know, but I am happy to change mine. I know the school I was at has changed. In many ways my age group was the last of the 'old' (if you can call something 6 or 7 years old 'old'), the ones below us picked up the lurking pieces of crap awaiting them in our aftermath. We were the last to do proper science GCSEs, the last not to start GCSEs in year 9, the last doing most of the A level courses before they were changed. Bad choices all around, but we aren't seeing the negative effects of it yet - it isn't fair to blame problems on these things that have only existed for a year or two. Wait five more years or so.

My experience of school is much the same as this. Setting according to ability is generally the norm, I think?

What do you mean about citizenship Midas?

[Midas]

What do you mean about citizenship Midas?

See the Wikipedia entry at Citizenship education - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia, which is a fairly accurate description. Of particular note in the context of a left wing bias, we have the ways that multiculturalism, equal opportunities and human rights are taught to kids; having seen the curriculum on this it reads as if it's been extracted from the Labour Party manifesto and is undeniably biased and unobjective, the cynical might say in order to subtly indoctrinate the next generation from an early age!

[octopus]

Really? Most of us students on this site understand logic, evidence and argument far better than the average older one, who as a rule seem to base their ideas on feelings and ideologies (there are many exceptions to this, mind you). The state has no real control over how kids think in the UK, it is all down to the individual teachers.

Your premise is flawed from the beginning regardless. If I were a right winger like you you would probably say that I had broken free from the brainwashing or something like that. You're basing what you say on what my views are, not on what the system actually does. There's a worrying number of right wing students, just as there are plenty of lefties, this diversity could not exist if we were being 'brainwashed'...

If you don"t have feelings and ideology, you are just a machine; so I do base my arguements on feelings and what I believe in. Also, I base them against my experience of life in general, and people that I meet in everyday life - which you don"t really have when you are a student. Children and students are being brainwashed by this goverment, I know this, by a number of incidents I have heard about. In our schools: White children are punished by teachers, whilst ethnics get off scott free for the same offence, white children had to sit on the floor whilst Asian children sit on chairs, all in the name of PC and they are taught to be ashamed of our great country, when they should be proud of its history - and this goes onto University level. True, this didn"t start in 1997, it has been going on for decades. But messers Brown/Blair have made it 10 times worse. You say it is worrying about right-wing students, to me that is a lifeline for our great country, it means some people are not easily brainwashed. The Bulk of students, or ex-students that I come accross are of left-wing ideaolgy, and I see it in everyday life, after they have gratuated; frankly, I fear for our future - as I could tell of many more incidents of left-wing bias.

[DougieG]

If you don"t have feelings and ideology, you are just a machine; so I do base my arguements on feelings and what I believe in. Also, I base them against my experience of life in general, and people that I meet in everyday life - which you don"t really have when you are a student. Children and students are being brainwashed by this goverment, I know this, by a number of incidents I have heard about. In our schools: White children are punished by teachers, whilst ethnics get off scott free for the same offence, white children had to sit on the floor whilst Asian children sit on chairs, all in the name of PC and they are taught to be ashamed of our great country, when they should be proud of its history - and this goes onto University level. True, this didn"t start in 1997, it has been going on for decades. But messers Brown/Blair have made it 10 times worse. You say it is worrying about right-wing students, to me that is a lifeline for our great country, it means some people are not easily brainwashed. The Bulk of students, or ex-students that I come accross are of left-wing ideaolgy, and I see it in everyday life, after they have gratuated; frankly, I fear for our future - as I could tell of many more incidents of left-wing bias.

Most of the right-wingers I know are the unthinking ones. There is an enormous bias against socialism in schools these days. Maybe there is a multiculturalist ideology that is pushed in SOME schools (your stories about anti white racism are definitely wrong) but generally most teachers are very dismissive of socialism as an ideology. I'm lucky, I have had a lot of outside school experience. Students are not introverted cliques of intellectuals, it may surprise you to know.

[Expounder]

My gran is 75 in March and she is always out and about and always has a good story to tell.

People seem to take away the character of the elderly in this country and try to put more faith into the youth who are mostly at present, unintelligible in most situations.

Makes you wonder what age gap has less in their brains sometimes.

If the current younger generation lived on the calories consumed by today's current pensioners through their lives and were as active as today's pensioners in their youth It would save the state including the NHS billions in treatment and benefits.

Today's people of working age who gorge themselves into the condition of unemployable obesity are the biggest problem.and drain on the state. At least today's pensioners worked most of their lives contributed their share into the national kitty and had the same proportion of their earnings deducted at source through their working lives, and who worked the whole of their lives.

Today's population suffering from self inflicted obesity and are unemployable will have contributed little or nothing into the kitty, but regard it their right for billions to be spent on treating their condition through the NHS and benefit payments. Forget today's pensioners who have paid their dues, the states biggest problem for the present and in the future is the large section of society who will be expected to be supported by the state because of their refusal or inability to control their calorie intake.

[octopus]

Most of the right-wingers I know are the unthinking ones. There is an enormous bias against socialism in schools these days. Maybe there is a multiculturalist ideology that is pushed in SOME schools (your stories about anti white racism are definitely wrong) but generally most teachers are very dismissive of socialism as an ideology. I'm lucky, I have had a lot of outside school experience. Students are not introverted cliques of intellectuals, it may surprise you to know.

I find that a very interesting reply indeed. I have relatives in the education industry, and they are defianately left-wing thinkers (live like Tories, mind you), but I don"t normally disscus politics with them, as it would finsh up with unpleasantness. Also, I ran a sales team a few years ago, and some of the people I recruited into it on a part basis were teachers, they were of a liberal, socialist, outlook. However, I suppose it would depend on where you went, and who was running the school or college, but a left-wing bias is the norm in my experience. Evil racist ideoloy IS pushed in our schools, as a friends 5 year old son was made to sit on the floor with other white children, whilst Asian children sat on chairs. Also, I was speaking to a lady who cooks school dinners in a Portsmouth school, which has 85% Muslim pupils, she knows that as they have to have diet, espeacialy cooked for them. Anyway, she witnesed a Muslim boy insult a white boy, and it was the white boy that was told off - no action taken against the Asian boy, although he started the trouble. Also, I seem to recall a ballet teacher persecuted because she belonged to the BNP. I thought this was a free country.

[DougieG]

I find that a very interesting reply indeed. I have relatives in the education industry, and they are defianately left-wing thinkers (live like Tories, mind you), but I don"t normally disscus politics with them, as it would finsh up with unpleasantness. Also, I ran a sales team a few years ago, and some of the people I recruited into it on a part basis were teachers, they were of a liberal, socialist, outlook. However, I suppose it would depend on where you went, and who was running the school or college, but a left-wing bias is the norm in my experience. Evil racist ideoloy IS pushed in our schools, as a friends 5 year old son was made to sit on the floor with other white children, whilst Asian children sat on chairs. Also, I was speaking to a lady who cooks school dinners in a Portsmouth school, which has 85% Muslim pupils, she knows that as they have to have diet, espeacialy cooked for them. Anyway, she witnesed a Muslim boy insult a white boy, and it was the white boy that was told off - no action taken against the Asian boy, although he started the trouble. Also, I seem to recall a ballet teacher persecuted because she belonged to the BNP. I thought this was a free country.

Not sure what you expect me to say. There are idiots who think racism against white people = tolerance, but not many of them. The boy sitting on the floor, I bet the teacher didn't say 'whites on the floor, asians on chairs'. Plus, they were 5! I barely ever sat on a chair at school at that age. The boy getting told off, well yeah whatever. Can't you imagine that if a BNP member witnessed someone shout 'raghead' at an asian in a turban, they would certainly blame the asian if nastiness ensued? Not necessarily what happened obviously, but allow me not to take it at face value.

[Opinionated]

I have relatives in the education industry

They publish text books? produce desks perhaps?

and they are defianately left-wing thinkers (live like Tories, mind you),

No in all seriousness I guess that when you are at the front line of an area most likely to be effected by government initiatives then you are more likely to be engaged by politics and teaching has always been heavily unionised; but I refute the fact that most teachers are left wingers, or students for that matter. Although academia has always attracted a large number of "proper" left wingers for obvious reasons.

Evil racist ideoloy IS pushed in our schools, as a friends 5 year old son was made to sit on the floor with other white children, whilst Asian children sat on chairs.

I've been trying to think of a religious festival which might require somebody not to sit on the floor but I can't, surely some explanation was offered for this happening?

Also, I was speaking to a lady who cooks school dinners in a Portsmouth school, which has 85% Muslim pupils, she knows that as they have to have diet, especially cooked for them.

Not especially cooked if it's for the overwhelming majority is it, but local authorities have always offered Halal/Kosher meals to pupils as far as I know, even if there were only one or two?

[Midas]

No in all seriousness I guess that when you are at the front line of an area most likely to be effected by government initiatives then you are more likely to be engaged by politics and teaching has always been heavily unionised; but I refute the fact that most teachers are left wingers, or students for that matter. Although academia has always attracted a large number of "proper" left wingers for obvious reasons.

Although I've never been involved in teaching in any respect, during the few years that I was with my last partner, that's emphatically not what I found. I'd say that a significant majority of the teachers at her school were left wing, some quite militantly so. But perhaps this is something that varies from school to school and from region to region, so no firm conclusions can be drawn.

[octopus]

Not sure what you expect me to say. There are idiots who think racism against white people = tolerance, but not many of them. The boy sitting on the floor, I bet the teacher didn't say 'whites on the floor, asians on chairs'. Plus, they were 5! I barely ever sat on a chair at school at that age. The boy getting told off, well yeah whatever. Can't you imagine that if a BNP member witnessed someone shout 'raghead' at an asian in a turban, they would certainly blame the asian if nastiness ensued? Not necessarily what happened obviously, but allow me not to take it at face value.

I would think it would be more diplomaticaly put accross than, but that is what happend, and that is disgraceful whether against ethnics or whites. The fact that they were 5 year-olds makes it worse. Human beings should not be sitting on floors - that"s for animals. I can tell you the boys"s mother was not then a member of any political organistion, or is she now. If only one case occurrs, that is one too many. If an Asian is insulted, or indeed anybody it should treated impartialy, with apropriate action. I am sorry, but this PC gone mad, and that is why a lot more people are supporting other parties, as the people that support racism against the whites are more than think - just look at last years riots; with more to come. The price we pay for mass immigration, which has been a disaster for Britain.

[Opinionated]

I would think it would be more diplomaticaly put accross than, but that is what happend, and that is disgraceful whether against ethnics or whites. The fact that they were 5 year-olds makes it worse. Human beings should not be sitting on floors - that's for animals.

every single one of the four to seven year olds in any of the classes I help in sits on the floor at some point during the day, do you not remember sitting in assembly with your legs crossed? I had to right up to the age of 15 - I know this because chairs were a privelege reserved for the upper school.

I can tell you the boys's mother was not then a member of any political organistion, or is she now. If only one case occurrs, that is one too many. If an Asian is insulted, or indeed anybody it should treated impartialy, with apropriate action. I am sorry, but this PC gone mad, and that is why a lot more people are supporting other parties, as the people that support racism against the whites are more than think - just look at last years riots; with more to come. The price we pay for mass immigration, which has been a disaster for Britain.

Once again we do not know the full facts of this particular case, there may have been many reasons why an Asian boy was given a chair over a white boy that have nothing to do with creed or colour. You can not prove it was because of any sort of latent politically correct policy within the school, this is sort of hearsay evidence of pc within our institutions is annoying at best and a smokescreen excuse for racism at worst.

[DougieG]

but this PC gone mad

The cry of those who don't actually want to UNDERSTAND, just blame.

[octopus]

every single one of the four to seven year olds in any of the classes I help in sits on the floor at some point during the day, do you not remember sitting in assembly with your legs crossed? I had to right up to the age of 15 - I know this because chairs were a privelege reserved for the upper school.
Once again we do not know the full facts of this particular case, there may have been many reasons why an Asian boy was given a chair over a white boy that have nothing to do with creed or colour. You can not prove it was because of any sort of latent politically correct policy within the school, this is sort of hearsay evidence of pc within our institutions is annoying at best and a smokescreen excuse for racism at worst.

A bit of a coincidence, that the all pupils that were on the floor, where WHITE, and all those in seated were ETHNIC. Sorry, I don"t believe in coincidence like that. Racism at it"s worse! Yes, I certanily agree on that. With the greatest of respect, everybody that lives in the real world, knows what has been going in Britain, for many years now - and not only in schools and Universities. This goverment has made a bit to obvious. Not only what I have been told by friends, read and seen in the media - but seen with my own eyes - and that is just the tip of the iceberg.

[DougieG]

and not only in schools and Universities

There were a grand total of, out of around 1,200 students, THREE black people at my old school, and around 20 asians. It was the best state school in the county. Most minorities went to the less good school down the road. At my university, there are 6 black people out of around 300 in my year in my college, and about as many asians (though there are a few international students from Singapore who refuse to socialise). Again, one of the best universities in the country. It's a joke that people like you believe what you read in the Mail about minorities/immigrants taking all the places.

[Greg Lance-Watkins]

I find that a very interesting reply indeed. I have relatives in the education industry, and they are defianately left-wing thinkers (live like Tories, mind you), but I don"t normally disscus politics with them, as it would finsh up with unpleasantness.

I have little doubt you are correct based on knowing quite a number of teachers and Uni. lecturers over the last few years and the extent of communist promoted left wing political correctness has clearly dominated education for a number of years - but like most propaganda it is insidious and rarely noticed by those exposed to it.

The frog in the pan well explains that! That we have The Frankfurt School, Stonewall, ALF, AFL, Fabians, Rowntree Trust, NSU, Teacher's Unions, and a Labour Government all meddling in schools it would of course be idiotic to claim schools were not clearly left wing but with the management structure and such as Common Purpose involved it is hardly surprising that they are sufficiently adept as to dupe the naiive and inexperienced.

Also, I ran a sales team a few years ago, and some of the people I recruited into it on a part basis were teachers, they were of a liberal, socialist, outlook. However, I suppose it would depend on where you went, and who was running the school or college, but a left-wing bias is the norm in my experience. Evil racist ideoloy IS pushed in our schools, as a friends 5 year old son was made to sit on the floor with other white children, whilst Asian children sat on chairs. Also, I was speaking to a lady who cooks school dinners in a Portsmouth school, which has 85% Muslim pupils, she knows that as they have to have diet, espeacialy cooked for them.

Could you find out the name of the school as I regret without factual support of this statistic I consider it unlikely to be remotely accurate.

Anyway, she witnesed a Muslim boy insult a white boy, and it was the white boy that was told off - no action taken against the Asian boy, although he started the trouble.

Minded that her skill set is as a cook I do find this a far from reliable witness - particularly in the light of the very dubious percentage quoted above.

Also, I seem to recall a ballet teacher persecuted because she belonged to the BNP. I thought this was a free country.

I believe you will find the lady in question was a professional ballet dancer at Covent garden who openly espoused and promoted her support of the BNP who are indisputably a vile organisation espousing extreme racism and anti Judaism which refuses to renounce or denounce its roots in the extremist American white supremacist movement which funded their early days - and their funding by the vile Lady Birdwood and her anti Jewish stance aided by the odious Jon Tyndall.

As an entertainer and part of a very mixed team in the tourist business it was felt her outspoken political views were inappropriate but perhaps you can inform us all of the political affiliations of Darcy Bushell and the last 5 principle dancers at the Royal!

I trust this helps clarify!

Regards,
Greg L-W.

[octopus]

There were a grand total of, out of around 1,200 students, THREE black people at my old school, and around 20 asians. It was the best state school in the county. Most minorities went to the less good school down the road. At my university, there are 6 black people out of around 300 in my year in my college, and about as many asians (though there are a few international students from Singapore who refuse to socialise). Again, one of the best universities in the country. It's a joke that people like you believe what you read in the Mail about minorities/immigrants taking all the places.

Dougie, I don"t have to rely on the mail! As I have already said I know individuals, as well as seen it with my own eyes. other members have accussed me of not reading their post correctly - now, with respect, I am saying that to you. Schools do vary from area to area - and school to school. Some schools in Portsmouth have a very small numbers of black pupils, whilst others, the WHITES are in the minority. Also, the thing to bear in mind is that Portsmouth is a long way from being the most multi-cultrual city in Britain: London, Birmigham, Luton, Leeds, Bradford among others, would make Portsmouth look like Britain of a hundred years ago- yet some people in Portsmouth, are living in fear of an Islamic takeover - even through some parts of it are almost 100% white. I have realtives in London - there in parts, such as: Camberwell, Brixton, Peckham, most areas of the East end, have large ethnic populations - WHITES are in the minority. How do I know? I have seen it with my own eyes; my parents left London, with me, 40 years ago for this very reason. So, I don"t need any fiqures from the media - this has been my life for 40 years, which shows mass immigration has been a Major disaster, as Enoch Powell predicted, at about the time we moved from London.

[DougieG]

Dougie, I don"t have to rely on the mail! As I have already said I know individuals, as well as seen it with my own eyes. other members have accussed me of not reading their post correctly - now, with respect, I am saying that to you. Schools do vary from area to area - and school to school. Some schools in Portsmouth have a very small numbers of black pupils, whilst others, the WHITES are in the minority. Also, the thing to bear in mind is that Portsmouth is a long way from being the most multi-cultrual city in Britain: London, Birmigham, Luton, Leeds, Bradford among others, would make Portsmouth look like Britain of a hundred years ago- yet some people in Portsmouth, are living in fear of an Islamic takeover - even through some parts of it are almost 100% white. I have realtives in London - there in parts, such as: Camberwell, Brixton, Peckham, most areas of the East end, have large ethnic populations - WHITES are in the minority. How do I know? I have seen it with my own eyes; my parents left London, with me, 40 years ago for this very reason. So, I don"t need any fiqures from the media - this has been my life for 40 years, which shows mass immigration has been a Major disaster, as Enoch Powell predicted, at about the time we moved from London.

What's wrong with having large numbers of minorities (who still only make up around 10% of the population, incidentally)? Are they not human like us? Some of the most patriotic Brits I know are asian or black, most whites are completely apathetic towards nationality (which is, frankly, a good thing).

[Midas]

What's wrong with having large numbers of minorities (who still only make up around 10% of the population, incidentally)? Are they not human like us? Some of the most patriotic Brits I know are asian or black, most whites are completely apathetic towards nationality (which is, frankly, a good thing).

I don't think that Octopus is saying there's anything wrong with having minorities per se Dougie, he's simply pointing out that in some areas indigenous white pupils are in a very significant minority, and that fact alone is cause for concern. My own experience of the education system is limited I'll quite agree, however during several years of living with the head of a large inner city junior and infants school I have seen some of the problems which can arise from this imbalance, both in her school and in other schools in the area. Regardless of what you might think, or what you might want other people to think, when the cultural balance turns in favour of minorities and lesser regard is paid to British customs, tradition, language, religion......, and in particular when that imbalance is supported by unfair and often divisive laws, people are going to get upset or angry.

[octopus]

What's wrong with having large numbers of minorities (who still only make up around 10% of the population, incidentally)? Are they not human like us? Some of the most patriotic Brits I know are asian or black, most whites are completely apathetic towards nationality (which is, frankly, a good thing).

10% of the popuation now perhaps, as Gordon Brown doesn"t even know the true fiqure. Ok, firstly, I have nothing against ethnics. Immigration, should be with the issue of a visa only - and a contract. However, if we go on burying our heads in the sand, that 10%, could be 50% by 2040, 70% by 2070 by the end of the century the minority could become the majority. If you want to end up like the native Americans - CARRY ON! That is the goal of Islam, incidenetally. As for those unpatriotic whites, brought up in the "red brick "system, will change when they see it affect them - as will yourself.