Burn a Koran Day

[5K3PT1C]

I watched a news report on the BBC today that said that a Christian group had organised a "Burn a Koran Day" at their local church in California on 11th September. Apparently it's exactly what it says on the tin - turn up for the opportunity to burn what a large chunk of the world would consider a sacred and holy text.

I have already made my position on Islam clear. I think it's open to abuse by extremists who claim to be able to use certain bits to justify the mass murder of non-muslims (or Muslims of the "wrong sort"), the oppression of women and other practices that should rightly horrify sensible, moral people. Although these practices are not condoned by the majority of Muslims throughout the world, Islam is covertly (and overtly) working it's way into the societies of non-muslim countries and I do worry that as time goes on we will start to feel a little overwhelmed to say the least.

Before I get carried away, I'd better get back to the topic of this thread - I just wanted to make it clear that my objection to "Burn a Koran Day" doesn't mean that I don't have a big spoonful of "Islamaphobia" (lit. the objection to the secret invasion of my country) waiting for the next debate on the subject.

If blasting villages full of tribesmen with cruise missiles and attack helicopters wasn't enough of a propaganda boost for the Islamic extremists out there, "we" (by which I mean the western world) are going to burn their holy book. If the aim of this Christian group was to help to swell the ranks of Al Quaeda then bravo. "Behold, the actions of the West," they'll say, and lump us all in together!

But of course, that's not what they're going for. Apparently it's a demonstration of "defiance" against radical Islam. Most pople in the western world think that burning bibles and American flags makes Muslims look stupid so why sink to that? It contradicts your claim that the US is the land of the free.

MY ADVICE TO THOSE ORGANISING THIS EVENT:
Use the publicity that this controversy has given you and say that you've cancelled the event because you're better than that - but wait until everyone is there and take a collection for comfort parcels to send to frontline soldiers. You'll get lots of money because everyone will be feeling fired up and patriotic. Then you'll have done some good rather than being controversial for the sake of it.

NOTE TO ADMINS - SURPRISED THAT I COULDN'T FIND AN EXISTING THREAD ON THIS. IF ONE ALREADY EXISTS AND I MISSED IT I APOLOGISE!

[flash]

There is a small sect of Christians that have what I would call extreme views. This small little church of about 50 people is along the same lines as the church that protest the burial of American servicemen because they think the military condones homosexuality, which is false. They are pretty well nutso.

I have a couple of different views on it.

First I don’t care one way or the other about the friggin Muslims. They can kiss my Cracker ass but I don’t feel the need to burn their book. To do so would make me like them.

The other view I have is more important. The people in the church have the right to exercise their free speech and do whatever they want but it is a very stupid thing to do because American servicemen may get hurt because of it. The filthy Muslims are bonkers and will use this as an excuse to attack American soldiers and that is not a good thing. The life of an American soldier is not worth the free speech right of the church.

The government should not intervene but American citizens should put a stop to it. There are people in the state talking about it now. The church may get a visit from a few veterans’ organizations that may get a little militant.

For General Patraeus to say something is very significant. American Generals do not normally comment on domestic issues. He must be very concerned.

[DaveUK]

IMO, this vulgar profane act is ridiculous, and serves no purpose. As flash says, they should be regarded no better than the Westborough Baptist nut jobs that picket funerals, and call for the execution of homosexuals. And they do indeed lower themselves to the same level as Islamic looneys that burn books and flags.

. The life of an American soldier is not worth the free speech right of the church.

Really? I thought that's what their purpose was, to deffend the constitution.

[Greg Lance-Watkins]

Hi,

by what pretence do these odious people pretend to calling themselves Christian?

This is just one of America's cults for the bewildered of which there are many passing themselves off as so called Christian.

There seem to be incredibly few Christians in America and a great deal of isolationist hatred founded on ignorance and propaganda but in a country where less than 15% have and have used a passport for travel beyond their borders one can not be surprised at their lack of understanding of world affairs or international relations.

It is interesting to note that America does not have a trained and qualified diplomatic service and considers in many instances that 'Celebs' are apposite as Ambassadors!

That one of these cracker cults wants to make a spectacle of itself is unsurprising - you need only to look at Christian cults like The Church of Latter Day Saints - Mormon - Jeeeehovaaah's Wetnurse - the Cash for Contribution Churches - The Holy Rollers of the Bibble Belt - The Davidians - The born again nutters and literally 100s more.

General Petraus was quite right (IF a bit bl**dy late!) this leads to strengthening the Taliban and WILL cost US lives.

A pity that crook Bush and his cronies didn't think of this before invading the middle east to try to prop up the US Dollar!

I gather Dick Cheyney is currently in hospital and for those who believe in gods is likely to get his grubby little come-uppance shortly - perhaps he could beckon for the rest!

Regards,
Greg_L-W.

[flash]

There seem to be incredibly few Christians in America and a great deal of isolationist hatred founded on ignorance and propaganda but in a country where less than 15% have and have used a passport for travel beyond their borders one can not be surprised at their lack of understanding of world affairs or international relations.

First of all you are wrong on the percentage of passports in the US like you are wrong on just about everything you post. There have been about 60 million passports issued in the US in the last ten years. There are no official sources because the government doesn’t publish that stat but most sources say says it is about double the amount you cited which isn’t bad considering we have oceans on each side and only in post 911 did we need a passport for Canada or Mexico.

Americans travel abroad when they want to but they also like to stay at home because the rest of the world is a craphole for the most part. Who in the hell wants to travel when there are so many disgusting places to go in the world, including Europe? I have been to you country several times and it is boring as hell.

The novelty of going to your country and visiting your museums and seeing the loot you plundered from the rest of the world wore off before I even graduated from high school.

If you are trying to claim some kind of moral superiority over Brits traveling abroad you should see these sorry overweight big belly chumps walking around Disneyworld with their pasty white skins, cigarette stuck in their mouths and their obnoxious children crying about the heat. God forbid you get on the road with them while driving because they don’t clue on how to drive safely or stay on the right side of the road.

Americans don’t give a crap about the rest of the world. The rest of the world are losers for the most part and traveling abroad to see the losers isn’t as productive as a use of time as you seem to think it is.

[Greg Lance-Watkins]

Hi,

poor old flash has got more hangups than broadway theater coat checks!

He tells us a more upto date number of passports sorry I overlooked all the Mexicans.

Why not lock yourself in a cupboard it won't take you long to find a shelf to argue with!

It must be terrible to have so little self confidence you have to prove every point.

frankly I could care less if America has 10 passports each.

Regards,
Greg_L-W.

[DC]

Not that I support their acts, I think it's a bit rich of the world to so condemn these people so much when in Islamic countries flags and effigies of Western countries and people are burnt so often it's almost regular, without any condemnation, and with thousands of people attending, not just fringe psychos.

[manrow]

I have already made my position on Islam clear. I think it's open to abuse by extremists who claim to be able to use certain bits to justify the mass murder of non-muslims (or Muslims of the "wrong sort"), the oppression of women and other practices that should rightly horrify sensible, moral people. Although these practices are not condoned by the majority of Muslims throughout the world, Islam is covertly (and overtly) working it's way into the societies of non-muslim countries and I do worry that as time goes on we will start to feel a little overwhelmed to say the least.



If blasting villages full of tribesmen with cruise missiles and attack helicopters wasn't enough of a propaganda boost for the Islamic extremists out there, "we" (by which I mean the western world) are going to burn their holy book. If the aim of this Christian group was to help to swell the ranks of Al Quaeda then bravo. "Behold, the actions of the West," they'll say, and lump us all in together!

But of course, that's not what they're going for. Apparently it's a demonstration of "defiance" against radical Islam. Most pople in the western world think that burning bibles and American flags makes Muslims look stupid so why sink to that? It contradicts your claim that the US is the land of the free.

MY ADVICE TO THOSE ORGANISING THIS EVENT:
Use the publicity that this controversy has given you and say that you've cancelled the event because you're better than that - but wait until everyone is there and take a collection for comfort parcels to send to frontline soldiers. You'll get lots of money because everyone will be feeling fired up and patriotic. Then you'll have done some good rather than being controversial for the sake of it.

Isn't glorifying certain bits from religious works the way that all religions carry on, not just Islam?

[DaveUK]

First of all you are wrong on the percentage of passports in the US like you are wrong on just about everything you post. There have been about 60 million passports issued in the US in the last ten years. There are no official sources because the government doesn’t publish that stat but most sources say says it is about double the amount you cited which isn’t bad considering we have oceans on each side and only in post 911 did we need a passport for Canada or Mexico.

Americans travel abroad when they want to but they also like to stay at home because the rest of the world is a craphole for the most part. Who in the hell wants to travel when there are so many disgusting places to go in the world, including Europe? I have been to you country several times and it is boring as hell.

The novelty of going to your country and visiting your museums and seeing the loot you plundered from the rest of the world wore off before I even graduated from high school.

If you are trying to claim some kind of moral superiority over Brits traveling abroad you should see these sorry overweight big belly chumps walking around Disneyworld with their pasty white skins, cigarette stuck in their mouths and their obnoxious children crying about the heat. God forbid you get on the road with them while driving because they don’t clue on how to drive safely or stay on the right side of the road.

Americans don’t give a crap about the rest of the world. The rest of the world are losers for the most part and traveling abroad to see the losers isn’t as productive as a use of time as you seem to think it is.

There are people you can talk to you know, you don't have to go through this alone.

This is just one of thousands of "crap holes" in the US. Maybe you should travel around your own country a little more before you bash other countries. There are quite a lot of countries around the world that were not "crap holes" until the US interfeared with them.

http://www.torontorealtyblog.com/wp-.../11/ghetto.jpg

Your assessment on Gregs comments about passport numbers in the US is misleading. The main reason for the increase in the last 9 years is because of restrictions implimented after 9/11. The majority of US passport holders use them to travel inside the American continent.

[DaveUK]

in a country where less than 15% have and have used a passport for travel beyond their borders .
.

Don't say it like it's a bad thing

[DTE]

Americans travel abroad when they want to but they also like to stay at home because the rest of the world is a craphole for the most part. Who in the hell wants to travel when there are so many disgusting places to go in the world, including Europe? I have been to you country several times and it is boring as hell.

You are aware that Europe is not a country yeah?

The novelty of going to your country and visiting your museums and seeing the loot you plundered from the rest of the world wore off before I even graduated from high school.

Coming from the country that stole its land and systematically killed the natives thats high praise indeed.

If you are trying to claim some kind of moral superiority over Brits traveling abroad you should see these sorry overweight big belly chumps walking around Disneyworld with their pasty white skins, cigarette stuck in their mouths and their obnoxious children crying about the heat. God forbid you get on the road with them while driving because they don’t clue on how to drive safely or stay on the right side of the road.

Americans are well known for being slim and athletic so I take your point. The land of "super size" meals, all you can eat buffets and spray on cheese sets the health bar pretty high.

Americans don’t give a crap about the rest of the world. The rest of the world are losers for the most part and traveling abroad to see the losers isn’t as productive as a use of time as you seem to think it is.

Are you 12?

[flash]

Coming from the country that stole its land and systematically killed the natives thats high praise indeed.

I know they don’t teach much history in European schools but you do know that the British stole a lot of land in North America from your precious Native Americans long before the US was even established, don’t you? Are you also aware that the British stole all of Canada from your precious Native Americans? If we want to talk about natives being displaced by your British then lets us not forget South Africa. Of course one of the worst genocides in the history of the world happen when you Brits showed up in Australia and killed most of the Aborigines.

You have no high horse to climb upon.

[Midas]

Can we please get this back on topic rather than have it degenerate into yet another bash America or bash Europe session!

[Nicholas]

There are people you can talk to you know, you don't have to go through this alone.

This is just one of thousands of "crap holes" in the US. Maybe you should travel around your own country a little more before you bash other countries. There are quite a lot of countries around the world that were not "crap holes" until the US interfeared with them.

http://www.torontorealtyblog.com/wp-.../11/ghetto.jpg

Your assessment on Gregs comments about passport numbers in the US is misleading. The main reason for the increase in the last 9 years is because of restrictions implimented after 9/11. The majority of US passport holders use them to travel inside the American continent.

I could post pictures of many boarded up city centers or aging dumps of council estates neglected by the conservatives and labour alike in britain if you wish?
Your point being?
Do you have any official evidence that the majority of passports in the US are only used for domestic use?

[Nicholas]

I know they don’t teach much history in European schools but you do know that the British stole a lot of land in North America from your precious Native Americans long before the US was even established, don’t you? Are you also aware that the British stole all of Canada from your precious Native Americans? If we want to talk about natives being displaced by your British then lets us not forget South Africa. Of course one of the worst genocides in the history of the world happen when you Brits showed up in Australia and killed most of the Aborigines.

You have no high horse to climb upon.

Flash , dont take any notice of this anti american diatribe you are being subjected to. The vast majority of brits are pro American. And tell that joker that the most obese nation in the world is actually Australia, which is full of Brits.

http://www.timesonline.co.uk/tol/lif...cle4171160.ece

[Greg Lance-Watkins]

Not that I support their acts, I think it's a bit rich of the world to so condemn these people so much when in Islamic countries flags and effigies of Western countries and people are burnt so often it's almost regular, without any condemnation, and with thousands of people attending, not just fringe psychos.

Hi,

do we not lose the high ground when supposedly educated American's leap into the uncivilised gutter and act just like those they denigrate.

I would be considerably happier if the simple peasants of the world incited by evil prattling prelates all stuck to burning flags rather than a single blow was swung in the name of one of these idiotic home grown gods.

Leave the evil priests, thir mumbo jumbo and their jujus of hate in the darkness they have earned.

Regards,
Greg_L-W.

[Greg Lance-Watkins]

Don't say it like it's a bad thing

Hi,

I made it as a statement I believe to be true if some sddo is so insecure they want a fight about it let them win - if they want to believe 200% of Americans have passports which they have used for extensive world travel let them - why would anyone care there are aggressive nutters in every country.

I do see burning the books of peoples' varied superstitions as symbolic of inadequacy they are clearly unable to provide an example the others may wish to follow.

If cvhristianity has so withered that it resorts to this clearly it is on the wane as with Islam's last hissy fit in the face of education which steadily neuters all these superstitions as they become more clearly the weapons of state to control and tax people.

Regards, Greg_L-W.

[DTE]

Flash , dont take any notice of this anti american diatribe you are being subjected to. The vast majority of brits are pro American.

Evidence please. Unless you mean pro American music/TV/film, most people I speak to are very much anti-American. And with good reason. One thing Flash is correct on, is that the most Americans don't give a **** about the rest of the world. Unless they are planning on invading/destroying/bombing it of course. I'm not anti-the American people, rather the arrogance that defined the last administration and that was so prevalent in flash's post.

And tell that joker that the most obese nation in the world is actually Australia, which is full of Brits.

Australia beats US to title of most obese nation, report finds - Times Online

You just told me yourself. Nice one Nick, I wondered if you'd still be filling this sewer with your inane ramblings. Nice to see you are. I never said we were the most overweight nation, I said we were not as bad as the Americans, something which the source you cited backs up.

I think as the Americans would say thats a "swing and a miss".

Now before Midas has an aneurysm over this off-topic ness, I should just say that although what this church is doing is idiotic and will only provoke retaliation, the fact is it only has 50 members, so the real fault lies with the media and those who wish to promote this story when really all it boils down to is "handfull of idiots plan something stupid" which considering their location, is not exactly unprecedented.

[DaveUK]

Hi,

I made it as a statement I believe to be true if some sddo is so insecure they want a fight about it let them win - if they want to believe 200% of Americans have passports which they have used for extensive world travel let them - why would anyone care there are aggressive nutters in every country.

I do see burning the books of peoples' varied superstitions as symbolic of inadequacy they are clearly unable to provide an example the others may wish to follow.

If cvhristianity has so withered that it resorts to this clearly it is on the wane as with Islam's last hissy fit in the face of education which steadily neuters all these superstitions as they become more clearly the weapons of state to control and tax people.

Regards, Greg_L-W.

Sorry Greg, I was being facetious
Ok, looks like we have to ignore the ludicrous history revission from the usual suspect(s), and stay on topic.
With regard to religious book burning, I think the Christian faith is still way out there in front.
I would agree with an earlier point you made about this type of fundamentalist nonsense being a distortion of Christianity, at least as it is practiced by moderates in most of Europe.
Whether this kind of action is a perversion of puritan Biblical Chrstianity is debatable. It was Paul that preached that Christians should not think above what is written (meaning what he had written, and Hebrew scriptures), and that the scriptures were sufficient for knowledge etc, that no other written authority was necessary. The litteral following of Biblical texts can lead to extremism. The westborough Baptists know scripture inside out, back to front, and act on it as they interpret it. And if you read the passages they often quote, they're doing what those texts tell them to do.
I would also argue that the so called core doctrines of Jesus, are far from ethical or moral.

[flash]

Evidence please. Unless you mean pro American music/TV/film, most people I speak to are very much anti-American.

I wish you tell that to the tens of thousands of Brit tourists that are in Orlando every week. That way the roads wouldn't be so crowded when I drive over to see my granddaughter.

If you don't like the US then that is fine. Just don't come here and don't demand that we save your ass whenever you get in trouble. That would be great.

[DaveUK]

I could post pictures of many boarded up city centers or aging dumps of council estates neglected by the conservatives and labour alike in britain if you wish?
Your point being?

I'm sure you could, so could I. The point is clear though. It was infered that the rest of the world is a "crap hole" compaired to the US, which is plainly nonsense.

Do you have any official evidence that the majority of passports in the US are only used for domestic use?

I didn't say they were.

[Nicholas]

Evidence please. Unless you mean pro American music/TV/film, most people I speak to are very much anti-American. And with good reason. One thing Flash is correct on, is that the most Americans don't give a **** about the rest of the world. Unless they are planning on invading/destroying/bombing it of course. I'm not anti-the American people, rather the arrogance that defined the last administration and that was so prevalent in flash's post.


You just told me yourself. Nice one Nick, I wondered if you'd still be filling this sewer with your inane ramblings. Nice to see you are. I never said we were the most overweight nation, I said we were not as bad as the Americans, something which the source you cited backs up.

I think as the Americans would say thats a "swing and a miss".

Now before Midas has an aneurysm over this off-topic ness, I should just say that although what this church is doing is idiotic and will only provoke retaliation, the fact is it only has 50 members, so the real fault lies with the media and those who wish to promote this story when really all it boils down to is "handfull of idiots plan something stupid" which considering their location, is not exactly unprecedented.

The evidence is in the amount of popular culture and heritage we share , our governments special relationships, the millions of brits who go on holiday to the states and vice versa - the list is seemingly endless. Great Britain owes a great debt to the United states and its people whether its through their efforts against the kaiser , the nazis or its financial help it gave Britain to help rebuild us. Its only left wing socialist scum(usually clueless student,the great unwashed and old hardcore trade unionists) who have sided with the likes of the khmer rouge, pol pot , the ruskies and any of the other tin pot socialist/communist countries that ultimately failed in the past - who despise America.

Let me guess? you have a che guevara t shirt and think patriotism is bad?

[Greg Lance-Watkins]

Flash , dont take any notice of this anti american diatribe you are being subjected to. The vast majority of brits are pro American. And tell that joker that the most obese nation in the world is actually Australia, which is full of Brits.

Australia beats US to title of most obese nation, report finds - Times Online

Hi,

strange isn't it that this chap flash is so very damaging to America, which so many of us support and like, yet he endlessly feels so insecure he attacks and insults quite literally everyon. Are we sure he isn't a Cuban imigrant sheltering in Florida as he does endlessly bring America into disrepute.

Your second point on obesity is interesting is it a factor of failed people then having money and gorging?

We must also remember there are nowadays many greeks an Balkan peoples living in the extensive clap board slums of Australia, people who seem to have a natural propensity for obesity and it could be the same ethnic mix with failure in the massive slums and trailer parks of America that are the base of obesity.

Obesity has interestingly spread with almost the same expansion patern as does a virus with the same layout of morbid obesity as with a virus - a coincidence or is it a type of virus we do not as yet understand.

It seems to be most common alongside poverty in otherwise affluent areas and may well be due to not so much quantity of food but quality as pre-prepared foods would seem to be high on the diet of the obsese.

PLEASE:
This is not a suggestion for an acrimonious argument so please if you feel like being offensive, abusive and plain ignorant could you join Flash elsewhere.

I find the issue of obesity interesting in terms of health.

Perhaps some jogging would do more for the society than some idiots burning books, whatever the book may be!

Regards,
Greg_L-W.

[Nicholas]

Hi,

strange isn't it that this chap flash is so very damaging to America, which so many of us support and like, yet he endlessly feels so insecure he attacks and insults quite literally everyon. Are we sure he isn't a Cuban imigrant sheltering in Florida as he does endlessly bring America into disrepute.

Your second point on obesity is interesting is it a factor of failed people then having money and gorging?

We must also remember there are nowadays many greeks an Balkan peoples living in the extensive clap board slums of Australia, people who seem to have a natural propensity for obesity and it could be the same ethnic mix with failure in the massive slums and trailer parks of America that are the base of obesity.

Obesity has interestingly spread with almost the same expansion patern as does a virus with the same layout of morbid obesity as with a virus - a coincidence or is it a type of virus we do not as yet understand.

It seems to be most common alongside poverty in otherwise affluent areas and may well be due to not so much quantity of food but quality as pre-prepared foods would seem to be high on the diet of the obsese.

PLEASE:
This is not a suggestion for an acrimonious argument so please if you feel like being offensive, abusive and plain ignorant could you join Flash elsewhere.

I find the issue of obesity interesting in terms of health.

Perhaps some jogging would do more for the society than some idiots burning books, whatever the book may be!

Regards,
Greg_L-W.

Ha ha your sanctimonious holier than thou atitude and ramblings make me piss

[flash]

Flash , dont take any notice of this anti american diatribe you are being subjected to. The vast majority of brits are pro American. And tell that joker that the most obese nation in the world is actually Australia, which is full of Brits.

Australia beats US to title of most obese nation, report finds - Times Online

That is OK, I understand. I have been to your country several times and I know you are a decent lot and that Left Wing idiots like that post on here sometimes are not the norm.

My father and my uncle both fought in WWII along side the Brits and they were very proud of their service.

I served in the military in Europe to help protect the UK from the Soviets and also served along side UK troops and I am proud of my duty.

If the UK was ever really in trouble Conservative Americans like me would be the ones to save you, even if it wasn't in our interest to do so. The Liberal Americans like the Left Wing Euros that post here and bash the US would be the ones that would not be there for you.

We aren't perfect by a long shot but as many people in the world have proclaimed many times we are mankind's last hope for freedom, even though we don't act like it at times.


I went to a meeting of my militia group this morning and they are really pissed at the piss ant church in Gainesville for putting our troops in jeopardy. It is that way all over the state of Florida. I would not be surprised if this jerkoff doesn’t have a surprise on Saturday. Our troops have a hard enough job as it is without morons like him making their job harder.

[Greg Lance-Watkins]

Ha ha your sanctimonious holier than thou atitude and ramblings make me piss

Hi,

have you thought of nappies until you grow up?

Regards,
Greg_L-W.

[DTE]

The evidence is in the amount of popular culture and heritage we share ,

You mean like the stuff I referenced in my earlier post?

our governments special relationships,

Oh yeah, thats working out well for us. Between being dragged into 2 wars, one illegal, getting our hands dirty with rendition, adopting an unfair extradition treaty and generally being seen as America's bitch on the world stage, I'd say the special realtionship is great.

the millions of brits who go on holiday to the states and vice versa - the list is seemingly endless. Great Britain owes a great debt to the United states and its people whether its through their efforts against the kaiser , the nazis or its financial help it gave Britain to help rebuild us.

I have no problem accepting and being grateful for the American allies during WW2. My position was against the post cold war USA, who see themselves as the only superpower left, and can therefore police the world accordingly. I acknowledged the popular culture praise (hey most of my favourite films, TV and music is from the US) its the stance the country takes on international affairs that gets my goat. True, this has lessened under Obama somehwat, and guess what? Its those same US right wing types that defended Bush II and his disasterous wars (where WE helped THEM out by the way) who are angry.

Its only left wing socialist scum(usually clueless student,the great unwashed and old hardcore trade unionists) who have sided with the likes of the khmer rouge, pol pot , the ruskies and any of the other tin pot socialist/communist countries that ultimately failed in the past - who despise America.

Again, read my post. I have no problem with Americans as a people per se, its the arrogance of flash (especially in his 'the rest of the world are losers' post) and the attitudes of people like him when it comes to matters of international importance that I despise.

Let me guess? you have a che guevara t shirt and think patriotism is bad?

No and no. I think this country could do with a bit of patriotism in fact. Unfortunately, patriotism outside of football support in this country is usually only practiced by nationalist types and then is most often mixed in with some unsavoury comment about foreigners. We've had 20 years of weak government, really its no suprise that national pride is at a low.

[Nicholas]

That is OK, I understand. I have been to your country several times and I know you are a decent lot and that Left Wing idiots like that post on here sometimes are not the norm.

My father and my uncle both fought in WWII along side the Brits and they were very proud of their service.

I served in the military in Europe to help protect the UK from the Soviets and also served along side UK troops and I am proud of my duty.

If the UK was ever really in trouble Conservative Americans like me would be the ones to save you, even if it wasn't in our interest to do so. The Liberal Americans like the Left Wing Euros that post here and bash the US would be the ones that would not be there for you.

We aren't perfect by a long shot but as many people in the world have proclaimed many times we are mankind's last hope for freedom, even though we don't act like it at times.


I went to a meeting of my militia group this morning and they are really pissed at the piss ant church in Gainesville for putting our troops in jeopardy. It is that way all over the state of Florida. I would not be surprised if this jerkoff doesn’t have a surprise on Saturday. Our troops have a hard enough job as it is without morons like him making their job harder.

I have been to the states a couple of times , my sister is married to an American and works as a teacher in Atlanta so i have a fair bit of knowledge about America and its people first hand. I always found Americans really easy folks to get on with. I have nothing but respect for Americans and America. Sure the country has made a fair few bunders and bad decisions but so has allmost any other country.

[flash]

. Between being dragged into 2 wars, one illegal,

That reminds me of the two wars my country got dragged into by the pro UK lobby; WWI and WWII. The second war could be argued as being illegal because we had laws in place to prevent interventionism in Europe which Roosevelt ignored. Nobody can ever explain to me why we sent troops to Europe when the people attacked us in 1941 were Japanese. We lost about 500,000 men fighting your European wars for you and you were damn glad we were there. In fact your Prime Minister is reported to have danced a jig when he heard that 2,000 Americans had been killed at Pearl Harbor because he figured a savior was coming to his rescue.

Blair was just as strong a proponent of removing Saddam from power as Bush. I can provide the quotes if you are uneducated on that. Instead of blaiming everything on Bush (like all Left Wingers love to do) why don't you take responsibility for the actions of your own government?

As far as Afghanistan goes it was a NATO decision to send troops after one of the member states was attacked in September of 2001. You have heard of NATO haven’t you? The UK strongly benefited from NATO when the Soviets were threatening your little island along with every other European country with almost 2 million troops in East Europe. I know because as a NATO troop I was stationed far from my home in 1967 with the mission to protect your country from an attack by the Soviet Third Shock Army.

If your country is so weak in diplomatic skills as to be “dragged’ into a war that is not in your best interest then you better explain that to Greg Lance what-his-face because he is under the impression that the UK is the one country in the world that has diplomatic skills and the US is bad at it. He will be very surprised and agitated to hear your arguments that the UK is weak minded and the US ate your lunch diplomatically when it comes to foreign policy.

[Greg Lance-Watkins]

I have been to the states a couple of times , my sister is married to an American and works as a teacher in Atlanta so i have a fair bit of knowledge about America and its people first hand. I always found Americans really easy folks to get on with. I have nothing but respect for Americans and America. Sure the country has made a fair few bunders and bad decisions but so has allmost any other country.

Hi,

that not withstanding at least we know now that YOU may think hippies smell but since your admission we actually know it is YOU and due to your incontinence you are trying to blame Hippies.

Is the nappy working?

Regards,
Greg_L-W.

[DTE]

That reminds me of the two wars my country got dragged into by the pro UK lobby; WWI and WWII. The second was could be argued as being illegal because we had laws in place to prevent interventionism in Europe which Roosevelt ignored. Nobody can ever explain to me why we sent troops to Europe when the people attacked us in 1941 were Japanese. We lost about 500,000 men fighting your European wars for you and you were damn glad we were there. In fact your Prime Minister is reported to have danced a jig when he heard that 2,000 Americans had been killed at Pearl Harbor because he figured a savior was coming to his rescue.

Blair was just as strong a proponent of removing Saddam from power as Bush. I can provide the quotes if you are uneducated on that. Instead of blaiming everything on Bush (like all Left Wingers love to do) why don't you take responsibility for the actions of your own government?

I do not take responsibility for the actions of my government when I oppose the action it is taking. Sure, on issues of tax or domestic policy then fair enough, you must accept that in a democracy you won't get your own way all the time. But in domestic policy it is at least the actions of the whole government. When Blair took us to war it was in effect a massive con-job. Now we can argue the logistics of who knew what and when all day, and each person's take on this usually defines their opinion on the war itself. The sticking point is whether you believe Blair was outright lying, or was simply too eager to believe. What is clear is the intelligence was dodgy, I and everyone else remember the 45 minute dossier. We were sold war on THAT dossier. Then the whole Dr Kelly affair and the steady stream of horror stories from the Iraq enquiry come along and the whole period just gets dodgier and dodgier. The fact that neither of our 2 largest parties opposed the war is a sign of how weak-willed they were, and that cowardice should be investigated too. But there was significant outcry at the time and still is. Our current deputy prime minster described the war as illegal only weeks ago in parliament. Don't think Tony Blair is a hero here. He can't even have a book signing without getting pelted by shoes, and has canceled 2 public engagements just this week. The man is hated. He did a suprisingly candid interview on the BBC and basically admitted the decision was an act of faith and not based on the evidence. For that he is negligent, as others may also be, and they should be tried accordingly.

But I fear that is never going to happen.

As far as Afghanistan goes it was a NATO decision to send troops after one of the member states was attacked in September of 2001. You have heard of NATO haven’t you? The UK strongly benefited from NATO when the Soviets were threatening your little island along with every other European country with almost 2 million troops in East Europe. I know because as a NATO troop I was stationed far from my home in 1967 with the mission to protect your country from an attack by the Soviet Third Shock Army.

Yes I am aware of NATO and thanks for the history lesson. Tell me flash do you ever consider arguments on the merits of the specific point at hand, or do you always just let loyalty to history define your opinion? I am curious at this point

If your country is so weak in diplomatic skills as to be “dragged’ into a war that is not in your best interest then you better explain that to Greg Lance what-his-face because he is under the impression that the UK is the one country in the world that has diplomatic skills and the US is bad at it. He will be very surprised and agitated to hear your arguments that the UK is weak minded when it comes to foreign policy.

Hi Greg is sorely and surely, mistaken.

The truth is we are dependent on the US in a whole range of areas. Whether that prevented anyone of importance growing a set of balls (besides Robin Cook) I don't know but I'm sure it played a part. But the Iraq war is the defining moment in the public's opinion on Tony Blair, Bush and by extention American foreign policy. Our country is still recovering and will be for ages because of that gigantic cock-up and I do not take responsibility for it, neither do I of the other subsequent actions which I referenced earlier (rendition, extradition, civil liberties violations).

[Greg Lance-Watkins]

That reminds me of the two wars my country got dragged into by the pro UK lobby; WWI and WWII. The second war could be argued as being illegal because we had laws in place to prevent interventionism in Europe which Roosevelt ignored. Nobody can ever explain to me why we sent troops to Europe when the people attacked us in 1941 were Japanese. We lost about 500,000 men fighting your European wars for you and you were damn glad we were there. In fact your Prime Minister is reported to have danced a jig when he heard that 2,000 Americans had been killed at Pearl Harbor because he figured a savior was coming to his rescue.

Blair was just as strong a proponent of removing Saddam from power as Bush. I can provide the quotes if you are uneducated on that. Instead of blaiming everything on Bush (like all Left Wingers love to do) why don't you take responsibility for the actions of your own government?

As far as Afghanistan goes it was a NATO decision to send troops after one of the member states was attacked in September of 2001. You have heard of NATO haven’t you? The UK strongly benefited from NATO when the Soviets were threatening your little island along with every other European country with almost 2 million troops in East Europe. I know because as a NATO troop I was stationed far from my home in 1967 with the mission to protect your country from an attack by the Soviet Third Shock Army.

If your country is so weak in diplomatic skills as to be “dragged’ into a war that is not in your best interest then you better explain that to Greg Lance what-his-face because he is under the impression that the UK is the one country in the world that has diplomatic skills and the US is bad at it. He will be very surprised and agitated to hear your arguments that the UK is weak minded and the US ate your lunch diplomatically when it comes to foreign policy.

Hi,

again you sad little man in your inadequacy you resort to abuse dragging the reputation of America back into the gutter you seemingly live in.

I am glad a job as a grunt with NATO kept you off welfare and you were able to push some forms around in Viet Nam but that grants you no right to endlessly be abusive and offensive and lie by misquoting people.

Dishonesty does not help you make America look anything but inadequate - although you may not realise it and may feel a need to denigrate anything and everything perhaps you hadn't realised that you do not share your inadequacy with your country - it is yours and largely yours alone.

No one said our country was weak it was stated we had had a number of years of weak government whilst of course you had none merely commercial rip off by a corrupt claque of dishonest politicians - indeed we had 13 unlucky years with men with much in common with your appauling self serving self enriching political scum that had gained control.

Do check your facts - America has never had a Diplomatic corp - that may be a good thing but I would tend to think not. I do concede ours has been hugely denigrated by its politicisation and now laterly by the mallign EU.

I now appreciate why you have a short fake name - it is not because you are too ashamed to put your own name to your unpleasant posts it is because you can not remember longer names nor have the intelligence to check back.

Do you drink a great deal? I have noticed you tend to become more offensive as your day wears on.

Regards,
Greg_L-W.

[Nicholas]

Hi,

that not withstanding at least we know now that YOU may think hippies smell but since your admission we actually know it is YOU and due to your incontinence you are trying to blame Hippies.

Is the nappy working?

Regards,
Greg_L-W.

Hilarious

[flash]

I do not take responsibility for the actions of my government when I oppose the action it is taking.

My country gets it wrong on many issues. However, being a citizen of the US I do take responsibility for what my government does. I am sure as hell not going to blame another country for the actions of my government. Our Founding Fathers taught us that if the government gets out of control then we need to get rid of the bastards one way or another. I haven’t taken to the streets with my assault weapons yet so the fault is mine.

For instance, the damn Israelis have bought our elected officials to provide security for their little brutal apartheid theocracy. It is disgusting and it has caused a lot of problems fro the US. However, I don’t blame the Israelis. I blame the elected idiots in the US that listen to the demands of a foreign government instead of the needs of the people of the US.

You should learn to do the same and not blame the US for the perceived problems of the UK.

You have a lot of problems you need to deal with like being close to bankruptcy, poor health care system and a declining industrial base. As long as you spend your time pointing your figure at GW Bush or some other bogeyman for your problems instead of dealing with them head on then you then are destined for failure.

In other words grow up as a nation and take responsibility for your own actions.

[Greg Lance-Watkins]

Hi,

I undertstand that a barage of sensible comment from sane Americans and the rest of the world and the seemingly self styled pastor Terry Jones, from the Dove World Outreach Center in Gainesville, Florida has withdrawn his childish stunt to burn Qorans on the 11/09 in protest at Islamic centre being built in NY on a vacant site near the Trade Centre site.

He apeared with a moderate and intelligent Muslim Imam Muhammad Musri leader of Florida's extensive Muslim community.

We understand the idiotic pastor was persuaded by a call from The Pentagon to call off his childish behaviour. Presumably Imam Musri was despatched to symbolise some unity for the huge American Muslim population and to show Terry Jones was to be believed - contrary to some opinions there is no connection between Terry Jones of nut job Florida and Monty Python - The Terry Jones in Monty Python was both intelligent and funny

Should this ever be set to music may I suggest Carmina Beuria (sp?) or the sound track from The Omen the only other stirring sound track that evokes thoughts of the seriously mad would be Ode To Joy!!!

Regards,
Greg_L-W.

[Kiwi 1691]

Well you guys talk about burning Qur'ans and end up in a Xenophobic loop, grow up and stop bitching.

The reason why General Patraeus and Obama are so worried about this is simple. The USA is fighting Al-Qaeda, we all acknowledge this. For the USA to be successful against Al-Qaeda they need the people of the nations where Al-Qaeda is present to support the US forces not Al-Qaeda. Without the support of the general population you are screwed.

Al-Qaeda, knows this just as well as the US govt/military. They use the actions of the American populace and the US military to try to convince the populace the America is at War with Islam, when it is actually at war with AlQuieda. They have used the events from Abu Grabe to try to turn the people against the USA, and they would happily use the images of burning Qurans to try and create hatred towards Americans. That is why people are saying it could cause more soldiers to be killed.

I also want to point out that most people that attack Islam are hugely ignorant of Islam. Some of the Islamic Prophets include Jesus, Abraham, John the baptist, Noah, Adam etc. When Christians liable Islam as a religion of hate they are also labeling Christianity as a religion of hatred. I wonder what that nut job evangelical priest would think if he realized that by proposing the burning of the Koran he (a Christian priest) was wanting to burn the words of Jesus. Can I also point out that it is my understanding that this guy also attacks Jews

[soloman]

I also want to point out that most people that attack Islam are hugely ignorant of Islam. Some of the Islamic Prophets include Jesus, Abraham, John the baptist, Noah, Adam etc. When Christians liable Islam as a religion of hate they are also labeling Christianity as a religion of hatred. I wonder what that nut job evangelical priest would think if he realized that by proposing the burning of the Koran he (a Christian priest) was wanting to burn the words of Jesus. Can I also point out that it is my understanding that this guy also attacks Jews
[/SIZE][/FONT]

Up until now it has usually been alleged that it was only the Islamists that were intolerant ......................... >

[ryoden]

I also want to point out that most people that attack Islam are hugely ignorant of Islam. Some of the Islamic Prophets include Jesus, Abraham, John the baptist, Noah, Adam etc. When Christians liable Islam as a religion of hate they are also labeling Christianity as a religion of hatred. I wonder what that nut job evangelical priest would think if he realized that by proposing the burning of the Koran he (a Christian priest) was wanting to burn the words of Jesus. Can I also point out that it is my understanding that this guy also attacks Jews[/SIZE][/FONT]

No arguements from me, as far as I am concerned most major religions (if not all) are intolerant in one manner or another.

That reminds me of the two wars my country got dragged into by the pro UK lobby; WWI and WWII. The second war could be argued as being illegal because we had laws in place to prevent interventionism in Europe which Roosevelt ignored. Nobody can ever explain to me why we sent troops to Europe when the people attacked us in 1941 were Japanese. We lost about 500,000 men fighting your European wars for you and you were damn glad we were there. In fact your Prime Minister is reported to have danced a jig when he heard that 2,000 Americans had been killed at Pearl Harbor because he figured a savior was coming to his rescue.

As far as I am aware in the most basic terms the US sent troops into Europe because Germany (an ally of Japan) declared war on the US, thus they had no choice.

SNIP On December 7, Japan suddenly pushed the United States into the struggle by attacking the American naval base at Pearl Harbor, Hawaii. Four days later Hitler declared war on the United States. SNIP

The above text has been converted from "A Brief History of the U.S. Army in World War II" published by the U.S. Army Center for Military History.

[suffolklass]

Getting back to the original topic, I guess you will all be pleased to hear (or not, as the case may be) that the pastor in question has decided not to go ahead with his plan to burn this Islamic holy book. I wonder how many more plans like this are afoot?

[DC]

If anything I think that this exercise has shown how backwards and self obsessed the majority of the Islamic world is.

[Midas]

If anything I think that this exercise has shown how backwards and self obsessed the majority of the Islamic world is.

I wouldn't say the majority by a long way, but one could say exactly the same about many Christian fundamentalists, especially those in the USA like the idiot who first publicised this thankfully now-cancelled stunt!

[DC]

I wouldn't say the majority by a long way, but one could say exactly the same about many Christian fundamentalists, especially those in the USA like the idiot who first publicised this thankfully now-cancelled stunt!

There were massive crowds gathered against this all around the world thousands upon thousands, and they're just the ones on TV. They burn Western flags, and chant 'death to Christians', and somehow they see that as acceptable, but the burning of the Koran as not. You are right that one could say the same about Christian fundamentalists, but those are in the extreme minority (for now at least).

[DaveUK]

The reason why General Patraeus and Obama are so worried about this is simple. The USA is fighting Al-Qaeda, we all acknowledge this. For the USA to be successful against Al-Qaeda they need the people of the nations where Al-Qaeda is present to support the US forces not Al-Qaeda. Without the support of the general population you are screwed.

In that case, perhaps it was poor judgment for Obama to continue his criminal drone bombardment of Pakstan yesterday morning, when Pakistan is in the grip of one of it's worst ever humanitarian crisis.

Al-Qaeda, knows this just as well as the US govt/military. They use the actions of the American populace and the US military to try to convince the populace the America is at War with Islam, when it is actually at war with [FONT=Times New Roman][SIZE=3]AlQuieda. They have used the events from Abu Grabe to try to turn the people against the USA, and they would happily use the images of burning Qurans to try and create hatred towards Americans. That is why people are saying it could cause more soldiers to be killed.

I would think the death of tens of thousands of Afghan civilians, 100s of thousands wounded, massive increases in birth dffects due to depleted uranium, mass displacement and refuges, would be more than enough to galvanise support for the Taliban and Al Qaeda, without some nut job from Florida burning books.

I also want to point out that most people that attack Islam are hugely ignorant of Islam. Some of the Islamic Prophets include Jesus, Abraham, John the baptist, Noah, Adam etc. When Christians liable Islam as a religion of hate they are also labeling Christianity as a religion of hatred. I wonder what that nut job evangelical priest would think if he realized that by proposing the burning of the Koran he (a Christian priest) was wanting to burn the words of Jesus. Can I also point out that it is my understanding that this guy also attacks Jews

Christianity in it's purest biblical form is a religion of hate, masoginy, racism, elitism, retardation of education and progress. Adam, Noah and Abraham are not considered prophets by any of the three monotheistic religions, they are "patriarchs". There are no words of Jesus in the Quran, just a brief re-telling of the nativity story and references to the prophecies concerning him.

[Kiwi 1691]

There were massive crowds gathered against this all around the world thousands upon thousands, and they're just the ones on TV. They burn Western flags, and chant 'death to Christians', and somehow they see that as acceptable, but the burning of the Koran as not. You are right that one could say the same about Christian fundamentalists, but those are in the extreme minority (for now at least).

There are over a billion Muslims and you are making a judgment about the majority of them based on a couple of protests, that is as stupid as judging all Christians based on the actions of that priest.

Every Muslim I talked to on this, had no issue with him wanting to burn the Koran, citing his right to free speech/expression. Though I am sure you would state that they are not representative of Muslims because you saw a few protests on TV.

[DC]

There are over a billion Muslims and you are making a judgment about the majority of them based on a couple of protests, that is as stupid as judging all Christians based on the actions of that priest.

Every Muslim I talked to on this, had no issue with him wanting to burn the Koran, citing his right to free speech/expression. Though I am sure you would state that they are not representative of Muslims because you saw a few protests on TV.

You talked to a few Westernised Muslims and you think they are representative of Islam? We had no more than 50 wackos threatening to burn the Koran, yet they managed to field thousands to attend rallies to burn the American flag and effigies of Western leaders. What's more these rallies are attended and even organised by religious and political leaders as soon as somebody dared to threaten the Koran. The Malaysian PM and the head of the Ground Zero Mosque project gave the impression that the burning of the Koran would somehow set off a new wave of terrorism and would be a huge blow to peace efforts throughout the Middle East, so either they were being overly dramatic on the issue, which still makes them self righteous, or that's what would have happened, making a huge part of Islam appear as self righteous. So let's ask the question, how self righteous do you have to be that you think it's ok to burn Western images on a regular basis, but as soon as an extreme fringe wants to burn your icons, suddenly they've gone too far?

[DaveUK]

You talked to a few Westernised Muslims and you think they are representative of Islam? We had no more than 50 wackos threatening to burn the Koran, yet they managed to field thousands to attend rallies to burn the American flag and effigies of Western leaders. What's more these rallies are attended and even organised by religious and political leaders as soon as somebody dared to threaten the Koran. The Malaysian PM and the head of the Ground Zero Mosque project gave the impression that the burning of the Koran would somehow set off a new wave of terrorism and would be a huge blow to peace efforts throughout the Middle East, so either they were being overly dramatic on the issue, which still makes them self righteous, or that's what would have happened, making a huge part of Islam appear as self righteous. So let's ask the question, how self righteous do you have to be that you think it's ok to burn Western images on a regular basis, but as soon as an extreme fringe wants to burn your icons, suddenly they've gone too far?

For me it's the whole issue of book burning, I couldn't care less about religion. The Burning of books, any books, is far more serious than burning bits of cloth flags or effegies.
And you talk about measured response.......
Afghanistans Taliban refused to allow US owned pipe lines through its teritory, and refused to discuss power sharing with the NA. Iraq had a crazy leader that made some threats he had no hope of ever carrying out, and threatened to hijack the worlds oil economy...........we practically destroyed both of those countries, left 150,000 dead, 1.6 million injured (and thats the ones we bothered to count), destroyed their already fragile economies, displaced 6 million and made them refugees, subverted their political institutions, stole their assets.........
Who are we in the west to lecture about mesured response?

[DC]

For me it's the whole issue of book burning, I couldn't care less about religion. The Burning of books, any books, is far more serious than burning bits of cloth flags or effegies.
And you talk about measured response.......
Afghanistans Taliban refused to allow US owned pipe lines through its teritory, and refused to discuss power sharing with the NA. Iraq had a crazy leader that made some threats he had no hope of ever carrying out, and threatened to hijack the worlds oil economy...........we practically destroyed both of those countries, left 150,000 dead, 1.6 million injured (and thats the ones we bothered to count), destroyed their already fragile economies, displaced 6 million and made them refugees, subverted their political institutions, stole their assets.........
Who are we in the west to lecture about mesured response?

You can't just cite the wars as an example of 'Western [insert criticism here]', they were far more complex than that to be just thrown around arbitrarily. The fact is our leaders were condemning the hell out of the Koran burning, carried out by an extreme fringe. Yet the burning of flags and effigies draws at best no comment from Islamic leaders and at worst open support, and such demonstrations are far from just the extreme fringe (because the extreme fringe is usually plotting terror attacks or issuing jihads). I also don't see how the burning of what is essentially a book of stories is far worse than the burning of flags, real symbols of nations and their peoples, or the burning of effigies, which I would compare to a death threat. A large proportion of the Islamic world appeared to act like a child throwing a tantrum, and this was further ingrained by the UN and media rushing to show how outrageous it was. Our symbols are burnt by them with frightening regularity, while Christians and Jews are under threat of violence and persecution in many Muslim countries, yet it is a tiny extreme congregation that draws the ire of the world simply because Islam threw a tantrum. If this had been Bibles or Torahs being burnt by some congregation in Pakistan, hell even if it was a major event attended by thousands, it would have passed without comment.

[Kiwi 1691]

For me it's the whole issue of book burning, I couldn't care less about religion. The Burning of books, any books, is far more serious than burning bits of cloth flags or effegies.

Yea, the act of burning books is terrible, even if they are books full of religious crap.