It is quite a good drawing..

Originally Posted by Liberal Authoritarian

It is quite a good drawing..

reflecting the horrible impact of this war on the psychology of children.

Originally Posted by proudArab

reflecting the horrible impact of this war on the psychology of children.

Not necessarily true.

Though I will not disagree, war can have a horrible impact on children physically and psychologically, it is possible this drawing is not in response to the war.

Originally Posted by Liberal Authoritarian

Not necessarily true.

Though I will not disagree, war can have a horrible impact on children physically and psychologically, it is possible this drawing is not in response to the war.

can you elaborate on that, I want to see if I got your point ?

Originally Posted by proudArab

can you elaborate on that, I want to see if I got your point ?

Children tend to draw items which they admire or like. On many occasions, children will also draw what they see or feel.

This picture may be referrence towards the war in Lebanon. The reason why I doubt it is a referrence to war is because of how it is drawn.

It has been drawn carefully and neatly, when children draw they do not draw carefully or neatly. During times of duress, stress and painful feelings, children are more likely to "scribble" their drawings in an attempt to express themselves.

I personally believe this image was not drawn by a children but the intend is to that the image is perceived and received as such.

Originally Posted by Liberal Authoritarian

Children tend to draw items which they admire or like. On many occasions, children will also draw what they see or feel.

This picture may be referrence towards the war in Lebanon. The reason why I doubt it is a referrence to war is because of how it is drawn.

It has been drawn carefully and neatly, when children draw they do not draw carefully or neatly. During times of duress, stress and painful feelings, children are more likely to "scribble" their drawings in an attempt to express themselves.

I personally believe this image was not drawn by a children but the intend is to that the image is perceived and received as such.

I thought exactly the same regarding this not being drawn by a child, but this was one of the paintings that was part of children art gallery so was this one :



you may be right, after all this is art and everyone express himself in a different way and everyone of us has different views while doing the analysis.

I had the chance to visit one of the NGO's, association pour la protection de l'enfant de la guerre, that is involved in caring about children who went through war and the workers there explained how they ask children to draw and I saw some of the paintings and some them were similar to these two and some of them were exactly like you described.

I'd say that children who were suddenly plunged into a conflict were far more likely to be affected by it than children who had grown up in a country where there was a long history of conflict. In the latter situation it would simply be just a part of life and growing up, leaving the majority fairly unscathed by it all.

Having said that there might well be hidden psychological implications which don't emerge until much later in life, but I've no idea whether there have been any definitive studies into this or not.

Originally Posted by Midas

I'd say that children who were suddenly plunged into a conflict were far more likely to be affected by it than children who had grown up in a country where there was a long history of conflict. In the latter situation it would simply be just a part of life and growing up, leaving the majority fairly unscathed by it all..

you're making Lebanon sound as if children watch people being murdered everyday of corse Lebanese children grow in different situations than other children in even other Arab countries, except for Palestine, but that doesn't mean that they are always witnessing conflicts, I grew up in Lebanon and when I was a child I went through the war in 1996 and I saw, on tv, people being murdered yet I turned to be fine I think!

Originally Posted by Midas

Having said that there might well be hidden psychological implications which don't emerge until much later in life, but I've no idea whether there have been any definitive studies into this or not.

I think that if the parents didn't deal with this carefully this might lead to complications later on in life, like being aggressive for example

Originally Posted by proudArab

you're making Lebanon sound as if children watch people being murdered everyday off coarse Lebanese children grow in different situations than other children in even other Arab countries, except for Palestine, but that doesn't mean that they are always witnessing conflicts, I grew up in Lebanon and when I was a child I went through the war in 1996 and I saw, on tv, people being murdered yet I turned to be fine I think!

Oops, I didn't mean to give that impression, I was being very general, not specific as far as the Lebanon was concerned. Did you turn out OK? Hmm, let me think about that one......

I think that if the parents didn't deal with this carefully this might lead to complications later on in life, like being aggressive for example

You're probably quite right. It would be interesting to find out if there have been any such studies carried out.

Originally Posted by Midas

Oops, I didn't mean to give that impression, I was being very general, not specific as far as the Lebanon was concerned. Did you turn out OK? Hmm, let me think about that one...... .

mmmmmm are you going to bare the consequences of disturbing a possible psych?

Originally Posted by Midas

You're probably quite right. It would be interesting to find out if there have been any such studies carried out.

do you remember the rule about the Lebanese government not paying a Lira for expensive stuff? the rule goes here too

Originally Posted by Midas

It would be interesting to find out if there have been any such studies carried out.

this might not be exactly a study but atleast it's an example of the psychological effects of these wars on children:

Hatem Shurrab, an aid worker with Islamic Relief based in Gaza, discusses the psychological effects of recent events that he has witnessed in children

Today I visited Al-Faluja school which is sheltering some of the estimated 100,000 people who have been forced from their homes since the fighting started. The conditions in temporary shelters such as this are very difficult. There is little food and water, and people often have no way to keep warm during the cold winter nights.
This school came under attack during the conflict, and the effects of this are still being felt. At the school I met 11-year-old Yasmin. As I was talking to her she hit another child and started a fight with a boy the same age as she was. I was shocked and saddened to see such young children behaving like this. When I spoke to her father he explained that three weeks ago she was calm and innocent, but is now aggressive and angry.
Yasmin is not the only child to be acting like this. Momen, the three-year-old son of one of my colleagues has also started to act in violent ways. For three weeks the family would hear explosions day and night and now Momen’s personality has completely changed. He has destroyed his toys, constantly shouts and screams, and refuses to leave his mother’s side. May be this is not surprising; we have all suffered so much and even as an adult I often found it hard to cope with the strain of constant violence. I cannot imagine the confusion and fear felt by a young child.
Psychological problems such as depression and aggression are common in children who have lived through conflict. This is not a new phenomenon in Gaza as many children have lived through other periods of violence, but this latest crisis will have added to the mental health problems faced by Gaza’s children. However, families in Gaza are already struggling with the basics of life; getting enough water, food, fuel and shelter. Hidden psychological problems are not something they are able to deal with.

The pychological effects on children in Gaza | The Lancet Global Health Network

Originally Posted by Midas

It would be interesting to find out if there have been any such studies carried out.

There have been many, some of the first studies in the newly popular field of psychology after the second world war were conducted on child survivors.
I don't think it takes a genius to conclude that what a person experiences at a young age will have a psychological effect in adulthood. I doubt that Uday and Qusay Hussein would have been quite as psychotic if their Father hadn't forced them at six to watch the torture and ultimate murder of dissidents in order to "toughen them up".
It's emotive because it was commisioned by the Red Cross but the following is a non-accademic study.
Children and war.

Originally Posted by proudArab

this might not be exactly a study but atleast it's an example of the psychological effects of these wars on children:

Study or not, the results and long term implications are quite disturbing, all the more so because many of these children, not just from Gaza but those growing up in similar situations from around the world, will go on to become the next generation of people to perpetuate violence for what are largely historical, not logical, reasons.

Originally Posted by Midas

Study or not, the results and long term implications are quite disturbing, all the more so because many of these children, not just from Gaza but those growing up in similar situations from around the world, will go on to become the next generation of people to perpetuate violence for what are largely historical, not logical, reasons.

UNLESS parents and others like the aid workers for example knew how to deal with this issue, but this will not be an easy task in places like Gaza because a ceasefire doesn't mean that these children will not go through this again which is what you pointed out few posts earlier

Originally Posted by proudArab

UNLESS parents and others like the aid workers for example knew how to deal with this issue, but this will not be an easy task in places like Gaza because a ceasefire doesn't mean that these children will not go through this again which is what you pointed out few posts earlier

'Israel' killed 1050 children in the eight years before the latest Gaza pogrom, in which it killed some 400. I have children's pictures from World War 2 which are all about war, and I think most of the games had the same topic; that is what play and art are for - dealing in fantasy with perceived threat, so that you can deal with it somehow in reality later. Killer regimes like the nazis and the zionists inevitably lay up generations of killing - the brave amongst the oppressed are killed, the less brave make up stories about their courage, and children are naturally obsessed, because surviving/destroying oppression is what they are going to have to do. Take the time between the last imperialist viciousness in Ireland and the last lot of reprisals. I reckon the zionist murders have been so immensely worse we'll need to multiply by ten, even if we got some kind of peace now.

Israel allegedly killed that many.
When reading the news sites they state this number cannot be verified.

Originally Posted by Liberal Authoritarian

Israel allegedly killed that many.
When reading the news sites they state this number cannot be verified.

Oh - In that case I expect it is at least double that, just as when they state they are being attacked it means they are planning a pogrom with plenty of merry baby-killing for the storm-troopers. They are particularly good at shooting little girls carrying white flags - those terrify the lads in jackboots, poor shrinking nazi violets as they are. What else could they possibly do but kill those terrors, particularly if there isn't a British person in the way to kill first?

It means it is probably below the amount given

Originally Posted by Liberal Authoritarian

It means it is probably below the amount given

Or it might be much more than the "amount" given.

But even if none died, do you have any idea how scary the sound of bombs can be? so imagine being hungry, in darkness, and you are hearing this sound not once not twice, but for days, this is what these children went through, add to that watching people being murdered and thinking that they will be next, and some of these children lost members of their families, many of them are becoming aggressive after the attack, because they went and still going through too much for a child to take!

Originally Posted by Liberal Authoritarian

Israel allegedly killed that many.
When reading the news sites they state this number cannot be verified.

Oh give it up- face it- Israel made a brutal attack as revenge/ prevention because of some rockets coming over.
It was disproportional, and they killed a lot of civilians- lots more than Hamas.
Of course, they will get away with it.Big countries, as we know, can do what they want. USA, Britain and Israel can do as they please.

Originally Posted by Citizen Smith

Oh give it up- face it- Israel made a brutal attack as revenge/ prevention because of some rockets coming over.
It was disproportional, and they killed a lot of civilians- lots more than Hamas.
Of course, they will get away with it.Big countries, as we know, can do what they want. USA, Britain and Israel can do as they please.

So what do you propose?

That Israel does nothing and let Hamas bomb them?

I am not saying Israel has no blame, I am trying to make people understand, what we know is not a full story. We know articles of a story that they want us to see.

I love it how you "socialist" peoples always mention disproportional...
War is disproportional. In world war 2 we didn't stop and say, "wait we cant do this because it is disproportional", "damn, you are right. Lets just let Germany take over Europe".

During times of war you cannot make things proportional especially when all the facts are not known.

As you say, just face it, you cannot use the argument of disproportion, Its a load of crap.

more than 1000 Palestinian were murdered in less than a month in which the majority are women and children : fact
more than 4000 Palestinian were injured: fact
Gaza is going through a humanitarian crisis, in which those who didn't die are starving to death or being infected with diseases: fact
No evidence of any Hamas soldiers being among civilians in homes or hospitals or Mosques .... : fact
the occupation forces are bastards: fact
If you heard the news you would recognize that these are facts.
If you read about this you will see that these are facts.
some might try to hide the truth by uploading articles based on anonymous witnesses, but more than a million Palestinian are going through a crisis in Gaza is a fact that no one can hide.
and I'm really tired from the " hamas is bombing civilians" thing, because Zionists have shelters to hide in, Palestinians don't, Zionists have F16 to murder hundreds of Arab, hamas barely have some rockets that are more similar to fireworks.
If you don't trust the media LA then I'll repeat my suggestion of you visiting Gaza, maybe you will get the "full story"
and before any one asking the question, NO I dont have any empathy with any zionist and I will NEVER have any.

Originally Posted by proudArab

more than 1000 Palestinian were murdered in less than a month in which the majority are women and children : fact
more than 4000 Palestinian were injured: fact
Gaza is going through a humanitarian crisis, in which those who didn't die are starving to death or being infected with diseases: fact
No evidence of any Hamas soldiers being among civilians in homes or hospitals or Mosques .... : fact
the occupation forces are bastards: fact
If you heard the news you would recognize that these are facts.
If you read about this you will see that these are facts.
some might try to hide the truth by uploading articles based on anonymous witnesses, but more than a million Palestinian are going through a crisis in Gaza is a fact that no one can hide.
and I'm really tired from the " hamas is bombing civilians" thing, because Zionists have shelters to hide in, Palestinians don't, Zionists have F16 to murder hundreds of Arab, hamas barely have some rockets that are more similar to fireworks.
If you don't trust the media LA then I'll repeat my suggestion of you visiting Gaza, maybe you will get the "full story"
and before any one asking the question, NO I dont have any empathy with any zionist and I will NEVER have any.

Really?
So when you read the BBC website and it says 1000 or so people have currently died, why does it always say "This number cannot be verified".

The BBC cannot prove this many died. News sources, such as ITV, BBC etc have no idea how many people died. NO one does.
FACT

If I visit Gaza one of three things will happen.

1. I will get blown up
2. I will get blown up and discover its true
3. I will get blown up and discover I am right

You are calling the Israeli forces bastards. They are doing there job, you have no right to criticise someone for following orders. Especially when it is from Palestine, Gaza and other Muslim countries, whose people follow orders and blow themselves up to try and kill innocent people in the west.

the number of people murdered might be even much more than 1000 according to your argument.

don't you want the full story? according to you arent the Palestinians faking the whole crisis? so according to you, when you go there you will have fun, btw Palestinians don't blow foreigners, occupation forces did that before and might do that again with the UN workers and journalists so I can understand your fear.
they have no right to murder innocent people, they are murdering innocent people, so they are more than bastards, if they didn't steal the Palestinian land they wouldnt be bombed by hamas in the first place now would they.
according to your argument when you say the occupation forces is murdering innocent people because Palestinians voted hamas, so people want to blow Britian and US, since you voted Bush and Blair and those two are criminals who murdered innocent people in Iraq and they supported the murder of innocent people in other Arab countries. what am I talking about, no no British and American can't garantee the hidden agenda but the Arab can give me a break LA.

Originally Posted by proudArab

the number of people murdered might be even much more than 1000 according to your argument.

It may be a couple of people it may be 5000 people. My point is, we dont know.

don't you want the full story? according to you arent the Palestinians faking the whole crisis? so according to you, when you go there you will have fun, btw Palestinians don't blow foreigners, occupation forces did that before and might do that again with the UN workers and journalists so I can understand your fear.

Where did you get that from? Why are you confusing me for some moron who believes this crisis is fake?

Of course I don't bloody think they are faking it. It is quite hard to fake having a leg fly off, or dying... I have seen some talented actors in my time, but none that can die then come back to life.

they have no right to murder innocent people, they are murdering innocent people, so they are more than bastards, if they didn't steal the Palestinian land they wouldnt be bombed by hamas in the first place now would they.

If they didnt steal Palestinian land...
Okay you want to play that game.

If the bloody Arabs didn't steal Israelite land in the first place, we wouldn't have this problem would we.

so people want to blow Britian and US, since you voted Bush and Blair and those two are criminals who murdered innocent people in Iraq and they supported the murder of innocent people in other Arab countries. what am I talking about, no no British and American can't garantee the hidden agenda but the Arab can give me a break LA

The reason Britain and America went to war with Iraq and the middle east is because of the terror attacks. The terror acts were not a result of our invasion. The invasion was a result of terror attacks.

Secondly, I did not vote Blair, neither would I ever do so. My family have always been anti-New Labour and Anti-B'liar.

We did not support the murder of innocent people in Arab countries. If you hadn't noticed there were millions of people protesting against it. Most of the MP's we have voted against it. This was B'liars and Bushes decision, no one else.

Arab's cannot deny the hidden agenda... I am sure terror attacts aren't spur of the moment.

I have just realized that we both went off topic since the point was to see the effects of war on children through art.

i posted this before seeing your other post, so I'll add this then we can maybe continue the discussion of the following through another thread
the attack on Gaza wasn't the first attack against the Arab, the recent history is filled with similar attacks even before 11/september.
not all palestinians voted hamas either but all palestinians in Gaza are suffering.

Originally Posted by Liberal Authoritarian

If the bloody Arabs didn't steal Israelite land in the first place, we wouldn't have this problem would we.

Just for information LA, it was Judah that first conquered the original Israel in around 580 BCE, followed by Alexander the Great in around 330 BCE, then by the Romans in 63 BCE, to be followed in turn by the Byzantine Empire in 313 CE and the Persians in 614 CE. Your 'bloody Arabs', a term I hope you'll apologise for using, didn't arrive on the scene until 636 CE.

Originally Posted by Midas

Just for information LA, it was Judah that first conquered the original Israel in around 580 BCE, followed by Alexander the Great in around 330 BCE, then by the Romans in 63 BCE, to be followed in turn by the Byzantine Empire in 313 CE and the Persians in 614 CE. Your 'bloody Arabs', a term I hope you'll apologise for using, didn't arrive on the scene until 636 CE.

BCE? CE??

Some of the land was still owned by Israelites when the Arabs came. I did word it wrong, but my point was that Israel had the first claim to the land.

Originally Posted by Liberal Authoritarian

So what do you propose?

That Israel does nothing and let Hamas bomb them?
.

Yes. They are insisting on illegally occupying someone else's country and illegally preventing its people returning home, deliberately murdering children, political leaders and resisters, torturing anyone who opposes them, stealing more and more land, trying to starve the people they have driven into Bantustans, invading neighbouring countries, organising pogroms, and much, much more. These very minor gestures by the Resistance are the very least they should expect. What disgusting vomit it is when, for all our experience in the War, British people back these nazis and their scummy racism. The French Resistance shot such people in '44/5.

[quote=kynaston;62316]Yes.
[/quite]

Sorry, but that is just a load of crap. Even under international law, a country has the right to defend itself. If Israel is being bombed with rockets by Gaza, Israel has a fundamental right to defend itself.

I am sure many will agree, the debate is not over Israel fighting back, but how they did it.

deliberately murdering children and resisters, torturing anyone who opposes them,

Where is your proof?

Defense doesn't usually involve obliterating streets and streets of civilians- thats usually seen as a war crime.

Originally Posted by Citizen Smith

Defense doesn't usually involve obliterating streets and streets of civilians- thats usually seen as a war crime.

What part of: The debate is how they wen't about it, did you not understand?

I am saying Israel has a right to defend itself. The controversy comes from the method they chose.

Originally Posted by Liberal Authoritarian

Where is your proof?

for a person who spends so much time on research and watching BBC you are really not paying attention to all the evidences of murdering children and all other crimes that kynaston talked about, I can't upload pictures here on the forum but I can offer you plenty of links that include the pictures of dead children and other civilians.

Originally Posted by proudArab

for a person who spends so much time on research and watching BBC you are really not paying attention to all the evidences of murdering children and all other crimes that kynaston talked about, I can't upload pictures here on the forum but I can offer you plenty of links that include the pictures of dead children and other civilians.

deliberately murdering children

Children have been killed, I am not questioning that. I am questioning the word deliberately.


torturing anyone who opposes them

I watch the BBC religiously, I read new source websites religiously and read many newspapers from the Times to the Guardian. None have mentioned torture. If I have missed a story and they have mentioned torture please link it.

Originally Posted by Liberal Authoritarian

deliberately murdering children

Children have been killed, I am not questioning that. I am questioning the word deliberately.


torturing anyone who opposes them

I watch the BBC religiously, I read new source websites religiously and read many newspapers from the Times to the Guardian. None have mentioned torture. If I have missed a story and they have mentioned torture please link it.

even idiots know that homes contain children, bombing it means that they deliberately murdered children.
the UN informed everyone that schools contain families, bombing it means that they deliberately murdered families.
and so on
and no one ever detected the presence of any hamas in any of the homes and shops and schools and universities ..... that were bombed, which means that they deliberately murdered civilians.
Even farms, were bombed, with no evidence of hamas there, animals died, which means that they deliberately want to starve Palestinians to death

Originally Posted by proudArab

even idiots know that homes contain children, bombing it means that they deliberately murdered children.
the UN informed everyone that schools contain families, bombing it ment that they delibrately murdered families.
and so on
and no one ever detected the presence of any hamas in any of the homes and shops and schools and universities ..... that were bombed, which means that they deliberately murdered civilians.
Even farms, were bombed, with no evidence of hamas there, animals died, which means that they deliberately want to starve palestinians to death

I am sorry, but I disagree. Just because certain areas are bombed doesn't mean they are deliberately trying to wipe out the citizens.
Its the same as you see a kid with red paint over his hands. You then have a look at your car and it has been damaged and has red paint over it.

You believe the kid did it... However, there is a possibly the kid had nothing to do with it and was just at the wrong place at the wrong time.

Originally Posted by Liberal Authoritarian

I am sorry, but I disagree. Just because certain areas are bombed doesn't mean they are deliberately trying to wipe out the citizens.
Its the same as you see a kid with red paint over his hands. You then have a look at your car and it has been damaged and has red paint over it.

You believe the kid did it... However, there is a possibly the kid had nothing to do with it and was just at the wrong place at the wrong time.

did you see the images of Gaza before and after the attack? they didn't just bomb certain areas, they destroyed everything in Gaza, and when you bomb the strip in such way it means that you deliberately want to do the harm.

Originally Posted by proudArab

did you see the images of Gaza before and after the attack? they didn't just bomb certain areas, they destroyed everything in Gaza, and when you bomb the strip in such way it means that you deliberately want to do the harm.

To do harm is the objective of war.

Israel wants Hamas gone, and has attacked Hamas whenever it can. I do not believe it is deliterately trying to kill children.

They knew that they would kill innocents. they just didn't care, because they knew that even with a public outcry, they would get away with it, and force Hamas to stop their (admittedly small) attacks.