View Poll Results: Should Islamic Sharia law be banned in Britain?

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Top ten reasons why sharia is bad for all societies (Part 2)

This is a discussion on Top ten reasons why sharia is bad for all societies (Part 2) within the Religion, Faith and Spirituality forums, part of the Religion, Relations, Disputes and Conflicts Forum category; (...continued from Part 1) 6 . Islam commands that highway robbers should be crucified or mutilated. In September 2003, Scotsman ...

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    Top ten reasons why sharia is bad for all societies (Part 2)

    (...continued from Part 1)

    6. Islam commands that highway robbers should be crucified or mutilated.

    In September 2003, Scotsman Sandy Mitchell faced crucifixion in Saudi Arabia. He was beaten and tortured until he confessed to a crime he did not commit: a bomb plot masterminded by the British embassy. The article says of this punishment that it is the worst kind of execution and that two have been carried out in the last twenty years.

    In 2002 Amnesty International reports that even though Saudi Arabia ratified the Convention against Torture and other Cruel, Inhuman or Degrading Treatment or Punishment (Convention against Torture)

    in October 1997, amputation is prescribed under both Hudud (punishments) and Qisas (law of retaliation). AI has recorded thirty—three amputations and nine cross—amputations where the alternate hand or foot is mutilated.

    The Quran says:

    5:33 Those who wage war against God and His Messenger and strive to spread corruption in the land should be punished by death, crucifixion, the amputation of an alternate hand and foot or banishment from the land: a disgrace for them in this world, and then a terrible punishment in the Hereafter, 34 unless they repent before you overpower them: in that case bear in mind that God is forgiving and merciful. (Haleem)

    It may be difficult to accept, but the hadith says that Muhammad tortured these next people before he executed them. This scenario provides the historical context of Sura 5:33—34. The explanations in parentheses have been added by the translator:

    Narrated Anas: Some people . . . came to the Prophet and embraced Islam . . .
    [T]hey turned renegades (reverted from Islam) and killed the shepherd of the camels and took the camels away . . . The Prophet ordered that their hands and legs should be cut off and their eyes should be branded with heated pieces of iron, and that their cut hands and legs should not be cauterized, till they died. (Bukhari, Punishments, no. 6802)
    The next hadith reports that the renegades died from bleeding to death because Muhammad refused to cauterize their amputated limbs. Then the hadith after that one reports that the renegades were not given water, so they died of thirst. They probably died of both causes: thirst and loss of blood.

    See this short article for details on another example of Muhammad's use of torture.

    The prophet Muhammad and his use of torture and prisoner abuse

    Islamic law says that these punishments are imposed for highway robbery, and in some cases crucifixion does not need a murder before it is imposed.
    For more information on Muhammad's brutality and the barbaric laws that flow out of it, go to the back—up article.

    American Thinker: Crucifixion and mutilation in early Islam

    5. Islam commands that homosexuals must be executed.
    In February 1998, the Taliban, who once ruled in Afghanistan, ordered a stone wall to be pushed over three men convicted of sodomy. Their lives were to be spared if they survived for 30 minutes and were still alive when the stones were removed.

    In its 1991 Constitution, in Articles 108—113, Iran adopted the punishment of execution for sodomy.

    In April 2005, a Kuwaiti cleric says homosexuals should be thrown off a mountain or stoned to death.

    On April 7, 2005, it was reported that Saudi Arabia sentenced more than 100 men to prison or flogging for 'gay conduct.'

    These homosexuals were lucky. Early Islam would have executed them, as these hadith demonstrate.

    Ibn Abbas, Muhammad's cousin and highly reliable transmitter of hadith, reports the following about early Islam and Muhammad's punishment of homosexuals: . . .

    'If you find anyone doing as Lot's people did, kill the one who does it, and the one to whom it is done' (Abu Dawud no. 4447).
    This hadith passage says that homosexuals should be burned alive or have wall pushed on them:

    Ibn Abbas and Abu Huraira reported God's messenger as saying, 'Accursed is he who does what Lot's people did.' In a version . . . on the authority of Ibn Abbas it says that Ali [Muhammad's cousin and son—in—law] had two people burned and that Abu Bakr [Muhammad's chief companion] had a wall thrown down on them. (Mishkat, vol. 1, p. 765, Prescribed Punishments)
    Though this punishment of a wall being toppled on them is extreme, the Taliban were merely following the origins of their religion.

    If the reader would like to see the confusion in the Quran on the matter of homosexuality, the severity in the hadith, and excessive rulings of classical fiqh, they should see the supporting article.

    American Thinker: Islamic law is not gay

    4. Islam orders unmarried fornicators to be whipped and adulterers to be stoned to death.

    Fornication:

    In 2001, Iranian officials sentenced three men to flogging for illicit sex.
    The Quran says:

    24:2 The fornicatress and the fornicator, flog each of them with a hundred stripes. Let not pity withhold you in their case, in a punishment prescribed by Allah, if you believe in Allah and the Last Day. And let a party of the believers witness their punishment. [This punishment is for unmarried persons guilty of the above crime (illegal sex), but if married persons commit it (illegal sex), the punishment is to stone them to death, according to Allah's law]. (Hilali and Khan).

    The additions in the brackets, though not original to the Arabic, have the support of the hadith. These command flogging only of unmarried fornicators: Bukhari, Punishments, nos. 6831 and 6833.
    The classical legal rulings follow the Quran and the hadith closely, so we do not need to analyze them here.

    According to this report, in Iran a teenage boy broke his Ramadan fast, so a judge sentenced him to be lashed with eighty—five stripes. He died from the punishment. Though his sad case does not deal with fornication, it is cited here because it shows that lashing can be fatal.

    Adultery:

    In December 2004, Amnesty International reports:

    An Iranian woman charged with adultery faces death by stoning in the next five days after her death sentence was upheld by the Supreme Court last month. Her unnamed co—defendant is at risk of imminent execution by hanging. Amnesty International members are now writing urgent appeals to the Iranian authorities, calling for the execution to be stopped.

    She is to be buried up to her chest and stoned to death.
    This gruesome hadith passage reports that a woman was buried up to her chest and stoned to death:

    And when he had given command over her and she was put in a hole up to her breast, he ordered the people to stone her. Khalid b. al—Walid came forward with a stone which he threw at her head, and when the blood spurted on his face he cursed her . . . (Muslim no. 4206)

    The Prophet prayed over her dead body and then buried her. Truthfully, though, how effective was the prayer when Muhammad and his community murdered her in cold blood? The rest of the hadith says that Muhammad told Khalid not to be too harsh, but the Prophet's words drip with irony. Perhaps Muhammad meant that Khalid should not have cursed her. However, if they really did not want to be harsh, they should have forgiven her and let her go to raise her child.

    Later Islamic legal rulings follow the Quran and the hadith closely, so we do not need to analyze them here.
    Here is the back—up article that supports this fourth reason.

    American Thinker: Flogging and stoning adulterers in the Quran

    3. Islam orders death for Muslim and possible death for non—Muslim critics of Muhammad and the Quran and even sharia itself.
    In 1989, Iran's Supreme Leader issued a fatwa (legal decree) to assassinate Salman Rushdie, a novelist, who wrote Satanic Verses, which includes questions about the angel Gabriel's role in inspiring the Quran. Now the extremists in the highest levels in Iran have recently renewed the fatwa.

    In 2005, The Muslim Council of Victoria, Australia, brought a lawsuit against two pastors for holding a conference and posting articles critiquing Islam. Three Muslims attended the conference and felt offended. The two pastors have been convicted based on Australia's vilification law. While on trial, one of them wanted to read from the Quran on domestic violence (see 9, above), but the lawyer representing the Council would not allow it. The pastors are appealing their conviction.

    In 2005, British Muslims have been campaigning to pass a religious hate speech law in England's parliament. They have succeeded. Their ability to propagandize has not been curtailed. Opponents of the law say that it stifles free speech that may criticize Muhammad, the Quran, and Islam.
    Here are the classical legal rulings.

    First, the Muslim deserves death for doing any of the following (Reliance of the Traveler pp. 597—98, o8.7):

    (1) Reviling Allah or his Messenger; (2) being sarcastic about 'Allah's name, His command, His interdiction, His promise, or His threat'; (3) denying any verse of the Quran or 'anything which by scholarly consensus belongs to it, or to add a verse that does not belong to it'; (4) holding that 'any of Allah's messengers or prophets are liars, or to deny their being sent'; (5) reviling the religion of Islam; (6) being sarcastic about any ruling of the Sacred Law; (7) denying that Allah intended 'the Prophet's message . . . to be the religion followed by the entire world.'

    It is no wonder that critical investigation of the truth claims of Islam can never prevail in Islamic lands when the sword of Muhammad hangs over the scholars' head.

    The non—Muslims living under Islamic rule are not allowed to do the following (p. 609, o11.10(1)—(5)):

    (1) Commit adultery with a Muslim woman or marry her; (2) conceal spies of hostile forces; (3) lead a Muslim away from Islam; (4) mention something impermissible about Allah, the Prophet . . . or Islam.

    According to the discretion of the caliph or his representative, the punishments for violating these rules are as follows: (1) death, (2) enslavement, (3) release without paying anything, and (4) ransoming in exchange for money. These punishments also execute free speech—even repulsive speech—and freedom of religion or conscience.

    Ultimately, censorship testifies to a lack of confidence in one's position and message. If the message of Islam were truly superior, one could trust in the power of truth. As it stands, sharia with its prescribed punishments for questioning Muhammad, the Quran, and sharia itself testifies to their weakness since sharia threatens those who dare to differ.

    How confident was Muhammad (and today's Muslims) in his message that he had to rely on violence and force to protect his message, besides reason and persuasive argumentation?

    For the supporting article that analyzes the Quran and the hadith, both of which orders death to critics, click here.

    American Thinker: Insulting Muhammad: Free speech, and death in Islam

    2. Islam orders apostates to be killed.
    In Iran an academic was condemned to death for criticizing clerical rule in Iran. The rulers assert that he was insulting Muhammad and Shi'ite laws. He was charged with apostasy.

    Apostates are those who leave Islam, like Salman Rushdie (see the linked article in no. three, above), whether they become atheists or convert to another religion. They are supposed to be killed according to the Quran, the hadith, and later legal rulings.
    See the previous point no. three for acts that entail leaving Islam according to Islamic law.

    Sayyid Maududi, a respected Islamic scholar argues that Sura 9:11—12 refers to apostates and that they should be put to death (scroll down to 'The Proof in the Quran for the Commandment to Execute Apostates').

    And the number one reason why sharia is bad for all societies . . .

    1. Islam commands offensive and aggressive and unjust jihad.
    Muhammad is foundational to Islam, and he set the genetic code for Islam, waging war. In the ten years that he lived in Medina from his Hijrah (Emigration) from Mecca in AD 622 to his death of a fever in AD 632, he either sent out or went out on seventy—four raids, expeditions, or full—scale wars. They range from small assassination hit squads to kill anyone who insulted him, to the Tabuk Crusades in late AD 630 against the Byzantine Christians. He had heard a rumor that an army was mobilizing to invade Arabia, but the rumor was false, so his 30,000 jihadists returned home, but not before imposing a jizya tax on northern Christians and Jews.
    Money flowed into the Islamic treasury. So why would Muhammad get a revelation to dry up this money flow?

    What are some of the legalized rules of jihad found in the Quran, hadith, and classical legal opinions?

    (1) Women and children are enslaved. They can either be sold, or the Muslims may 'marry' the women, since their marriages are automatically annulled upon their capture.
    (2) Jihadists may have sex with slave women. Ali, Muhammad's cousin and son—in—law, did this.
    (3) Women and children must not be killed during war, unless this happens in a nighttime raid when visibility was low.
    (4) Old men and monks could be killed.
    (5) A captured enemy of war could be killed, enslaved, ransomed for money or an exchange, freely released, or beaten. One time Muhammad even tortured a citizen of the city of Khaybar in order to extract information about where the wealth of the city was hidden.
    (6) Enemy men who converted could keep their property and small children. This law is so excessive that it amounts to forced conversion. Only the strongest of the strong could resist this coercion and remain a non—Muslim. (7) Civilian property may be confiscated.
    (8) Civilian homes may be destroyed.
    (9) Civilian fruit trees may be destroyed.
    (10) Pagan Arabs had to convert or die. This does not allow for the freedom of religion or conscience.
    (11) People of the Book (Jews and Christians) had three options (Sura 9:29): fight and die; convert and pay a forced 'charity' or zakat tax; or keep their Biblical faith and pay a jizya or poll tax. The last two options mean that money flows into the Islamic treasury, so why would Muhammad receive a revelation to dry up this money flow?

    Thus, jihad is aggressive, coercive, and excessive, and Allah never revealed to Muhammad to stop these practices.

    For the supporting article of reason no. one, please go here.

    American Thinker: Ill legal jihad in the Quran and early Islam (1)

    It also has a segment on the differences between jihad in Islam and the wars in the Old Testament. Another article on that topic can be read here.

    American Thinker: Muhammad's wars v. God's wars

    There are vast differences between Islam and Judaism on this topic.
    Therefore, Islam is violent—unjustly and aggressively.

    Conclusion

    The nightmare must end. Sharia oppresses the citizens of Islamic countries. Islam must reform, but the legal hierarchy in Islamic nations will not do this because the judges and legal scholars understand the cost: many passages in the Quran and the hadith must be rejected, and this they cannot do. After all, the Quran came down directly from Allah through Gabriel, so says traditional theology. So how can Islam reform? But reform it must. It can start by rewriting classical fiqh (interpretations of law). Again, though, that would mean leaving behind the Quran and Muhammad's example. How can the legal hierarchy in Islamic nations do this?

    In contrast, the West has undergone the Enlightenment or the Age of Reason (c. 1600—1800+), so western law has been injected with a heavy dose of reason. Also, the New Testament tempers excessive punishments. At least when Christianity reformed (c. 1400—1600), the reformers went back to the New Testament, which preaches peace and love. So religion and reason in the West permit justice to be found more readily—the Medieval Church is not foundational to Christianity; only Jesus and the New Testament are.

    Can Islamic countries benefit from an Enlightenment that may deny the Quran and the hadith? This seems impossible. Islamic law threatens Muslims with death if they criticize Muhammad and the Quran, not to mention denying them.

    Since Islamic law cannot be reformed without doing serious damage to original and authentic Islam—the one taught by Muhammad—then a second plan must be played out. Sharia must never spread around the world. At least that much is clear and achievable. The hard evidence in this article demonstrates beyond doubt that sharia does not benefit any society, for it contains too many harsh rules and punishments.

    One of the most tragic and under—reported occurrences in the West in recent years is the existence of a sharia court in Canada and now ,yes, in Britain. Five sharia courts have been set up in London, Birmingham, Bradford and Manchester and Nuneaton, Warwickshire. The government has quietly sanctioned that their rulings are enforceable with the full power of the judicial system, through the county courts or High Court. Muslims are also pushing for a sharia divorce courting in Australia as well. Having a court of arbitration if it is based on western law and legal theory is legitimate, but sharia does not hold to this standard. Whether sharia is imposed gradually or rapidly, Canada and Britain should promptly shut down any sharia court, and Australia should never allow one. Such a court should never be permitted in the US, the rest of the West, or anywhere else in the world that is battling Islam.

    It is true that the Enlightenment teaches tolerance, but it also teaches critical thinking and reasoning. Sharia cannot stand up under scrutiny. It is intolerant and excessive, and Aristotle in his Nicomachean Ethics teaches the West that excess is never just.

    Thankfully, the province of Quebec, Canada, has forbidden sharia. This is the right initiative.


    Sharia ultimately degrades society and diminishes freedom.



    Sources : Washington Post, American Thinker, rawa.org, BBC, Telegraph, The Qu'ran
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    The subject of Sharia Law came up over dinner with some friends last night, and although everyone was opposed to it in general terms, one aspect did receive a 9/3 majority vote, and that was where a victim's family can have a say into the punishment given to a criminal. For instance in Saudi Arabia it can be left up to the family of a murder victim to decide whether the murderer should be executed or not, it's not something which is written into law. It can also be up to the victim of a thief to decide how many lashes he receives as punishment. In principle I can't personally see a problem with that aspect, although to be fair it's not exclusive to Sharia Law.
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    Quote Originally Posted by Midas View Post
    The subject of Sharia Law came up over dinner with some friends last night, and although everyone was opposed to it in general terms, one aspect did receive a 9/3 majority vote, and that was where a victim's family can have a say into the punishment given to a criminal. For instance in Saudi Arabia it can be left up to the family of a murder victim to decide whether the murderer should be executed or not, it's not something which is written into law. It can also be up to the victim of a thief to decide how many lashes he receives as punishment. In principle I can't personally see a problem with that aspect, although to be fair it's not exclusive to Sharia Law.
    Another good point Midas. Nevertheleass, i believe in the EQUAL administration of justice. I think it is fair to say that it would be very difficult for a victim or a victim's family to remain emotionally uninfluenced, so as to be able to stay objective and in a position to distinguish between JUSTICE and VENGEANCE.

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    Quote Originally Posted by arisen View Post
    Another good point Midas. Nevertheleass, i believe in the EQUAL administration of justice. I think it is fair to say that it would be very difficult for a victim or a victim's family to remain emotionally uninfluenced, so as to be able to stay objective and in a position to distinguish between JUSTICE and VENGEANCE.
    True enough, however the thought that they might be given the maximum sentence allowed by law simply because of a vengeful victim or victim's family, should act as yet another deterrent to criminals.
    "High taxes don't redistribute wealth; they redistribute taxpayers" -- Arthur Laffer

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    Quote Originally Posted by Midas View Post
    For instance in Saudi Arabia it can be left up to the family of a murder victim to decide whether the murderer should be executed or not, it's not something which is written into law. It can also be up to the victim of a thief to decide how many lashes he receives as punishment. In principle I can't personally see a problem with that aspect, although to be fair it's not exclusive to Sharia Law.
    You can't see a problem with that? There is one very good reason why the victim should never be able to determine the punishment, lack of objectivity and therefore justice. If I believed that someone was responsible for the murder of a loved one then you can be sure I'd want to see them tortured and killed in the most excrutiating manner as revenge. Which is why it shouldn't be up to the victim, but an impartial judge to decide.
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    Quote Originally Posted by Opinionated View Post
    You can't see a problem with that? There is one very good reason why the victim should never be able to determine the punishment, lack of objectivity and therefore justice. If I believed that someone was responsible for the murder of a loved one then you can be sure I'd want to see them tortured and killed in the most excrutiating manner as revenge. Which is why it shouldn't be up to the victim, but an impartial judge to decide.

    Thank you...come on...common sense

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    Quote Originally Posted by Opinionated View Post
    You can't see a problem with that? There is one very good reason why the victim should never be able to determine the punishment, lack of objectivity and therefore justice. If I believed that someone was responsible for the murder of a loved one then you can be sure I'd want to see them tortured and killed in the most excrutiating manner as revenge. Which is why it shouldn't be up to the victim, but an impartial judge to decide.
    No, I can't see a problem provided the decision was only taken into account after a court had found that person guilty. I can see no reason, for certain types of crime, why the law shouldn't allow for there to be a range of sentences on offer, the victim or their family decided which is the most appropriate, taking their own feeling, vengeful or not, into account. Some will want the full force of the allowable sentence, others won't. Your remark "I'd want to see them tortured and killed in the most excruciating manner" or something very similar has been successfully used in the USA to retain several of their methods of execution; if someone has committed a horrendous crime, they should receive a horrendous punishment.
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    Quote Originally Posted by Opinionated View Post
    You can't see a problem with that? There is one very good reason why the victim should never be able to determine the punishment, lack of objectivity and therefore justice. If I believed that someone was responsible for the murder of a loved one then you can be sure I'd want to see them tortured and killed in the most excrutiating manner as revenge. Which is why it shouldn't be up to the victim, but an impartial judge to decide.
    America has capital punishment and some of the harshest criminal punishments in the world yet they have some of the highest rape, murder and general crime rates.

    Even though the BNP want to enforce it and it sounds like a good idea in theory, will it actually work? I mean, I think it was Denmark or the Netherlands actually have some of the most leniant punishments in the world yet they have very low crime rates.

    Maybe each countries punishments should coincide with its culture.
    Personally, I don't feel Shariah law has any place in the U.K.

    For reasons which they could not comprehend, and in pursuance of a decision by default, on which they were never consulted, they found themselves made strangers in their own country.

    All I know is that to see, and not to speak, would be the great betrayal. - Enoch Powell, Rivers of Blood speech, 1968.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Patriot1 View Post
    America has capital punishment and some of the harshest criminal punishments in the world yet they have some of the highest rape, murder and general crime rates.

    Even though the BNP want to enforce it and it sounds like a good idea in theory, will it actually work? I mean, I think it was Denmark or the Netherlands actually have some of the most leniant punishments in the world yet they have very low crime rates.

    Maybe each countries punishments should coincide with its culture.
    Personally, I don't feel Shariah law has any place in the U.K.
    I think you've highlighted one of the major problems in trying to compare international statistics; both the ways in which countries see crime and punishment, and the ways in which they handle it, are very culture-dependent. This really forces us to look very deeply at our own situation in isolation, but then how do you 'test' different theories on the optimum way to deal with crime and punishment?
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    Quote Originally Posted by Midas View Post
    how do you 'test' different theories on the optimum way to deal with crime and punishment?
    Good point. I'd say it is a "Trial and error" procedure based on past experience and success rates, always in accordance with the constitutution and the "spirit" of the law.
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    Its only the sharia, dont lose your head over it!!!!

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    Quote Originally Posted by pauli007001 View Post
    Its only the sharia, dont lose your head over it!!!!
    I have two comments:

    1. I have not lost my head over it... Some Muslims have but not me
    2. Its only the Nazi's don't lose your head over it

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    From the look from the first video, it was broadcast near Suadi Arabia.

    This is the country that funds a lot of muslims in the UK and also give the material to leaders to preach in the UK.

    Sharia law is already implemented in the UK.

    Some parts of sharia law is considered peadofillia in the UK.

    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=dWwNZmqN2Zc&feature=fvw

    YouTube - Child in a Forced Marriage ... only imitating the "excellent example" (33:21) Muhammad

    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=FzOVrfFtKcI&NR=1

    More reasons to scrap every aspect of sharia law.

    For reasons which they could not comprehend, and in pursuance of a decision by default, on which they were never consulted, they found themselves made strangers in their own country.

    All I know is that to see, and not to speak, would be the great betrayal. - Enoch Powell, Rivers of Blood speech, 1968.

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    Dear god, whom ever created this thread is seriously brain dead. The Koran is like the Bible, texts created by man that are based on the beliefs of the time they were written. Both the Koran and the Bible are very violent and rather disgusting. That is simply that the violence and bigotry in them is what people believed in the past.

    What next, a thread saying how terrible the laws of ancient Egypt were.
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    Quote Originally Posted by Kiwi 1691 View Post
    Dear god, whom ever created this thread is seriously brain dead. The Koran is like the Bible, texts created by man that are based on the beliefs of the time they were written. Both the Koran and the Bible are very violent and rather disgusting. That is simply that the violence and bigotry in them is what people believed in the past.

    What next, a thread saying how terrible the laws of ancient Egypt were.
    The issue is, however, many Muslims still live their lives by the Koran.
    Very few Christians live their lives by the Bible.

    Christianity has updated itself.

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    what people believed in the past

    Quote Originally Posted by Kiwi 1691 View Post
    Dear god, whom ever created this thread is seriously brain dead. The Koran is like the Bible, texts created by man that are based on the beliefs of the time they were written. Both the Koran and the Bible are very violent and rather disgusting. That is simply that the violence and bigotry in them is what people believed in the past.

    What next, a thread saying how terrible the laws of ancient Egypt were.
    If only. The point is that some people try to live their lives, and try to force others to live their lives, based on it. I've said it before but it bears repeating, any sane society would treat religious belief as a mental illness. We should be tearing down the mosques, churches and synagogues and turning them into mental hospitals.
    In a time of universal deceit, telling the truth is a revolutionary act. – George Orwell

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    Quote Originally Posted by TellMeMore View Post
    If only. The point is that some people try to live their lives, and try to force others to live their lives, based on it. I've said it before but it bears repeating, any sane society would treat religious belief as a mental illness. We should be tearing down the ... churches ... and turning them into mental hospitals.
    NO!


    Churches are not only magnificent buildings, but also a large part of our heritage.

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    A large part of our heritage

    Quote Originally Posted by Liberal Authoritarian View Post
    NO!


    Churches are not only magnificent buildings, but also a large part of our heritage.
    Like binge-drinking, unprovoked violence, racism and sexism. Sorry but all places of religious worship are monuments to stupidity (IMHO).
    In a time of universal deceit, telling the truth is a revolutionary act. – George Orwell

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    Quote Originally Posted by Liberal Authoritarian View Post
    The issue is, however, many Muslims still live their lives by the Koran.
    Very few Christians live their lives by the Bible.

    Christianity has updated itself.
    Really, have you ever seen the USA, there are many people in the south that most definitely live their lives by the teachings of the bible.
    Why can't Jesus eat M&Ms?
    Because they keep falling through the holes in his hands!


    Jesus may love you, but he won't respect you in the morning.



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    Quote Originally Posted by Kiwi 1691 View Post
    Really, have you ever seen the USA, there are many people in the south that most definitely live their lives by the teachings of the bible.

    He said 'very few'.

    Which is exactly what the people of southern USA are compared to the 1.2 billion muslims (22% world population) and a very large percentage of these are very strict with lifestyles and stick closely to the Qu'ran.

    For reasons which they could not comprehend, and in pursuance of a decision by default, on which they were never consulted, they found themselves made strangers in their own country.

    All I know is that to see, and not to speak, would be the great betrayal. - Enoch Powell, Rivers of Blood speech, 1968.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Patriot1 View Post

    He said 'very few'.

    Which is exactly what the people of southern USA are compared to the 1.2 billion muslims (22% world population) and a very large percentage of these are very strict with lifestyles and stick closely to the Qu'ran.
    What percentage exactly? oh wait you havnt got one because its utter bull****.
    So unproductive has conservatism been in producing a general conception of how a social order is maintained that its modern votaries, in trying to construct a theoretical foundation, invariably find themselves appealing almost exclusively to authors who regarded themselves as liberal. - F.A. Hayek


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    Quote Originally Posted by JacquesMagique View Post
    What percentage exactly? oh wait you havnt got one because its utter bull****.
    It depends on your definition of a strict Muslim, and this varies just as the definition of an orthodox jew or a strict Christian does; which is why there are no statistics for that.

    Islam is more of a way of life than a religion which is why many muslims learn the Qu'ran off by heart.
    Therefore they read the Qu'ran and stick close to it more than most religions do.

    For reasons which they could not comprehend, and in pursuance of a decision by default, on which they were never consulted, they found themselves made strangers in their own country.

    All I know is that to see, and not to speak, would be the great betrayal. - Enoch Powell, Rivers of Blood speech, 1968.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Patriot1 View Post
    It depends on your definition of a strict Muslim, and this varies just as the definition of an orthodox jew or a strict Christian does.
    exactly..

    Have you ever been to an Islamic country?
    So unproductive has conservatism been in producing a general conception of how a social order is maintained that its modern votaries, in trying to construct a theoretical foundation, invariably find themselves appealing almost exclusively to authors who regarded themselves as liberal. - F.A. Hayek


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    Quote Originally Posted by TellMeMore View Post
    Like binge-drinking, unprovoked violence, racism and sexism. Sorry but all places of religious worship are monuments to stupidity (IMHO).
    Sorry, but that statement just screams of ignorance.

    The level of ignorance involved to dismiss the idea of God is equal to the level of ignorance required to blindly believe in God.

    Binge drinking is not part of our heritage. It is an aspect of bad parenting.
    Racism will exist as long as humans exist as will sexism and all other forms of discrimination.

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    Quote Originally Posted by JacquesMagique View Post
    exactly..

    Have you ever been to an Islamic country?
    No, but my best friend is from Pakistan.

    For reasons which they could not comprehend, and in pursuance of a decision by default, on which they were never consulted, they found themselves made strangers in their own country.

    All I know is that to see, and not to speak, would be the great betrayal. - Enoch Powell, Rivers of Blood speech, 1968.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Patriot1 View Post
    No, but my best friend is from Pakistan.
    Does he know you are so into the BNP?
    So unproductive has conservatism been in producing a general conception of how a social order is maintained that its modern votaries, in trying to construct a theoretical foundation, invariably find themselves appealing almost exclusively to authors who regarded themselves as liberal. - F.A. Hayek


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    Quote Originally Posted by Liberal Authoritarian View Post
    Sorry, but that statement just screams of ignorance.

    The level of ignorance involved to dismiss the idea of God is equal to the level of ignorance required to blindly believe in God.

    Binge drinking is not part of our heritage. It is an aspect of bad parenting.
    Racism will exist as long as humans exist as will sexism and all other forms of discrimination.
    I agree with you, apart from the parenting point.

    There is no problem with churches because the Christian lifestyle doesnt demand much from us. Its influence on us simply gives us a few holidays and a set of commandments to try and live our lives by, making us a better person.

    Even as an atheist I'd rather we had a Christian country that had morals than an atheist state in which everything deteriated.
    LA likes this.

    For reasons which they could not comprehend, and in pursuance of a decision by default, on which they were never consulted, they found themselves made strangers in their own country.

    All I know is that to see, and not to speak, would be the great betrayal. - Enoch Powell, Rivers of Blood speech, 1968.

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    Quote Originally Posted by JacquesMagique View Post
    Does he know you are so into the BNP?
    yes he does. He disagrees with the party but mainly because he thinks they couldn't run the country.

    For reasons which they could not comprehend, and in pursuance of a decision by default, on which they were never consulted, they found themselves made strangers in their own country.

    All I know is that to see, and not to speak, would be the great betrayal. - Enoch Powell, Rivers of Blood speech, 1968.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Patriot1 View Post
    yes he does. He disagrees with the party but mainly because he thinks they couldn't run the country.
    He is your best friend even though he is passively destroying your identity and culture?
    So unproductive has conservatism been in producing a general conception of how a social order is maintained that its modern votaries, in trying to construct a theoretical foundation, invariably find themselves appealing almost exclusively to authors who regarded themselves as liberal. - F.A. Hayek


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    Quote Originally Posted by JacquesMagique View Post
    He is your best friend even though he is passively destroying your identity and culture?
    You see hes not though. He moved into a predominantly white area and hes intergrated well. He learnt English before he came over and he accepts our culture and doesn't try to change it.
    Every year I give him £20 as an Ede present and then he gives me it back at Christmas for my present.

    He doesn't want it to be called "Winter Fest" or "Winter lights" and he doesnt support Sharia law.

    For reasons which they could not comprehend, and in pursuance of a decision by default, on which they were never consulted, they found themselves made strangers in their own country.

    All I know is that to see, and not to speak, would be the great betrayal. - Enoch Powell, Rivers of Blood speech, 1968.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Patriot1 View Post


    You see hes not though. He moved into a predominantly white area and hes intergrated well. He learnt English before he came over and he accepts our culture and doesn't try to change it.
    Every year I give him £20 as an Ede present and then he gives me it back at Christmas for my present.

    He doesn't want it to be called "Winter Fest" or "Winter lights" and he doesnt support Sharia law.
    And yet he can't join the BNP.
    So unproductive has conservatism been in producing a general conception of how a social order is maintained that its modern votaries, in trying to construct a theoretical foundation, invariably find themselves appealing almost exclusively to authors who regarded themselves as liberal. - F.A. Hayek


    Economic Left/Right: 4.38
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    Quote Originally Posted by JacquesMagique View Post
    And yet he can't join the BNP.
    Within the next few months he will be able too.

    I've defended their right to remain all white, but I've always thought they should allow British immigrants in so long as they fit the criteria.

    For reasons which they could not comprehend, and in pursuance of a decision by default, on which they were never consulted, they found themselves made strangers in their own country.

    All I know is that to see, and not to speak, would be the great betrayal. - Enoch Powell, Rivers of Blood speech, 1968.

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    I accidentally voted No, meant to vote "yes" but obviously fasting and the lack of nicotine aren't helping. Moderators, please feel free to edit that and add the tenth yes.
    Not because Sharia is "bad" but because Britain is a non-muslim country, Brits welcomed Muslims into their communities and in return Muslims should abide by their rules and not try to force their way of living on a whole nation, which I'm sure the majority knows, any Muslim who's ever read the Quran knows better than to try to force his/her beliefs on people.

    [2:256] Let there be no compulsion in religion: Truth stands out clear from Error: whoever rejects evil and believes in Allah hath grasped the most trustworthy hand-hold, that never breaks. And Allah heareth and knoweth all things.
    (For anyone who isn't familiar with the Quran, Sourat Al Baqara verse 256).


    As for the 10 points you listed, if you actually read them and didn't just copy and paste the whole article here I'll make sure I reply to all 10 of them.
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    ~ Homer Simpson.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Liberal Authoritarian View Post
    I have two comments:

    1. I have not lost my head over it... Some Muslims have but not me
    2. Its only the Nazi's don't lose your head over it


    Its only the Nazis, Take a deep breath, is that what you mean?

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    Quote Originally Posted by pauli007001 View Post
    Its only the Nazis, Take a deep breath, is that what you mean?
    Well... take a deep breath of gas maybe..

    But that's just the Nazi's for you... They are just a barrel of fun!

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