Has the Republican Party become the American Taliban?

[BarbaraP]

Today's GOP has no interest in democracy, in governing, or in a prosperous America. They've become a party of religious extremists, who want to inject their own fanatical religious beliefs into the laws that govern us all.

It's no coincidence that after the elections in November, where the GOP ran on their ability to create jobs, they've done nothing but go on jihads against women, against unions, and now against the American voters.

[Durzo Blint]

Many Americans were against Obama-care and the democrats passed it anyway. I don't think the democrats would have lost as many seats had they simply listened to the American people.

I am not religious at all, though I do lean to the right in some of my political beliefs, though I don't care for the religious talk by politicians. I have noticed that both parties run to the center during an election, especially at the federal level.

Who is it that said, democracy is two wolves and sheep discussing what is for dinner.

[BarbaraP]

Many Americans were against Obama-care and the democrats passed it anyway. I don't think the democrats would have lost as many seats had they simply listened to the American people.

I am not religious at all, though I do lean to the right in some of my political beliefs, though I don't care for the religious talk by politicians. I have noticed that both parties run to the center during an election, especially at the federal level.

Who is it that said, democracy is two wolves and sheep discussing what is for dinner.

I disagree that American were against it. They were terrified by hundreds of millions spent by the industry to kill it. The Dems lost because big business PACS spent furiously and with lies. Also, the average voter only knew not much had been done regarding jobs, but didn't know the GOP killed anything that might have helped.

There was historic obstructionism since 2006, when the Dems won. And it continues today in the Senate.

[Durzo Blint]

I disagree that American were against it. They were terrified by hundreds of millions spent by the industry to kill it. The Dems lost because big business PACS spent furiously and with lies. Also, the average voter only knew not much had been done regarding jobs, but didn't know the GOP killed anything that might have helped.

There was historic obstructionism since 2006, when the Dems won. And it continues today in the Senate.

If I am wrong about the democrats losing the election due to Obama-care I will admit it. I'm too tired right now to go search for the polls on it. Let me say however if memory serves correct many Americans were against it. I have a long day ahead of me and when I get the chance I will look it up and try to provide backing for my claims.

[BarbaraP]

If I am wrong about the democrats losing the election due to Obama-care I will admit it. I'm too tired right now to go search for the polls on it. Let me say however if memory serves correct many Americans were against it. I have a long day ahead of me and when I get the chance I will look it up and try to provide backing for my claims.

Forget Obamacare. You make it sound as if the entire election was a referendum on it, which it was not. It was a referendum on jobs, of which fewer were created, and the Republicans ran on they would create jobs. In fact, those Republlican super pacs spent hundreds of millions of dollars saying so. Not to mention, scaring Americans with bogeymen.

They have not worked to create a single job. They have spent the last five months on a jihad on women, on unions, and now on the American voter.

[flash]

I am not a Republican because they are generally too progressive for me. I do, however, usually wind up voting for the Republicans because as bad as they are they are always 100 times better than the Democrats.

It is funny to see the geniuss refer to the Republicans as the American Taliban. It just shows idiotic the geniuss are.

They need to worry about the failures of the incompetent piece of shit Obama and their own filthy corrupt Democrat Party and worry less about the Republicans.

[Don]

There was historic obstructionism since 2006, when the Dems won. And it continues today in the Senate.

Without taking sides, that statement is a two headed coin. In fairness, the same thing happens when Republicans control, if Dems can muster enough votes. Any hint of cooperation from either side is largely a figment of one's imagination. There in lies the problem, some on both sides truly believe they know what's best, but they rarely truly listen to their supposed bosses, the people, 'cause they're too busy telling us what we want and need. That and convincing the gullible that they will do something that they know they haven't a hope in hell of doing without cooperation. The system, as envisioned by the Founding Fathers, is broken. How to fix it and remain true to the Constitution, is beyond my ken.

[Corky]

The GOP mourns the killing of bin Laden.

The GOP prays for another terrorist attack on the USA before the 2012 election.

The GOP prays for anything that will weaken Obama (hurt the USA) and improve its election chances in 2012.

Its motto:

GOP Before USA.

[flash]

The GOP prays for another terrorist attack on the USA before the 2012 election.

.

Really? Where did you hear that? Do they go to some specific church to pray for the attack or do they do it silently in their own homes? Have you heard any Republicans actually praying for the attack or are you just making this up?

I think the Democrats do their own praying but I don't have any more proof than you have. For instance, I think they prayed that the idiot that shot the Congresswoman was a Right Wing gun nut so they could use that as an excuse to do away with the Constitutional freedom to keep and bear arms. I think the pray for another big oil spill as an excuse to impose more stupid environmental wacko laws.

Maybe the filthy ass Democrats don't pray for anything because they don't beleive in God. That is probably more like it.

[BarbaraP]

Without taking sides, that statement is a two headed coin. In fairness, the same thing happens when Republicans control, if Dems can muster enough votes. Any hint of cooperation from either side is largely a figment of one's imagination. There in lies the problem, some on both sides truly believe they know what's best, but they rarely truly listen to their supposed bosses, the people, 'cause they're too busy telling us what we want and need. That and convincing the gullible that they will do something that they know they haven't a hope in hell of doing without cooperation. The system, as envisioned by the Founding Fathers, is broken. How to fix it and remain true to the Constitution, is beyond my ken.

Of course, both parties do it. But if you note, I said historic. And especially when the American people are in such dire straits, this is a time to find solutions, not play politics.

ThinkProgress » Filibusters skyrocket under Republican minority in 110th Congress.

Look at the chart at the link. That's historic. And that's before Obama took office. It's continued since. Eleven jobs bills, including ones that were paid for, and ones with projects that work and that Republicans favor, filibustered before the election. Why?

Not one of them would sign onto financial reform, when it's such a huge reason for the financil mess. Why? Health reform didn't get a single vote, even tho the mandatory purchase thing is a Republican idea. Why?

I'll tell you why. Because today's GOP has no desire to govern. They let GWB run amok with zero oversight, because they had a 3 day workweek. The same GOP that had 13 hours of testimony on torture at Abu Grahib had close to 200 hours of testimony on Clinton's Christmas card list.

They won in Nov all around the country, based mainly because they said they could create jobs. In the five months since then, there've been over 1,000 abortion bills around the country, including in Congress. But not one single jobs bill.

They care only about their jihads, and nothing for Americans. They are unfit to govern.

[flash]

They won in Nov all around the country, based mainly because they said they could create jobs. In the five months since then, there've been over 1,000 abortion bills around the country, including in Congress. But not one single jobs bill.

.

With those filthy ass Democrat morons in the Senate and in the White House doing obstructionism what do you expect? The only way we are going to get this country back on track is to get those asshole Democrats out of power.

As far as I know Democrats only serve one useful purpose. Every so often the people in the US get crazy and elect Democrats. What always happens is that becomes a great lesson in why Democrats should never hold office. The purpose that Democrats serve is to show the people of the US how stupid it is to elect Liberals to power. Too bad Americans forget that lesson too frequently. Obama has reminded them in spades. We have to get that piece of shit out of here.

[BarbaraP]

With those filthy ass Democrat morons in the Senate and in the White House doing obstructionism what do you expect? The only way we are going to get this country back on track is to get those asshole Democrats out of power.

As far as I know Democrats only serve one useful purpose. Every so often the people in the US get crazy and elect Democrats. What always happens is that becomes a great lesson in why Democrats should never hold office. The purpose that Democrats serve is to show the people of the US how stupid it is to elect Liberals to power. Too bad Americans forget that lesson too frequently. Obama has reminded them in spades. We have to get that piece of shit out of here.

Flash, you appear incapable of coherent discussion on the actual issue. Why don't you defend the Republican Party, which I call the American Taliban, on focusing on abortion over jobs.

Let's hear your defense.

[flash]

Flash, you appear incapable of coherent discussion on the actual issue. Why don't you defend the Republican Party, which I call the American Taliban, on focusing on abortion over jobs.

Let's hear your defense.

You start a stupid thread about Republicans being the "American Taliban" and you have the gall to mention "coherent discussion"??????

It is this piece of shit Obama that is destroying the US right now with his destructive Left Wing policies like Obamacare and getting us into more wars in the Middle East. You need to explain why we have higher unemployment than during Bush’s administration, more wars, higher debt and higher cost of gas at the pump. Why are we subsidizing stupid environmental wacko programs that don’t work instead of drilling for our own oil? The Democrats did a lot more damage to this country in the two years they were in complete charge of the government than the Republicans ever did. If anybody needs defending it is Obama and his gang of thugs that are screwing up this country big time.

I am sorry but this discussion forum is not Democratunderground.com. You don’t get to attack the Republicans and not ever have to defend the Democrats. If you are going to support some filthy little piece of shit like Obama then you had better be prepared to tell us why you are better off under Obama than you were with Bush when the unemployment was several percentage points lower and economic growth was higher.

[BarbaraP]

Our little friends, the American Taliban, are so assured of the popularity of the few ideas they espouse, like taking away access to birth control, gutting Medicare and Social Security, that they've embarked on a campaign to disenfranchise voters across numerous states.

Because when you know the votes won't be there for you, you just make sure the opposition can't vote.

[flash]

Our little friends, the American Taliban, are so assured of the popularity of the few ideas they espouse, like taking away access to birth control, gutting Medicare and Social Security, that they've embarked on a campaign to disenfranchise voters across numerous states.

Because when you know the votes won't be there for you, you just make sure the opposition can't vote.

First of all Republicans are big spenders just like the Democrats. They are not as bad as the filthy Democrats but they also spend far too much money. I am against the Republican Plan because it doesn't force the government to immediately balance the budget. The Republican Plan is still a Progressive Left Wing wing program that keeps the government in the welfare business and that is wrong.

I hate to be the one that tells you this but our dumbass government is $14.4 trillion dollars in debt and we don’t have the money to provide all these stupid social services. Nowadays the government is taking in about $2.1 trillion dollars in income each year (which is greater than the GNP of all but four countries in the world) but spending at a rate of $3.6 trillion dollars. That is a formula for disaster. Don’t you think that if that is the case then we should stop spending so much money?

The stupid ass Liberals idea of stealing money from “the rich” (which always means for a Liberal somebody making more money than themselves) but if you taxed every income over a million dollars a year at 100% it would only be a drop in the bucket.

I hope to hell we stop funding the murder of children through abortion. I hope we stop giving out food stamps to crack addicts and illegal aliens. We need to get the stupid government out of the business of providing welfare, free health care and giving money away to minorities like it was candy. Education should be funded on a local level and the federal government should stay out of the business.

As far as Social Security goes the dumbass Liberals spent all the money in the SS trust fund on worthless entitlement programs years and now they are refusing to do anything about it which will result in default in the future. Medicare is the same thing. The government can’t manage the money that people pay in and they provide free Medicare and Medicaid services to many that never paid in and now they are refusing to deal with the consequences.

Even a dickhead like Bill Clinton understands the Democrats have nothing and they should embrace the Republican plan. He made public statements about that yesterday. Only the geniuss like you don’t understand.

[Lois Lane]

First of all Republicans are big spenders just like the Democrats. They are not as bad as the filthy Democrats but they also spend far too much money. I am against the Republican Plan because it doesn't force the government to immediately balance the budget. The Republican Plan is still a Progressive Left Wing wing program that keeps the government in the welfare business and that is wrong.

I hate to be the one that tells you this but our dumbass government is $14.4 trillion dollars in debt and we don’t have the money to provide all these stupid social services. Nowadays the government is taking in about $2.1 trillion dollars in income each year (which is greater than the GNP of all but four countries in the world) but spending at a rate of $3.6 trillion dollars. That is a formula for disaster. Don’t you think that if that is the case then we should stop spending so much money?

The stupid ass Liberals idea of stealing money from “the rich” (which always means for a Liberal somebody making more money than themselves) but if you taxed every income over a million dollars a year at 100% it would only be a drop in the bucket.

I hope to hell we stop funding the murder of children through abortion. I hope we stop giving out food stamps to crack addicts and illegal aliens. We need to get the stupid government out of the business of providing welfare, free health care and giving money away to minorities like it was candy. Education should be funded on a local level and the federal government should stay out of the business.

As far as Social Security goes the dumbass Liberals spent all the money in the SS trust fund on worthless entitlement programs years and now they are refusing to do anything about it which will result in default in the future. Medicare is the same thing. The government can’t manage the money that people pay in and they provide free Medicare and Medicaid services to many that never paid in and now they are refusing to deal with the consequences.

Even a dickhead like Bill Clinton understands the Democrats have nothing and they should embrace the Republican plan. He made public statements about that yesterday. Only the geniuss like you don’t understand.

I fnd it quite fascinating that Flash would want the richest country in the world to stop supporting its poor and needy BUT that a small country like GB or a middling rich country such as France or Germany can afford to do all that and more while still managing to stay afloat.
Clearly there is another huge drain on the US economy and one that Flash never mentioned..defense. The defense budget in the US is equal to the GDP of most countries in the world and absorbs vast amounts of taxpayers' money.
So Flash I sugget that it is defense that should be cut in straightened times. Close vets hospitals, improve and use civilian hospitals for all. Stop building aircraft you will never use and use the engineers to start rebuilding and strengthening the buildings in storm-hit US. Build proper levees and manage the rivers properly. Promise that and even the Repubs might win the next election.

[flash]

I fnd it quite fascinating that Flash would want the richest country in the world to stop supporting its poor and needy .

Welfare should not be the role of government. Our "poor and needy" are third and forth generation welfare queens, illegal aliens and crack whores. I don't feel any need to "provide for them".


The government should be in the business of providing for a national defense, build the roads, provide for the police, run the courts and a few other necessary government services and that is about it.

The people should be able to keep their own money and have it taken from them by force to provide welfare for other people. The people should have their own personal responsibility to provide for themselves. Charity should be voluntary and not forced by the government.

The very fact that the Western Democrats are all in tremendous debt and have very high taxation is the legacy of the failure of the welfare system.

[Lois Lane]

Have you ever done any studies on why there is real poverty in the USA?
You can start here:
The Causes and Solutions to Poverty in America - Associated Content from Yahoo! - associatedcontent.com
Poverty in the United States - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia (section Factors on Poverty)

If you take the time to read about why people are poor you will cojnsistently come across factors such as education, environment, health, employment, immigration, single parenthood and minimum wage and tax levels in states. With some exemptions, thise countries with high taxation have low poverty. Couire it stadns t resons since tax pays for infrastructure, jobs investment, health, education and cleaning up of the environment. The very things that encourage poverty to develop.

You know, your "I'm Alright Jack" materialsim and "What's mine is mine alone" is very odd considering you say you are a Christian, which in fact I don't believe when to comes to the Love thy Neighbour bit. It isn't OK to close your eyes and pretend it is all their fault. Go and speak with some of your on country's poor instead of swanning off to another country which you cna leave after a week and feel good about yourself.
If charity were voluntary among people like you, you would see starvation and dead children on the streets outside your front door.

[flash]

Have you ever done any studies on why there is real poverty in the USA?
You can start here:
The Causes and Solutions to Poverty in America - Associated Content from Yahoo! - associatedcontent.com
Poverty in the United States - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia (section Factors on Poverty)

If you take the time to read about why people are poor you will cojnsistently come across factors such as education, environment, health, employment, immigration, single parenthood and minimum wage and tax levels in states. With some exemptions, thise countries with high taxation have low poverty. Couire it stadns t resons since tax pays for infrastructure, jobs investment, health, education and cleaning up of the environment. The very things that encourage poverty to develop.

You know, your "I'm Alright Jack" materialsim and "What's mine is mine alone" is very odd considering you say you are a Christian, which in fact I don't believe when to comes to the Love thy Neighbour bit. It isn't OK to close your eyes and pretend it is all their fault. Go and speak with some of your on country's poor instead of swanning off to another country which you cna leave after a week and feel good about yourself.
If charity were voluntary among people like you, you would see starvation and dead children on the streets outside your front door.

America is the richest country in the world. Our “poor” at the poverty level are better off than the great majority of the people in world. I have posted data on this before. Our poor live better than many middle class Europeans. For instance, obesity due to high calorie food intake is one of the main problems of our poor.

I understand that some people in the richest country in the world chose to get addicted to drugs, chose not to take advantage of education opportunities, chose not to get off their sorry asses in the morning and go look for a job and chose to be wards of the state. I understand there is a whole class of ghetto dwellers the Democrat Party has made their vassals by giving them welfare. There are also the illegal aliens that are milking our welfare system. There are sorry ass people all over the world and in a country of 300,000,000 we certainly have our share. That is their problem and not mine. I may choose to be generous with charity (which I am) but I don’t like the idea of the government talking my money by force of arms and giving it to somebody else. It simply is not right or moral. Stealing never is.

The role of government should not be to provide welfare. There is a cost to welfare. For every penny you pay to a welfare queen you take it from somebody that earned that money.

In the post WWII era the welfare state has got out of control big time. The Socialists states have all failed big time and the Western Democracies are all close to bankruptcy with low productivity due to high taxation and government interference.

This stupid ass welfare state mentality is destroying all of us.

If you rob Peter to Pay Paul soon Peter will run out of money and both Peter and Paul will be screwed big time. Borrowing money to continue to spend at the same levels you were when you were stealing from Peter is only going to get you into more trouble as we are seeing.

The socialists don’t understand that socialism is not a viable economic model for many reasons.

It is best for the stupid government of any country to stay out of the welfare business.

[Lois Lane]

Flash the reality on teh ground belies you. Germany and the Scandfanavian coiuntries are very wealthy indeed and have a very robust social services system.
I would rather my tax money goes to someone who, through no fault of their own, needs help. NOT to invest in some stupid piee of defense equipment which will be sitting in some desert rotting before it ever gets off the ground. Utter waste of money.especially ehen therea re children with not enough to eat nearby. The obesity you mention is caused not by not enough but by not enough of the mroe expensive food that contains vitamin and minerals in the right balance. Fats and sugars are the hallmark of cheap food.But hey if it makes you feel more like a man to hide behind so much uselss weaponry, I have absolutely no respect for that. I suspect Christ wouldn't have had either.

[flash]

Flash the reality on teh ground belies you. Germany and the Scandfanavian coiuntries are very wealthy indeed and have a very robust social services system.
I would rather my tax money goes to someone who, through no fault of their own, needs help. NOT to invest in some stupid piee of defense equipment which will be sitting in some desert rotting before it ever gets off the ground. Utter waste of money.especially ehen therea re children with not enough to eat nearby. The obesity you mention is caused not by not enough but by not enough of the mroe expensive food that contains vitamin and minerals in the right balance. Fats and sugars are the hallmark of cheap food.But hey if it makes you feel more like a man to hide behind so much uselss weaponry, I have absolutely no respect for that. I suspect Christ wouldn't have had either.

Most individual states in the US are wealthier than most European countries. For instance, if France was an American state (God forbid) is would be about on the same level as Arkansas, which is one of poorer states. There are several states including my own of Florida that are richer than Germany. There are states richer than the UK.

In the post WWII world the US has had double the economic growth rate of the European economy because we were more capitalist and until recently had lower taxes and less socialism.

I have explained this to you before but you have failed to listen. Here in the US we spend only about 6% of our GNP for national defense and that is the strongest military in the world including fighting your wars for you in Libya. The cost of the military is not our problem. Entitlement programs are our problem as it is your problem.

I will be inclined to help out people “through no fault of their own” through personal charity choices. It is morally wrong for 51% of the people to steal from the other 49% and then use the money for gain. For instance here in the states 46% of the people pay no income tax but yet that group is the recipient of most of the entitlement programs. I suspect it is the same if not worse in your country.

The welfare state is wrong on many levels. Not only does it destroy economies but also personal responsibility and is simply not the moral thing to do. Slavery to the state never is.

[Lois Lane]

If you had taken the time to read what I linked you would see that there is not 49% oin welfare or consd=idered poor in the uS but around 15% onj average.
And if you had thought this through you would not be boasting about relative wealth but wondering why so many people are struggling. (BTW you also hold the biggest national debt in the world).
What you need is more not less regulation. Regualtion of standards of education and of health across the entire USA. so that Arkansas educates its young as well as Massachusetts. So that the natural defenses against weather and pollution are guaranteed by the government wherever you live. The government is there to provide the opportunity of a life for its citizens, a future and a standard of living which is acceptable. Not lots of rusting weaponry in some desert somewhere.
Where has welfare destroyed countries? And since when is generosity and consideration for the less fortunate immoral? Go and read your Bible.

[flash]

If you had taken the time to read what I linked you would see that there is not 49% oin welfare or consd=idered poor in the uS but around 15% onj average.
And if you had thought this through you would not be boasting about relative wealth but wondering why so many people are struggling. (BTW you also hold the biggest national debt in the world).
What you need is more not less regulation. Regualtion of standards of education and of health across the entire USA. so that Arkansas educates its young as well as Massachusetts. So that the natural defenses against weather and pollution are guaranteed by the government wherever you live. The government is there to provide the opportunity of a life for its citizens, a future and a standard of living which is acceptable. Not lots of rusting weaponry in some desert somewhere.
Where has welfare destroyed countries? And since when is generosity and consideration for the less fortunate immoral? Go and read your Bible.

There are several countries including your own that is close to bankruptcy and that is a result the welfare state. The welfare state has created a monster and you simply do not have enough money to substain it. Nobody does. For many years the US had the common sense to keep the spending under control but in the last few year we lost it and because of that we are now $14.3 trillion in debt. Your country in relative terms is just as bad off.

The government does not create wealth. Government is an impediment to wealth except in a very few instances of providing common infrastructure. For instance, we are better off because government money was used to create the US Interstate Highway system. However, we are not better off because we give illegal aliens food stamps and free medical care.

A country is not better off by distributing money made by one group and giving it to another group. If you are on the receiving end of that equation you are happy to get the handout but that money came from the hard work of somebody else and they get to spend the fruits of their labor.

The side of the equation that you socialists always miss is that in order to pay for all this welfare crap there has to be significant direct or indirect taxes. Here in the US the filthy government collects about a third of the GNP for the cost of government. In your country the rate is about 45%. That is a lot of money that you earn that is taken away from you and at the end of the day you really get very little in return for it unless you are completely on the dole.

[Lois Lane]

There are several countries including your own that is close to bankruptcy and that is a result the welfare state. The welfare state has created a monster and you simply do not have enough money to substain it.


Utter rubbish. A selfish and greedy man's dream. We are on the brink of bankrupotcy becaue your greedy and selfish bankers put us there. No more or less reason. That is why after over 50 years of the welfare state in GB and no hint of bankruptcy, we are now in a more precarious position. And can you tell me why the Scandanavian countries have some of the highest tax rates and strongest welfare states on the planet and always come out near the top in any list of global standards of living?

Human Development Index - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia


As for what we get for our taxes, I am happy to report that we get free medical cover at all levels, free education, public services including police, fire, garbage pick up, ambulance, and everything down to curb cutting, the roads and pavements we walk on and the highways we drive on. It would cost me a fortune to pay private greedy people to do all that for me.

[flash]

As for what we get for our taxes, I am happy to report that we get free medical cover at all levels, free education, public services including police, fire, garbage pick up, ambulance, and everything down to curb cutting, the roads and pavements we walk on and the highways we drive on. It would cost me a fortune to pay private greedy people to do all that for me.

Spoken like a true Socialists.

You don’t get “free” anything. There ain’t no such thing as a free lunch. You pay for it big time. There is a tremendous cost to those things that are in your silly little Socialists mind you think are “free”.

You don’t have a clue how much that “free” medical care cost you. I did some research on that last year during a discussion and I read where the cost is hidden for the most part and that even your government doesn’t know. We do know that your NHS is the third largest employer in the world, which means it is a bureaucratic monstrosity. I posted an article showing where you have more administrators in that system than you have doctors. That is a tremendous inefficiency that is paid for by somebody at some time. Just because you don’t write a check at your doctor’s office don’t mean it is free. It means you pay at another time and that cost is significant.

We are taxed high enough here in the US but you are even worse over there, Every time I go to Europe I see the effects of the high taxes on the price of things. That VAT is a hidden tax that makes everything more expensive. I understand it is 18% now and there are serious discussions to make it even more.

The high taxes in Europe effects your standard of living big time. The difference in the standard of living between you Europeans and us Americans can be explained in terms of the difference in taxes. You live in smaller dwellings, pay more for gas, your food and manufactured goods cost more in addition to services and the root of the difference is the cost of government.

Because I believe in personal responsibly instead of slavery to the state I would rather make choices on the money I earn rather than give it to some stupid and probably corrupt bureaucrat. For instance, if I have the money in my pocket I can buy better health care than the government can provide for me. I practice that big time. Because I am a veteran I am entitled to free health care in a veteran’s system that is probably better than your NHS system. However, I pass on that government care and buy better coverage through free enterprise.

[Lois Lane]

Spoken like a true Socialists.

You don’t get “free” anything. There ain’t no such thing as a free lunch. You pay for it big time. There is a tremendous cost to those things that are in your silly little Socialists mind you think are “free”.

My health coverage is free whether it is for a bad cold or years of cancer treatment. For whatever, I pay the same. Some claim more, some less. But at least people in GB don't go bankrupt before they die.

You don’t have a clue how much that “free” medical care cost you. I did some research on that last year during a discussion and I read where the cost is hidden for the most part and that even your government doesn’t know. We do know that your NHS is the third largest employer in the world, which means it is a bureaucratic monstrosity. I posted an article showing where you have more administrators in that system than you have doctors. That is a tremendous inefficiency that is paid for by somebody at some time. Just because you don’t write a check at your doctor’s office don’t mean it is free. It means you pay at another time and that cost is significant. [/quote]
All summed up above. The cost of medication for a cold and for cancer is the same. So is the cost of treatment. The admin may be swollen in parts but it takes rather a large system to care for 61 million people.

We are taxed high enough here in the US but you are even worse over there, Every time I go to Europe I see the effects of the high taxes on the price of things. That VAT is a hidden tax that makes everything more expensive. I understand it is 18% now and there are serious discussions to make it even more.[/quotew]

It isn't hidden. Everyone knows what it is, how much it is and what it is for. You lot have state taxes, local taxes, sales taxes...same thing. I could as easily say sales tax is hidden and in fact it isn't fair because some states have it and some don't

The high taxes in Europe effects your standard of living big time. The difference in the standard of living between you Europeans and us Americans can be explained in terms of the difference in taxes.

The standard of living in Norway is and has been far higher than the US (now ranked fourth) for years. They pay quite high taxes. So does Switzeerland, Sweden, and Holland which is one of the most populatied countries in Europe. BTW I do wish you would present some facts and stats instead of stabbing in the dark and hopoing to get at least one detail right. If you never research how can you hope to get anything right since all you have is instinct and party political propaganda to go on?

You live in smaller dwellings,

Due to the fact that we are an island?????

pay more for gas,

It comes form further away and we pay different charges for it. Nothing to do with taxes FFS.

your food and manufactured goods cost more in addition to services and the root of the difference is the cost of government.

Oh goody. Now DO PLEASE tell me how the govt decides all these things over and above market forces? Just a few facts for a change will do.

Because I believe in personal responsibly instead of slavery to the state I would rather make choices on the money I earn rather than give it to some stupid and probably corrupt bureaucrat. For instance, if I have the money in my pocket I can buy better health care than the government can provide for me. I practice that big time. Because I am a veteran I am entitled to free health care in a veteran’s system that is probably better than your NHS system. However, I pass on that government care and buy better coverage through free enterprise.

OH so your governmetn DOES provide health care. For some. And aren't you lucky you I'm all right Jack. I am beginning to feel quite sick. tkae your assumptions, gross generalisations and downright superficial guess work and shove it. Either answer the points I prove by stats I find or belt up. Your avoidance of reality is getting ridiculous. You are creating a reality that isn't there out of what you WANT it to be and by god it is so far off the mark as to be laughable and you ignore proof that what you say is nonsense.
Now either show me some stats to prove your points or get lost becuse I am fed up discussing your selfish greed. [/QUOTE]

[flash]

My health coverage is free

Even after I took the time to explain it to you it is clear that you don’t get it. Nothing is free. Who pays the doctors? They don’t work for free do they? Who builds the hospitals? Do the construction workers do it for no money and the building material donated? Who provides the power? You do understand that the money for these things come from some where, don’t you?

You have a very difficult time understanding that just because you don’t have to write a check the day you visit the doctor then you still have to pay. With the tax burden in your country being at around 45% of GNP that means you pay big time. The NHS is a bloated bureaucracy that inefficiently provides substandard service. Your very low survival rate of cancer and other diseases is a great indication of how poor your healthcare really is. I posted those figures in a discussion a few months ago.

You Socialists are very ignorant when it comes to economics. You don’t understand where the money to pay for these stupid ass entitlement programs comes from. In the case of most European countries it comes from high taxation (which affects everybody’s standard of living) and debt. In the case of the UK lots of debt. It cost you more money than you take in to have all these “free” services that delights you so much.

The greed you talk about comes from those greedy individuals that are too sorry to provide for their own well being so they use the electorate process to steal from others, which is what Socialism is all about. Socialists are the greediest SOBs on the planet. They are the modern day robber barons. They have discovered that they can steal through the electorate process. Democratic Socialism is when 51% of the greedy people find out they can legally steal from the other 49%. Pathetic when you think it, isn’t it?

[Lois Lane]

Don't insult me.
of course I understand how taxation and spending works.
YOU missed my point.
Treating a cold in an NHS hospital costs the same as treating cancer to me. Expensive treatment costs the same as cheap treatment. The costs of the expensive tretment are FREE over and above the cheap treatment to ME. I could spend the rest of my days in an NHS hospital FREE EVEN if I pay no taxes after I became sick.

Now I am tired of chatting to an idiot. Come back to me when you have some real figures.

[flash]

Don't insult me.
of course I understand how taxation and spending works.
YOU missed my point.
Treating a cold in an NHS hospital costs the same as treating cancer to me. Expensive treatment costs the same as cheap treatment. The costs of the expensive tretment are FREE over and above the cheap treatment to ME. I could spend the rest of my days in an NHS hospital FREE EVEN if I pay no taxes after I became sick.

Now I am tired of chatting to an idiot. Come back to me when you have some real figures.

Do you know the difference between paying when you are treated and paying when you pay taxes? Is that concept beyond your comprehension?

Maybe you don't understand the difference because you are not productive and you don't pay too many taxes. Do other people pay for your healthcare through their tax bill? Are you on the dole?

By your stupid ass definition of “free” I get free medical services because I never pay at the doctor’s office. It is the same whether I have the flu or cancer.

Instead of paying more in taxes I pay for healthcare insurance on a monthly basis. I have less of a tax bill in the US than my counterpart in the UK so I can afford high quality private health care as can most Americans. If we were paying at the same tax rates here in the US like you are paying in the UK we would be screwed just like you are because we would have very little disposable money. If we were dependent on the stupid government for healthcare like you are we would be really screwed because we would have to take whatever the non profit motivated government chose to give to us rather than what we needed or wanted.

[BarbaraP]

This is the face of the unhinged right in the US today. Incapable of any rational thought, much less coherent argument, but he's got this.

Hey geniuss

Here is a picture of the guy that is going to kick Obama's ass. He will team up with Michelle Bachmann and you genius idiots will never know what hit you.

There's something sick in the United States today, and it's being funded by the corporations and billionaires who control 95% of the wealth here.

See, 95% isn't enough for them. So when you whine about 'socialism' and the middle class which is now almost extinct in America, what you're saying is you agree with Flash, who is nothing more than a willing tool for those who believe that 95% isn't enough.

These billionaires and corporations paid hundreds and hundreds of millions on this 'new' party, the Tea Party, which is nothing more than the same corporatists in new clothing.

They are working to disenfranchise voters because there aren't enough voters who approve of their agenda.

They are working to destroy public education, so that the only educated people will be those who can afford it.

They're trying to kill the last unions left in America, representing the last people in the middle class.

They're trying to kill any and all of the reforms to our financial system, so they can continue to steal from all of us, and that includes you people in Europe.


And when Flash, or some total fruitcake in AZ takes a machine gun and guns down someone like Gabby Giffords, or worse, those corporatists will all gasp and say that really isn't what they wanted, no no. He's just a lone nutcase.

Bought and paid for by the one percenters.

This is the American Taliban, coming to your country next.

[flash]

This is the face of the unhinged right in the US today. Incapable of any rational thought, much less coherent argument, but he's got this.

Idiots like you never bother to read the Constitution of the United States. In that Constitution is the right to keep and bear arms, which Gov Perry is doing. Only the geniuss are threaten with Constitutional rights.

There's something sick in the United States today, and it's being funded by the corporations and billionaires who control 95% of the wealth here.

In 2010 more millionaires contributed to Obama’s campaign than to McCain. It was also the case in 2004 when more millionaires contributed to that moron Kerry than to Bush.

See, 95% isn't enough for them. So when you whine about 'socialism' and the middle class which is now almost extinct in America, what you're saying is you agree with Flash, who is nothing more than a willing tool for those who believe that 95% isn't enough.

The cost of government is what destroying the middle class in the US. With the filthy government taking over a third of the GNP for revenues then how can any American family get ahead? In many families it takes two working people to make a living because one of them is working just to pay the tax bill. In every family in the US, regardless of income, the cost of government is the single largest expenditure.

These billionaires and corporations paid hundreds and hundreds of millions on this 'new' party, the Tea Party, which is nothing more than the same corporatists in new clothing.

Many corporations paid off Obama because they wanted the national healthcare because they didn’t want to pay the enormous cost of private health insurance. Obama also bailed out several corporations and hired the CEO of one of the largest ones as his chief economic advisor.

They are working to disenfranchise voters because there aren't enough voters who approve of their agenda.

That is a laugh when you see how the Democrats tried to steal the election of 2000 by trying to change the votes to favor their candidate that lost in every recount. They also stole elections in Washington State and Minnesota. They put out Black Panthers to intimidate white voters and when Obama got into office he dismissed the charges.

They are working to destroy public education, so that the only educated people will be those who can afford it.

They are working to reduce the amount of money the filthy teachers unions get that is destroying public education. The teacher’s unions are greedy robber barons that are raiding the state treasuries for their own greed. Meanwhile the states are going bankrupt and education is suffering.

They're trying to kill the last unions left in America, representing the last people in the middle class.

The union have destroyed themselves by being greedy bastards that can compete in the market place of labor without government protection from the filthy Democrats that the union pay off.

They're trying to kill any and all of the reforms to our financial system, so they can continue to steal from all of us, and that includes you people in Europe.

It was Obama that used taxpayer’s funds to bail out the banks.

And when Flash, or some total fruitcake in AZ takes a machine gun and guns down someone like Gabby Giffords, or worse, those corporatists will all gasp and say that really isn't what they wanted, no no. He's just a lone nutcase.

That Fruitcake in AZ that shot the congresswoman was a Left Wing nut according to his friends and acquaintances. We always have a lot to fear from the Left in America. They are not called geniuss for nothing.

This is the American Taliban, coming to your country next.

Lets hope to hell that America gets on the right track. The first step in doing that is to get rid of the piece of shit Obama. We kicked a whole lot of those filthy Democrats out in the last election but there are still a bunch of those cockroaches running around that we need to get rid of in 2012.

[BarbaraP]

Idiots like you never bother to read the Constitution of the United States. In that Constitution is the right to keep and bear arms, which Gov Perry is doing. Only the geniuss are threaten with Constitutional rights.





In 2010 more millionaires contributed to Obama’s campaign than to McCain. It was also the case in 2004 when more millionaires contributed to that moron Kerry than to Bush.



The cost of government is what destroying the middle class in the US. With the filthy government taking over a third of the GNP for revenues then how can any American family get ahead? In many families it takes two working people to make a living because one of them is working just to pay the tax bill. In every family in the US, regardless of income, the cost of government is the single largest expenditure.





Many corporations paid off Obama because they wanted the national healthcare because they didn’t want to pay the enormous cost of private health insurance. Obama also bailed out several corporations and hired the CEO of one of the largest ones as his chief economic advisor.



That is a laugh when you see how the Democrats tried to steal the election of 2000 by trying to change the votes to favor their candidate that lost in every recount. They also stole elections in Washington State and Minnesota. They put out Black Panthers to intimidate white voters and when Obama got into office he dismissed the charges.



They are working to reduce the amount of money the filthy teachers unions get that is destroying public education. The teacher’s unions are greedy robber barons that are raiding the state treasuries for their own greed. Meanwhile the states are going bankrupt and education is suffering.



The union have destroyed themselves by being greedy bastards that can compete in the market place of labor without government protection from the filthy Democrats that the union pay off.



It was Obama that used taxpayer’s funds to bail out the banks.




That Fruitcake in AZ that shot the congresswoman was a Left Wing nut according to his friends and acquaintances. We always have a lot to fear from the Left in America. They are not called geniuss for nothing.





Lets hope to hell that America gets on the right track. The first step in doing that is to get rid of the piece of shit Obama. We kicked a whole lot of those filthy Democrats out in the last election but there are still a bunch of those cockroaches running around that we need to get rid of in 2012.

Someone seems to live in an alternate universe, where up is down and black is white.

Obama bailed out the banks? Ever hear of google?

The Bush administration overpaid tens of billions of dollars for stocks and other assets in its massive bailout last year of Wall Street banks and financial institutions, a new study by a government watchdog says.

The Congressional Oversight Panel, in a report released Friday, said last year's overpayments amounted to a taxpayer-financed $78 billion subsidy of the firms.

You're proving, with every post, exactly what I said. If you can return to planet earth, see if you can correct the rest of your errors.

[flash]

Someone seems to live in an alternate universe, where up is down and black is white.

I think we all know that it is you geniuss live in the alternate universe.

If you read something else other than what is put out by the Democrat spin machine then you would understand the damage that the Democrats are doing to America. You geniuss are not exactly known for knowing the truth about hardly anything. For instance, you think increased taxes and taking money from hard working Americans and giving to your sleazy special interest groups is a good thing.

I know that brown spot in the middle of Obama's ass must taste good to you geniuss but the rest of American don't like it too much.

I don't think the government should be in the business of bailing out anybody and when Bush did it he was wrong but your boy Obama also bailed out business and banks once he got into office. If that is something that you, like me, don't like then you should condemn that piece of shit Obama for doing it because he did it big time. Of course you geniuss are famous for never holding morons like Obama accountable for anything, aren’t you?

When are you going to hold him accountable for spending a trillion and a half more dollars than he took in or the astronomical unemployment three years into office, or the $14.4 trillion deficits or the cost of gas being $4.00 a gallon or another war in the Middle East or running American healthcare with that filthy ass Obamacare or any of the other damage this turkey is doing to our country? Are you ever going to get your head out of your ass?

[Lois Lane]

Do you know the difference between paying when you are treated and paying when you pay taxes? Is that concept beyond your comprehension?

Maybe you don't understand the difference because you are not productive and you don't pay too many taxes. Do other people pay for your healthcare through their tax bill? Are you on the dole?

By your stupid ass definition of “free” I get free medical services because I never pay at the doctor’s office. It is the same whether I have the flu or cancer.

Instead of paying more in taxes I pay for healthcare insurance on a monthly basis. I have less of a tax bill in the US than my counterpart in the UK so I can afford high quality private health care as can most Americans. If we were paying at the same tax rates here in the US like you are paying in the UK we would be screwed just like you are because we would have very little disposable money. If we were dependent on the stupid government for healthcare like you are we would be really screwed because we would have to take whatever the non profit motivated government chose to give to us rather than what we needed or wanted.

I would not say either the UK, Norway, Sweden, Holland or Australia are poor or have a low standard fo living. I showed you that. Yet they all have taxes to pay and health services on offer.
Facts belie you Flash. You haven't offered any of your own excoepr some warped references to what you think is the case. I can't talk to someone who doesn't know what he is talking about.

[flash]

I would not say either the UK, Norway, Sweden, Holland or Australia are poor or have a low standard fo living. I showed you that. Yet they all have taxes to pay and health services on offer.
Facts belie you Flash. You haven't offered any of your own excoepr some warped references to what you think is the case. I can't talk to someone who doesn't know what he is talking about.

I posted tons of facts on the failure of the NHS and a lot on the failure of the Canadian system last year in an extensive discussion on health care. You can access those threads through the search function. I am not going to turn this thread into another prolonged discussion on the failures of socialized medicine by repeating what has already been discussed to great lengths.

I also posted some very interesting facts on how the Scandinavian socialized systems have been a failure and that them being well off is a myth. I may repost that on another thread because the facts pretty well debunk this myth that socialism works in a Democracy. The facts are that Socialism fails in a Democracy just like it fails in an authoritative regime.

In the context of this thread it is clear that you don’t understand the tremendous burden that the socialized programs have on your economy and how that is preventing everybody from being better off. You, like every ignorant socialists, has this misconception that everything is “free”. You even stated that several times. You have no clue as the tremendous costs of the bloated bureaucratic programs that are destroying your country by robbing you of your earned income through tremendous taxation and putting you in debt through borrowing to the keep the programs going.

[Lois Lane]

YOu don't get it Flaash.
I'll make it very simple for youi.

Say it costs the NHS £10 per hour to fund a cold and £100 per hour to fund cancer. Say I pay £50 per hour in taxes that go to the NHS.

I pay for 5 bouts of a cold. My cancer treatment is 90% free.

NOW do you get it?

As for Scandanavian countries, I gave you stats that prove you wrong. They enjoy one of the highest standards of living in the world and have done for consecutive years and years. The best that the USA could muster was fourth.

[flash]

YOu don't get it Flaash.
I'll make it very simple for youi.

Say it costs the NHS £10 per hour to fund a cold and £100 per hour to fund cancer. Say I pay £50 per hour in taxes that go to the NHS.

I pay for 5 bouts of a cold. My cancer treatment is 90% free.

NOW do you get it?

As for Scandanavian countries, I gave you stats that prove you wrong. They enjoy one of the highest standards of living in the world and have done for consecutive years and years. The best that the USA could muster was fourth.

I don’t think you understand that nothing is free. If you use services and don’t pay the full cost then that means somebody else has to pay.

My wife doesn’t have cancer but she has Lupus, which is a high cost chronic disease. The Lupus attacked her liver. She takes dozens of medicines and frequently sees the doctor and had chemo treatment for several years.

She gets first rate care. Her life had been saved and she will probably live a normal life.

We usually spend between 4%-6% of our income for medical each year. That includes everything like insurance cost, copayments and out of pocket expenses. We get first rate care and the cost is not very significant. Remember, that we also pay lower taxes here than you do over there.

My wife belongs to a Lupus Internet discussion forum. It is a worldwide forum with several thousand members. I don’t ever look at the site but my wife, who is very active on the site, has told me that the UK and Canadian members are always complaining that they can’t get proper treatment for their Lupus. Some of them even talked about coming to the US for treatment.

Cancer survival rates in the US are much better than in the UK. You would be better off here.

[Lois Lane]

WILL YOU PLEASE STOP CHANGING THE SUBJECT!!

I am not talking about comparative costs FFS. You won't comment on comparative standards if living, which happen irrespective of taxation policy, not will you defend your ridiculous claims that taxation has brought down European countries. I have answered your claim that patients do not get free treatment in the NHS but you have ignored it so I assume that you finally understand it. Now, struggling with anything else to say you start comparing treatment for one condition between countries.
Since I have been here you have been shooting off at the mouth some of the most ridiculous, untrue and often laughable things I have heard in a long time and I have come to the conclusion that you really don't know what you are talking about other than repeating some dogmatic line in the hopes that you might hit something worth saying. Even to calling Clinton for over-regulating finance when he pretty much actually stopped regulating finance at all and then trying to blame the financial crash on him retrospectively when in fact it was the unbridled lack of regulation and the greed culture that he and Greenspan had let develop that caused it.
Welcome to my ignore list. I can't speak to a greedy, uncaring man who likes to call himself a Christian but in fact is the antithesis of one. AND who doesn't know what he is talking about.

[flash]

WILL YOU PLEASE STOP CHANGING THE SUBJECT!!

I am not talking about comparative costs FFS. You won't comment on comparative standards if living, which happen irrespective of taxation policy, not will you defend your ridiculous claims that taxation has brought down European countries. I have answered your claim that patients do not get free treatment in the NHS but you have ignored it so I assume that you finally understand it. Now, struggling with anything else to say you start comparing treatment for one condition between countries.
Since I have been here you have been shooting off at the mouth some of the most ridiculous, untrue and often laughable things I have heard in a long time and I have come to the conclusion that you really don't know what you are talking about other than repeating some dogmatic line in the hopes that you might hit something worth saying. Even to calling Clinton for over-regulating finance when he pretty much actually stopped regulating finance at all and then trying to blame the financial crash on him retrospectively when in fact it was the unbridled lack of regulation and the greed culture that he and Greenspan had let develop that caused it.
Welcome to my ignore list. I can't speak to a greedy, uncaring man who likes to call himself a Christian but in fact is the antithesis of one. AND who doesn't know what he is talking about.

So being against high taxation and big government is greedy?

I think just the opposite is true. The Socialists are the greedy ones of the world. They want something for nothing and they want somebody else to pay for it.

[Robin Goodfellow]

So being against high taxation and big government is greedy?

I think just the opposite is true. The Socialists are the greedy ones of the world. They want something for nothing and they want somebody else to pay for it.

I'm a socialist and I work very very hard for my money and take very little from the state. In fact I am happy to pay taxes that are then spent on those less fortunate than myself as I understand that society only works if there is equality which in the end is all socialism is really, equality in all things.

[AMGINGLES]

The large majority of socialists are well intentioned. The problem is as with everything else the corporatists hi-jack it at the highest levels and use it to fund neo imperialistic wars. Look at Cleggy, taking our fees money and turning it into £bombs for Libya. All whilst his Universities train the next generation of Saudi dictator.

[flash]

I'm a socialist and I work very very hard for my money and take very little from the state. In fact I am happy to pay taxes that are then spent on those less fortunate than myself as I understand that society only works if there is equality which in the end is all socialism is really, equality in all things.

Instead of giving money to the inefficient and often corrupt government to dole it out to special interest groups why not keep the money yourself and then give it out as you see fit for charity?

Wouldn’t you have more freedom that way? Why pay the enormous government overhead?

Without the welfare state and the tremendous accompanying tax burden you would have a lot more disposable income. Then people like you that want to help other people would have the freedom to give their money to whomever that thought were needy.

People like me would have the choice of not giving it to illegal aliens or forth generation welfare queens or druggies.

Isn’t that a better system?

[flash]

Let me give you socialists a little lesson in real economic decision making freedom.

My son just got out of the military and is going to college. Because of his service he earned what is call the GI Bill, which is money from his previous employer (the federal government) to go to college.

The government agrees to pay tuition rates commensurate with the rates the state universities charge. If somebody wants to go to a private college where the rates are higher then he/she must make up the difference.

My son chose to go to a private university where the rates were about twice the state rate.

There is a nationwide private fund that has been established that give grants to combat veterans to make up the difference between state rates and private college rates. Because of that fund he has all his tuition covered.

Isn’t that a much better system than the government taxing people and providing the free education? In this case if you want to help a veteran then you contribute to the fund. If not you don’t. It is a well endowed fund so many people contribute and they do it out of love and respect for the veterans and not because the government is forcing them to do it. The government is not involved so it is not inefficient or influences by political correctness like insuring a certain racial mixture or something silly like that.

What we need to do is return the enormous amount of tax money to the people and let the people decide themselves if they want to give their money to somebody else as welfare payments. That is real freedom. The government needs to stay out of the business of redistribution of wealth or providing entitlements. It cost too much money and at the end of the day it is really nothing more than using the electorate process to steal from one group and give to another.

Socialism is the greedy using the government to steal. It is slavery to the state. It is economically destructive and only the very weak minded people embrace it.

[Robin Goodfellow]

Let me give you socialists a little lesson in real economic decision making freedom.

My son just got out of the military and is going to college. Because of his service he earned what is call the GI Bill, which is money from his previous employer (the federal government) to go to college.

The government agrees to pay tuition rates commensurate with the rates the state universities charge. If somebody wants to go to a private college where the rates are higher then he/she must make up the difference.

My son chose to go to a private university where the rates were about twice the state rate.

There is a nationwide private fund that has been established that give grants to combat veterans to make up the difference between state rates and private college rates. Because of that fund he has all his tuition covered.

Isn’t that a much better system than the government taxing people and providing the free education? In this case if you want to help a veteran then you contribute to the fund. If not you don’t. It is a well endowed fund so many people contribute and they do it out of love and respect for the veterans and not because the government is forcing them to do it. The government is not involved so it is not inefficient or influences by political correctness like insuring a certain racial mixture or something silly like that.

What we need to do is return the enormous amount of tax money to the people and let the people decide themselves if they want to give their money to somebody else as welfare payments. That is real freedom. The government needs to stay out of the business of redistribution of wealth or providing entitlements. It cost too much money and at the end of the day it is really nothing more than using the electorate process to steal from one group and give to another.

Socialism is the greedy using the government to steal. It is slavery to the state. It is economically destructive and only the very weak minded people embrace it.

No flash, everything you have just mention is a socialist ideal. The idea of a government rewarding people for service towards their society is about as socialist as you can get. So the question has to be asked are you in fact a closet Socialist?

[flash]

No flash, everything you have just mention is a socialist ideal. The idea of a government rewarding people for service towards their society is about as socialist as you can get. So the question has to be asked are you in fact a closet Socialist?

I don't think so.

The GI Bill is not a reward. It was a condition of employment and a contractual arrangement. It was in his enlistment contract. My son earned that money as did other veterans. It was deferred compensation for the hard job he did. He earned that money by performing a job that other people did not chose to do.

If it was a draftee army then you could probably could look at it as a reward but in all volunteer professional force it is a condition of employment.

It was no different than the money I received for graduate school. At the time my private employer reimbursed my cost of tuition as a condition of employment.

He actually didn't need the GI Bill because my wife and I had saved up eough money for him to go to college. Because he earned the money for college through other means he has that money availible to buy a home.

[BarbaraP]

I don't think so.

The GI Bill is not a reward. It was a condition of employment and a contractual arrangement. It was in his enlistment contract. My son earned that money as did other veterans. It was deferred compensation for the hard job he did. He earned that money by performing a job that other people did not chose to do.

If it was a draftee army then you could probably could look at it as a reward but in all volunteer professional force it is a condition of employment.

It was no different than the money I received for graduate school. At the time my private employer reimbursed my cost of tuition as a condition of employment.

He actually didn't need the GI Bill because my wife and I had saved up eough money for him to go to college. Because he earned the money for college through other means he has that money availible to buy a home.

It most certainly is a reward. A thank you from the government for serving. And I hope you thanked the Democrats who pushed hard for a generous GI bill, unlike the GOP, who have always been miserly when it comes to the funding for the soldiers. Particularly, I hope you thanked Senator Obama. The goopers are great at giving fat checks to the defense contractors who fill their election coffers, but cry poverty when it comes time for medical benefits, pay, and general benefits like the GI bill.

[flash]

It most certainly is a reward. .

In the draftee army of WWII the education package was an award but that is not the case in the all professional military of post Vietnam. Since then it has become part of the compensation package. In fact for a good portion of that time it was like a 401K in that it was matching funds by the soldiers. A solder earns his/her compensation just like anyone else.

[Don]

There is a nationwide private fund that has been established that give grants to combat veterans to make up the difference between state rates and private college rates. Because of that fund he has all his tuition covered

flash, would you be so kind as to PM me with information on this fund; I was unaware of it. I'd like to contribute.

[Don]

In the draftee army of WWII the education package was an award but that is not the case in the all professional military of post Vietnam. Since then it has become part of the compensation package. In fact for a good portion of that time it was like a 401K in that it was matching funds by the soldiers. A solder earns his/her compensation just like anyone else.

I think you two are arguing semantics. The G.I. Bill, in it's various forms, has always been a reward. For the volunteer it was, and is, a reward offered as an incentive to enlistment, payable at the end of honorable service. To the draftee it was a reward for honorable service rendered, albeit not voluntarily. That said, it was/is a contractual obligation (it's called an enlistment contract) on the part of the government. Just because something is a reward doesn't prohibit it from being written into a contract.

[flash]

flash, would you be so kind as to PM me with information on this fund; I was unaware of it. I'd like to contribute.

My son found out about it through his school. I really don't know much about it. I had never heard of it until he told me. I will be seeing him next week because we are going to visit and I will ask him.