What are the real issues??

[Tete123]

A worrying trend is setting in to the political landscape and as far as I am aware is being missed by the mainstream media and public alike; that is the main party machines (Labour, Conservatives and Lib Dems) are no longer putting forward a constructive policy agenda for either the local, national or European elections.

Instead we are seeing the narrow issue of MPs expenses being espoused at every opportunity - The thinking it seems is whoever puts forward the most radical or clearest agenda in combatting the culture of greed and abuse of parliamentary expenses, as well as constitutional reforms will achieve the best results, this seems a flawed logic to me.

What about Education, Crime, Health and the Economy (unemployment). These are the real issues that need addressing. The fact that this country will be saddled with over £1 trillion of debt seems a little more pressing that David Cameron claiming £650 for clearing Wisteria or MPs claiming £24,000 for a home they don't own. I understand public concern but things need to be put in perspective.

The Kelly Commission will report back its findings and hopefully (and most likely) Parliament will not oppose any of the measures proposed. This Parliament does not have the moral authority to make any constitutional alterations without taking them to the British public by way of referendum, and I am dubious about the nature of knee jerk policy proposals in reaction to the recent revelations.

As well as this I am tired of hearing why I should not vote for the BNP or UKIP, I want to know why I SHOULD vote for Labour or the Conservatives. Love them or hate them, the BNP and UKIP are putting forward policy and the main parties are acting like those in the minority, this needs to change.

I see no way better way to deal with the malaise in Parliament than to take it to the people and call a General Election so that after the summer recess, a new Parliament sits and takes the Country forward, with a view to combatting real issues.

I know this is just my little rant, interested to hear what others think.

[DTE]

Interesting stuff Tete. The expenses story is overshadowing the euro elections to the point where I doubt much of the country are actually aware of when they are. Nu Labour signaled the death of idealogy for me, the focus moved onto to spin, marketing and ensuring re-election at whatever the cost. So this is where I accept that the smaller parties you mention (like the BNP) have a certain advantage, because wrong as they are, at least they present their policies as some form of solution. Its difficult to remember a time where Brown has offered a solution to a particular problem, he prefers instead to announce an enquiry, or there's the other instances where he just gets pestered repeatedly until he backs down (like we've seen recently with the Gurkhas).

Other policies brought forth by the Labour govenment, are more often than not smuggled out of Westminster, and only come to light afterwards, when a Newspaper or test case brings it to the public's attention. I would offer the increased spying rights of local councils, and the expanded powers of the police under anti-terror laws as examples of this. In short, it seems the days of clear, concise policy agenda (at least by the sitting government) have gone, and I don't think the next parliament, which will almost certainly be Conservative, will be any different.

[Expounder]

Interesting stuff Tete. The expenses story is overshadowing the euro elections to the point where I doubt much of the country are actually aware of when they are. Nu Labour signaled the death of idealogy for me, the focus moved onto to spin, marketing and ensuring re-election at whatever the cost. So this is where I accept that the smaller parties you mention (like the BNP) have a certain advantage, because wrong as they are, at least they present their policies as some form of solution. Its difficult to remember a time where Brown has offered a solution to a particular problem, he prefers instead to announce an enquiry, or there's the other instances where he just gets pestered repeatedly until he backs down (like we've seen recently with the Gurkhas).

I wonder if it could be the final solution in the case of the BNP. Read the link below.

Other policies brought forth by the Labour govenment, are more often than not smuggled out of Westminster, and only come to light afterwards, when a Newspaper or test case brings it to the public's attention. I would offer the increased spying rights of local councils, and the expanded powers of the police under anti-terror laws as examples of this. In short, it seems the days of clear, concise policy agenda (at least by the sitting government) have gone, and I don't think the next parliament, which

Easy to critisise when we have suffered one murderous terrorist attack and thwarted others.

If you were in the Prime Minister's shoes how would you appoach the problem of terrorism? We are in a situation we have never witnessed before we're in unchartered waters. It could be an overkill in prevention, or it might not be enough. Armchair theorists really amuse me.


Exposed: ugly face of BNP's leaders | Politics | The Observer

[Tete123]

Easy to critisise when we have suffered one murderous terrorist attack and thwarted others.

If you were in the Prime Minister's shoes how would you appoach the problem of terrorism? We are in a situation we have never witnessed before we're in unchartered waters. It could be an overkill in prevention, or it might not be enough. Armchair theorists really amuse me.


Exposed: ugly face of BNP's leaders | Politics | The Observer

Okay so here is the problem I have with this view Exp; In the US the Right Wing Republican President Bush and Neo Conservatism is viewed as Facistic due in large part to their Military Interventionalism and restriction to civil liberties (Patriot Act) in their supposed fight against international (read Islamic Terrorism). Yet you support the completely non Facistic British (left wing haha!) Labour Party in their endeavours to combat terrorism.

The natural argument from Labour (and I have posted about the appeal to fear already) is that ID Cards are required in the fight when most evidence suggests that they would be ineffective, that anti-terror laws are required to prevent another attack when in reality they are being used to 'fine' people for putting out their rubish in the wrong sack and various other measures that break with traditional British civil liberties will all make us safer - it's all a load of tosh!

The left are famous for their stirring rhetoric such as "we're living in unprecedented times", "these are situations never before witnessed" and "unchartered waters" when the reality again belies the truth; Irish Republicanism was every bit as dangerous to British Society as Islamic terrorism. This is not exactly the worst economic situation the world has faced (although in time it might be) and in large part we are using methods that have proven ineffective in combatting recession. As you constantly no doubt point out the 80's economic climate was worse, with higher unemployment and that was the fault of the Tories was it not? Yet you fail to blame Brown and instead attempt to place the blame not on his tenure as Chancellor but instead on the American sub-prime sector, and even the culture of greed created during the Thatcher regime - and here I was thinking Socialism has been fighting against greedy capitalists for close to a century!!! Why don't you actually stop the spin and deflection and just admit, that while politics in general is damaged in this country the Labour Party have played a massive hand in making it so.

[DTE]

I was going to counter your points Expounder, but Tete has done it both before me and (probably) better than I would have. As amusing as you find armchair theorists, I find blind devotion to a government who chip away our rights under the guise of protecting us, and use a policy of fear to keep us all in place, a far funnier concept.

[Expounder]

Good link, mind if I make it a thread in the BNP forum?

Sorry I'm a bit late MN but please go ahead

[Expounder]

Okay so here is the problem I have with this view Exp; In the US the Right Wing Republican President Bush and Neo Conservatism is viewed as Facistic due in large part to their Military Interventionalism and restriction to civil liberties (Patriot Act) in their supposed fight against international (read Islamic Terrorism). Yet you support the completely non Facistic British (left wing haha!) Labour Party in their endeavours to combat terrorism.

The natural argument from Labour (and I have posted about the appeal to fear already) is that ID Cards are required in the fight when most evidence suggests that they would be ineffective, that anti-terror laws are required to prevent another attack when in reality they are being used to 'fine' people for putting out their rubish in the wrong sack and various other measures that break with traditional British civil liberties will all make us safer - it's all a load of tosh!

The left are famous for their stirring rhetoric such as "we're living in unprecedented times", "these are situations never before witnessed" and "unchartered waters" when the reality again belies the truth; Irish Republicanism was every bit as dangerous to British Society as Islamic terrorism. This is not exactly the worst economic situation the world has faced (although in time it might be) and in large part we are using methods that have proven ineffective in combatting recession. As you constantly no doubt point out the 80's economic climate was worse, with higher unemployment and that was the fault of the Tories was it not? Yet you fail to blame Brown and instead attempt to place the blame not on his tenure as Chancellor but instead on the American sub-prime sector, and even the culture of greed created during the Thatcher regime - and here I was thinking Socialism has been fighting against greedy capitalists for close to a century!!! Why don't you actually stop the spin and deflection and just admit, that while politics in general is damaged in this country the Labour Party have played a massive hand in making it so.

You must realise Tete, I am partisan, I had hoped I would never see another Tory government in my lifetime I regard them as my real enemy after having lived through more than one Tory government.

I lived through the war and carried an ID card for that period so I suppose my attitude to ID cards is different to younger people.I understand many countries on the continent request their citizens to carry ID I'm not sure Smilies how many, but I don't hear of any major unrest to get rid of
them. I doesn't bother me either way, while it would be nice to be living in a world that existed before the internet, the clock can't be turned back.
Blame technology even neighbour is using it against neighbour to settle disputes. The world as we used to know it doesn't exist any more. It's all cyber space, the monster has taken over, even governments are becoming almost powerless against this advance.

It won't be long before the world is just one gigantic dustbin due to the throw away society of unbridled capitalism which is squandering precious irreplaceable resources. I feel sorry for our grand children and future generations who's lives will be affected.

The world financial crisis was caused by the American Sub Prime mortgage scam from which Britain suffered was brought about by gullible greedy British bankers who thought they were on a good thing but bought a pig in a poke. To deny this is being ridiculous, as it wasn't just Britain that fell for the scam but virtually every country in the world.

Even banks in Germany with a strong industrialized economy bought into the scam. Germany's Economic Minister Harald Wolf said Quote: "Our banking system is so full of toxic assets it's far too soon to talk of any recovery". read the link .So there you have it, a country expected to ride our this crisis, is in the same boat as us because of their banker's greed, so don't try piling the brown stuff on Labour if you forgive the pun.

Why the wheels fell off Germany's economic model | Business | The Observer

As to methods used by local councils employing anti terror regulations to spy on people I would remind you that Labour controls very few councils and after June the 4th probably none. So any spying carried out, is being done so in the main by Tory councils who seem very keen to utilise locally, methods that are intended to be used nationally. They don't have to use these powers but there you have the duplicity of the Tory party, who rail against them at national level but use them with zeal at the local level.

[Tete123]

You must realise Tete, I am partisan, I had hoped I would never see another Tory government in my lifetime I regard them as my real enemy after having lived through more than one Tory government. .

Well I guess the inevitability of a Labour Government is that a Conservative one will follow. Maybe if that lovely left wing, socialist (haha!!) party of yours had done a better job then this conversation might be very different. I would like to ask... how can you be partisan to a party that is in no way representative of the party you supported and belonged to in the 50's and 60's when it was socialist in all aspects, not just its methods of control (Totalitarianism)

I lived through the war and carried an ID card for that period so I suppose my attitude to ID cards is different to younger people.I understand many countries on the continent request their citizens to carry ID I'm not sure Smilies how many, but I don't hear of any major unrest to get rid of
them. I doesn't bother me either way, while it would be nice to be living in a world that existed before the internet, the clock can't be turned back.
Blame technology even neighbour is using it against neighbour to settle disputes. The world as we used to know it doesn't exist any more. It's all cyber space, the monster has taken over, even governments are becoming almost powerless against this advance. .

What other nations chose to accept is their perogative, with many of them falling foul of totalitarian regimes in the recent past, they may not be the best guide as to what does and does not constitute civil liberties. I would accept ID Cards if we were in a genuine war situation, the identification of persons is essential when planning and co-ordinating a war effort; but to create the perception of war - i.e War on Terror to push through ever greater state intrusion and control via anti-terror laws and measures is quite frankly worrying. As I said previously, yes the world is changing but the "we're living in unprecedented times" rhetoric, made famous by the left to control and manipulate society is no less than totalitarianism - albeit with a friendly face!

You are arguing from the exact same emotive place as the BNP - in that you create the world as dangerous and progress as bad (strange it is the Tories who are usually accused of this) Yes the freedoms afforded by the web and other technological advances bring to the fore some increased dangers, but what is the point in this freedom, if the state stiffles it in an over protective manner - do you honestly think the Government can protect you?

It won't be long before the world is just one gigantic dustbin due to the throw away society of unbridled capitalism which is squandering precious irreplaceable resources. I feel sorry for our grand children and future generations who's lives will be affected. .

Consumerism probably has gone too far, but there is that dragon again - capitalism. Have you not realised that there is no viable alternative system?

The world financial crisis was caused by the American Sub Prime mortgage scam from which Britain suffered was brought about by gullible greedy British bankers who thought they were on a good thing but bought a pig in a poke. To deny this is being ridiculous, as it wasn't just Britain that fell for the scam but virtually every country in the world. .

And most international economists and agencies have spoken out to say that not only were we especially poorly placed to deal with the fall out from the US sub prime crash, but the measure we are taking to combat it are ineffective and thus we'll suffer more than most. Gordon Brown was chancellor for 10 years, he could have planned for these times! He could have put in place a proper financial regulatory system, one that didn't stiffle the economy but did at least have an aspect of understanding our economic situation. Instead Brown got caught up in his socialistic nature of throwing good money after bad at public services and look were we're at now.

Even banks in Germany with a strong industrialized economy bought into the scam. Germany's Economic Minister Harald Wolf said Quote: "Our banking system is so full of toxic assets it's far too soon to talk of any recovery". read the link .So there you have it, a country expected to ride our this crisis, is in the same boat as us because of their banker's greed, so don't try piling the brown stuff on Labour if you forgive the pun. .

Will they have £1.2 trillion worth of national debt after the recession? I doubt it. I accept you being partisan, but when I see you blame the 80's recession on Conservatism when they were attempting to resolve the issues of the late 70's, but then go on and not place any blame on the incumbent Labour Government for todays recession I feel you are taking your partisanship too far.

As to methods used by local councils employing anti terror regulations to spy on people I would remind you that Labour controls very few councils and after June the 4th probably none. So any spying carried out, is being done so in the main by Tory councils who seem very keen to utilise locally, methods that are intended to be used nationally. They don't have to use these powers but there you have the duplicity of the Tory party, who rail against them at national level but use them with zeal at the local level.

Come on Exp, we all know that Labour have centralised power and local councils are held to account by rafts of regulation passed down from Westminster. This is a clever, but transparent argument - blame the Tory councils when they have no real control over what they do.

[Expounder]

Well I guess the inevitability of a Labour Government is that a Conservative one will follow. Maybe if that lovely left wing, socialist (haha!!) party of yours had done a better job then this conversation might be very different. I would like to ask... how can you be partisan to a party that is in no way representative of the party you supported and belonged to in the 50's and 60's when it was socialist in all aspects, not just its methods of control (Totalitarianism)

Socialist in all aspects but but hog tied no chance of implementing any of their policies. Tories equating Labour+nationalisation = Communism a Tory cold war mantra.

Beating the miners into submission with a para military police force = totalitarianism.

What other nations chose to accept is their prerogative, with many of them falling foul of totalitarian regimes in the recent past, they may not be the best guide as to what does and does not constitute civil liberties. I would accept ID Cards if we were in a genuine war situation, the identification of persons is essential when planning and co-ordinating a war effort; but to create the perception of war - i.e War on Terror to push through ever greater state intrusion and control via anti-terror laws and measures is quite frankly worrying. As I said previously, yes the world is changing but the "we're living in unprecedented times" rhetoric, made famous by the left to control and manipulate society is no less than totalitarianism - albeit with a friendly face!

Continental countries whose citizens carry ID cards are democratic. They don't seem to have a problem. Probably not as emotive as you.

You are arguing from the exact same emotive place as the BNP - in that you create the world as dangerous and progress as bad (strange it is the Tories who are usually accused of this) Yes the freedoms afforded by the web and other technological advances bring to the fore some increased dangers, but what is the point in this freedom, if the state stiffles it in an over protective manner - do you honestly think the Government can protect you?

The web has two assets one is useful and the other evil. The useful aspect will remain the same as today, the evil asset will increase to a point it could be considered a curse.

Consumerism probably has gone too far, but there is that dragon again - capitalism. Have you not realised that there is no viable alternative system?

International control by governments of the system controls the ones doing the damage don't want

And most international economists and agencies have spoken out to say that not only were we especially poorly placed to deal with the fall out from the US sub prime crash, but the measure we are taking to combat it are ineffective and thus we'll suffer more than most. Gordon Brown was chancellor for 10 years, he could have planned for these times! He could have put in place a proper financial regulatory system, one that didn't stifle the economy but did at least have an aspect of understanding our economic situation. Instead Brown got caught up in his socialistic nature of throwing good money after bad at public services and look were we're at now.

Another Tory mantra, even the countries "well placed to ride it out" have succumbed. All we get from Cameron is tighten the purse strings which would sink us even more into the mire.

Will they have £1.2 trillion worth of national debt after the recession? I doubt it. I accept you being partisan, but when I see you blame the 80's recession on Conservatism when they were attempting to resolve the issues of the late 70's, but then go on and not place any blame on the incumbent Labour Government for today's recession I feel you are taking your partisanship too far.

Oil and water, that's the comparison diametrically opposed to an elite which has remained the same in spite of all the utterances honest "call me Dave" Cameron the slight of hand magician

Come on Exp, we all know that Labour have centralised power and local councils are held to account by rafts of regulation passed down from Westminster. This is a clever, but transparent argument.

Councils have it within their power to use surveillance or not, and I can assure you they will use it in every form to get uniformity of response from people within their area. I know I live in a Tory dominated district who were one of the first to monitor rubbish collection by placing micro chips under the lids of bins. after public outrage they backed down.

The Tories councils would be first to use invasive sureillance if they thought it could save money. You see Tete it's money before so called principles.