Sir Edward and Joan Downes in suicide pact at Swiss clinic

Balthazar · 15-07-2009, 10:50 AM

What do people think about this? Sir Edward and Joan Downes fulfilled a suicide pact at a Swiss clinic. She had terminal cancer, he was old, frail and losing his eyesight and hearing, but was not terminally ill. They'd been together for 54 years. He's certain to have a large estate so his children - the appallingly named Caractacus and Boudicca - stand to make a pretty penny. The British police are investigating.

There's something that sticks in the throat about it. The press is full of stories about how "brave" and "in love" they were, but I associate suicide pacts with the more lunatic American churches. The old boy wasn't terminally ill. He was (presumably) full of grief at his wife's illness - they were very close and she had just weeks to live.

But it's precisely when you're highly emotional that you should NOT enter into a suicide pact or take any major decisions. I've worked in medical research ethics and the key consideration - which grew from legislation passed following the Nuremberg trials and Nazi attitudes to euthanasia and medical experiments on Jews in the camps - is informed consent. Almost by definition it's impossible to give informed consent when in an emotional state. Who knows what sort of pressure he was under to join his wife in a pact?

Then there's Britain's large, ageing population sitting on great piles of cash wrapped up in inflated house prices. The pensions industry's in chaos. It makes me nervous to see men in white coats helping rich oldies over the edge, particularly when they can't be got at by the British judicial system.

Sir Edward Downes travelled to the Dignitas clinic with his wife Joan, 74, last week, after she was told that she had terminal cancer. They were accompanied by their son and daughter, Caractacus and Boudicca. Sir Edward, 85, was frail but not dying. Police are investigating and will pass a file of evidence to prosecutors. Source

**Midas** · 15-07-2009, 11:12 AM

In principle I have no problem with anyone deciding to end their own life, but as you rightly point out, given that their state of mind is normal at the time that the decision is made and that there are no outside influences, especially from people who might stand to benefit from any inheritance. In many respects the discussions that we've had here on euthanasia parallel this to a large extent.

It's difficult to comment on the fact that there are cross-jurisdictional problems without knowing all the facts, but this is something, as with the euthanasia issue, which will need to be faced, and dealt with, as long as people who wish to terminate their own lives for what ever reason can't do so legally in the UK.

If a great deal more people, especially the elderly, thought ahead and used a combination of trusts and living wills, the difficulties, legally, financially and emotionally, of this whole scenario would be greatly eased.

**Timothy** · 15-07-2009, 03:03 PM

American churches and suicide pacts? Just what fantasy bubble do you inhabit?

No doubt this is an example of more British humor - of an exceptionally repellent, tasteless and offensive variety.

**Midas** · 15-07-2009, 03:11 PM

Originally Posted by Timothy

American churches and suicide pacts? Just what fantasy bubble do you inhabit?

No doubt this is an example of more British humor - of an exceptionally repellent, tasteless and offensive variety.

The point here is that over the years there have been a number of quite high profile suicide pacts amongst members of American religious sects. I don't think it was any more of a meaning to the comment than that; simply factual.

**Timothy** · 15-07-2009, 03:17 PM

Originally Posted by Midas

The point here is that over the years there have been a number of quite high profile suicide pacts amongst members of American religious sects. I don't think it was any more of a meaning to the comment than that; simply factual.

Indeed?

Many 'high profile suicide pacts' in American churches?

Fascinating.

This must have happened while I wasn't looking.

Please fill me in. I'm all ears......

**Midas** · 15-07-2009, 03:23 PM

Originally Posted by Timothy

Indeed?

Many 'high profile suicide pacts' in American churches?

Fascinating.

This must have happened while I wasn't looking.

Please fill me in. I'm all ears......

Yes indeed. I don't actually have the details to hand, and I've not got time to search for them right now - but I will - but it's quite factual. Whether the stories made their way into the US media or not I really couldn't say...... But if they didn't, it wouldn't be the first time that stories reported here of events within the US hadn't been given air time back over there!

**Timothy** · 15-07-2009, 03:30 PM

Originally Posted by Midas

Yes indeed. I don't actually have the details to hand, and I've not got time to search for them right now - but I will - but it's quite factual. Whether the stories made their way into the US media or not I really couldn't say...... But if they didn't, it wouldn't be the first time that stories reported here of events within the US hadn't been given air time back over there!

No doubt! There are all sorts of terrible things going on here that are hidden from Americans but that you are privy to. Of course, your hysterical tabloid 'newspapers' are notorious trash. I'm sure the editors lose sleep every night thinking up bizarre 'news items'.

Utterly ridiculous, and I think you know it. I had given you credit for a higher level of sophistication.

Hmmmm.....You might be a little more cautious before you hold forth on the innumerable evils of Americans.

Have your evidence ready first. Otherwise your 'comments' merely collapse into absurd slander.

**Midas** · 15-07-2009, 05:28 PM

Originally Posted by Timothy

... Utterly ridiculous, and I think you know it. I had given you credit for a higher level of sophistication.

[ ... ]

Have your evidence ready first. Otherwise your 'comments' merely collapse into absurd slander.

Just two of the well known American religious sect suicide pacts, but there are more, along with quite a number of others where the authorities found out and intervened before anyone died. But quite honestly I can't be bothered to do the searching for them just so that you can see your own history and not be so aggressively assertive that you, in common with so many Americans, are always right.

The People's Temple, 1978 - 914 died: 638 adults and 276 children
Branch Davidians, 1993 - around 80 died including 22 children

**Opinionated** · 15-07-2009, 05:30 PM

Originally Posted by Timothy

Indeed?

Many 'high profile suicide pacts' in American churches?

Fascinating.

This must have happened while I wasn't looking.

Please fill me in. I'm all ears......

I'm confused as to where that statement came from in the first place but reading between the lines I suppose Waco and the Davidians would be the most famous example.

**Timothy** · 15-07-2009, 05:42 PM

Originally Posted by Midas

Just two of the well known American religious sect suicide pacts, but there are more, along with quite a number of others where the authorities found out and intervened before anyone died. But quite honestly I can't be bothered to do the searching for them just so that you can see your own history and not be so aggressively assertive that you, in common with so many Americans, are always right.

The People's Temple, 1978 - 914 died: 638 adults and 276 children
Branch Davidians, 1993 - around 80 died including 22 children

These are references to two dreadful cults in the last thirty years that have no relation to ordinary American churches. It is hardly an illustration of a general trend in American church life.

And instead of acknowledging that you went way over the top with your offensive remarks, you merely add more obnoxious remarks about Americans directed personally at me.

You claim that you make business trips to the US. I find it hard to believe you carry on in this manner with business colleagues. Although I am beginning to understand why your anti-Americanism is so deeply rooted. It is evident that you create most of it yourself.

**Midas** · 15-07-2009, 05:48 PM

Originally Posted by Timothy

You claim that you make business trips to the US.

I claim; claim did I hear you say!! I'm sorry, but if you can't even believe a plain statement of fact, there's certainly no talking rationally with you about anything else!

**Timothy** · 15-07-2009, 05:59 PM

Originally Posted by Midas

I claim; claim did I hear you say!! I'm sorry, but if you can't even believe a plain statement of fact, there's certainly no talking rationally with you about anything else!

Shrewd move, pal - but I won't let you get away with it. That is American speech. The use of the word 'claim' is not questioning the validity of your statement. As I am on a British forum, I will use your terminology.

Now back to the comments. I responded to comments that were offensive and entirely uncalled for. Stop picking and choosing. Respond to the comments.

**JacquesMagique** · 15-07-2009, 07:06 PM

Originally Posted by Timothy

These are references to two dreadful cults in the last thirty years that have no relation to ordinary American churches. It is hardly an illustration of a general trend in American church life.

Yeah, hence why he said:

Originally Posted by Balthazar

but I associate suicide pacts with the more lunatic American churches.

Balthazar · 15-07-2009, 08:00 PM

Timothy! I thought we'd made peace? You're flying off the handle again, manipulating a thread about assisted suicide into a thread about you and your sensitivities concerning alleged anti-Americanism. You've got your own thread for that here:

http://www.politic.co.uk/united-stat...ericanism.html

**Timothy** · 15-07-2009, 08:13 PM

Originally Posted by Balthazar

Timothy! I thought we'd made peace? You're flying off the handle again, manipulating a thread about assisted suicide into a thread about you and your sensitivities concerning alleged anti-Americanism. You've got your own thread for that here:

http://www.politic.co.uk/united-stat...ericanism.html

Flying off the handle?

*chuckle*

No. These weird, creepy remarks about Americans show up out of nowhere, and they are always - without any exception - negative and in many cases just strange.

I am aware that anti-Americanism is a severe problem here, but this forum is filled with it.

It might be far easier to simply put a sign up saying 'Americans Not Welcome'. That way you can indulge in this rubbish without any interference.

**Timothy** · 15-07-2009, 08:15 PM

Originally Posted by JacquesMagique

Yeah, hence why he said:

It is nice that you are attempting to defend and protect your friend, but it doesn't work.

Nice try, though.

Balthazar · 15-07-2009, 09:10 PM

Originally Posted by Timothy

Flying off the handle?

*chuckle*

No. These weird, creepy remarks about Americans show up out of nowhere, and they are always - without any exception - negative and in many cases just strange.

I am aware that anti-Americanism is a severe problem here, but this forum is filled with it.

It might be far easier to simply put a sign up saying 'Americans Not Welcome'. That way you can indulge in this rubbish without any interference.

How about I remove the reference in the OP to "lunatic American churches"? Would you then allow this thread to progress - as a discussion on assisted suicide, not a discussion about you?

I'm very happy to talk about you. But not on every thread. It's possible to have too much of a good thing!

**Timothy** · 15-07-2009, 10:34 PM

Originally Posted by Balthazar

How about I remove the reference in the OP to "lunatic American churches"? Would you then allow this thread to progress - as a discussion on assisted suicide, not a discussion about you?

I'm very happy to talk about you. But not on every thread. It's possible to have too much of a good thing!

Very amusing - but of course your remarks misrepresent my comments completely.

At no time have I talked about my own views. I am mostly concerned with attempting to counter the irrelevant comments about Americans that appear in posts that have nothing to do with Americans.

So that is your responsibility - not mine.