This is a discussion on Antichrist To Visit Northern Ireland within the United Kingdom Politics & Political Forum forums, part of the United Kingdom Political Forums category; Time to stock up on garlic and stakes, time to lock your children indoors. Pope Scaryeyes is to visit Northern ...
MP
Time to stock up on garlic and stakes, time to lock your children indoors. Pope Scaryeyes is to visit Northern Ireland. God's rotwiler, the Lord Protector of paediophile priests, is to land in Noreniron next year.
Was it the greed? Was it the massive destruction of wildlife and the countryside? Was it the mass extermination of historical buildings planned and carried out through the NI Housing Executive? Was it the drunken youth?
What attracted this devil to come and put his seal on the moral disentegration of our land?....Nope, it was Gordon Brown trying to win the Catholic vote in the next election in the rest of the UK who invited the unholy spirit in.
MP
Yes, I think you are right. I wondered why Brown would play the RC card to try and get votes for the next general election. Considering the majority of his MPs are catholic and that his party relies on the RC church for many of its votes, this senario is one which many had expected.
Senior MP
Is it this monster Pope upside down cross - Google Search
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=tJJvF...layer_embedded# you will see others, especially one reported by CNN.
"If my sons did not want wars, there would be none." Gutle Schnaper, wife of Mayer Amschel Rothschild.
MP
No doubt, all the fish eaters will be getting excited about his visit. LOL
Is that true? I thought that Catholics tended to be much more conservative than the Baptists etc. Sure, the High Church-goers of the CoE are the bedrock upon which conservatism was founded, but Catholics tend to be pretty right wing, surely? Socially at least.Originally Posted by Borderscot
Yes, I think you are right. I wondered why Brown would play the RC card to try and get votes for the next general election. Considering the majority of his MPs are catholic and that his party relies on the RC church for many of its votes, this senario is one which many had expected.
MP
In my experience, the Labour Party is very RC. This is the case especially in Scotland. For years, Glasgow Cirt Council which has been Labour for 50 years at least had 80 Labour councillors, 78 of whom were RC. This is very common in the Central belt of Scotland. The RC church has always encouranged this because it gives it undue influence in things like education.
Christian Zionist
Well, Tony Blair went all Catholic on us not so long ago, when he gets to be unelected president of the EU http://www.getsmile.com/emoticons/sm.../aiw/vomit.gif he will be well placed to organise the one world religion. All this, after he has brokered 'peace' in the Middle East - (don't mention Nobel anyone please).
I won't be taking part!
MP
Gordon Brown is not the antichrist- he's not charismatic enough!
Senior MP
Explain this, Brown is bringing the Pope to the Occupied Six Counties because he wants to win Catholic votes in England, Scotland and Wales? Maybe I'm wrong but that's what it seems like you mean as Catholic votes in north-east Ireland will be going to SF, SDLP and some Unionist parties (in order of abundance).
Senior MP
Occupied 6 counties, hmmm, looks like the past 20 years has been lost on you then.
Senior MP
Not particularly Mr. Rippley, I just haven't fell for the bull of three serial liars, namely Blair, Ahern and Adams. All three men have been exposed since their peace keeping heroics. Don't get me wrong I am anti-violence, but there are other ways to oppose the establisment. A British occupation on Irish soil is still the reality of the situation. Adams and Ahern for their part have got a lot of Irish people to accept that as being ok, through spreading a good deal of false hope. Another flaw in the insurgency, that was the Troubles, was that the violence became so terrible that people would vote for anything to make it stop.......that's exactly what happened.
Senior MP
Dreadful all this democracy, you know where the majority in Northern Ireland wish for the province to remain British.......why, their democratic rights should be ignored and Northern Ireland given to the Republic, or do you consider the majority as constituting the "occupiers", are they "the establishment" and did they deserve the 30 years of murderous terrorism, sorry "insurgency" that saw 3,000 men women and children slaughtered at the hands of Marxist sectarian Republican scum who turned their backs on democracy, the rule of law, human rights and decency?
Senior MP
Are you having a laugh! How is it democracy to partition a country in a deliberate manner purely to create a majority in one of its regions? The Irish people voted at the start of the 20th century for independence, instead the grand empire couldn't accept the will of the people, so turned a minority into a majority for their own geo-political agenda. Ye obviously aren't taught how yer ruling authority stoked and flamed a sectarian conflict on this island for centuries for its own selfish gain. The establishment is Whitehall and the occupiers are the military and its various security agencies.
The Protestant population of this isle were the founding fathers of Irish republicanism. Sectarian outbursts and the militant Gaelic nationalism unfortunately discouraged a lot of Protestants away from the independence movement. As long as Britain, in its current form, is involved in something there will never be democracy, this is the country that is aiding the US in geo-political wars and invasions. How dare you talk so condescendingly of the situation here in Ireland. The past thirty years were terrible, and the couple of centuries before that were bloody awful too, why? Because Britain couldn't keep its greedy beak off this island. I suggest you read a book on the subject by Geoffrey Sloan The geopolitics of Anglo-Irish ... - Google Books
Senior MP
No.
When a sizeable minority, a majority in Ulster, reject membership of the Irish Free State and demand to remain part of the United Kingdom then is that not democracy? The 'grand empire' sought no doubt both to allow Northern protestants the right to self-determination and to prevent a likely civil war breaking out. The drawing of the boarders between Northern Ireland and the Free State was merely a practical measure recognising the cultural/religious/national divisions that existed at the time and nothing to do with any mythical "geo-political agenda".How is it democracy to partition a country in a deliberate manner purely to create a majority in one of its regions? The Irish people voted at the start of the 20th century for independence, instead the grand empire couldn't accept the will of the people, so turned a minority into a majority for their own geo-political agenda
That's your interpretation of events. The fundamental causes of the sectarian conflict is that some who inhabit the island of Ireland view themselves as Irish, others as British.Ye obviously aren't taught how yer ruling authority stoked and flamed a sectarian conflict on this island for centuries for its own selfish gain.
How can the British military and its various security agencies be occupiers in their own country - by the will of the people of Northern Ireland it is British? I imagine that if it weren't for Republican Terrorists there wouldn;t be quite as many solders and security types operating in the province.The establishment is Whitehall and the occupiers are the military and its various security agencies.
Some were, many more wished to remain British.The Protestant population of this isle were the founding fathers of Irish republicanism. Sectarian outbursts and the militant Gaelic nationalism unfortunately discouraged a lot of Protestants away from the independence movement
Hmmm, Northern Ireland has proportional representation, self-government exists and do so where the rights of the Republican minority are protected. All this in part negotiatedy by a British Government and yet you say there is no democracy....... True democracy exists in Ulster and does so only because the Irish Republican Terrorists gave up their campaign of murder, maiming and sectarian violance (the majority of the IRA/INLA's victims were Northern Irish protestants) and embraced democracy. The stuff about the geo-political wars and the US is regretably true but of no real relevance to Northern Ireland.As long as Britain, in its current form, is involved in something there will never be democracy, this is the country that is aiding the US in geo-political wars and invasions.
You shouldn't confuse condescension for the truth. I may not live in Ulster but the majority of my living relatives do and have had to endure the campaign of terrorist murders and bombings undertaken by Republicans; a campaign undertaken because some Marxist Republicans could not get their way through democractic means and sought to do so through fear, intimidation and murder.How dare you talk so condescendingly of the situation here in Ireland.
Then do something about it and don't vote for Mr Adams and his friends.The past thirty years were terrible,
Good to see you've moved that anti-British chip off your shoulder then; not everything bad that happened in or to Ireland was down to Britain.and the couple of centuries before that were bloody awful too, why? Because Britain couldn't keep its greedy beak off this island.
I suggest you read a book on the subject by Geoffrey Sloan The geopolitics of Anglo-Irish ... - Google Books
If but I had the time.
Senior MP
There is nothing mythical about the geo-political exploits of Britain in Ireland. Why was it necessary for Britain to colonise Ireland and in particular Ulster, Ireland a country of relatively small resources? Britain needed a population on the island that would stay loyal to the crown while an assendency ruled the country so that Ireland wouldn't be used as a back door for French or Spanish invasion into Britain. In more modern times partition came about after WW1 when Britains control of Ireland was a huge factor in themselves and America defeating the German navy. The ministry of defence advised after the war that it was crucial for Ireland never to gain full independence in case of another conflict. Why would Britain have cared about a civil war in Ireland when 50 years previously it let a million people starve to death? The 6 counties was kept under British control and sure enough the ministry's advise came true as Britains strategic hold in north east Ireland allowed American and British navies to win the battle of the Atlantic.
Just because they call it democracy doesn't make it so. Parlimentary democracy is a sham. Democracy is about people having the power. That is not the case at the moment where the political system has rendered many voters apathetic and the ones that do vote have the choice of one ideology. People are not being included in decesion making and one of the latest examples was Gordon Browns renege on a referendum on the EU. The people were made impotent, but that is just the tip of the ice-berg. If you notice, most of Americas waring exploits over the past 30 years, particularly in south and central America, have been for democracy, it's like some sort of buzzword and then immediately the opposition is classed as anti-democratic.
I don't have anything against the vast majority of people that live in Britain, it is its establishment I have a serious gripe with. And yes the Catholic church has also been a scourge on the country along with Irishmen who sold their own countrymen out for greed. But as with all small nations, the big boys (Britain and to a lesser extent Rome), change the rules to suit them. The Irish people are the only ones that should control their destiny, sovereignty should not be denied because of a minority. Would you support the right of self-determination of muslim communities in Yorkshire to form their own state? To me that is a breach of sovereignty.
And for the record I despise Gerry Adams and do not support Sinn Féin.
Senior MP
I fully agree with your analysis. There had been other minor issues created by Ireland's support for pretenders to the British Crown, but the major reason for Britain's involvement was that of self-protection and self-interest; Catholic France and Spain to the South, for a time Catholic Scotland to the North, England needed to prevent her enemies from using Ireland.
Why would Britain care? Because Britain would be dragged into such a war. As for the famine, I think you'll find that Irish landlords and politicians carry as much blame as English politicians.The ministry of defence advised after the war that it was crucial for Ireland never to gain full independence in case of another conflict. Why would Britain have cared about a civil war in Ireland when 50 years previously it let a million people starve to death? The 6 counties was kept under British control and sure enough the ministry's advise came true as Britains strategic hold in north east Ireland allowed American and British navies to win the battle of the Atlantic.
Parliamentary democracy is just one form of democracy and history has shown that it is as good as any other democratic system; that Northern Ireland has Google Page Ranking makes it even more democratic. If the people of Northern Ireland wanted Marxism, and boy that particular ideology has been such a success eslewhere, then they would vote for it: they haven't.Just because they call it democracy doesn't make it so. Parlimentary democracy is a sham. Democracy is about people having the power. That is not the case at the moment where the political system has rendered many voters apathetic and the ones that do vote have the choice of one ideology.
I agree with you on pretty much every point you have made, the problem I have is what is the alternative to democracy?People are not being included in decesion making and one of the latest examples was Gordon Browns renege on a referendum on the EU. The people were made impotent, but that is just the tip of the ice-berg. If you notice, most of Americas waring exploits over the past 30 years, particularly in south and central America, have been for democracy, it's like some sort of buzzword and then immediately the opposition is classed as anti-democratic.
The Irish people do control their destiny: both in the South and the North. Should Munster wish to withdraw from the Republic, would you allow them to exercise their self-determination? Why would you wish to deny the people of Northern Ireland their right to self-determination?I don't have anything against the vast majority of people that live in Britain, it is its establishment I have a serious gripe with. And yes the Catholic church has also been a scourge on the country along with Irishmen who sold their own countrymen out for greed. But as with all small nations, the big boys (Britain and to a lesser extent Rome), change the rules to suit them. The Irish people are the only ones that should control their destiny, sovereignty should not be denied because of a minority.
No I would not support it. Equally, had I been around in the 1920s I would have probably opposed partition, but partition is a fact and it is one that is supported by the majority in democratic Northern Ireland.Would you support the right of self-determination of muslim communities in Yorkshire to form their own state? To me that is a breach of sovereignty.
Is this because they renounced selfish violence for democracy or some other reason?And for the record I despise Gerry Adams and do not support Sinn Féin.
Senior MP
Yes an Irish landed elite were guilty and were also protected and propped up by crown forces. Who's to know, Marxism in its true form has rarely been allowed to be implemented. The USSR was effectively state capitalism, as is China. Cuba could have been different but for tremendous external pressures. The Sandinista movement in Nicaragua is a good example where the ideology looked like it could really have worked but Reagan helped put an end to that. I'm in favour of direct democracy of local community councils where the people have the power. This of course flies in the face of the system we have today because that system is there to benefit the most wealthy and corporations. The people having the power is terrifying for the world of big business. We might actually start participating and build real community spirit instead of being brainwashed by consumerism. This is one of the essential reasons why the people of Ireland need to be liberated from Britain, on all sides of the divide. Whatever chance that sort of idealism has in Irealnd as it stands, it has absolutley none while being influenced by British rule as Britain is part of the Anglo-American alliance of economic and political thought.
Munster seceding is a breach of sovereignty without the wishes of the entire nation. This would be different had Munster been invaded and brought under control by the rest of the country. The only ones that benefited from Irish partition were, initially Britain but after WW2 that soon changed, and the Catholic church, as it was pretty much given a free reign in the 26 counties, a reign I don't believe would have been possible had the state included a very large Protestant population in the north.
SF renounced violence for power. Why else would a deal that was on the table in the 1980's oppossed by the party, suddenly become acceptable 20 years later when they were basically guaranteed power. Adams was brokering peace in the late 80's while at the same time sending men out on missions. Also their abrupt change in ideology is the typical populist tripe from a power hungry organisation. SF are moving away from the left and that is why they are leaking local representatives like mad at present.
I think the extreme Gaelic nationalism that republicanism took on at the start of the 20th century allienated a huge number of Irish Protestants. I know there were other factors but many Ulster Protestants were terrified of a Gaelic-Catholic state which would ignore or over-run their own heritage. Republicanism (in its 20th century form) failed to address this early on and paid the price. Of course there were extreme Unionist elements that played this card to their advantge by further stoking up fear. The first republican movement had the support of most Catholics and Presbyterians and some Anglicans, only a hundred years later this had drastically changed.
I do accept that re-unification will only come about through peaceful means. That major fault in not addressing the needs of the Protestant population is still not being addressed in my book. I really think a lot from that community wish to remain inside the UK only because they feel completely alienated by the alternative. Most northern Protestants consider themselves Irish but not in the context that was created by Gaelic nationalism.
Senior MP
I agree with much that you write, however, I think in the age of global capitalism we are approaching the point where it is becoming irrelevant to a greater extent which country one is resident in. This, like global capitalism itself, is something to be regretted and resisted in equal measure, albeit it is better to live in a (controlled) capitalist democracy than a Marxist totalitarian state, in my view.
As for Northern Irish protestants, my relatives who view themselves as British and Northern Irish do not feel alienated / threatened by or from the South, they merely view the South as a separate country with separate traditions and they do not wish to be a part of it.
Senior MP
People that live in poverty in a capitalist "democracy" I don't think would find much difference in a Marxist totalitarian state, their lives are probably even more meaningless in the former. A huge proportion of US citizens live in poverty and in the UK that has been growing since Thatchers neo-liberalist policies were introduced.
I am only going by what people I met tell me. None are afraid of the 26 county state now but they still think it as a very Catholic run place. I was talking to a man of Unionist background who would be open to the idea of an all-island state but is reluctant on the grounds that his own traditions may be neglected. I also know of people who are of the view that should a border poll be passed in favour of re-unification Unionists that oppose it will still fight tooth and nail against, even if it means repartition.
Anyway my orginal point is I suppose that, although obviously people in the Unionist community now had no control over history, that still doesn't give them the right to dictate the terms of Irish sovereignty. As a minority they helped to force partition but yet the Nationalist minority now can't force re-unification. That is not self-determination, that is annexation in my book but obviously we are not going to agree on that.
From where in Ulster do your relatives hail?
Senior MP
....apart from they have a voice, they can vote out the ruling party.....
I suspect that if Northern Ireland joined Eire against the will of the Unionist community then "the troubles" would be viewed as a minor disagreement in comparision to the terrorist campaign that would be waged by the likes of the UFF and UVF; I doubt that the Republic's infrastructure or security services could cope with violence and the whole business would be a total disaster for both parts of Ireland and the UK as well. I don't believe it is simply a case of different traditions, the Unionists view themselves as British and the Republic as being a foreign state with which they have no connection other than physical proximity.I am only going by what people I met tell me. None are afraid of the 26 county state now but they still think it as a very Catholic run place. I was talking to a man of Unionist background who would be open to the idea of an all-island state but is reluctant on the grounds that his own traditions may be neglected. I also know of people who are of the view that should a border poll be passed in favour of re-unification Unionists that oppose it will still fight tooth and nail against, even if it means repartition.
Anyway my orginal point is I suppose that, although obviously people in the Unionist community now had no control over history, that still doesn't give them the right to dictate the terms of Irish sovereignty. As a minority they helped to force partition but yet the Nationalist minority now can't force re-unification. That is not self-determination, that is annexation in my book but obviously we are not going to agree on that.
Yet we do not consider the creation of Pakistan from within the boarders of Imperial India as constituting annexation......... Additionally, why should Ireland be one sovereign country against the wishes of the population in one particular area? why should the wishes and desires of those who do and did not reside within Ulster overrule the rights of self-determination of those who do?
Down, mainly around 'Ards. You and yours?From where in Ulster do your relatives hail?
Senior MP
I'm well aware, and the UK security forces have been more than generous with arming Loyalists in the past. A substantial section of the Unionist community are anti-republican violence, not anti-violence. I think Unionists from Down and Antrim are a lot more staunch from the ones I've met from Tyrone and Fermanagh. Also I think there is a urban-rural divide also, with urban areas also being more staunch.
I don't know the history of the region in depth but if Pakistan was a colonised part of India, then yes, it is annexation. Again, as much as it terrible situation to be torn between, that is not the fault of the people that view themselves as Irish, it's like the Irish decendants in Monserrat claiming self-determination in union with the present Irish state, or anywhere else that has a high population of Irish decendants.
I know a few from Bangor but not 'Ards. I live in Coleraine, originally hail from the windy West.
Senior MP
Perhaps some have, whilst peaceful freedom loving nations such as Libya supplied the IRA with the weapons and explosives that slaughtered men, women and children in Northern Ireland and the mainland.
And yet Unionists have never supported political parties that support violence in any meaningful numbers, unlike the Republican population who supported Mr Adams and his friends whilst the IRA conducted their campaign of murder. On this basis, the overwhelming majority of the Unionist community have a history of rejecting violence, unfortunately Northern Ireland's Nationalist/Republican community cannot claim the same.A substantial section of the Unionist community are anti-republican violence, not anti-violence.
Self-annexation or the the exercise of self-determination....I guess it depends on your point of view.I don't know the history of the region in depth but if Pakistan was a colonised part of India, then yes, it is annexation.
Never been to Coleraine, but I know Bangor fairly well - nice place to be on a dry sunny day (i.e. not often).I know a few from Bangor but not 'Ards. I live in Coleraine, originally hail from the windy West.
Senior MP
People vote and support those who they think are standing up for their community. The Loyalist groups were never really considered as saviours by their own community because the RUC and British army did that, both arms of the state were fully supported by the non-violent Unionist parties. On the otherhand, the militant republicans got their highest support when traditional parlimentarians seemed powerless in representing their communities. The Provo movement was initially re-active, not pro-active. Had the 26 county government had the balls to stand up and use every international forum to make their case against the British presence in the north and lend support (by that i mean financial assistance and other support services not weapons) to those aggrevied across the border then I think the IRA would have found it hard to survive. Instead they threw a handful of guns across the border and kept quiet.
Coleraine definitely would be far from my favourite spot in the world but the nice seaside town of Portstewart just up the road is well worth a visit. I have yet to make a trip to Down so maybe I'll wait until the nice summer weather comes to visit.
Senior MP
The CIA and MI5 have been running both sides since the early seventies or before. The omagh bomb exploded on saturday the 15th of august killing 29 people including some spanish tourists and a catholic lady with twins.
But what happened on the run up to this heanous attack?
The peace process was going well , the good friday agreement had been signed a few months before. Did dissidents want to ruin the peace or did the new world order want to maintain its security presence.
What is the significance of Omagh it is know to be of mixed religion hardly the place for a republican attack?
David rupert an american haulier had been a mole in the real IRA for the FBI for around three years , his emails warned of the omagh attack in april that was foiled by the guardai and his emails warned of the attack in omagh on saturday the 15th of august. This information must have been passed to MI5. Mr Rupert sent encrypted emails from the caravan park the FBI bought to use as his cover.
This was not the only warning Mi5 recieved. The armys FRU also had an informant (Kevin Fulton)and a handler for the FRU warned MI5 that he had seen dust from explosives oh his clothes (bomb making is messy business I would imagine).
Also on august the 4th the RUC recieved a call warning of an attack in omagh but they apparently dismissed it as an RUC special branch rouse (special branch is know for collusion and dodgy operations).
There was also a second phone call closer to the time that was ignored. This all though pales in comparison the the fact the FBI was watching the Maroon vauxhall with its spy satellite and tracking it via a gps bug planted on the car by an agent.
Also Mr Rupert was wisked out of Ireland by MI5 who feared he would be questioned by the Guardai who were reportedly looking for him in connection with the Omagh bomb. It looks like the RUC and the guardai didnt know what was to happen but the FBI/CIA and MI5 let it go ahead or even helped the perpetrators. Another false flag. www.infowars.com
Senior MP
sorry kevin fulton was the handler not the informant and he testified in court that he had seen this informant with fetilizer on his arms.
accidental genius!
OK I love a conspiracy as much (more probably) as the next guy, but you're beginning to get on my nerves now.
http://andrewbreitbartmallcop.files....n-foil-hat.jpg
"The object of universities is not to make skilful lawyers, physicians or engineers. It is to make capable and cultivated human beings." John Stewart Mill
Senior MP
Its all proven in court but I see you guys dont appreciate this work , I will desist and spend my energy more usefully.
Senior MP
There was still a lot of unease among republicans after the signing of the GFA. The Omagh bomb allowed the state's (UK, US and ROI) who were selling the GFA to label those against the GFA as supporting the bombers. There was no alternative according to the governments, black and white....either support the GFA or you're with the bombers. The result being that many republicans who were still very sceptical of the "peace agreement" went with the GFA.
It isn't that far fetched that the security agencies of the US and UK were working that close to each other. Both countries have been extremely close militarily since the two world wars. They are the leading NATO partners. The US was a huge driving force behind the GFA, an agreement which finally put an end to the question marks around their closest allies (UK) sovereignty claims over part of its neighbours (Ireland) territory.
Senior MP
Yeah the MI5 have been involved in the death of a man in londonderry too , stirring up bad blood and what not , protestant or catholic , even if you are a UVF blackneck you should see them as your enemy , they are murderers , who will kill for cheap political points and use threats and bribes to optain the sevices of hoods.
Look at the michael stone stormont incident , that was the biggest staged event ever , I don't know anyone who bought that. Michael Stone is a ruthless soldier he wouldnt do that , I rekon his family was threatened or summit. Sorry talkin about stuff from years ago again , but it all builds the big picture.
I think oul Mi5 and the cia are running the ex-ira dissidents , by the look of their weaponry , They used a barrat 50 cal to kill a policeman not long ago and the pointlessness of their mission , the ira doesnt leave bombs outside empty rural police stations , this is MI5 agents directing youths. The only thing that comes of this is a continuation of the police state hate network like they are trying to build in england with the pakistanis and english.
Another thing is the shotgun attack a few days ago , everyone knows mi5s boys fire shots above the heads of informed special branch police to provoke the other police and keep em in line they have been doing that for years.
The only answer is a northern Irish republic (the third way) with is own military and not in the EU , I know its unlikely but it is necessary for true peace. We could hone our ulster scots/irish identity and face the reality that we all came from the same hill dwellers in scotland and that we have interbreed so much as to not be pure scottish or irish anyway , can you be sure you dont have a catholic in your female ancestry? You dont know because they burnt the fecking records office didnt they.
Yeah he blabs about the MI5 approaching him and then he is killed by the Real Ira , an organisation know to be riddled with agents from Mi5 and cia
http://www.belfasttelegraph.co.uk/ne...-14700172.html
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