we are seen as idiots

[uncon]

we followed and sent out guys out to Iraq.

The US expected us to do that...little dogs that we are

Obama has seen that and he is rather busy...Brown can wait

It is time to look at the international situation in a way that doesn't kill our children for no result.

We need to talk, and Obama is talking and it is working

[Barry]

If Obama is talking and it is working, in what way is this dialogue working.
Is it working in Iran - where the nuclear and missile industry is working at full speed?
Is it working in Afghanistan where the death toll is rising?
Is it working in Pakistan where the country is virtually lawless and ungovernable?
Is it working in the USA where the country is still in deep recession and California is bankrupt?
Is it working in the middle East where all negotiations have stopped since Obama was elected?

Pray tell, where is Obama's talk working, except to show weakness to the world?

[The Untalented Mr Ripley]

If Obama is talking and it is working, in what way is this dialogue working.
Is it working in Iran - where the nuclear and missile industry is working at full speed?
Is it working in Afghanistan where the death toll is rising?
Is it working in Pakistan where the country is virtually lawless and ungovernable?
Is it working in the USA where the country is still in deep recession and California is bankrupt?
Is it working in the middle East where all negotiations have stopped since Obama was elected?

Pray tell, where is Obama's talk working, except to show weakness to the world?

Talking is way better than bombing, but in order to have meaningful negotiations the other side needs to know that plan B has very unpleasant consequences for them otherwise all that talk is empty rhetoric, something at which Mr Obama appears to excel.

In terms of where Obama's strategy is working, well, its helping the Israeli Government ethnically cleanse East Jerusalem and its helping the mad mullahs of Iran develop their atomic bomb.

[Don]

It is time to look at the international situation in a way that doesn't kill our children for no result.

Mind if I rephrase that to read; "It is time to look at the international situation in a way that doesn't kill our children." ?

It suits my developing sensibilities a mite better darling.

[Scooby]

of course we are seen as idiots, we gave up a basic British military principle. of planning for peace as we plan for war, and followed the US version of war first and then leave to everyone else to sort the peace(the difficult bit).
Across the channel in europe we are laughed at not because we don't have the Euro, but because our government fold and suck the Euro big one when told to, we are the net largest contributor and we are treated like a leper because we don't agree with France and Germany's view for an overarching euro state, we should tell both the EU and the Americans to get ****ed, withdraw from all overseas military adventures and let the Euro cowards take up the slack, then withdraw form Europe and see how they like not having their hands in our pockets and how long the EU actually goes on without it's cash cow, see how long it takes for them to come crawling back, no cash to give away will lead to the smaller countries realising that they are in for some big bills, to keep French farmers in the subsidies they are used to.

[uncon]

Oh come on Barry...you believe that years of fighting is better than a year of talking to deal with decades of dispute between other countries? Why not endorse as many years of talking as years of fighting in the past?

[uncon]

There is an old poster that says here that loose talk costs lives from the Second World war. Smart talk can save lives and you have the man to do it

[Don]

Oh come on Barry...you believe that years of fighting is better than a year of talking to deal with decades of dispute between other countries? Why not endorse as many years of talking as years of fighting in the past?

I do much prefer words to bullets, as you well know. My fear is that we, all of us, have gone too far down the road of 'bullets' to turn back. Unless all sides are willing to give talking a try, and I pray for it, it will come to naught. Getting all sides to lay down their weapons, sit down and talk is akin to attempting to herd cats. Still, it appears to have worked, somewhat, in N.I., so there is hope.

The phrase; 'trust but verify' comes to mind. That and it's very hard to be the first to lay down your weapons.

This just in, I note that even Obama, yesterday finally said it; "We are at war." Does not bode well for talk.

[uncon]

I do much prefer words to bullets, as you well know. My fear is that we, all of us, have gone too far down the road of 'bullets' to turn back. Unless all sides are willing to give talking a try, and I pray for it, it will come to naught. Getting all sides to lay down their weapons, sit down and talk is akin to attempting to herd cats. Still, it appears to have worked, somewhat, in N.I., so there is hope.

The phrase; 'trust but verify' comes to mind. That and it's very hard to be the first to lay down your weapons.

This just in, I note that even Obama, yesterday finally said it; "We are at war." Does not bode well for talk.

sadly I do believe that previous policy has resulted in a position where we are forced to fight rather than talk. It becomes an 'if only' situation. The only blessing is that there is a leader that is willing to understand that troops can be pulled out before the country becomes another little america...vive la difference and all that

[Don]

sadly I do believe that previous policy has resulted in a position where we are forced to fight rather than talk. It becomes an 'if only' situation. The only blessing is that there is a leader that is willing to understand that troops can be pulled out before the country becomes another little america...vive la difference and all that

In fairness I have to correct my statement. It appears that Obama actually said we are at war with Al-Qaeda and did not say with Muslim terrorists, which is good to my mind. I hate 'if only s' I've found them to invariably be heart breakers, I know.

[uncon]

In fairness I have to correct my statement. It appears that Obama actually said we are at war with Al-Qaeda and did not say with Muslim terrorists, which is good to my mind. I hate 'if only s' I've found them to invariably be heart breakers, I know.

apparently, in a time of huge joblosses the new policy is to pay....we pay moderate taliban to turn.

I'm taliban and so are my kids and family....pay me not to kill you

[uncon]

I also have a theory with regard to suicide bombers....let it be known that they will be collected and buried as christians

[Don]

I also have a theory with regard to suicide bombers....let it be known that they will be collected and buried as christians

ha ha! Probably a worse fate than being buried with a pig.

[uncon]

of course we are seen as idiots, we gave up a basic British military principle. of planning for peace as we plan for war, and followed the US version of war first and then leave to everyone else to sort the peace(the difficult bit).
Across the channel in europe we are laughed at not because we don't have the Euro, but because our government fold and suck the Euro big one when told to, we are the net largest contributor and we are treated like a leper because we don't agree with France and Germany's view for an overarching euro state, we should tell both the EU and the Americans to get ****ed, withdraw from all overseas military adventures and let the Euro cowards take up the slack, then withdraw form Europe and see how they like not having their hands in our pockets and how long the EU actually goes on without it's cash cow, see how long it takes for them to come crawling back, no cash to give away will lead to the smaller countries realising that they are in for some big bills, to keep French farmers in the subsidies they are used to.

will afganistan deny you milk or
food?

[uncon]

ha ha! Probably a worse fate than being buried with a pig.

Sometimes people are no less than a pig....and sometimes less than (fewer exist)

[Don]

...we pay moderate taliban to turn.

Anyone who would change sides for money is less trust worthy than one who sticks it out.

I'm taliban and so are my kids and family....pay me not to kill you

You're welcome to try sweetheart. Hence forth I'll go around like Inspector Clouseau expecting to be jumped by his manservant at any moment.

[LA]

Anyone who would change sides for money is less trust worthy than one who sticks it out.

The view is that there are members of the Taliban or Al-Qaeda who have joined merely to sustain a living, much like youths in African rebel gangs. The idea is that if money and food if their prime motivator then we can sway them to our side.

[uncon]

like me!

I have recently joined the Taleban and am looking forward to recieving my cheque unlike my neighbour who will starve due to her honesty

[Hadrian]

Dead Western soldiers and Afghan civilians are ten-a-penny.Still,Iran next (if the printing presses can hold the "economy" up till then LOL).

[Don]

The view is that there are members of the Taliban or Al-Qaeda who have joined merely to sustain a living, much like youths in African rebel gangs. The idea is that if money and food if their prime motivator then we can sway them to our side.

Note that many. if not most, of those "youths in African 'rebel gangs'" are not there of their own free will. They were given a choice of join and fight or die, and indoctrinated with drugs and violence. That is a great motivator, but money had nothing to do with it.

Read this post for the take of a retired Pakistani Col. with ties to the Taliban on the idea of paying them to switch sides:

"He also said the idea of paying members of the Taliban to change sides would not work and only bogus figures would come forward. “It is shameful for a superpower to bribe,” he said."

http://www.politic.co.uk/war-terror/...tml#post100712

[Don]

Dead Western soldiers and Afghan civilians are ten-a-penny.Still,Iran next (if the printing presses can hold the "economy" up till then LOL).

To paraphrase the Mexican bandit in "Treasure of the Sierra Madre"; 'we don't need no steenking printing presses'. All we have to do is push a few keys and voila, more money

[Jim Franklin]

Pussy Foot Pussy Foot all around....but the dead still silent lay on the ground

It is about time we stopped being liberal understanding pussies and dealt a devastating blow to the Islamic world. I am sorry to have to say that the overwhelming majority of Muslims support the Terror groups simply by not speaking out against them I know some have, and some have paid with their lives, but that changes nothing. Did we decide dialogue was best when dealing with Hitler, we knew there was a large resistance movement in Germany, but ignored it for the most part as it held no sway. The same is true now.

The Insurgents, Al Qaeda and all the other groups listen to no-one except the clerics and the Iranian Regime, we need to deal these a blow from which they cannot recover. The simple way to do this and avoid a very serious conflict is to use smoke and mirrors. An attack on Mecca would be devastating to the Islamic world, but even more so if it appeared that Terrorists had desecrated the place in order to build a bomb to attack western targets, and it went off in Mecca and thus only killed Muslims.

Such an event would shift the balance of direct, indirect and tacit support for these groups. Iran would have to condemn them or risk being alienated and implicated in the attack. The more moderate in the groups would be forced to look at alternatives or risk being tarnished with the same brush, and anyone involved in such an event would be marked for death by the Islamic world.

Such an event is abhorrent to contemplate, but things have gone too far. Tens and hundreds of thousands have now died as a result of this male genitals from the extremists and sadly the only two ways to deal with them is what I have said above, or simply a full blown declaration of war against many of the Mid East Nations and a full nuclear attack to end it quickly and decisively. The last option is no option and would simply make a bad situation worse.

Hit them were it hurts...

[Don]

Pussy Foot Pussy Foot all around....but the dead still silent lay on the ground...

The Insurgents, Al Qaeda and all the other groups listen to no-one except the clerics and the Iranian Regime, we need to deal these a blow from which they cannot recover. The simple way to do this and avoid a very serious conflict is to use smoke and mirrors. An attack on Mecca would be devastating to the Islamic world, but even more so if it appeared that Terrorists had desecrated the place in order to build a bomb to attack western targets, and it went off in Mecca and thus only killed Muslims....

While not advocating this course of action, it does remind me of my idea of getting rid of the Ayatollah Khomeini by making it appear as a violent act of God. Perhaps a lighting bolt from the blue while he stood on the podium promising death to the 'Great Satan'. I wasn't always so easy going and fed up with blood and death, as you can see.

[Kiwi 1691]

Pussy Foot Pussy Foot all around....but the dead still silent lay on the ground

It is about time we stopped being liberal understanding pussies and dealt a devastating blow to the Islamic world. I am sorry to have to say that the overwhelming majority of Muslims support the Terror groups simply by not speaking out against them I know some have, and some have paid with their lives, but that changes nothing. Did we decide dialogue was best when dealing with Hitler, we knew there was a large resistance movement in Germany, but ignored it for the most part as it held no sway. The same is true now.

You are a vile disgusting Bigot. So does that make all Christians satan because they ignore all the massacres by Christians?

The Insurgents, Al Qaeda and all the other groups listen to no-one except the clerics and the Iranian Regime, we need to deal these a blow from which they cannot recover. The simple way to do this and avoid a very serious conflict is to use smoke and mirrors. An attack on Mecca would be devastating to the Islamic world, but even more so if it appeared that Terrorists had desecrated the place in order to build a bomb to attack western targets, and it went off in Mecca and thus only killed Muslims.

You'd love that, I can imagine you siiting there smiling with glee as the masses were slaughted by a shady western govt.

Such an event would shift the balance of direct, indirect and tacit support for these groups. Iran would have to condemn them or risk being alienated and implicated in the attack. The more moderate in the groups would be forced to look at alternatives or risk being tarnished with the same brush, and anyone involved in such an event would be marked for death by the Islamic world.

Such an event is abhorrent to contemplate, but things have gone too far. Tens and hundreds of thousands have now died as a result of this male genitals from the extremists

The extremists are killing people with their genitals???????

and sadly the only two ways to deal with them is what I have said above, or simply a full blown declaration of war against many of the Mid East Nations and a full nuclear attack to end it quickly and decisively. The last option is no option and would simply make a bad situation worse.

Hit them were it hurts...

You are a
sadistic bigot. Why don't you engage your brain and think instead of just talk of mass murder. A few Muslims hate the west, now I know to you the automatic action is to kill them all.

Why don't you look at it this way, the west has been screwing over the people in the middle east for along time. Your own country Britain screwed over the people of the middle east alot. Everyday the people of Palestine are murdered by Israel with full backing of the USA and the UK.

Now if the west stopped screwing over and killing the people of the middle east, possibly the extremist may find it harder to find favour among the populace.

I find it odd that you target extremist Islam, but forget extremist Christianity and Judaism. They also kill alot of people but because they aren't Muslims no-one cares.

[Kiwi 1691]

While not advocating this course of action, it does remind me of my idea of getting rid of the Ayatollah Khomeini by making it appear as a violent act of God. Perhaps a lighting bolt from the blue while he stood on the podium promising death to the 'Great Satan'. I wasn't always so easy going and fed up with blood and death, as you can see.

One of the weird military actions dreamed up by the Pentagon, like the Gay bomb?

http://www.marksimpson.com/blog/wp-c...ds/gaybomb.jpg

[Don]

One of the weird military actions dreamed up by the Pentagon, like the Gay bomb?

That would have been effective, a bomb to turn Ayatollah Khomeini gay (and funny).

[Jim Franklin]

You are a vile disgusting Bigot. So does that make all Christians satan because they ignore all the massacres by Christians?

How is what I said bigoted? I am sorry Kiwi, but you live in a part of the world that is remote from reality (And don't even dare open that can of worms as I am in Auckland regularly to see family) and thus you have not seen what these vile bigots actually do, not just to Westerners you dick, but to their own as well. This is a fact often overlooked, as many Muslims died in 9/11 as other religious groups. Also, more Muslims are killed annually by these insurgent groups than Christians. It is not about them being Muslim, but it is an inescapable fact that they are.

You'd love that, I can imagine you siiting there smiling with glee as the masses were slaughted by a shady western govt.

You moron, as someone who has seen this **** first hand in several countries I think I am better placed to comment on this than you. The only Muslims that need die are Terrorists that you set up to take the fall..perhaps half a dozen. There would be no need or requirement to kill "masses" you retard as the insult to Mecca would band all Muslims against the Terror groups. Harsh yes, but effective with the minimal loss of life.

The extremists are killing people with their genitals???????

That shows your a moron. I said male Genitals ( B-O-L-L-O-C-K-S) or do you not have any??

You are a
sadistic bigot. Why don't you engage your brain and think instead of just talk of mass murder. A few Muslims hate the west, now I know to you the automatic action is to kill them all.

When you are in a position of knowledge of English, let alone the subject at hand, then I think I would debate this with you, but clearly you have no understanding of the words sadistic or bigot. No-one actually mentioned mass murder and as for killing someone who wants to kill me or those I care about, Yes I would, in a heart beat.

Why don't you look at it this way, the west has been screwing over the people in the middle east for along time. Your own country Britain screwed over the people of the middle east alot. Everyday the people of Palestine are murdered by Israel with full backing of the USA and the UK.

There is some truth in this statement by you, and I totally agree that if the West had never got involved in the Middle East then we would be unlikely to be were we are today, sadly the clock cannot go backwards and so we must address the problems of today. With regards Israel, the position of the British Government in respect of Israel is that it should honour agreements, ceasefires and UN resolutions. The UK has been fast to condemn actions by IDF units and often has tabled motions in the UN against Israel. I appreciate there is likely some double dealing going on in the background, but then all Governments play that game.

Now if the west stopped screwing over and killing the people of the middle east, possibly the extremist may find it harder to find favour among the populace.

The problem is that today's problems with Al Qaeda are similar to the IRA of the 1980's and 1990's. There are those in the organisation that want what they publicly claim, but the majority are involved due to Power, Money and drugs. Muslim Terror groups fall into several categories, and many should not be put in the same bed as Bin Laden and his cohorts. Hamas and several Palestinian groups simply want a free Palestinian state, and I wholeheartedly support them, it is sad they go about things the way they do, but they tend to keep their operations in their region. Other groups are International in scope and their sole reason for existing is to disrupt Democratic governments to further to so called Muslim cause against the demonic West. This is horse manure, they are murdering scum, pure and simple. The overwhelming majority of Muslims in the world do not give direct support to these groups, but by staying silent they give them indirect support. If you do not understand that then I feel sorry for you.

I find it odd that you target extremist Islam, but forget extremist Christianity and Judaism. They also kill alot of people but because they aren't Muslims no-one cares.

A terrorist is a Terrorist, I would treat all of them the same. You take an innocent and defenceless life, then you pay the price, I don't care if your a Christian, Jew, Muslim, Sikh, Taoist, Buddhist or Hindu or any other form or faction. Murdering scum is exactly that, and needs to be dealt with in a brutal and effective way to stop the problem dead in it's tracks and act as a deterrent to others who may be inclined down that path.

Kiwi, I have seen the evil that man does to his fellow man in more ****-holes that your probably aware of, I have seen woman and children hacked to death simply because they came from another village or tribe, I have seen toddlers and babies that have been raped and sodomised for the same reasons. I have heard and watched children die because they were blown up in the name of Islam, I have seen thousands perish due to this rubbish, and I have first hand experience of this shiite on my own streets, I was in London on 7/7 and in a building on top of the tunnel when the Aldgate East bomb detonated, I saw the people exiting the tube station and saw the fear in the eyes of people in the streets. I was working inside what became the exclusion zone and was actually on the News being escorted out at about 19:00hrs that night by a Police escort. The press speculated who we were as I was driving an unmarked Blue VW T5 panel van....I was simply an engineer who had been prevented from working as a result of murderous scum (I did enjoy the press speculating though..was fun)

[Midas]

Can we please tone this down and keep personal insults out of posts other than those in The Other Place!

[Yeti]

We are seen as being fools by most of the rest of Europe for blindly following the Americans into Iraq, which was in my opinion a really stupid things to do. Sadams faults and failings are well know, but in reality he was no real threat to the rest of the world, continuing sanctions and the odd smart bomb or cruise would have kept him under control until one of his henchmen got idea above his station.

Afghanistan on the other Hand was a worth while adventure that has been under resourced from the start, more regular troops were required from the start to hold ground and more special forces boys hunt down the hardcore terrorists. Aid project should have been focused on providing services the population need to improve there quality of life and provide sustainable income. More aid (economic and military) and political pressure should have been put on Pakistan to deal with the Taliban and terrorist groups on their side of the boarder. Afghanistan under the Taliban was a haven for the likes of al Qaeda not to mention the amount of heroin that was being produced.

The war in Afghanistan is not about religion, its about terrorism and drugs. I'm an atheist not some religious fanatic of any faith or group. I have no right to dictate how other people live their lives, on the other hand outside of the rule of law in my country, know one has the right to dictate how I live my life either. The basis of this conflict is that the terrorist want to inflict a hard-line fanatical religious dictatorship on the whole of the Muslim world then the rest of the world. If my neighbor chooses to live by a strict religions life stile that’s fine but he should have no write to impose life style choices or values on me or anyone else, there in lies the problem.

We are not the Puppets of the US of A we are allies but that does not mean blindly following their lead, having a boomer in the Atlantic with nuc's on board does not make us a supper power anymore either, we have a first class military that is not in doubt.

We need to concentrate or own issues, rebuild out economy, and infrastructure. We have to quit playing world police man that’s what the UN is there for. We need to guarantee our energy supplies through renewable nuclear power to reduce or dependency on foreign fossil fuel supplies, and secure our food production for the days when ship load of grain and lobsters won't be shipped in for abroad as they won't have anything to export.

Regards

Neil.

[Midas]

We are seen as being fools by most of the rest of Europe for blindly following the Americans into Iraq, which was in my opinion a really stupid things to do. Sadams faults and failings are well know, but in reality he was no real threat to the rest of the world, continuing sanctions and the odd smart bomb or cruise would have kept him under control until one of his henchmen got idea above his station.

Afghanistan on the other Hand was a worth while adventure that has been under resourced from the start, more regular troops were required from the start to hold ground and more special forces boys hunt down the hardcore terrorists. Aid project should have been focused on providing services the population need to improve there quality of life and provide sustainable income. More aid (economic and military) and political pressure should have been put on Pakistan to deal with the Taliban and terrorist groups on their side of the boarder. Afghanistan under the Taliban was a haven for the likes of al Qaeda not to mention the amount of heroin that was being produced.

The war in Afghanistan is not about religion, its about terrorism and drugs. I'm an atheist not some religious fanatic of any faith or group. I have no right to dictate how other people live their lives, on the other hand outside of the rule of law in my country, know one has the right to dictate how I live my life either. The basis of this conflict is that the terrorist want to inflict a hard-line fanatical religious dictatorship on the whole of the Muslim world then the rest of the world. If my neighbor chooses to live by a strict religions life stile that’s fine but he should have no write to impose life style choices or values on me or anyone else, there in lies the problem.

We are not the Puppets of the US of A we are allies but that does not mean blindly following their lead, having a boomer in the Atlantic with nuc's on board does not make us a supper power anymore either, we have a first class military that is not in doubt.

We need to concentrate or own issues, rebuild out economy, and infrastructure. We have to quit playing world police man that’s what the UN is there for. We need to guarantee our energy supplies through renewable nuclear power to reduce or dependency on foreign fossil fuel supplies, and secure our food production for the days when ship load of grain and lobsters won't be shipped in for abroad as they won't have anything to export.

Regards

Neil.

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