This is a discussion on More Strikes A Comin? within the United Kingdom Politics & Political Forum forums, part of the United Kingdom Political Forums category; Maybe I missed it, but its weird that there isn't a single post devoted to the BA cabin crew strikes. ...
either do it or don't. But I got places to be
Maybe I missed it, but its weird that there isn't a single post devoted to the BA cabin crew strikes. Now the strike has gone ahead, it seems likely the next strike dates (slated around Easter) will be avoided. Then again, with Willie Walsh at the helm, who knows?!
The point is, I heard something strange at PMQs this week. Diet Tory David "Call one Dave" Cameron urged BA staff to cross the picket lines, he called those that do "right minded" I think (can't find the exact quote). This strikes me as odd, can't remember a senior politician doing that before...very strange. Especially considering he said this on Wednesday before talks had officially broke down.
With Rail Workers now announcing industrial action too, could we just be seeing the beginning of a new public sector crisis? I hope people realise the stance a future Tory government would have towards trade unions in general, you'd think everyone would remember, but the British have such short term memories nowadays, I think everyone's been hitting the ganja pipe too hard. Belt tightening is coming, we all know this, and with the Tories in power they could kill the trade unions once and for all...
...oh Maggie will be happy
Democracy is the recurrent suspicion that more than half of the people are right more than half of the time.
E. B. White
"To be honest, you think a/c jump the fence, I say the whole college jump the fence"
The wonder that is Angelcountry
"If we're going to have a police state, at least orgainise it properly!"
Guy Outside the Chilcott Enquiry as he was led away by police for causing a 'disturbance' (thanks to LA I now know his name is Michael Culver)
Christian Zionist
What is the current dispute between the unions and British Airways really about?
What is the unions real gripe?
Do they actually have a valid one, or is it just an ultra-left union power struggle?
http://www.telegraph.co.uk/finance/n...in-strike.html
Ah, PRIDE, that would explain much.In a letter to the strikers, Mr Woodley said they had "stood strong" for their rights dignity and pride.
Jesus said,
"I am the Way, the Truth, and the Life, no man comes to the Father, but by Me".
Chancellor
Every cloud has a silver lining and all that - as a couple of people here already know, I have a 20% share in a small (6 seat) private executive jet and we're booked solid for days round all the BA strikes, the plane's flying almost non-stop around Europe at the moment. Perhaps I should actually thank socialism for once
"Of all tyrannies, a tyranny sincerely exercised 'for the good of its victims' may be the most oppressive. It would be better to live under robber barons than under omnipotent moral busybodies. The robber baron's cruelty may sometimes sleep, his cupidity may at some point be satiated; but those who torment us 'for our own good' will torment us without end for they do so with the approval of their own conscience." -- C.S. Lewis
Senior MP
No prizes or surprises for guessing where DTE's sympathies lie!
Like Barry the reasons for this strike do not seem altogether clear to me. It seems to centre on BA's wish to reduce cabin staff by an average of one member of cabin staff per flight. Considering the reduction in the duties of cabin staff in recent years, this seems reasonable to me. That the cabin staff, who are at the epicentre of the strike action, have voted so substantially in favour of industrial action tends to lead one to believe that they themselves believe that they have a justifiable grievance, or perhaps that as long as they will personally benefit, the rest of their colleagues and the general public can go to hell in a hand cart.
However whatever the outcome of this militant industrial action there will be no winners. BA already has a mountain of debt, and to have any hope of recovery needs to substantially reduce operating costs. This strike can only push the company further into crisis. So it certainly isn't in BA's, or their shareholders, interests for the strike actions to continue. As the crisis deepens, staff redundancies and more restrictive working patterns, will increase among both the cabin crews and all other employees, so it certainly isn't in the workers interests to strike. It can only cause distress, inconvenience and financial loss to members of the public at large, particularly with UNITE's timing of the strike action, resulting in a further loss of loyalty to this flag carrying 'brand' so it certainly isn't in the publics interests for the strike to go ahead.
What puzzles me far more than the merits, or otherwise, of a dispute between a generally well paid group of workers and their employers, is the role of UNITE.
This trade union, as we all know has paid Labour over £11m, representing some 25% of Labours income. It would therefore seem reasonable to assume that they are in favour of returning a Labour Government. On the surface this dispute would now seem to be completely undermining that objective. Why would UNITE do this emphasising, as their actions do, that Labour are still in the grip of the trade union movement, and are if anything as, or more, compromised than the Tories are with Ashcroft.
I tend to dismiss most conspiracy theories but that doesn't mean that conspiracies don't exist. Just imagine that out of the blue, in a day or two Gordon Brown has a high profile, high publicity meeting with UNITE. Talks drag on through the night, there are hourly news bulletins, until finally Flash Gordon emerges from the negotiations, flanked by the very un-adonis like Adonis and 'Mandy' Mandelson on the one side and the disreputable Charlie Whelan on the other, and the headlines read 'Browns personal intervention halts BA strike'. Just imagine the swing by a vacillating and largely confused electorate! Now such a conspiracy would be a cynical, dishonest and wholly immoral manipulation of the democratic process, so surely people with the integrity of Labour Government ministers would never be party to such a strategy? You only have to read about the corrupt, dishonest, self-serving activities of Byers, Hewitt and Hoon, all ex-Labour Ministers, to answer that one!!
Turning to the more wide ranging implications of trade union actions in general. If the trade union movement, and the individual trade unions within it, revert to the type of politically inspired, militant, violent, intimidating and anarchistic 'thug clubs' of the eighties, I truly hope that their 'paid for lackeys' from the Labour Party are not in government. I further hope that a Tory government would have the vision and strength to suppress such undemocratic and illegal activities, with the same robust determination as Margaret Thatcher's Tory government in the eighties. The comparatively rational and generally sensible employment relations over the last twenty odd years came about because of the Conservatives control of political extremism and intimidation within the trade union movement.
The Fascist
Margaret will return with the riot boys out in force. Not that that's bad thing, the Unions need a good kick up the ase.
either do it or don't. But I got places to be
Nice imput there DC.
A strong (not militant) trade union movment is necassary for proper democracy. The massive disengage with politics in general is down more than in part to the systematic destruction of the tade unions. Think about it, what is more important than your job? Its a gateway into the word of politics and offers normal people an opportunity to campaign for real change.
Major Major, thats a very long and detailed reply. I don't agree with any of it.
There is no conspiracy here. Willie Walsh and his BA henchmen reduced the package offered to the unions on the last day of talks. This effectively ensured a strike was going to happen. After all, how could the union accept a worse deal now when they refused a better one a week before?
As the belt tightening continues, the new Government will have choices with regards to which industries to help out and which to toss to the wolves. Labour have already chosen bankers and high rollers over the working classes, effectively selling out their base vote. In my opinion, its only a matter of time before the TUC breaks from the Labour party and starts fielding political candidates of its own. In the coming year, we'll see more and more strike action, as certain industries are sacrificed and others protected. If you thought it was bad under Labour, to quote Bachman Turner Overdrive, "you aint seen nothin yet, b-b-b-baby no you aint seen nothin yet".
Democracy is the recurrent suspicion that more than half of the people are right more than half of the time.
E. B. White
"To be honest, you think a/c jump the fence, I say the whole college jump the fence"
The wonder that is Angelcountry
"If we're going to have a police state, at least orgainise it properly!"
Guy Outside the Chilcott Enquiry as he was led away by police for causing a 'disturbance' (thanks to LA I now know his name is Michael Culver)
Senior MP
[QUOTE=DTE;102256]
That is entirely predictable and somehow reassuring.Major Major, thats a very long and detailed reply. I don't agree with any of it.
I do accept that. This paragraph was ever so slightly tongue in cheek! But wouldn't you have thought that having invested £11m in a labour victory they would have waited until after the GE?There is no conspiracy here.
I suspect that you are rather stating the obvious. Provided that such disputes are focused on the rational representation of workers employment interests then we will have to live with such discord. If such disputes become politically motivated, violent and intimidating left wing crusades such as they were in the eighties, we will need a strong government to resist and suppress them.As the belt tightening continues, the new Government will have choices with regards to which industries to help out and which to toss to the wolves. Labour have already chosen bankers and high rollers over the working classes, effectively selling out their base vote. In my opinion, its only a matter of time before the TUC breaks from the Labour party and starts fielding political candidates of its own. In the coming year, we'll see more and more strike action, as certain industries are sacrificed and others protected. If you thought it was bad under Labour, to quote Bachman Turner Overdrive, "you aint seen nothin yet, b-b-b-baby no you aint seen nothin yet".
either do it or don't. But I got places to be
You are of course assuming that UNITE is one huge entity when in fact they hold possibly the most ironic title in modern politics, well other than Middle East Peace Convoy Tony Blair of course. The two co-chairs of UNITE can't even stand to be in the same room as eachother. The tories like to pretend UNITE is a rabid group of Labour cheerleaders, when actually they are prone to just as much infighting as the party itself. Just more evidence of the fractured state of Britain's industriesOriginally Posted by Major Sinic
Or the crusades will need a strong presence to reisist and supress the influence of an intimidating government. You say tomato...I suspect that you are rather stating the obvious. Provided that such disputes are focused on the rational representation of workers employment interests then we will have to live with such discord. If such disputes become politically motivated, violent and intimidating left wing crusades such as they were in the eighties, we will need a strong government to resist and suppress them.
Democracy is the recurrent suspicion that more than half of the people are right more than half of the time.
E. B. White
"To be honest, you think a/c jump the fence, I say the whole college jump the fence"
The wonder that is Angelcountry
"If we're going to have a police state, at least orgainise it properly!"
Guy Outside the Chilcott Enquiry as he was led away by police for causing a 'disturbance' (thanks to LA I now know his name is Michael Culver)
Guest
Unions are necessary to stop stupid and reckless managers/employers abusing the general workforce, I think we can all agree on that. A weak union is no good to man or beast, but any Union that is managed Intelligently is a boon to both employers and workers alike. It is sad that the majority of the big Unions are bastions of Socialist fools who don't really give a rats about the members or the company they are employed by. The proof of that is the destruction of the British Car Industry by the Unions, not to mention other instances of strikes destroying companies so they all lost their jobs...
Helpful....I don't think..Major Major, thats a very long and detailed reply. I don't agree with any of it.
Get the facts right, the strike was going to go ahead regardless. The Union had stated that unless BA met all their demands they would strike..despite the fact that their ballot was found to have been done outside of the Unions own rules...hence the High Court ruling.
The BA cabin crew at Heathrow have been over paid and under worked through over staffing for many years, the Union has continuously prevented BA from bringing the Heathrow crews into line with the rest of BA. The staff at Gatwick and other locations BA operate out of accepted the package offered to Heathrow some two years ago...FACT....and the Heathrow staff refused it outright. Even with one member of the flight crew removed, despite the Unions claims of safety of passenger..BA at Heathrow will still have more flight attendant on board a given aircraft than any other Airline...again this is fact..perhaps you should check out the conversations taking place about this on the PPRuNE forums and see what the staff who know better than all of us are actually saying. The Union have this disastrously wrong, and they will cause BA to turn to administrators, and they could all lose their jobs...the airline industry has too many major carriers and most are in financial trouble at this time..there will not be many able or willing to buy up BA...
I agree that whichever Government we get they have to make hard choices, but in reality the Governments hands were tied with the banks that got into trouble, to allow one to fail would have shockwaves that would harm the working man even more than the current situation. Lets not forget that the last disastrous financial collapse open the doorway to major conflict and social upheaval. That may not have happened this time round, but could we really take that chance, one it happens there is no changing your mind...
DTE, I think that you should look into the whole BA/Unite issue a bit further, it is not as simple as it seems. Unite are a very militant bunch, I have had a personal dealing with them when I suspended a Union convenor due to verbally abusing an on call manager, refusing to attend site in an emergency when he was the call out engineer (he was in the flipping pub) and he thought it funny and perfectly OK that as a result of his actions the body of a 15 month old baby that had died had to be carried out in the rain so that the Parents could see their baby one last time. I discovered after I suspended him pending an investigation that
So as a Union convenor he was more equal than a colleague who he had reported the week before and thus got suspended for being drunk at work!!"I wasn't allowed to do that without the Unions authority because suspending a Convenor is a serious matter and can only be done with Union consent"
I am sorry to say that Unite need to look at their management and their practices...
The Fascist
I didn't say that Unions should be removed, rather under their current state they're simply too militant and politically meddlesome that any action as a union is either riven with fracture and infighting or destroys or at least damages the industry, and by extension the workers, that they're striking in. If these strikes get too bad then BA will cut more and more jobs, not what the Union is fighting for. This is increasingly becoming a problem in many Western countries including Australia where Unions think just because they represent the working class they can hold the whole country to ransom.Nice imput there DC.
A strong (not militant) trade union movment is necassary for proper democracy. The massive disengage with politics in general is down more than in part to the systematic destruction of the tade unions. Think about it, what is more important than your job? Its a gateway into the word of politics and offers normal people an opportunity to campaign for real change.
Unite is doing the right thing- either sit back and allow its members to be exploited, worrying about elections and holidays and other crap, or o take a stand against perpetually greedy career managers.
From what I see both sides are slightly at fault. BA staff have been given incredible benefits - long leave in foreign countries, stays in luxury hotels, that sort of thing. They need to accept the loss of a lot of those things. But equally Willie Walsh seems to want to reduce the quality of BA to Ryanair-style travel, which of course ruins the whole point of the airline as traditionally being very pleasant to fly on, if a little more expensive. Both sides seem to be approaching this from an ideological standpoint when the fact is that cuts are necessary, but not to the extent that the BA executive are suggesting. They should really be meeting each other halfway but both sides are just too bloody stubborn.
DC, I don't think that anyone believes the unions during Wilson and Callaghan's governments were beneficial to the country, but DTE is right, you do have to have strong (again, not necessarily militant) unionism to balance the interests of capitalism. If you have only one and not the other, or a significant imbalance, it leads to the hegemony of one class which is really in the interests of noone.
The Fascist
IMO Unions should serve to protect the rights of workers at work. Anything else is meddling. And furthermore they shouldn't immediately go to strike as soon as there's an issue. Any pre-mediation strikes should be made illegal and participants dismissable. What's more they have to be realistic. Yes BA is cutting hours and yes stewards and stewardesses probably have crap conditions, however with the current crisis in airlines, now is not the time to strike. What's more there are problems in certain industries where the whole country can suffer because of strikes, if there isn't any foreseeable solution I believe the Government should have the right to break the strikes to protect the greater good of the nation.
Chancellor
Quite. Strikes should be the absolute last resort in any dispute relating to working conditions within their own company which are being changed to become significantly different to the average for any given industry group. Even then they should be made illegal in certain businesses which are deemed essential to a country's economy and made illegal unless an employer refused to change the working conditions after an independent tribunal had ruled in favour of the workers.
"Of all tyrannies, a tyranny sincerely exercised 'for the good of its victims' may be the most oppressive. It would be better to live under robber barons than under omnipotent moral busybodies. The robber baron's cruelty may sometimes sleep, his cupidity may at some point be satiated; but those who torment us 'for our own good' will torment us without end for they do so with the approval of their own conscience." -- C.S. Lewis
Christian Zionist
All workers have the right to withdraw their labour - it's called resigning.
Jesus said,
"I am the Way, the Truth, and the Life, no man comes to the Father, but by Me".
I actually agree with a fair amount of this, but you have changed your tune from:
which is somewhat fascist (obviously). The working class isn't inherently better than the middle/upper classes but neither should they be denied a voice. It's called pluralist democracy and it's the best system we have so far.Margaret will return with the riot boys out in force. Not that that's bad thing, the Unions need a good kick up the ase.
So, if your boss decides to slash your pay in half while doubling his own, which leaves you unable to fully support your family, the best course is to leave your job and get nothing at all? Especially considering that the current economic climate means you probably won't be able to get another job.
Even if people did do that, and say an entire workforce upped and left over bad managerial decisions. You would have no business left at all which is clearly good for noone - the managers and the staff have both lost their incomes. There would not even be any prospects of flights resuming if the whole BA staff had resigned, there would be utter chaos and the economy would ultimately collapse. All of this over a stupid little ideological conservative piece of hate-the-poor 'common sense'.
The Fascist
I haven't changed my tune at all. I never said to get rid of the Unions, merely I meant they've grown too big for their boots, and a crackdown on exactly what they can and cannot do, especially in these economically fragile times, is needed.
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