Public Sector

[Hookit]

The only reason Cameron and other politicians are targeting the public sector is to try and shift the heat of their parties and their MP’s wrong doings such as expense claims ect.
It is all propaganda nothing more turn the worker against the workers yet they say nothing about the millions wasted giving benefits to migrants who children are not in the UK nor are they saying they will stabilise the benefits to people who have loads of kids to obtain more benefits.
I would like to see as from the 1st April 2012 child support will only be given to children in this country and only for the first two children born no benefits for a third or more. This would see a drop in the number of kids the chaves have.

[Midas]

The only reason Cameron and other politicians are targeting the public sector is to try and shift the heat of their parties and their MP’s wrong doings such as expense claims ect.

You don't think it's because the public sector is bloated and hugely wasteful, and that politicians from all sides are only too well aware that the public are becoming increasingly concerned about that fact, exacerbated by Labour's appalling handling of the current economic crisis?

It is all propaganda nothing more turn the worker against the workers yet they say nothing about the millions wasted giving benefits to migrants who children are not in the UK nor are they saying they will stabilise the benefits to people who have loads of kids to obtain more benefits.

I would like to see as from the 1st April 2012 child support will only be given to children in this country and only for the first two children born no benefits for a third or more. This would see a drop in the number of kids the chaves have.

I do agree that something needs to be done about the wastefulness of the benefits system as a whole, not just child benefits, but a top to bottom overhaul of the entire tax structure is a far better way of going about this. A large increase in the threshold at which people start to pay tax would take the vast majority of working people who currently claim benefits completely out of the system. Population control is another matter entirely, and I'm not so sure there is any 'easy' way of going about this without alienating perhaps millions of people on low income or benefits, although it does need very serious consideration given that according to the latest figures from the Optimum Population Trust the UK already has more than twice the population it can sustainably accommodate.

[Hookit]

You don't think it's because the public sector is bloated and hugely wasteful, and that politicians from all sides are only too well aware that the public are becoming increasingly concerned about that fact, exacerbated by Labour's appalling handling of the current economic crisis?.

Of course there are a few areas as you say however if you have ever worked dealt or know anyone in the public sector you will know they are over worked. For example my wife she cannot do her work in the given time so she is wotrking from 7am to 10pm most days but only paid to work 7.5 hours a day. Even on holidays she takes her mobile and gets calls about her work. She is a senior manager and she tells me that all her staff are in the same position. You cannot trust the likes of Cameron and brown to tell the truth.

[Midas]

Of course there are a few areas as you say however if you have ever worked dealt or know anyone in the public sector you will know they are over worked. For example my wife she cannot do her work in the given time so she is wotrking from 7am to 10pm most days but only paid to work 7.5 hours a day. Even on holidays she takes her mobile and gets calls about her work. She is a senior manager and she tells me that all her staff are in the same position. You cannot trust the likes of Cameron and brown to tell the truth.

Maybe some public service sectors are under staffed and over worked, it wouldn't surprise me in the slightest, however as a whole the civil service is bloated and inefficient. There have been reports after reports over the years, independent reports at that, to attest to that fact. If private industry was as inefficient as state business, the country would not only be on its knees, but would be lying down waiting to die!

[Hookit]

Maybe some public service sectors are under staffed and over worked, it wouldn't surprise me in the slightest, however as a whole the civil service is bloated and inefficient. There have been reports after reports over the years, independent reports at that, to attest to that fact. If private industry was as inefficient as state business, the country would not only be on its knees, but would be lying down waiting to die!

Well let’s look at the private sector do you think the rail service which is private is run well? I travel 1st class and often people are standing in first class as well as in standard. Did the trains stop due to leafs on the rails when it was BR not it did not. Let’s look at the bus service since privatised under Thatcher I live on the out skirts of a large city on a main road and cannot get a bus into the city before it was private there was two buses an hour and it was well used in fact in a morning before 9-30am there was an extra bus on as they were full yet the private company has taken them all off.

Have you ever worked on a building site at the end of building full pallets of brinks, door and window frames are bull dozed into a big hole and covered over or bumped into skips.

If the private sector had the scrutiny the public sector has you would see many are not that good hence so many go under but the large ones still seem to survive. Football clubs they are private and many owe many millions and still fail to draw the crowds and still play rubbish week in and week out.

[Hookit]

Maybe some public service sectors are under staffed and over worked, it wouldn't surprise me in the slightest, however as a whole the civil service is bloated and inefficient. There have been reports after reports over the years, independent reports at that, to attest to that fact. If private industry was as inefficient as state business, the country would not only be on its knees, but would be lying down waiting to die!

These reports are anything but independent they are tasked usually by a political party with something to gain from the outcome of the enquiry such as David Cameron, many of the so called independents enquiries are paid for by political parties this being the case how on earth can they be independent?

You have to look beyond what looks independent and see who is in control of the enquiry you will seldom see a true independent enquiry into the public sector. As for the civil service being bloated and inefficient have you worked there have you seen this is true or not or is it all only what you have read in the papers and heard on radio or TV and where do they get their information from usually the opposition party of the day and of course their leader such as Mr Cameron will put everything right. In all her time in office Thatcher put nothing right she had riots due to poll tax she sold off some of the public sector which is not and was soon after she sold it off failing and most are still failing to this day.

[Midas]

These reports are anything but independent they are tasked usually by a political party with something to gain from the outcome of the enquiry such as David Cameron, many of the so called independents enquiries are paid for by political parties this being the case how on earth can they be independent?

You have to look beyond what looks independent and see who is in control of the enquiry you will seldom see a true independent enquiry into the public sector. As for the civil service being bloated and inefficient have you worked there have you seen this is true or not or is it all only what you have read in the papers and heard on radio or TV and where do they get their information from usually the opposition party of the day and of course their leader such as Mr Cameron will put everything right. In all her time in office Thatcher put nothing right she had riots due to poll tax she sold off some of the public sector which is not and was soon after she sold it off failing and most are still failing to this day.

Those with a vested interest in maintaining the status quo will always find ways of justifying its continued existence! But no, I've never worked for any public body (thank goodness), however I've had getting on for 30 years experience in dealing with both central and local government departments and their multiple layers of inefficient and wasteful, and expensive, bureaucracy which does little to enhance the ease of managing companies. My first wife is also a senior Civil Servant and has had a lifetime of seeing the way the system works, or in many cases doesn't work or only works at half speed, from a management perspective; we're still in reasonably regular contact and she often tells me about the horrendous levels of waste and inefficiency she has to face on an almost daily basis.

Get rid of much of the public sector, put all non-essential services out to the private sector and cut the red tape that binds them. Then perhaps we'd see both start to perform better.

[Streetwalker]

The public sector is unsustainable in its current form, The numbers dont add up

(Money wasted by the state + People working for the state+ People taking off the state + people reliant on the state ) = (people paying for the state + Y)

Y of course being the billions we havnt got never had have and are never going to have.Therefore it is ,even to the simpilist.obvious that something has to give at the front end of the equation as the people paying for it are skint
.With regard to Midas's signiture,we have now arrived at that point

[Hookit]

Those with a vested interest in maintaining the status quo will always find ways of justifying its continued existence! But no, I've never worked for any public body (thank goodness), however I've had getting on for 30 years experience in dealing with both central and local government departments and their multiple layers of inefficient and wasteful, and expensive, bureaucracy which does little to enhance the ease of managing companies. My first wife is also a senior Civil Servant and has had a lifetime of seeing the way the system works, or in many cases doesn't work or only works at half speed, from a management perspective; we're still in reasonably regular contact and she often tells me about the horrendous levels of waste and inefficiency she has to face on an almost daily basis.

Get rid of much of the public sector, put all non-essential services out to the private sector and cut the red tape that binds them. Then perhaps we'd see both start to perform better.

If you put it out to the private sector Greed will replace a quality service. The problem with the public sector is bureaucracy but that is in no way is the public sector to blame it is the government and if they were replaced by the private sector the government would insist they still have the same bureaucracy as the public sector had.

We have only to look at the failing public sector sell off to see this is true. It is all based on GREED and not quality of service. Lets look at one private sector British Airways suspended a member of staff for wearing a cross
now what is that if not bureaucracy?

It is decades of bad government that is to blame not the public sector workers.

[Kiwi 1691]

If you put it out to the private sector Greed will replace a quality service. The problem with the public sector is bureaucracy but that is in no way is the public sector to blame it is the government and if they were replaced by the private sector the government would insist they still have the same bureaucracy as the public sector had.

A valid point, and why we need the private and public sectors to work together better.

We have only to look at the failing public sector sell off to see this is true. It is all based on GREED and not quality of service. Lets look at one private sector British Airways suspended a member of staff for wearing a cross
now what is that if not bureaucracy?

If the cross is not apart of the uniform, disciplinary action can be justified.

It is decades of bad government that is to blame not the public sector workers.

Well the Public Sector workers just do as they are instructed.

[Midas]

If you put it out to the private sector Greed will replace a quality service. The problem with the public sector is bureaucracy but that is in no way is the public sector to blame it is the government and if they were replaced by the private sector the government would insist they still have the same bureaucracy as the public sector had.

We have only to look at the failing public sector sell off to see this is true. It is all based on GREED and not quality of service. Lets look at one private sector British Airways suspended a member of staff for wearing a cross
now what is that if not bureaucracy?

It is decades of bad government that is to blame not the public sector workers.

What do you define as greed? You've used the word several times both in this thread and elsewhere as if earning more money than someone else is somehow wrong. At what point is it 'greedy' for someone who say owns part of a business to take out excess profits for their own use, and why? However that notwithstanding, your comment about the government-inspired bureaucracy that's so prevalent in both public and private sectors is exactly right, however the private sector survives despite it and usually still manages to turn a profit, whereas it's endemic in the public sector, which as a whole has little or no incentive to cut it back or be cost-effective. After all, if a private company runs out of money, it goes bankrupt, but if a public sector department runs short, it simply holds out its hand for more taxpayer's money.

[Hookit]

What do you define as greed? You've used the word several times both in this thread and elsewhere as if earning more money than someone else is somehow wrong. At what point is it 'greedy' for someone who say owns part of a business to take out excess profits for their own use, and why? However that notwithstanding, your comment about the government-inspired bureaucracy that's so prevalent in both public and private sectors is exactly right, however the private sector survives despite it and usually still manages to turn a profit, whereas it's endemic in the public sector, which as a whole has little or no incentive to cut it back or be cost-effective. After all, if a private company runs out of money, it goes bankrupt, but if a public sector department runs short, it simply holds out its hand for more taxpayer's money.

Greed to me is where the company owners make a lot of money and provide a poor service using inferior materials and paying staff low wages and that can be seen in many of the sold off public sectors already as I have already outlined. Such as cleaners for the NHS and our public transport, water, and power providers which have been sold off out of UK and they sting us but keep prices lower in their own country such as France.

[Kiwi 1691]

Greed to me is where the company owners make a lot of money and provide a poor service using inferior materials and paying staff low wages and that can be seen in many of the sold off public sectors already as I have already outlined. Such as cleaners for the NHS and our public transport, water, and power providers which have been sold off out of UK and they sting us but keep prices lower in their own country such as France.

To be fair business have to make as much money as they can, for example if they have shareholders, the shareholders expect maximum payouts each year. If they don't get the payouts the expect, the board, execs etc won't be around for long.

[Midas]

Greed to me is where the company owners make a lot of money and provide a poor service using inferior materials and paying staff low wages and that can be seen in many of the sold off public sectors already as I have already outlined. Such as cleaners for the NHS and our public transport, water, and power providers which have been sold off out of UK and they sting us but keep prices lower in their own country such as France.

With due respect, that's a rather more emotionally driven than factually driven comment. If a company, any company, offers either inferior goods or a poor service, they'll not last long in a free market. Their customers will soon start to vote with their feet and buy elsewhere. What is "a lot of money"; what factors do you take into account when you define that?

As for the NHS cleaners, we've already been through this a number of times. The NHS are bound to take the cheapest tender, which is rarely the one which offers value for money. Let's say you own a cleaning company and you know it's going to cost you £250,000 a year to adequately clean a given hospital. If you then find out that the local NHS Trust are only prepared to pay £200,000, out of which a profit has to be made, something has to give; do you and every other cleaning contractor who also know the true cost of carrying out the work properly, either turn down the opportunity to tender or do you come in with a cut price service? As I've said before, pay peanuts, get monkeys.

[Don]

Maybe some public service sectors are under staffed and over worked, it wouldn't surprise me in the slightest, however as a whole the civil service is bloated and inefficient. There have been reports after reports over the years, independent reports at that, to attest to that fact. If private industry was as inefficient as state business, the country would not only be on its knees, but would be lying down waiting to die!

Truth to tell, this would be true statement no matter to what government anywhere it was applied. It seems to be the nature of the 'game'. In the private sector, with few exceptions, one either produces or one gets the sack, passed over, etc. Not so in public 'service'.

[Don]

If the private sector had the scrutiny the public sector has you would see many are not that good hence so many go under but the large ones still seem to survive. Football clubs they are private and many owe many millions and still fail to draw the crowds and still play rubbish week in and week out.[/FONT]

That seems the key, "many go under" admittedly not all (some are too big to be allowed to apparently). Public sector organizations, with few exceptions, never seem to die the death they deserve. The solution, all to often, in any country, seems to be to add another layer of bureaucracy and bloat.

[Hookit]

That seems the key, "many go under" admittedly not all (some are too big to be allowed to apparently). Public sector organizations, with few exceptions, never seem to die the death they deserve. The solution, all to often, in any country, seems to be to add another layer of bureaucracy and bloat.I wonder why the things that should be so simple, so natural... like loving someone and letting them see into your heart... should require so much courage?

It only takes courage if your heart is not true and this is the problem we have with most of our MPs across the parties they are not honest so it is difficult for them to open their hearts.

[Don]

It only takes courage if your heart is not true and this is the problem we have with most of our MPs across the parties they are not honest so it is difficult for them to open their hearts.

Actually, that last bit was my "sig" line, but you probably already knew that. If it works for you in this discussion, Ok. From my observation, not just in the U.S., where it is a huge problem, most civil service regulations make it nigh unto impossible to fire employees for anything short of murder. Where I live, literally is crawling with civil service employees because of a very large Military and NASA presence. You would not believe some of the horror stories I hear and personally witness with employees who may as well stay home and collect their check for all the 'work' they do while at work. Multiply that waste by all the locations and it boggles the mind, how much money would be saved. Of course there is the argument that if all the deadwood was cut, we'd have to put them on welfare. You can't win for losing when it comes to civil service.

[Hookit]

Actually, that last bit was my "sig" line, but you probably already knew that. If it works for you in this discussion, Ok. From my observation, not just in the U.S., where it is a huge problem, most civil service regulations make it nigh unto impossible to fire employees for anything short of murder. Where I live, literally is crawling with civil service employees because of a very large Military and NASA presence. You would not believe some of the horror stories I hear and personally witness with employees who may as well stay home and collect their check for all the 'work' they do while at work. Multiply that waste by all the locations and it boggles the mind, how much money would be saved. Of course there is the argument that if all the deadwood was cut, we'd have to put them on welfare. You can't win for losing when it comes to civil service.

In the UK politicians say we have far too many Civil Servants but most have at least six months work on their desks and many work longer hours without overtime pay just to try and clear up the backlog. I feel in this country it is not the public sector that is the problem but our MP's.