The deal was on the table

[Streetwalker]

Cameron could well be waking up in Dowing street this morning if he had taken the UKIP offer to stand down all its candidates in exchange for a referendum on Europe.Results are showing he would have got another ten to fifteen seats if the Eurosceptic party had withdrawn.

Ironically UKIP's votes could now see the prospect of their potential lovers getting into bed with another,the europhile Liberals.

So,in hindsight should Cameron have taken the deal,will they in the event of Election round two ?

The Conservatives could and maybe should be in Government and they blew it for what ? Oh, giving the people a say over their own destiny,now that will never do will it ?

[ryoden]

He took a gamble and it didn't quite pay off, now he has to compromise. Hopefully he won't have to give in on Europe when he gets into be with the liberals.

[Streetwalker]

He took a gamble and it didn't quite pay off, now he has to compromise. Hopefully he won't have to give in on Europe when he gets into be with the liberals.

It was a gamble he didnt realy need to take,unless of course he believes the country would vote to leave. As it stands he will join up with a party that wishes to take us deeper into the fedralist state.
Why are our political leaders so against giving the people a say on this ?

[Tete123]

Why are our political leaders so against giving the people a say on this ?

The reason is clear, and is proved by the G.E results: People vote on these issues for all the wrong reasons and quite frankly are unable to make an informed decision due to a complete lack of understanding.

[ryoden]

The reason is clear, and is proved by the G.E results: People vote on these issues for all the wrong reasons and quite frankly are unable to make an informed decision due to a complete lack of understanding.

Although I am somewhat of an EU sceptic I have to agree that with regards to referendums the people voting (general public) have to have a decent understanding of the implications of what they are voting for. That said is there actually an unbiased account relaying the pros and cons of EU membership anywhere on the net? While I realise one could read through the entire treaty and its amendments (Lisbon treaty) but that still won't give a clear understanding of the full implications (even assuming it was easily understandable to someone not fluent in legalise)

[Major Sinic]

Cameron could well be waking up in Dowing street this morning if he had taken the UKIP offer to stand down all its candidates in exchange for a referendum on Europe.Results are showing he would have got another ten to fifteen seats if the Eurosceptic party had withdrawn.

Ironically UKIP's votes could now see the prospect of their potential lovers getting into bed with another,the europhile Liberals.

So,in hindsight should Cameron have taken the deal,will they in the event of Election round two ?

The Conservatives could and maybe should be in Government and they blew it for what ? Oh, giving the people a say over their own destiny,now that will never do will it ?

You may or may not be right. Within the Tory party are a considerable number of activists and supporters who are in favour of our membership of Europe. Perhaps a strong anti-European stance from the Conservatives might have lost them as many votes as it it would have gained them. The Tories have adopted the view that the UK's interests are best served by fighting for them from within the EU, not outside it. It is part of their policy to ensure a referendum when any further major policy changes within Europe occurs.

By denying the Tories an overall majority as you suggest, UKIP have left Labour and the Liberal Democrats in a far greater position of influence than they would otherwise have had. This is particularly ironic in the case of Labour, for it was Labour which broke its unambiguous promise, by refusing the British people their democratic right to vote in a referendum over the Lisbon Treaty/Constitution, while the Liberal Democrats have always openly and honestly been the most enthusiastic of the three major parties with regard to European integration.

I suspect that the next General Election will almost certainly take place within twelve months, and may well be based on a more democratic footing than the one just gone, in view of the fact that either the Tories or Labour will almost certainly give the LibDems electoral reform in exchange for an alliance.

[Streetwalker]

The reason is clear, and is proved by the G.E results: People vote on these issues for all the wrong reasons and quite frankly are unable to make an informed decision due to a complete lack of understanding.

Thats not good enough,the "we know best" attitude of government wont wash,The people are not stupid,just not properly informed

[Streetwalker]

You may or may not be right. Within the Tory party are a considerable number of activists and supporters who are in favour of our membership of Europe. Perhaps a strong anti-European stance from the Conservatives might have lost them as many votes as it it would have gained them. The Tories have adopted the view that the UK's interests are best served by fighting for them from within the EU, not outside it. It is part of their policy to ensure a referendum when any further major policy changes within Europe occurs.

.

We will never know how many votes it may have cost them though I believe their initial rejection of the UKIP offer was more about keeping their own eurosceptic MP's in order.
The Tory party is split over Europe they clearly are confused at which way to turn.Cameron says it is best to fight for British interests from within yet withdraws his MEP's from the center right EPP (members of which include Germany and Frances ruling parties) virtually baring himself from the big boys table.He then joins his MEP's up with the ECR (Euro conservatives and reformists) a grouping that includes some rather dubious far right parties from eastern europe,isolating himself even further.

There may however be a chink of light on the horizon. A few amendments to the Lisbon Treaty need signing up to in the Autum.Will this see the "transfer of power" clause kicking in and a call for referendum.Or will we get the same old "its just a bit of tidying up" line. I wont be putting any money on it

[Streetwalker]

Although I am somewhat of an EU sceptic I have to agree that with regards to referendums the people voting (general public) have to have a decent understanding of the implications of what they are voting for. That said is there actually an unbiased account relaying the pros and cons of EU membership anywhere on the net?

If there is the pro's list would be very short

[Expounder]

You may or may not be right. Within the Tory party are a considerable number of activists and supporters who are in favour of our membership of Europe. Perhaps a strong anti-European stance from the Conservatives might have lost them as many votes as it it would have gained them. The Tories have adopted the view that the UK's interests are best served by fighting for them from within the EU, not outside it. It is part of their policy to ensure a referendum when any further major policy changes within Europe occurs.

By denying the Tories an overall majority as you suggest, UKIP have left Labour and the Liberal Democrats in a far greater position of influence than they would otherwise have had. This is particularly ironic in the case of Labour, for it was Labour which broke its unambiguous promise, by refusing the British people their democratic right to vote in a referendum over the Lisbon Treaty/Constitution, while the Liberal Democrats have always openly and honestly been the most enthusiastic of the three major parties with regard to European integration.

I suspect that the next General Election will almost certainly take place within twelve months, and may well be based on a more democratic footing than the one just gone, in view of the fact that either the Tories or Labour will almost certainly give the LibDems electoral reform in exchange for an alliance.

The fact that Cameron is having to hold his nose and talk to the Lib Dems is because he tried to become a Tony Blair clone. Surrounded by a small inner shadow cabinet clique and "strategist" Big Joke, Steve Hilton and the Big Society, proves that his flawed judgement in every decision he made would make him a disaster as Prime Minister.

The election was his for the taking after 13 years of a Labour government. Ashcroft's millions into the marginals, a rabid anti Labour press [with one exception] a Labour P.M. more derided by the right than Hitler, plus Duffy Gate, three Labour MPs charged over the expences scandal and a one time 20% lead in the polls evaporating mainly because of Osbourne's gaff with the word austerity.

His problems are far from over even if the Clegg sells the Lib Dems out and opts to support the Tories. Both he and Clegg will both have the grass roots of their parties at their throats. Clegg is a closet Tory and would love to have three seats in a Tory/Lib coalition but is tied to enacting Lib Dem constitutional procedures. Cameron will have Tory hardliners breathing down his neck cursing him for his stupidity and demanding NO to P.R.

Whichever way this crisis of forming a government pans out, the Labour party is the winner. If Clegg goes for Cameron's offer, two years or less down the line, Labour with a solid block of seats in the commons and a new leader, will be ready for a return bout. As unemployment figures of over 3mn take hold because of immediate Tory slash and burn policies in public services,they will confirm Labour's prediction about Tory policies were correct, and that as Labour policies were not given a chance to be proved right or wrong they could get the benefit of the doubt.

On the other hand if Clegg is forced into a coalition with Labour, with Alistair Darling and Vince Cable directing the economy, and Brown agreeing to stand down when we are out of the woods, and a P.R. system in place it's bye bye forever to single party electoral landslides. In fact Cameron has unintentionally rescued Labour from a commons wipe out and placed it in poll position for the future.