Dismantle the Union

[Major Sinic]

Four nations comprise the United Kingdom. Three of these nations, Scotland, Wales and Ireland, are heavily subsidised by the fourth, England.

Of these four nations, three have their own parliaments or political assemblies and are largely able to establish and maintain their own policies where they relate solely to their own country. MPs from the other countries within the Union have either no, or restricted voting rights on internal legislation relating to the three smaller nations.

Only one of the four nations, England, does not have its own parliament or political assembly and MPs from all three smaller nations have full voting rights regarding legislation which relates only to England.

Each country has its own language, culture, history and tradition and many citizens of the three smaller nations want and believe in the viability of their independence. Each of the three smaller nations has a strong nationalist movement and each would welcome a referendum on their sovereign status.

England on the other hand, has no English parliament (Westminster is the UK parliament) and the wishes of the English people are compromised by the undemocratic voting rights granted to the UK MPs from Scotland, Wales and Ireland.

The most recent result of this democratic farce, is that the people of England voted overwhelmingly for a Conservative Government, but the self-serving interests of foreign voters from Scotland, Wales and N.Ireland ensured that the wishes of the English were thwarted.

Foreign aid from the Westminster Parliament provides a minimum subsidy of £1130 (over and above the average spent per head in England) for each man, woman and child in each of these smaller nations,peaking at £1690 per head in Scotland.

This means that the Scots pay less or no university tuition fees, abuse student selection on racial grounds (yes they actively practice prejudice against English students), enjoy lower prescription charges, and their elderly do not pay for their pastoral care. This all comes from the subsidy paid by the English taxpayer.

I believe that in the interests of democracy, practicality and fairness the Union Act should be repealed, and each of the four nations of the Union be granted its own sovereignty.

In the meantime, foreign MPs should lose the right to vote on English matters, all subsidies paid by the UK parliament to the three smaller nations should be suspended, and the savings utilised for the benefit of the English, and an English Parliament should be established.

The Union was not formed by the voluntary amalgamation of four friendly nations, but by English military might and supremacy (God knows why!). Each of the smaller nations were dragged screaming into the Union. The time has come when each should be released from the perceived English yoke, and given the opportunity to seek their own national destinies.

[JacquesMagique]

I'd like to see you argue your case to a Northern Irish unionist! They have spent the last century and a half (and more?) fighting and dieing to remain part of the union.

Furthermore, the relative strength, or lack of, of Plaid and the SNP would suggest that the desire to leave the union amongst the Welsh and the Scottish would suggest that the desire for independence is not all that strong for many.

An English parliament would remedy much of the voting issues you complain about, and furthermore the majority of scottish and welsh MPs tend to abstain from votes on English only matters.

As far as the 'Tax burden' issue goes, think about the further implications. The north east is a tax burden on England. So is the northwest. Maybe we should just make The City of London it's own nation? That would seem to be fair.

[Major Sinic]

I'd like to see you argue your case to a Northern Irish unionist! They have spent the last century and a half (and more?) fighting and dieing to remain part of the union.

Whilst others with equal rights have been fighting and dying to leave and join the republic in the South. Just because people are prepared to fight and die for a cause, doesn't make the cause right.

Furthermore, the relative strength, or lack of, of Plaid and the SNP would suggest that the desire to leave the union amongst the Welsh and the Scottish would suggest that the desire for independence is not all that strong for many.

Why would anyone in their right mind vote to kill the golden goose. Remove the subsidies and then lets see how strong the desire for independence is. I suspect it would suddenly become a burning issue.

An English parliament would remedy much of the voting issues you complain about, and furthermore the majority of scottish and welsh MPs tend to abstain from votes on English only matters.

The Labour ones don't. It was the Scottish Labour MPs who gave the last government its majority. Don't forget Salmon was arguing for a 'coalition of losers' with Plaid whatever and the SNP holding the balance of power. Why? so he could coerce the coalition to limit its inevitable cuts to England.

Of course an English Parliament would remedy many of the political and democratic injustices, but we haven't got one!!!

As far as the 'Tax burden' issue goes, think about the further implications. The north east is a tax burden on England. So is the northwest. Maybe we should just make The City of London it's own nation? That would seem to be fair.

The 'north east' and the 'north west' are part of England, not a separate nation like the Scots, Welsh and N.Irish. If the smaller nations in the Union wish to stay, then let them do so without the hand outs from England

By the way, good to see you posting again Jacques.

[Midas]

It's easy to see both sides to this, but to me the simple answer all round is to keep the UK as it is with Scotland, Wales and Northern Ireland as separate countries within the union, but to completely devolve all aspects, and costs, of administration on 'local' matters to their respective parliaments, whilst England retains the overall say on all matters which affect the UK in relation to the outside world. England should of course have its own parliament within Westminster where non English MPs do not have any say. That way the three smaller nations would get the benefits of controlling their own destinies to a far greater extent than now, but they'd also get a taste of what it really costs to do so. Maybe a simplistic view, but one which I suspect would be welcomed by the majority. A straightforward UK-wide referendum would ascertain the popularity of such a move.

[Major Sinic]

It's easy to see both sides to this, but to me the simple answer all round is to keep the UK as it is with Scotland, Wales and Northern Ireland as separate countries within the union, but to completely devolve all aspects, and costs, of administration on 'local' matters to their respective parliaments, whilst England retains the overall say on all matters which affect the UK in relation to the outside world. England should of course have its own parliament within Westminster where non English MPs do not have any say. That way the three smaller nations would get the benefits of controlling their own destinies to a far greater extent than now, but they'd also get a taste of what it really costs to do so. Maybe a simplistic view, but one which I suspect would be welcomed by the majority. A straightforward UK-wide referendum would ascertain the popularity of such a move.

I could go along with this. It is certainly the basis of a workable compromise.The present situation within the Union is however as unsatisfactory as our electoral system, our parliamentary structure and our relationship within Europe. Many express views on these matters, but the injustice suffered by the English within the Union is rarely mentioned.

[ryoden]

It's easy to see both sides to this, but to me the simple answer all round is to keep the UK as it is with Scotland, Wales and Northern Ireland as separate countries within the union, but to completely devolve all aspects, and costs, of administration on 'local' matters to their respective parliaments, whilst England retains the overall say on all matters which affect the UK in relation to the outside world. England should of course have its own parliament within Westminster where non English MPs do not have any say. That way the three smaller nations would get the benefits of controlling their own destinies to a far greater extent than now, but they'd also get a taste of what it really costs to do so. Maybe a simplistic view, but one which I suspect would be welcomed by the majority. A straightforward UK-wide referendum would ascertain the popularity of such a move.

Gets no arguement from me, sounds fair.

[JacquesMagique]

Whilst others with equal rights have been fighting and dying to leave and join the republic in the South. Just because people are prepared to fight and die for a cause, doesn't make the cause right.

Don't get me wrong, I'm not a fan of the unionists at all, I'm just saying that they don't consider Ulster to be a nation in it's own right (most of them), and they in fact consider 'Britain' to be a nation in itself, rather than a union of nations. Barely anybody involved considers Ulster a nation, it is a territory populate with people from people 'British' and 'Irish' nationalities.

Why would anyone in their right mind vote to kill the golden goose. Remove the subsidies and then lets see how strong the desire for independence is. I suspect it would suddenly become a burning issue.

Maybe.

The 'north east' and the 'north west' are part of England, not a separate nation like the Scots, Welsh and N.Irish. If the smaller nations in the Union wish to stay, then let them do so without the hand outs from England

But again though, many consider themselves members of a 'British Nation'.

By the way, good to see you posting again Jacques.

Well somebody's got to put all you tories in their place

[Major Sinic]

Don't get me wrong, I'm not a fan of the unionists at all, I'm just saying that they don't consider Ulster to be a nation in it's own right (most of them), and they in fact consider 'Britain' to be a nation in itself, rather than a union of nations. Barely anybody involved considers Ulster a nation, it is a territory populate with people from people 'British' and 'Irish' nationalities.

Fair comment. It is in reality part of the Irish nation, most of which is in the Republic of Ireland. However I maintain that this 'territory' has its own parliamentary assembly, which is more than England has.

But again though, many consider themselves members of a 'British Nation'.

Many might, but I believe that most would consider England, Scotland, Wales and Ireland as separate nations, the latter three being forced into the Union by England

Well somebody's got to put all you tories in their place

My desire to see the repeal of the Union Act is hardly Tory, or mainstream policy of any party.

[JacquesMagique]

Fair comment. It is in reality part of the Irish nation,

A nation is comprised of people. The population of northern ireland is split between the nations of Britain and Ireland (with a small minority considering themselves ulstermen).

Many might, but I believe that most would consider England, Scotland, Wales and Ireland as separate nations, the latter three being forced into the Union by England

Well that perhaps makes the case for a referendum then. The protestant sections of northern ireland and probably wales would I imagine vote to remain part of the union overwhelmingly.

My desire to see the repeal of the Union Act is hardly Tory, or mainstream policy of any party.

You are a tory though.

[Major Sinic]

A nation is comprised of people. The population of northern ireland is split between the nations of Britain and Ireland (with a small minority considering themselves ulstermen).

Until 1922, just three generations ago, Ulster formed part of the country and nation of Ireland. It has never formed part of England. It is my contention that Britain is neither a single country nor a single nation. The various Acts of Union all regard Scotland, Wales, Ireland and England as separate countries.

Well that perhaps makes the case for a referendum then. The protestant sections of northern ireland and probably wales would I imagine vote to remain part of the union overwhelmingly.

You may be right. However any referendum, which you will recall I proposed in my original post, should of course include the English, and should make it absolutely clear that the subsidies paid by the taxpayers of England to the smaller nations would be discontinued irrespective of whether they voted for continued Union or independence. The English hand outs are a fairly convincing reason to many, to stay in the Union.

You are a tory though.

Yes Jacques, I am definitely a Tory

[JacquesMagique]

Until 1922, just three generations ago, Ulster formed part of the country and nation of Ireland. It has never formed part of England. It is my contention that Britain is neither a single country nor a single nation. The various Acts of Union all regard Scotland, Wales, Ireland and England as separate countries.

But it is populated to a fair extent by people who identify very strongly as part of a 'British Nation'. The idea you could just throw Northern Ireland out of the union is short-sighted at best. The idea that Northern Irish protestants belong to the Irish nation is frankly ridiculous.

You may be right. However any referendum, which you will recall I proposed in my original post, should of course include the English, and should make it absolutely clear that the subsidies paid by the taxpayers of England to the smaller nations would be discontinued irrespective of whether they voted for continued Union or independence. The English hand outs are a fairly convincing reason to many, to stay in the Union.

But if we accept the idea of 'Britain' as a nation then they aren't handouts anymore than they are handouts to the northeast or southwest. If the scots, welsh and majority of people in northern ireland identify as being part of a british nation, then they should continue to receive the tax benefits.

[Barry]

I agree with the OP to a certain extent, but wouldn't it be better to undo the devolution and become a proper United Kingdom, once again?
How can it be fair to have the set-up which has currently evolved?
I would prefer to see the abolition of the Welsh Assembly, the Scottish Parliament and perhaps allow Northern Ireland some self-rule, as it seems a very different political case.
Even Cornwall has people who want their own parliament!

So, let's have one thing or the other, either 4 separate countries, with their own budgets, politics, laws and agendas, or a properly United Kingdom ruled from Westminster by a fair selection of MPs, according to their vote share.
Whilst we are at it, divorce ourselves from the EU, who are trying to absorb us into some unwanted super state - United States of EuropeReich.

[Major Sinic]

But it is populated to a fair extent by people who identify very strongly as part of a 'British Nation'. The idea you could just throw Northern Ireland out of the union is short-sighted at best. The idea that Northern Irish protestants belong to the Irish nation is frankly ridiculous.

Identifying with a mythical British nation does not make their cause right. I am very happy to base any such decision on a multi-national referendum, which must of course include the English. Such a referendum should only be held once the electorates of the different nationalities involved understand that English subsidies will no longer be paid to the smaller nations. I have no real objection to any or all the smaller nations remaining in the Union, provided they are economically self supporting, can not vote on English matters, and England has its own parliament separate from the UK parliament in Westminster.

But if we accept the idea of 'Britain' as a nation then they aren't handouts anymore than they are handouts to the northeast or southwest. If the scots, welsh and majority of people in northern ireland identify as being part of a british nation, then they should continue to receive the tax benefits.

This is beginning to remind me of 'Groundhog Day'. My contention is that Britain is not a single nation, but an artificial alliance of four separate nations, of which three are unjustifiably heavily subsidised by the the fourth. I suspect most of the national minorities would view themselves as Irish, Scottish, or Welsh before British. I certainly consider myself English first and foremost, as would many others born and bred in England.

To suggest that just because a Scot, Welsh or Irish person chooses to identify themselves as British, and that this is, in some way, a justification to continue to receive hand outs from the English taxpayer is a pretty lame arguement. All the Acts of Union acknowledge the national integrity of each of the four countries which form the Union. There is no suggestion that they should form one nation.

[JacquesMagique]

Identifying with a mythical British nation does not make their cause right. I am very happy to base any such decision on a multi-national referendum, which must of course include the English. Such a referendum should only be held once the electorates of the different nationalities involved understand that English subsidies will no longer be paid to the smaller nations. I have no real objection to any or all the smaller nations remaining in the Union, provided they are economically self supporting, can not vote on English matters, and England has its own parliament separate from the UK parliament in Westminster.

It's no more 'mythical' than the concept of an English nation.

This is beginning to remind me of 'Groundhog Day'. My contention is that Britain is not a single nation, but an artificial alliance of four separate nations, of which three are unjustifiably heavily subsidised by the the fourth. I suspect most of the national minorities would view themselves as Irish, Scottish, or Welsh before British. I certainly consider myself English first and foremost, as would many others born and bred in England.

You seriously think that 'Northern Ireland' is a nation??

To suggest that just because a Scot, Welsh or Irish person chooses to identify themselves as British, and that this is, in some way, a justification to continue to receive hand outs from the English taxpayer is a pretty lame arguement. All the Acts of Union acknowledge the national integrity of each of the four countries which form the Union. There is no suggestion that they should form one nation.

I think the problem is you don't really understand the concept of a nation entirely well.

[Midas]

It's no more 'mythical' than the concept of an English nation.

England has been a united (but factious!) nation for well over 1,000 years, since the 930s if my memory serves me correctly, despite attempts to split it asunder in the various wars that we've had in the 14th, 15th and 16th centuries, so in all practical terms there's little doubt it's one nation by now. Wales joined the union in the 13th century, Scotland at the beginning of the 18th and Northern Ireland at the start of the 19th century.

I think the problem is you don't really understand the concept of a nation entirely well.

Simplistically a nation is a politically organised body of people under a single government, but I guess the grey areas are in defining exactly what degree of autonomy the government of places like Northern Ireland do have and how much is needed to qualify them as 'nations'. Both logically and geographically NI has more in common with the Irish Republic than with England, and of the three co-members of England in the United Kingdom my personal view is that it has the least reason to stay.

[JacquesMagique]

England has been a united (but factious!) nation for well over 1,000 years, since the 930s if my memory serves me correctly, despite attempts to split it asunder in the various wars that we've had in the 14th, 15th and 16th centuries, so in all practical terms there's little doubt it's one nation by now. Wales joined the union in the 13th century, Scotland at the beginning of the 18th and Northern Ireland at the start of the 19th century.

Thanks for the history lesson.

Simplistically a nation is a politically organised body of people under a single government,

Not entirely sure where you got that particular definition from, i think you might be confusing 'nation' with 'state'.

but I guess the grey areas are in defining exactly what degree of autonomy the government of places like Northern Ireland do have and how much is needed to qualify them as 'nations'. Both logically and geographically NI has more in common with the Irish Republic than with England, and of the three co-members of England in the United Kingdom my personal view is that it has the least reason to stay.

:|

[Major Sinic]

It's no more 'mythical' than the concept of an English nation.

Of course it is. England is as much a nation as France or Spain. I refer to the myth of a single British nation simply because it is a term encompassing four nations, although I do accept your point that it is hard to consider Ulster as a separate nation, as in separate from the rest of Ireland. That is the result of a recently fought revolution, which resulted in the partition of a single country and the separation of a single nation. 'British' as a description of a single nation has no more validity than the use of the term 'European' to describe a single nation.

You seriously think that 'Northern Ireland' is a nation??

see above

I think the problem is you don't really understand the concept of a nation entirely well.

I forgive you your condescension. I consider a nation to be a community of people sharing the same history, culture, customs, language and political institutions. One might add to that, common descent. The four nations ( allow me the latitude here to include Ireland as a whole) under discussion each have their own history, customs, culture, language (albeit increasingly obsolete in some cases) and with the exception of England, each has its own parliament or political assembly. The latter even applies to the 'territory' of Ulster. Even historical descent varies substantially between the four nations. Yes I think the concept of a nation is fairly clear, and it is also fairly clear that we are an uneasy alliance of four separate and very different nations, operating under an umbrella called Britain.

I have no real objection for this to continue, but under a structure where other nations are unable to vote on English matters, England has its own Parliament either within Westminster or elsewhere, and England halts its foreign aid to the other three nations. In other words , each stands on its own fiscal feet.

[JacquesMagique]

I'm struggling to discern quite what nation you consider British people in Northern Ireland to belong to.

[Major Sinic]

I'm struggling to discern quite what nation you consider British people in Northern Ireland to belong to.

Do you know Jacques, so am I! But they ain't English, Welsh or Scottish so I guess they must be Irish. Sorry if that sounds a bit Irish!