We will have to feel pain

[Hookit]

We or the whole country as Mr Cameron says will feel pain. Taking that into account, I wonder what pain Mr Cameron will feel and his ministers and all MP's.

They are still getting perks which most of us do not they can still spend money our money without a receipt I accept it has been reduced however in my work it I claim back parking I have to have the proof as should all MPs no matter how small their claim is. They are making these claims so the administration is there so what harm would there be to add proof of purchase.

In Westminster, they wine and dine cheaper than it would cost you to have a Big Mac meal and we are paying them to eat?

All perks that need to be stopped I have to pay for my own lunch whilst at work and I am sure most of you do also.

STOP THE PERKS

[uncon]

Something that interests me is that we are now being governed by rich public school boys and apparently this is a bad thing. Often these families inherited wealth (and managed to keep it through war and recession) or their families made money in 'trade'.

I can see the benefit of ex-miners etc rising to become a voice in parliament, housewives, shopworkers etc all power to them, but can someone please explain to me why it is a bad thing to have people who know how to look after vast amounts of money, and often come from families who needed to look after their workforce, in charge of the budget?.

[Midas]

We or the whole country as Mr Cameron says will feel pain. Taking that into account, I wonder what pain Mr Cameron will feel and his ministers and all MP's.

They are still getting perks which most of us do not they can still spend money our money without a receipt I accept it has been reduced however in my work it I claim back parking I have to have the proof as should all MPs no matter how small their claim is. They are making these claims so the administration is there so what harm would there be to add proof of purchase.

In Westminster, they wine and dine cheaper than it would cost you to have a Big Mac meal and we are paying them to eat?

All perks that need to be stopped I have to pay for my own lunch whilst at work and I am sure most of you do also.

STOP THE PERKS

I quite appreciate that there's been widespread misuse of expenses in the recent past, but don't you think that it's rather petty to say that MPs shouldn't get any perks? They're doing a vitally important job and getting paid peanuts for it compared to the nearest equivalent in industry and commerce where the reimbursement of necessary expenses is standard for people who work or travel away from their home base. Many companies also provide such things as free or heavily subsidised meals in works canteens as well as other benefits such as group rates for private health care etc., for their employees, so why not for those who run the whole country?

[uncon]

I quite appreciate that there's been widespread misuse of expenses in the recent past, but don't you think that it's rather petty to say that MPs shouldn't get any perks? They're doing a vitally important job and getting paid peanuts for it compared to the nearest equivalent in industry and commerce where the reimbursement of necessary expenses is standard for people who work or travel away from their home base. Many companies also provide such things as free or heavily subsidised meals in works canteens as well as other benefits such as group rates for private health care etc., for their employees, so why not for those who run the whole country?

Because they can? This is public service. If you want to make money then go to where you make the money. One of the saddest things about David Laws is that he claimed because otherwise questions would be asked by the press and he didn't need or want that money. He genuinely wanted to make a difference to us...he already had a fortune


BUT...then the spin doctors got involved and we had the whole'We did not live like a couple' - that finished him for me...lies

[Owenmac]

I quite appreciate that there's been widespread misuse of expenses in the recent past, but don't you think that it's rather petty to say that MPs shouldn't get any perks? They're doing a vitally important job and getting paid peanuts for it compared to the nearest equivalent in industry and commerce where the reimbursement of necessary expenses is standard for people who work or travel away from their home base. Many companies also provide such things as free or heavily subsidised meals in works canteens as well as other benefits such as group rates for private health care etc., for their employees, so why not for those who run the whole country?

I think that it is often assumed that MPs take a pay cut to serve. In fact quite a number actually earn substantially more in parliament than they are able to outside.

I have no problem with some of the perks that MPs receive, but I do feel they should be subject to the same standards as all of us. The excuse that it was a mistake holds up under very few regimes, public or private.

[Midas]

I think that it is often assumed that MPs take a pay cut to serve. In fact quite a number actually earn substantially more in parliament than they are able to outside.

I have no problem with some of the perks that MPs receive, but I do feel they should be subject to the same standards as all of us. The excuse that it was a mistake holds up under very few regimes, public or private.

Hi Owenmac, and welcome to the Politics Forum!

To start with you might like to read the extended "Welcome" message in the Rules and Guidelines section of the forum, which also includes a full version of the Forum Rules.

Knowing what’s appropriate to say and post and what isn’t can save everyone a great deal of hassle, and as such you might also find the Guide to Good Posting useful. If you’re unfamiliar with the type of forum software we use here, a brief guide to using it can be found here. Please respect other people’s views here; they mightn’t be the same as yours, but that doesn’t necessarily mean they’re wrong, just that they're different.

If you need help with anything at all to do with the forum, feel free to contact me, or one of the other moderators, via a personal message; our details can be found here, listed as "Minister" and “Junior Minister”.

Perhaps you’d care to formally introduce yourself, which you can do here, or optionally tell us a little bit more about yourself here.

Incidentally, I totally agree with your comment that MPs should be subjected to exactly the same standard as everyone else! I look forward to reading more of your observations in due course - enjoy the forum

[Major Sinic]

Hi Owenmac, and welcome to the Politics Forum!

To start with you might like to read the extended "Welcome" message in the Rules and Guidelines section of the forum, which also includes a full version of the Forum Rules.

Knowing what’s appropriate to say and post and what isn’t can save everyone a great deal of hassle, and as such you might also find the Guide to Good Posting useful. If you’re unfamiliar with the type of forum software we use here, a brief guide to using it can be found here. Please respect other people’s views here; they mightn’t be the same as yours, but that doesn’t necessarily mean they’re wrong, just that they're different.

If you need help with anything at all to do with the forum, feel free to contact me, or one of the other moderators, via a personal message; our details can be found here, listed as "Minister" and “Junior Minister”.

Perhaps you’d care to formally introduce yourself, which you can do here, or optionally tell us a little bit more about yourself here.

Incidentally, I totally agree with your comment that MPs should be subjected to exactly the same standard as everyone else! I look forward to reading more of your observations in due course - enjoy the forum

Hi Owenmac. Welcome to the forum.

The biggest perk of all are the largely non-contributory, non-funded, index linked, final salary public sector pensions, and the first group to lose it will have to be members of parliament. If some of the most successful companies in the land can no longer afford final salary schemes, how on earth is the taxpayer expected to fund such over generous schemes for the corpulent public sector, and more to the point why should they.

The accrued liability of public sector pensions now exceeds Britains national debt, but of course it only appears as a liability in the year it is paid.

[Hookit]

Hi Owenmac. Welcome to the forum.

The biggest perk of all are the largely non-contributory, non-funded, index linked, final salary public sector pensions, and the first group to lose it will have to be members of parliament. If some of the most successful companies in the land can no longer afford final salary schemes, how on earth is the taxpayer expected to fund such over generous schemes for the corpulent public sector, and more to the point why should they.

The accrued liability of public sector pensions now exceeds Britains national debt, but of course it only appears as a liability in the year it is paid.

Final salery for the public sector ended some three years ago leaving only those who were 60 before 2012 elagable and had done 30 years service.

[Hookit]

I think that it is often assumed that MPs take a pay cut to serve. In fact quite a number actually earn substantially more in parliament than they are able to outside.

I have no problem with some of the perks that MPs receive, but I do feel they should be subject to the same standards as all of us. The excuse that it was a mistake holds up under very few regimes, public or private.

Unless perks are in lue of higher pay then no one should get perks, look at BA for example they are on strike for lose of perks and who pays for those perks it is not BA it is the BA customers why should I pay for staff to get free or cheap flights.

[Hookit]

I quite appreciate that there's been widespread misuse of expenses in the recent past, but don't you think that it's rather petty to say that MPs shouldn't get any perks? They're doing a vitally important job and getting paid peanuts for it compared to the nearest equivalent in industry and commerce where the reimbursement of necessary expenses is standard for people who work or travel away from their home base. Many companies also provide such things as free or heavily subsidised meals in works canteens as well as other benefits such as group rates for private health care etc., for their employees, so why not for those who run the whole country?

No it is not petty and they do not get paid peanuts, if they are ministers they get far more but lets look at my local MP who has now been booted out and replaced by a more senior labour MP for a safe seat. In his time in office he did very little like may MPs they do not attend Westminster daily for meetings that are important to the running of this country.
I think for what they do most MPs are over paid.

[Hookit]

Something that interests me is that we are now being governed by rich public school boys and apparently this is a bad thing. Often these families inherited wealth (and managed to keep it through war and recession) or their families made money in 'trade'.

I can see the benefit of ex-miners etc rising to become a voice in parliament, housewives, shopworkers etc all power to them, but can someone please explain to me why it is a bad thing to have people who know how to look after vast amounts of money, and often come from families who needed to look after their workforce, in charge of the budget?.

I do not have an issue with well off people going into parliment I would like to see the likes of Richard Branson there. I feel anyone should be able to go into parliment if they are up to the job however I often feel many I would not employ to make the tea.

I would also like to see an entrance test for those seeking to be and MP, because I am sure most would not be executive in bussiness.

[Midas]

Unless perks are in lue of higher pay then no one should get perks, look at BA for example they are on strike for lose of perks and who pays for those perks it is not BA it is the BA customers why should I pay for staff to get free or cheap flights.

Doesn't that very much depend on what you term 'a perk' though? Many of them, such as free or subsidised meals in a works canteen or crèche facilities to name just two, are considered as important in maintaining good staff relations, something which is for the benefit of all, staff and customers alike, and which applies equally whether the organisation is in the private or public sector. Likewise for MPs, I don't think it unreasonable that they have their accommodation and other reasonable out of pocket expenses paid for when they're in London on Parliamentary business; if you're in industry or commerce and you travel away from home such expenses have always been perfectly natural, so why not for government employees too? Clamp down too much and end up with no-one wanting the job at all!

[Major Sinic]

Final salery for the public sector ended some three years ago leaving only those who were 60 before 2012 elagable and had done 30 years service.

If that is the case I stand corrected. However it does not invalidate the fact that public sector pensions are largely unfunded, index linked, and are paid out of tax receipts for the year in which they are paid. They are of considerably greater benefit to the recipient, than the money purchase pensions which is the only option open to most private sector workers. They are therefore a substantial perk and a massive drain on the economic resources of the country, and need to be reined back.

I repeat that the total unfunded liability of public sector pensions substantially exceeds our public sector debt of over £770 billion.

[manrow]

If that is the case I stand corrected. However it does not invalidate the fact that public sector pensions are largely unfunded, index linked, and are paid out of tax receipts for the year in which they are paid. They are of considerably greater benefit to the recipient, than the money purchase pensions which is the only option open to most private sector workers. They are therefore a substantial perk and a massive drain on the economic resources of the country, and need to be reined back.

I repeat that the total unfunded liability of public sector pensions substantially exceeds our public sector debt of over £770 billion.

Taxpayers Alliance quote that over 20% of council tax income goes straight out again on pensions!

[Midas]

I repeat that the total unfunded liability of public sector pensions substantially exceeds our public sector debt of over £770 billion.

Does anyone know who it was who introduced the concept of unfunded public sector pensions to the UK?

[Major Sinic]

Does anyone know who it was who introduced the concept of unfunded public sector pensions to the UK?

The first non-contributory public sector pension was awarded in 1684, when a Port Authority official retired, and his replacement was offered a salary of £80 p.a provided he paid half of it to his predecessor.

It started to become the norm in the 1760s, when naval officers who were not at sea were on 'half-pay'. This continued even when they were too old to ever go to sea again, and established the principle of a 50% pension.

A fifty percent pension was extended to the Civil Service in the 1850s but I do not know who was responsible.

[Hookit]

Doesn't that very much depend on what you term 'a perk' though? Many of them, such as free or subsidised meals in a works canteen or crèche facilities to name just two, are considered as important in maintaining good staff relations, something which is for the benefit of all, staff and customers alike, and which applies equally whether the organisation is in the private or public sector. Likewise for MPs, I don't think it unreasonable that they have their accommodation and other reasonable out of pocket expenses paid for when they're in London on Parliamentary business; if you're in industry or commerce and you travel away from home such expenses have always been perfectly natural, so why not for government employees too? Clamp down too much and end up with no-one wanting the job at all!

If expenses does not have a measure of profit then thats fine. As for meals ect no when should they get a cheap meal the cost has to come from somewhere why should the customer have to foot the bill for these people having a meal if they were not at work they have to eat what is the differance? Should we pay for their meals at home and when they go on hoilday.

[Hookit]

If that is the case I stand corrected. However it does not invalidate the fact that public sector pensions are largely unfunded, index linked, and are paid out of tax receipts for the year in which they are paid. They are of considerably greater benefit to the recipient, than the money purchase pensions which is the only option open to most private sector workers. They are therefore a substantial perk and a massive drain on the economic resources of the country, and need to be reined back.

I repeat that the total unfunded liability of public sector pensions substantially exceeds our public sector debt of over £770 billion.

Some public sector pensions are not funded but in the past that was part of their pay as it they are low paid and in many cases still are over 70% of civil servants earn less than 16K a year.

Public sector who work in the local government do pay towards their pension I know as a photographer with the police 7% of all my pay every month goes towards my pension plus my NI and tax etc. A police officer pays 11.5% to his pension.

[Hookit]

If that is the case I stand corrected. However it does not invalidate the fact that public sector pensions are largely unfunded, index linked, and are paid out of tax receipts for the year in which they are paid. They are of considerably greater benefit to the recipient, than the money purchase pensions which is the only option open to most private sector workers. They are therefore a substantial perk and a massive drain on the economic resources of the country, and need to be reined back.

I repeat that the total unfunded liability of public sector pensions substantially exceeds our public sector debt of over £770 billion.

Many in the public sector do pay towards their pensions, the problem is the money has been poorly invested. As a police photographer I pay 7% of my pay towards my pension and it is no loger final salary. The Police pay 11.5% .

My wife moved from her role as an executive with the civil service doing the same job and we are now better off by over 25K a year and I feel it is because the public sector from my experiance is paid lower than the private sector. My wife was head hunted by her company and it is one of the areas that went to the private sector so you are still footing the bill and she earns farc more.

[Major Sinic]

Many in the public sector do pay towards their pensions, the problem is the money has been poorly invested. As a police photographer I pay 7% of my pay towards my pension and it is no loger final salary. The Police pay 11.5% .

My wife moved from her role as an executive with the civil service doing the same job and we are now better off by over 25K a year and I feel it is because the public sector from my experiance is paid lower than the private sector. My wife was head hunted by her company and it is one of the areas that went to the private sector so you are still footing the bill and she earns farc more.

On average the public sector receive a salary some 5% higher than an equivalent private sector worker, and receive considerably better pension benefits.

Whilst the police pension scheme may be partially contributory, it is still heavily subsidised by the taxpayer. Police officers also qualify for a full pension at the age of fifty, whereas the vast majority of private sector workers with money purchase schemes are lucky to be able to retire at 65.

[Hookit]

On average the public sector receive a salary some 5% higher than an equivalent private sector worker, and receive considerably better pension benefits.

Whilst the police pension scheme may be partially contributory, it is still heavily subsidised by the taxpayer. Police officers also qualify for a full pension at the age of fifty, whereas the vast majority of private sector workers with money purchase schemes are lucky to be able to retire at 65.

It is not age 50 it is 30 years service for full pension for police officers and who else pays 11.5% towards their pension plus NI etc. And where have you come up with 5% more for the public sector than the private sector that is rubbish. And no the police pension is not heavily subsidised by the tax payer.

[Midas]

It is not age 50 it is 30 years service for full pension for police officers and who else pays 11.5% towards their pension plus NI etc. And where have you come up with 5% more for the public sector than the private sector that is rubbish. And no the police pension is not heavily subsidised by the tax payer.

No-one outside of the public sector has a pension after 30 years of service, for the vast majority of people it's more like 45 years. As for the pay differential, check the figures from the Office of National Statistics - quote off their web site "The percentage difference between the median level of full-time earnings in the public sector (£539 per week) and the private sector (£465 per week) widened over the year to April 2009, following annual increases of 3.1 per cent and 1.0 per cent respectively." - and many reports such as this one, picked randomly from a Google search - Record gap between public and private sector pay - Telegraph - quote "Workers in the public sector are now being paid more than £2,000 extra a year compared with employees in the private sector, after public sector pay continued to race ahead of inflation."

If I were you I'd check your facts before you say things like "that is rubbish"!

[Major Sinic]

It is not age 50 it is 30 years service for full pension for police officers and who else pays 11.5% towards their pension plus NI etc. And where have you come up with 5% more for the public sector than the private sector that is rubbish. And no the police pension is not heavily subsidised by the tax payer.

A police officer is unable to retire on full pension (unless through ill health) before the age of 50. To qualify for a full pension thirty years service is required. The average age of retirement for a police officer is 51 years of age, at a time when the the age at which the old age pension becomes payable is rising to 68. Any more hairs to split?

The police officers contribution to his pension may be 11.5%, but the cost of providing that pension equates to 35% of pay. According to figures released by the PPI (Pensions Policy Institute) the Home Office had to contribute £2 billion pounds in 2008/9 to finance the shortfall in police pensions. Many police officers will claim their gold plated pensions for longer than they have worked!

In answer to your question most private sector employees would give their eye teeth to be able to contribute just 11.5 % of income in order to get a pension of the generosity of the police pension scheme after just thirty years service. Most of them either contribute far more, face the likelihood of working well into their seventies or the prospect of poverty in their old age.

Average earning of civil servants, NHS staff, council officials and other state employed workers was £22405 in 2008/9 compared with £20998 in the private sector. This represents a 7% difference, compared with 3% in 2007/08 averaging 5% on average over two years. Public sector incomes are also rising at over 2.8% per annum compared with 1.1% in the private sector. These figures were obtained by the Sunday Times from the ONS in January of this year, and verified by Nigel Hawkes of Straight Statistics.

You may also be interested to know that productivity in the public sector fell by 3.4% since 1997 whilst private sector productivity increased by 28% in the same period. The average retirement age on full pension in the public sector is just 58 years of age (Same source). This is where I have 'come up' with these figures. Just because you don't like the truth does not make it rubbish.

Public sector pensions are simply unsustainable. The country can not afford them. The corpulent, feather bedded, first class only public sector gravy train is grinding to a halt. Quite rightly many will have to get off, and others move to economy.

[Hookit]

A police officer is unable to retire on full pension (unless through ill health) before the age of 50. To qualify for a full pension thirty years service is required. The average age of retirement for a police officer is 51 years of age, at a time when the the age at which the old age pension becomes payable is rising to 68. Any more hairs to split?

The police officers contribution to his pension may be 11.5%, but the cost of providing that pension equates to 35% of pay. According to figures released by the PPI (Pensions Policy Institute) the Home Office had to contribute £2 billion pounds in 2008/9 to finance the shortfall in police pensions. Many police officers will claim their gold plated pensions for longer than they have worked!

In answer to your question most private sector employees would give their eye teeth to be able to contribute just 11.5 % of income in order to get a pension of the generosity of the police pension scheme after just thirty years service. Most of them either contribute far more, face the likelihood of working well into their seventies or the prospect of poverty in their old age.

Average earning of civil servants, NHS staff, council officials and other state employed workers was £22405 in 2008/9 compared with £20998 in the private sector. This represents a 7% difference, compared with 3% in 2007/08 averaging 5% on average over two years. Public sector incomes are also rising at over 2.8% per annum compared with 1.1% in the private sector. These figures were obtained by the Sunday Times from the ONS in January of this year, and verified by Nigel Hawkes of Straight Statistics.

You may also be interested to know that productivity in the public sector fell by 3.4% since 1997 whilst private sector productivity increased by 28% in the same period. The average retirement age on full pension in the public sector is just 58 years of age (Same source). This is where I have 'come up' with these figures. Just because you don't like the truth does not make it rubbish.

Public sector pensions are simply unsustainable. The country can not afford them. The corpulent, feather bedded, first class only public sector gravy train is grinding to a halt. Quite rightly many will have to get off, and others move to economy.

Well we will have to agree to disagree as I feel you make it up as you go along I have stated facts and a police officer has to have 30 years service in for full pension and as more officers are joining 25 and older that means they cannot retire at age 50 on full pension it is not splitting hairs it is fact.

[Major Sinic]

Well we will have to agree to disagree as I feel you make it up as you go along I have stated facts and a police officer has to have 30 years service in for full pension and as more officers are joining 25 and older that means they cannot retire at age 50 on full pension it is not splitting hairs it is fact.

I have provided my sources. That they exist is indisputable. Your claim that I am making anything up is therefore ridiculous. Read my first paragraph and you will discover that I unambiguously acknowledge that a police officer requires just thirty years service to claim a full pension. The average age that a police officer retires is 51. These are facts, facts which you don't like because they don't fit in with what you want to believe.

[Hookit]

I have provided my sources. That they exist is indisputable. Your claim that I am making anything up is therefore ridiculous. Read my first paragraph and you will discover that I unambiguously acknowledge that a police officer requires just thirty years service to claim a full pension. The average age that a police officer retires is 51. These are facts, facts which you don't like because they don't fit in with what you want to believe.

Complete tripe

[Major Sinic]

Complete tripe

There speaks an ignorant man defeated on every erroneous point he made.

[Hookit]

There speaks an ignorant man defeated on every erroneous point he made.

Far from defeated but I know when one cannot educate pork.

[soloman]

I quite appreciate that there's been widespread misuse of expenses in the recent past, but don't you think that it's rather petty to say that MPs shouldn't get any perks? They're doing a vitally important job and getting paid peanuts for it compared to the nearest equivalent in industry and commerce where the reimbursement of necessary expenses is standard for people who work or travel away from their home base. Many companies also provide such things as free or heavily subsidised meals in works canteens as well as other benefits such as group rates for private health care etc., for their employees, so why not for those who run the whole country?

You win this argument Midas!

[Major Sinic]

Far from defeated but I know when one cannot educate pork.

Please disprove any salient point I have made providing source evidence (as I have done). In other words put up or shut up.

[Hookit]

Please disprove any salient point I have made providing source evidence (as I have done). In other words put up or shut up.

I have put up I said Police Officers do not all retire at age 50 as you posted and it is 30 years service for a full pension you then said I was splitting hairs no I was being factual.
I have wasted far to much time with you on this I intend to waste no more all you have said can and is wrong but you will not admit you want it your way or no way well i refuse to play your silly game any longer.

[Major Sinic]

I have put up I said Police Officers do not all retire at age 50 as you posted and it is 30 years service for a full pension you then said I was splitting hairs no I was being factual.
I have wasted far to much time with you on this I intend to waste no more all you have said can and is wrong but you will not admit you want it your way or no way well i refuse to play your silly game any longer.

Every point I have made has been supported by credible independent third party
sources. I said police could retire at 50 on a full pension, provided they had thirty years service. As it happens the average retirement age is 51. So you are undoubtedly splitting hairs. I have provided considerable further information on the inequality and disparity between public and private sector pay and pensions, which you dismiss as 'utter tripe' despite independent evidence in support of my statements.

Frankly Hookit, if you had a brain cell it would have died of loneliness.

[AMGINGLES]

I think we can accept that we in this country are servants of special interest and our tax system is designed to filter money through select companys and corperations in exchange for various "services" to Bilderberg members and the ruling classes. The tax system also provides for the bourgoise lifestyle of select immigrants to give the false sense of equality. The pakistani and indian doctors in this country being prime example. Alas we as it has said in the bible must pay ceasar what ceasar asks.

[Hookit]

Every point I have made has been supported by credible independent third party
sources. I said police could retire at 50 on a full pension, provided they had thirty years service. As it happens the average retirement age is 51. So you are undoubtedly splitting hairs. I have provided considerable further information on the inequality and disparity between public and private sector pay and pensions, which you dismiss as 'utter tripe' despite independent evidence in support of my statements.

Frankly Hookit, if you had a brain cell it would have died of loneliness.

Ah now we have found your true level insults and changing your mind this is what you put Whilst the police pension scheme may be partially contributory, it is still heavily subsidised by the taxpayer. Police officers also qualify for a full pension at the age of fifty, whereas the vast majority of private sector workers with money purchase schemes are lucky to be able to retire at 65.
I rest my case.

[Midas]

Public sector employees work nine years less than their private sector counterparts but are paid 30% more, according to a think-tank.

Authors of the research say it tells a tale of two Britains - a state sector awash with taxpayers' cash while the rest of the economy struggles to stay afloat.

Public sector workers enjoy better pay than those in the private sector, as well as better pensions, shorter hours, and earlier retirement.

Over their lifetimes, those in the private sector work 23% longer - equivalent to an extra nine years and ten weeks - than public sector employees. This is thanks to a combination of shorter hours, more time off and earlier retirement.

The findings explode once and for all the old idea that public sector workers have better job security and gold-plated pensions because they have lower salaries.

They will be seized on by the Coalition Government, which has warned that the bloated state sector has been artificially insulated from the recession and is in line for massive spending cuts.

The report, by centre-Right think tank Policy Exchange, also found that the chance of being made compulsorily redundant in the civil service is an astonishing 0.00007%.

The think tank discovered that, based on Cabinet Office information, there were fewer than 100 compulsory redundancies between 2005 and 2008 out of a total of 525,000 civil servants, this is less than 0.00007% of the workforce a year.

Generous pension schemes in the state sector are now worth up to 15% on top of salary, the report says, while public sector pay costs have soared by more than a third in real terms over the last seven years - three times faster than in the private sector.

The report uses figures from the Office for National Statistics to show that more than seven million people are now employed in the public sector, over a million more than official figures suggest.

The full story is available from here : Public sector workers work nine years less | This is Money

[manrow]

An example of how the former Labour government created jobs in the public sector, I would highlight with the example of Hereford and Worcester county councils, where I was living until 3 years ago.

The 1974 review created Hereford and Worcester combined county council, and the single county hall was built on the outskirts of Worcester. In 1998, separate Hereford and Worcester councils were created once more. This action meant that very approximately the old county hall building was only half full after the separation. In the succeeding 9 years until I left in 2007, the population at county hall again filled the building and some sections (such as education inspectors) were having to use outside buildings such as spare rooms in schools as their office desks!

You can only imagine the possible savings in slimming down just this one county council to what it was in 1998, and multiply that by the niumber of councils in this country!

[Hookit]

Public Sector cannot retire nine years earlier than others. There was an old argeement scrapped about five years ago that meant in you age and service =85 you could retire in the employer agreed. now public sector workers retirement age is the same as everyone else. With the exception of if you are 60 before 2012 and have 30 years service in you can retire at 60.

It is easy to target the public sector and maybe it is out of jelousey by those who post on here and of course we can find stats and reports showing how bad it is hower I notice on some of the jobs listed there are no post any longer in the public sector for example paiter and decorator they are all contracted out after going out to tender. I looked at cleaners yes thay also are now private contracts. Maybe there are the odd council still employing their own painters and cleaners however in most AUTHORITIES INCLUDING THE POLICE THEY HAVE BEEN IN THE HANDS OF THE PRIVATE SECTOR AT LEAST 10 YEARS.

When I set up this thread we will have to feel the pain maybe this report from this weekend may be of interest to you.

Well good to see this government is leading by example

Almost £18,000 has been spent topping up the Government wine cellar since the General Election, it has emerged - leading to calls that the entire collection should be sold off to raise money.
Foreign Office minister Henry Bellingham revealed that Government Hospitality, which manages the cellar, had spent £17,698 on new stock since May 6 - bringing the total value to £864,000 - though he insisted the standard practice of buying wines young saved money for the taxpayer.

[Hookit]

What all these facts fail to show is just how much it does cost us when public sector goes out to the private sector, they compare wages but they do not show the true cost.
When the public sector contracts the private sector to say paint a building it is not only the cost of the painter to take into account there is profit on the paint and of course the contractors want their share of the honey pot and boy do they. We have only to look at consultants employed from the private sector £1,000 a day.

So take off the blinkers and look at the true cost which is not only the staff wages.

[crazylilting]

I think we are aiming for a balance. We want to attract top people to run our country, yet we don't want them to do better then ourselves.... If our country was prospering I don't think we would blink an eye lid at the cost of the wine they drink. Nor would of any of the expense scandals even been a scandal. What we want is a well run government that provides a platform for the whole country to do well. I don't think anyone can disagree with that. So when that is not happening of course we are going to complain about how much it is costing us to have a poorly run country. I say let them get down to business and don't bog them down with details. If they prove to be as incompetent as the last lot we will simply need to look at more cuts to their packages.

[Midas]

Public Sector cannot retire nine years earlier than others. There was an old argeement scrapped about five years ago that meant in you age and service =85 you could retire in the employer agreed. now public sector workers retirement age is the same as everyone else. With the exception of if you are 60 before 2012 and have 30 years service in you can retire at 60.

[ ... ]

All I can say in response is that the figures in the report I quoted was taken from statistics provided by the government itself; the last Labour government that is......

[Major Sinic]

Public Sector cannot retire nine years earlier than others. There was an old argeement scrapped about five years ago that meant in you age and service =85 you could retire in the employer agreed. now public sector workers retirement age is the same as everyone else. With the exception of if you are 60 before 2012 and have 30 years service in you can retire at 60.

It is easy to target the public sector and maybe it is out of jelousey by those who post on here and of course we can find stats and reports showing how bad it is hower I notice on some of the jobs listed there are no post any longer in the public sector for example paiter and decorator they are all contracted out after going out to tender. I looked at cleaners yes thay also are now private contracts. Maybe there are the odd council still employing their own painters and cleaners however in most AUTHORITIES INCLUDING THE POLICE THEY HAVE BEEN IN THE HANDS OF THE PRIVATE SECTOR AT LEAST 10 YEARS.

I would think that many private sector workers are jealous, and with just cause, of the over-generous, gold-plated pensions being received by the public sector, pensions they are paying for out of their lower private sector wages, with pensions they have to fund themselves.

In the Telegraph we read today, that the average retirement age of police officers in Wiltshire and Norfolk is just 49 years of age, whilst in Tayside it is even younger at 48 years of age on a full, final salary pension. The average police officer will claim his over-generous pension for longer than he was paid a salary. Some forces have more pensioners on the payroll than serving police officers.

As Lord Oakeshott, LibDem Treasury spokesman in the Lords who obtained the above figures, said 'No system can survive people being able to draw pensions for longer than they worked'.

Police pensions cost the tax payer over £2 billion in 2008/9 (figures from the ONS)

[Hookit]

All I can say in response is that the figures in the report I quoted was taken from statistics provided by the government itself; the last Labour government that is......

I know this to be right as I am one of the few who can still retire at 60 and I will retire in August this year all being well. During my working life in the army I have been shot at blown up and assaulted. As an imaging officer with the police I have been injured five times on duty by being attacked by members of the public. And I am not the exception my son who is a serving officer has been now for 9 years in the course of his duty he as been assaulted far more then myself and he has suffered a broken arm and hand whilst carrying out his duty protecting you lot who feel the have an easy ride.

What I need to ask what have you done for this country how much of your blood has stained our streets. How many of your friends died in your hands in Northern ireland and the Falklands.

Those who do the least for this country complain the most.

In addition I have in my own time under the police banner organsied and run a national event for youngsters under the age of 18.

[Major Sinic]

I know this to be right as I am one of the few who can still retire at 60 and I will retire in August this year all being well. During my working life in the army I have been shot at blown up and assaulted. As an imaging officer with the police I have been injured five times on duty by being attacked by members of the public. And I am not the exception my son who is a serving officer has been now for 9 years in the course of his duty he as been assaulted far more then myself and he has suffered a broken arm and hand whilst carrying out his duty protecting you lot who feel the have an easy ride.

What I need to ask what have you done for this country how much of your blood has stained our streets. How many of your friends died in your hands in Northern ireland and the Falklands.

Those who do the least for this country complain the most.

In addition I have in my own time under the police banner organsied and run a national event for youngsters under the age of 18.

Please don't try and draw comparisons between our military armed forces, and the police. There are few similarities. The police are a civil force represented by the equivalent of a trade union, who are comparatively well paid, enjoy comparative safety in their work, and receive a full gold-plated pension after just thirty years service. The vast majority face no more danger on a day to day basis than a postman!

Before you get so morally high and mighty, having served as a member of our military whilst to be applauded, was a voluntary decision made by you so do drop the emotional imagery of blood staining the streets. What do you want? A chocolate medal? How many citizens' blood stains our streets because they were mugged whilst the average copper was safely out of the way parked up in his Panda, or slurping coffee back at the station or one of the many working his ticket on sick leave.

And yes I was a commissioned army officer, but I don't think that this gives me any rights over any other citizen, to comment on and complain about the feather bedded arrangements enjoyed by the police. Nor will I go on like some cardboard hero about my actions or injuries.

[Hookit]

Please don't try and draw comparisons between our military armed forces, and the police. There are few similarities. The police are a civil force represented by the equivalent of a trade union, who are comparatively well paid, enjoy comparative safety in their work, and receive a full gold-plated pension after just thirty years service. The vast majority face no more danger on a day to day basis than a postman!

Before you get so morally high and mighty, having served as a member of our military whilst to be applauded, was a voluntary decision made by you so do drop the emotional imagery of blood staining the streets. What do you want? A chocolate medal? How many citizens' blood stains our streets because they were mugged whilst the average copper was safely out of the way parked up in his Panda, or slurping coffee back at the station or one of the many working his ticket on sick leave.

And yes I was a commissioned army officer, but I don't think that this gives me any rights over any other citizen, to comment on and complain about the feather bedded arrangements enjoyed by the police. Nor will I go on like some cardboard hero about my actions or injuries.

Blood on our streets I was not talking about my army service. Being a commisioned officer does not tell me if you were a front line soldier or paymaster.
How many ops did you do how many times did you come under fire?

If you take a look you will see it is blood on our streets i.e whilst with the police force and if you look you will see my injuries and my sons are as a result of serving the british public assaulted by the British public.

In the UK as a whole, it is 51. The figures do not include police officers who retire on health grounds, or because of injuries in the line of duty. It seems people on here only show what they want to show to win their argument.
The link is the full story not snippets.
But lets ask how old do you feel a police officer should be fighting on our streets as happpens daily in this country to day. I was last assaulted in May of this year spent three days in hospital a week at home then back on duty and I am 59.

The public-sector pensions crisis facing the coalition - Telegraph

[Hookit]

Major, if you believe this you are a fool. and have no idea. Major thinks The vast majority face no more danger on a day to day basis than a postman! Major you life in cockoo land.

I will say no more on this subject as one cannot educate pork.

[Major Sinic]

Major, if you believe this you are a fool. and have no idea. Major thinks The vast majority face no more danger on a day to day basis than a postman! Major you life in cockoo land.

I will say no more on this subject as one cannot educate pork.

And as I say if you ever had a brain cell it would have died of loneliness!

[Major Sinic]

Blood on our streets I was not talking about my army service. Being a commisioned officer does not tell me if you were a front line soldier or paymaster.
How many ops did you do how many times did you come under fire?

If you take a look you will see it is blood on our streets i.e whilst with the police force and if you look you will see my injuries and my sons are as a result of serving the british public assaulted by the British public.

In the UK as a whole, it is 51. The figures do not include police officers who retire on health grounds, or because of injuries in the line of duty. It seems people on here only show what they want to show to win their argument.
The link is the full story not snippets.
But lets ask how old do you feel a police officer should be fighting on our streets as happpens daily in this country to day. I was last assaulted in May of this year spent three days in hospital a week at home then back on duty and I am 59.

The public-sector pensions crisis facing the coalition - Telegraph

Unlike you, I do not consider it necessary to present my military record on a political debating forum. I am not seeking any further recognition and it is not relevant in either your or my case, to the discussion about our national police forces. It was you who referred to being shot at, blown up and assaulted whilst in the British Army. Aldershot can get quite dangerous on a Saturday night, I do agree! That is probably why you will never find a copper there.

A police officer does not have to stay on the streets until he is 59, he should be redeployed into administrative or clerical work. The common practice of retiring on a full pension and then coming back as either a civilian employee or contractor should be outlawed forthwith.

I have referred to the average retirement age of a police officer as 51 in several previous posts. Do try to keep up and please stop splitting hairs.

[Hookit]

Police Officers injured on duty 3,267 in 2008-09. 12 0fficers killed whilst on duty in 2009 I cannot find one postman killed in the line of duty over thaty period.

In fact the numbers must be so low I cant find any stats for posttal workers injured or killed in the line of duty. I know some postal workers are assaulted but the number must be so low as not recorded.



Police Roll of Honour Trust - Roll of Honour for 2009

[Hookit]

Unlike you, I do not consider it necessary to present my military record on a political debating forum. I am not seeking any further recognition and it is not relevant in either your or my case, to the discussion about our national police forces. It was you who referred to being shot at, blown up and assaulted whilst in the British Army. Aldershot can get quite dangerous on a Saturday night, I do agree! That is probably why you will never find a copper there.

A police officer does not have to stay on the streets until he is 59, he should be redeployed into administrative or clerical work. The common practice of retiring on a full pension and then coming back as either a civilian employee or contractor should be outlawed forthwith.

I have referred to the average retirement age of a police officer as 51 in several previous posts. Do try to keep up and please stop splitting hairs.

If this is the case why did you state you were a commisioned officer? I did not say what rank I held nor my decorations which i could have.

I was simply trying to show that what you see from the outside is not always what it fact.

Most admin jobs are now carried out by support staff and I agree with you about officers retiring and returning as support steff I feel that is wrong and I know of job discriptions where it has been worded as not to allow anyone other than a police officer to get that job and that does suck and I am agaisnt that 100%.

As for having the choice of when you can stand down from front line policing that is rubbish.

[Major Sinic]

Police Officers injured on duty 3,267 in 2008-09. 12 0fficers killed whilst on duty in 2009 I cannot find one postman killed in the line of duty over thaty period.

In fact the numbers must be so low I cant find any stats for posttal workers injured or killed in the line of duty. I know some postal workers are assaulted but the number must be so low as not recorded.



Police Roll of Honour Trust - Roll of Honour for
2009

I remember when the police brutally attacked country people peacefully demonstrating against injustice five or six years ago, they claimed 37 police officers where injured. A check by the Telegraph with all the local hospitals showed no treatment or admissions of a police officer! Is this the type of injury you are talking about.

Anyway, once they are off 'active' duty and doing clerical or filing work up to the age of 60 or 65, so they actually earn their pension, they will be nice and safe just like a postman, won't they. Do keep trying to educate pork!