Students to face higher costs as graduate tax proposed

[soloman]

So Vince Cable informed us yesterday.

Personally I would prefer GOOD degree education to return to being free at the point of delivery; in my opinion there are too many ex-polytechnics delivering sub-standard courses.

BBC News - Students to face higher costs as graduate tax proposed

If we want the next generation to be well-qualified we need to pay for it as a very realistic investment.

[Midas]

So Vince Cable informed us yesterday.

Personally I would prefer GOOD degree education to return to being free at the point of delivery; in my opinion there are too many ex-polytechnics delivering sub-standard courses.

BBC News - Students to face higher costs as graduate tax proposed

If we want the next generation to be well-qualified we need to pay for it as a very realistic investment.

I quite agree. All education should be 'free' in an ideal world, although if there are to be any charges levied it's right they should only be for higher education, which is where people make a choice about their future career.

However as you rightly say, there are far too many ex-polytechnics offering pretty useless degree courses, mainly so they could meet the last government's artificially imposed 'targets'. Having run companies for almost 30 years I've seen the end results of our education system too many times to count, and in general it hasn't been a pretty sight, with the overall standard of job applicants, graduate as well as non-graduate, slipping alarmingly.

What we need is a return to the polytechnic system with a good assessment of pupils' abilities before they leave school, coupled with a massive increase in apprenticeship schemes to both replace those useless degree courses and provide industry and commerce with suitable and properly trained employees, not the all too common semi-literate who seem to have no idea what they're good at or what they want from life.

[manrow]

I quite agree. All education should be 'free' in an ideal world, although if there are to be any charges levied it's right they should only be for higher education, which is where people make a choice about their future career.

However as you rightly say, there are far too many ex-polytechnics offering pretty useless degree courses, mainly so they could meet the last government's artificially imposed 'targets'. Having run companies for almost 30 years I've seen the end results of our education system too many times to count, and in general it hasn't been a pretty sight, with the overall standard of job applicants, graduate as well as non-graduate, slipping alarmingly.

What we need is a return to the polytechnic system with a good assessment of pupils' abilities before they leave school, coupled with a massive increase in apprenticeship schemes to both replace those useless degree courses and provide industry and commerce with suitable and properly trained employees, not the all too common semi-literate who seem to have no idea what they're good at or what they want from life.

First class response Midas; will anyone listen who can change things?

[Opinionated]

I've been doing a bit of reading on the coalitions plans for higher education and it seems to be an area of the Lib Dems manifesto the Tories are allowing to come to the fore. I find myself largely in agreement with it.

From The Guardian "Graduate tax and private colleges at heart of higher education blueprint"

The government signalled the biggest shakeup of Britain's universities in a generation today, with a blueprint for higher education in which the highest-earning graduates would pay extra taxes to fund degrees, private universities would flourish and struggling institutions would be allowed to fail.

Vince Cable, the cabinet minister responsible for higher education, also raised the prospect of quotas to ensure state school pupils were guaranteed places at Britain's best universities, breaking the private school stranglehold on Oxbridge.

Comparing the existing system of tuition fees to a "poll tax" that graduates paid regardless of their income, the skills secretary argued it was fairer for people to pay according to their earning power.

He said: "It surely can't be right that a teacher or care worker or research scientist is expected to pay the same graduate contribution as a top commercial lawyer or surgeon or City analyst whose graduate premium is so much bigger."

Can't really argue with any of that.

This bit I found interesting as a possible signal to potential rifts in the government - watch this space basically.

Phasing out tuition fees is a crucial part of Liberal Democrat education policy. Any moves by the coalition to raise fees – or even keep the status quo – could prove divisive. Lib Dem MPs will be allowed to abstain from any vote on fees under the coalition agreement.

I don't however agree with the emphasis on private Universities and that the resulting competition would be beneficial.

The government wants to increase the number of private companies offering higher education that is not subsidised by the state. This increased competition would mean some publicly funded universities could struggle to recruit enough students and be forced to close. Experts said at least 20 universities could close in the next few years if this were allowed to happen. At least five universities are known to be on an "at risk" list because they are heavily indebted

Would it not be better to ask private to set up burseries etc.?

There's also some concern that it will take time for enough revenue to come in from a graduate tax for it to pay for an intake of students.

But to come back to something Midas said in his post:

What we need is a return to the polytechnic system with a good assessment of pupils' abilities before they leave school, coupled with a massive increase in apprenticeship schemes to both replace those useless degree courses and provide industry and commerce with suitable and properly trained employees, not the all too common semi-literate who seem to have no idea what they're good at or what they want from life.

Education from foundation right through to higher should never be about teaching people their place in society or producing worker drones, it should be equally about expanding the mind and experiences as preparing for the world of work.

[manrow]

But to come back to something Midas said in his post:
Education from foundation right through to higher should never be about teaching people their place in society or producing worker drones, it should be equally about expanding the mind and experiences as preparing for the world of work.

In general I would agree with your view; but can that be achieved by a student remaining at their home address? One of the important parts of university life is learning to live in a new community and structure?

[Midas]

But to come back to something Midas said in his post:

What we need is a return to the polytechnic system with a good assessment of pupils' abilities before they leave school, coupled with a massive increase in apprenticeship schemes to both replace those useless degree courses and provide industry and commerce with suitable and properly trained employees, not the all too common semi-literate who seem to have no idea what they're good at or what they want from life.

Education from foundation right through to higher should never be about teaching people their place in society or producing worker drones, it should be equally about expanding the mind and experiences as preparing for the world of work.

Are the two not synonymous? Each and every one us has limits to our abilities, and like it or not, those abilities determine where we'll end up in life, socially and financially. I agree 100% with you in that "[education] should be equally about expanding the mind and experiences as preparing for the world of work", however no matter how much assessment and targeted education people receive, there'll still be the same stratas of ability in society, maybe at a slightly higher level overall and with more knowledge spread about, but if someone's only got the intelligence and aptitude to be 'a worker drone', surely that's where he'll end up regardless of anything else, and where he'll probably be happiest.

[Barry]

In many jobs a university education is pointless.
What is required is an ability to read, write, learn and follow instructions.

My first job was to mix inks to match a colour to a customer's specification. This is now done by a computer, of course.
My training for the job, was in job, and similar to an apprenticeship although not as long.

We need keen people, willing to work in an industry or service which can make a profit, through foreign trade if possible. The university education may be of use for some jobs, but totally unnecessary in others. Some highly specialised applications in industry can only be learned in the job.

Nearly every town in the UK which had a public swimming bath is now deemed to be a University Town. Who are they kidding?

[crazylilting]

Lets look at mathematics. Math's higher learning has no real world application in the short term. You have someone who invents a mathematical model and it sits on some shelf as a published work for years until someone finds an application for it. But when some one does find some use for it, it can some times change the way things are done in a profound way. My partner has a phd in maths, and used to do research, even though her work is over a decade old she still gets people contacting her because her work was decades beyond what the real world can use. Brilliant minds need to be supported and encouraged. Just to turn out productive people for a work force is such a narrow minded view of the world around us. We may as well go back to the dark ages with that kind of thinking.

Some education should be paid for by students as it directly affects their wage packages, some education should be paid for by the government as it benefits all of us but doesn't necessarily benefit the one being educated monetarily.

[DC]

Wouldn't this create an environment where those higher achievers, but perhaps poorer, school leavers would shy away from better courses in favour of cheaper degrees?

[Midas]

Wouldn't this create an environment where those higher achievers, but perhaps poorer, school leavers would shy away from better courses in favour of cheaper degrees?

That would depend on whether the repayable loans made to university students by the government were still in place or not; to stop these would, I think, be disastrous. Currently these are repayable out of future taxable earnings at the rate of (I think) 9% of any earnings over £15,000 a year, at a current interest rate of 0%.

[manrow]

That would depend on whether the repayable loans made to university students by the government were still in place or not; to stop these would, I think, be disastrous. Currently these are repayable out of future taxable earnings at the rate of (I think) 9% of any earnings over £15,000 a year, at a current interest rate of 0%.

If, for any reason the number of British students is reduced at university, then they will be replaced by fee-paying foreign students. It strikes me as quite incongruous if we educate foreigners to take well-paid jobs in Britain?