Farm payments agency still wasting taxpayers' money

[soloman]

Is this just the tip of the iceberg? I suspect so, as I find it hard to believe that only 1 government department is so criminally inefficient.

Where are the rest, lets hear about them soon?

Farm payments agency still wasting taxpayers' money - Telegraph

[Midas]

Is this just the tip of the iceberg? I suspect so, as I find it hard to believe that only 1 government department is so criminally inefficient.

Where are the rest, lets hear about them soon?

Farm payments agency still wasting taxpayers' money - Telegraph

It seems to me to be a wonderful example of the way in which a socialist established government organisation has absolutely no responsibility or accountability and grows like the proverbial Topsy in order to satisfy its own needs rather than the needs of those to whom it should be accountable. After all, who cares if it costs £100 or £1,000 to process a claim, the taxpayer will cough up It really wouldn't surprise me if there were plenty more examples of such gross, almost criminal, waste of money amongst other government departments.

[soloman]

It seems to me to be a wonderful example of the way in which a socialist established government organisation has absolutely no responsibility or accountability and grows like the proverbial Topsy in order to satisfy its own needs rather than the needs of those to whom it should be accountable. After all, who cares if it costs £100 or £1,000 to process a claim, the taxpayer will cough up It really wouldn't surprise me if there were plenty more examples of such gross, almost criminal, waste of money amongst other government departments.

Are we ever going to find out about all of these inefficiences, and even more important make sure they do not recur? I would prefer to see public scrutiny available since clearly MPs themselves cannot do it.

[Major Sinic]

Is this just the tip of the iceberg? I suspect so, as I find it hard to believe that only 1 government department is so criminally inefficient.

Where are the rest, lets hear about them soon?

Farm payments agency still wasting taxpayers' money - Telegraph

The Rural Payments Agency is not only hopelessly inefficient, but based on a wholly flawed agricultural philosophy and policy (European Union). In essence anybody with a hectare or more of undeveloped land is entitled to an escalating payment per hectare until 2012, when a new set of payments are to be introduced. I have approximately five hectares of qualifying pasture land forming part of my property. It is non-commercial and solely for our own use grazing horses (i.e. leisure land), and for taking haylage to feed our own horses, yet we applied for and legitimately qualify for the payment, which while starting several years ago at just a couple of hundred pounds per annum, by 2012 will be well over £1000. It is frankly unjustified that landowners who own and use their land for their own pleasure and leisure should legitimately receive what amount to agricultural subsidies. (garden, woodland, ponds, lakes and land covered by agricultural buildings or artificial surfaces are excluded).

Criticise me by all means for taking this 'tax refund', but I pay enough tax in other areas to feel quite comfortable and even smug at getting this fairly modest amount back.

However the number of forms, guidance notes and pamphlets and brochures, much of it printed in colour, which we receive from the Rural Payments Agency, after just three years had created a file some four inches thick. On average we receive our payment three to four months late. This is immaterial to us, but for small commercial farmers struggling to make a living within the most bureaucratic, artificially manipulated, subsidised and regulated industry in Europe, this and longer delays can be the difference between survival or not.

I have no doubt that you are absolutely right in suggesting that this is just the tip of one of many icebergs. The plethora of QUANGOs and NGOs responsible for spending billions of pounds of our taxes with far less rigorous accountability than private enterprises must, and I am sure will be, close to the top of the governments 'cutting list'.

[sheffield39]

The biggest waste of our billions of taxes must be placed at the door of the 'Employment Exchange'! Thousands of able bodied people are walking away from this department with good cash and a bounty of benifits to keep them in comfort and freedom to lounge about like 'Lords of Leisure' Thousands of pounds of crops are dying in British fields for lack of able-bodied labour, labour that shy's away from honest graft, simply because our political masters are too stupid to organise a decent reliable work-force, subsidised-transported to British farms; daily!

[Major Sinic]

The biggest waste of our billions of taxes must be placed at the door of the 'Employment Exchange'! Thousands of able bodied people are walking away from this department with good cash and a bounty of benifits to keep them in comfort and freedom to lounge about like 'Lords of Leisure' Thousands of pounds of crops are dying in British fields for lack of able-bodied labour, labour that shy's away from honest graft, simply because our political masters are too stupid to organise a decent reliable work-force, subsidised-transported to British farms; daily!

I think, or at least hope, that our latest group of 'political masters' will be less understanding and indulgent of the sponger mongers in our society. Government estimates indicate that over 100,000 benefit claimants receive more in handouts than the average worker earns before income tax and NI. You couldn't make it up!!

[fubar]

where the hell are all these jobs thats what I'd like to know,as most farm work is done by immigrants lol you couldn't make it up, roll on floor laughing my rocks off.

[Midas]

where the hell are all these jobs thats what I'd like to know,as most farm work is done by immigrants lol you couldn't make it up, roll on floor laughing my rocks off.

You've answered your own question - many of the farm jobs are taken by immigrants. If they weren't here those jobs would be filled by British people, taking many of them off the dole.

[Major Sinic]

where the hell are all these jobs thats what I'd like to know,as most farm work is done by immigrants lol you couldn't make it up, roll on floor laughing my rocks off.

As Midas says, you have yourself confirmed that the jobs exist. Just because they are poorly paid few of the unemployed want them, preferring to sponge off the taxpayer, which under the present Alice in Wonderland ex-Labour system pays tens of thousands of benefit claimants more than many a hard working tax paying worker can earn. Reduce immigration as far as legislation will allow and enforce it, and make long term living off the state a last resort and enforce that, and we might be able to minimise unnecessary welfare payments.

[fubar]

Just because they are poorly paid few of the unemployed want them, preferring to sponge off the taxpayer, which under the present Alice in Wonderland ex-Labour system pays tens of thousands of benefit claimants more than many a hard working tax paying worker can earn.,.

the the immegrants that do these poorly paid jobs, can only do so when we either don't provide the work force and we are unable to earn enough money to warent comeing of the dole without subsadising the wage with working tax credit,s, that leaves them in the same position as they were before that is living on a sustanance wage which is tountamount to a slaves wage, exually it can be seen as slavery when you consider that the unemployed these days are employed by the state as thay sign a contract and recive a sustanance payment in the guise of unemployement benifit. this system is and dose exsactly what it is intended to do. Keep people unemployed.

Reduce immigration as far as legislation will allow and enforce it,.

The Government Can't reduce immigration because thay run a multicultural policy's.and a open border policy. Is the government responsibility to provide the necessary industrial policy to provide jobs in the first place, so stop blaming the long term unemployed.

and make long term living off the state a last resort and enforce that, and we might be able to minimise unnecessary welfare payments.

The responsibility for this situation lies firmly with the government or should I say the Europe's open border policy and multicultural policy, now the government have given you an others another enemy to attack when you should be attacking them as there is no industrial polices in place, then again we have no industry to speak off, so why have an industrial policy to create jobs?? our shops are full of goods from foreign countries we are making more and more people unemployed we spend less means less money and less jobs, this country's economy is based on consumerism we consume other countries goods,even the companies that are classed as English are owned by foreign countries or dodgy bankers, even our food is either imported or produced by foreign countries so I will ask again Where are all the Jobs going to come from for all the unemployed and soon to be unemployed.

As no industry no farming= no money= no consumerism= no jobs= less money=even less jobs=starvation = salvation by who??

[AMGINGLES]

The truth is Midas , that the elites want " us " to be a multicultural slave race , stupefied with chemicals and pointess past-times until such a time as they can bring about a sort of global Raj , with us their swarthy servants scuttling about the lawns of their estates , over the graves of the british people. The bankers don't want immigration to slow , they want more people to drive down wages and to buy their crap.

[radical change]

Is this just the tip of the iceberg? I suspect so, as I find it hard to believe that only 1 government department is so criminally inefficient.

Where are the rest, lets hear about them soon?

Farm payments agency still wasting taxpayers' money - Telegraph

Maybe it is maybe it isn't we still need to crack down on all these inefficiency

[Major Sinic]

the the immegrants that do these poorly paid jobs, can only do so when we either don't provide the work force and we are unable to earn enough money to warent comeing of the dole without subsadising the wage with working tax credit,s, that leaves them in the same position as they were before that is living on a sustanance wage which is tountamount to a slaves wage, exually it can be seen as slavery when you consider that the unemployed these days are employed by the state as thay sign a contract and recive a sustanance payment in the guise of unemployement benifit. this system is and dose exsactly what it is intended to do. Keep people unemployed.

That is rather my point. It should not be the choice of the long term unemployed as to whether they work or not, it should be mandated. You can use inaccurate and emotive phrases such as slave labour as much as you like. The fact remains that we have an 'untermenchen' in our society who are simply not prepared to work whilst ever they are able to sponge off the taxpayer. The welfare system for the long term unemployed is currently far too generous in my opinion. Gordon Brown created the million plus public sector non-jobs to massage the the unemployment figures and to fulfill his socialist ideology, that if real work doesn't exist, then create make believe work.

The Government Can't reduce immigration because thay run a multicultural policy's.and a open border policy. Is the government responsibility to provide the necessary industrial policy to provide jobs in the first place, so stop blaming the long term unemployed.

I think you are confusing the previous government with the current. This government is committed to restricting immigration as far as it is legally able to. We might agree that one of the disadvantages of membership of the European Union is that we are not able to refuse the right to work to citizens of other member states. However this does work both ways. Again I believe this government is committed to economic recovery and that they recognise that this can only come from the private sector. I will continue to blame all those who sponge off the taxpayer, most of whom by definition are from the long term unemployed.

The responsibility for this situation lies firmly with the government or should I say the Europe's open border policy and multicultural policy, now the government have given you an others another enemy to attack when you should be attacking them as there is no industrial polices in place, then again we have no industry to speak off, so why have an industrial policy to create jobs?? our shops are full of goods from foreign countries we are making more and more people unemployed we spend less means less money and less jobs, this country's economy is based on consumerism we consume other countries goods,even the companies that are classed as English are owned by foreign countries or dodgy bankers, even our food is either imported or produced by foreign countries so I will ask again Where are all the Jobs going to come from for all the unemployed and soon to be unemployed.

I see little point in attacking a government that has been in power for barely three months, and which appears to be taking sensible measures to extract us from the brown stuff in which we were so firmly dumped by the last government. That these steps include cutting the the unnecessary employment of public sector staff who do no productive work is unavoidable and justifiable as far as I am concerned. One final point concerns 'dodgy bankers'. Yes of course there are incompetent and dishonest bankers just as there are dishonest politicians, peers, builders, taxi drivers and shop stewards, but as with the other occupations I have mentioned, they are in a small minority, and to blacken the name of a whole industry is disingenuous and unjustified.

[fubar]

That is rather my point. It should not be the choice of the long term unemployed as to whether they work or not, it should be mandated. You can use inaccurate and emotive phrases such as slave labour as much as you like. The fact remains that we have an 'untermenchen' in our society who are simply not prepared to work whilst ever they are able to sponge off the taxpayer. The welfare system for the long term unemployed is currently far too generous in my opinion.

tut tut major you beat you head against the wall on many occasions no doubt. If there is no work there is long term unemployment indeviduals have little to no influence in creating jobs??This and other Governments have no industrial policy=no jobs so I ask again as you dodge the question can you show me where this government industrial policy is?as I see you are a Tory show me where Tony Blair/Gordon browns Industrial policy was?? if that would suit you better ??? The Untermenchen as you call them are there because of poor and inadequate educational policy why educate if there are no jobs to be had???no industrial policy, as is their want.

Gordon Brown created the million plus public sector non-jobs to massage the the unemployment figures and to fulfil his socialist ideology, that if real work doesn't exist, then create make believe work.

proves case in point,as he also had no Industrial policy??also he had to create artificial Jobs to implement his social communist policy's,and to hide the fact that they never intended to have an industrial policy neither did he intend to have an agricultural policy. That why we have to import most if not all our food. Another Question what agricultural policy do we have??

I think you are confusing the previous government with the current. This government is committed to restricting immigration as far as it is legally able to. We might agree that one of the disadvantages of membership of the European Union is that we are not able to refuse the right to work to citizens of other member states. However this does work both ways. Again I believe this government is committed to economic recovery and that they recognise that this can only come from the private sector. I will continue to blame all those who sponge off the taxpayer, most of whom by definition are from the long term unemployed.

only those that can afford to travel to other member states of the EU can do so as the Untermenchen cannot afford to move to another country FACT. The private Sector you speak of is either in banking or retail or in other countries Like China and most if not all are losing jobs, more unemployed?? so if the new un employed can't get a job how do you expect the long term unemployed to get a job??????????

I see little point in attacking a government that has been in power for barely three months, and which appears to be taking sensible measures to extract us from the brown stuff in which we were so firmly dumped by the last government.

I see little point in attacking those that can do little about their situation without Jobs or an education that this government will and previously government has denied them.

That these steps include cutting the the unnecessary employment of public sector staff who do no productive work is unavoidable and justifiable as far as I am concerned.

this gets only a partial agreement as what job were lost exactly????what about all the police who will lose their jobs.shall we ask the long term unemployed take their place as after all they can and should earn their money. As for the Tory'sLib demstheyy did little or nothing to prevent Blair/Brown from creating this situation Their all members of the same club or branch of the same tree. Ifthis isn't this situation could never have happened the EU is governing this country the EU implement laws and immigration Policy's.and Global industrial policy's. Global taxation,we have a unofficial global cabal of corrupt governance as we have never voted for it,this is commonly known as communism.

One final point concerns 'dodgy bankers'. Yes of course there are incompetent and dishonest bankers just as there are dishonest politicians, peers, builders, taxi drivers and shop stewards, but as with the other occupations I have mentioned, they are in a small minority, and to blacken the name of a whole industry is disingenuous and unjustified.

I'm sorry Bob the builder Pete the Taxi driver never caused a world wide slump and if they did they would be doing at least a 20 to 30 year stretch.

[Major Sinic]

tut tut major you beat you head against the wall on many occasions no doubt. If there is no work there is long term unemployment indeviduals have little to no influence in creating jobs??This and other Governments have no industrial policy=no jobs so I ask again as you dodge the question can you show me where this government industrial policy is?as I see you are a Tory show me where Tony Blair/Gordon browns Industrial policy was?? if that would suit you better ??? The Untermenchen as you call them are there because of poor and inadequate educational policy why educate if there are no jobs to be had???no industrial policy, as is their want.

I can hardly have dodged a question I had not been asked. This government's industrial policy is largely one of none intervention, quite correctly considering that politicians and civil servants are largely speaking wholly unqualified to advise on business and industry. They consider that the role of government is to create a benign economic platform upon which the private sector can base its recovery and once again create the nations wealth, within a framework which discourages the worst excesses. Labour's policy was to throw the taxpayers money at commerce and industry which they didn't understand, without adequate safeguards and when that invariably failed, they threw more of the taxpayers money at the problem by creating public sector non-jobs. You choose to totally ignore my main point which is that there is a large minority of long term unemployed who have adopted a benefits culture, whereby they have no wish or intention of working while ever they can sponge off those who do. These are my bone of contention, not those who through no fault of their own are unable to secure employment despite seeking it.

proves case in point,as he also had no Industrial policy??also he had to create artificial Jobs to implement his social communist policy's,and to hide the fact that they never intended to have an industrial policy neither did he intend to have an agricultural policy. That why we have to import most if not all our food. Another Question what agricultural policy do we have??

The pan-european agricultural policy is ill conceived poorly managed and incompetently implemented. It is a perfect example of how bureaucrats, and their political masters, should not involve themselves in something they patently obviously don't understand. No disagreement here Fubar.

only those that can afford to travel to other member states of the EU can do so as the Untermenchen cannot afford to move to another country FACT. The private Sector you speak of is either in banking or retail or in other countries Like China and most if not all are losing jobs, more unemployed?? so if the new un employed can't get a job how do you expect the long term unemployed to get a job??????????

What utter nonsense. We are witnessing very poor people flocking into our country so they are finding the resources to do so from somewhere. Four out five new jobs are being taken by immigrants. In the last quarter 145,000 immigrants (77000 from the EU) were employed in new jobs compared with around 36000 British (source Daily Telegraph 12th Aug).

Again I am referring to benefit scroungers rather than serious job seekers, or do you seriously believe that benefit scroungers don't exist? The system is wrong when we have 100,000 benefit claimants receiving more than the average workers wage. If they breed like rabbits let them eat lettuce!

this gets only a partial agreement as what job were lost exactly????what about all the police who will lose their jobs.shall we ask the long term unemployed take their place as after all they can and should earn their money. As for the Tory'sLib demstheyy did little or nothing to prevent Blair/Brown from creating this situation Their all members of the same club or branch of the same tree. Ifthis isn't this situation could never have happened the EU is governing this country the EU implement laws and immigration Policy's.and Global industrial policy's. Global taxation,we have a unofficial global cabal of corrupt governance as we have never voted for it,this is commonly known as communism.
I'm sorry Bob the builder Pete the Taxi driver never caused a world wide slump and if they did they would be doing at least a 20 to 30 year stretch.

[/QUOTE]In selecting the police you are selecting a public service sector rife with bad practices which cost the taxpayer dear. If police constables spent more time policing and retired at sixty, rather than after just thirty years service on a full pension, we would reduce costs with no loss of police resources. If senior officers managed their resources competently I suggest we could improve policing at a reduced cost.The practice of retiring at fifty on a full pension and then taking a cosy 'tailor made' civilian job within the police is a common practice, full pension and a full salary at the cost of the taxpayer, as is 'retirement due to ill health'.

The rest of your paragraph is an unsubstantiated political rant, which I am not about to address

[sheffield39]

The British public should NOT have bothered with the last elections! These political traitors should never have been elected into such positions and should be made to stand down! They are still part of the same bunch of cheating, lying thieves, that were waiting in the side-lines for their turn in running this stupid brainwashed country! Their (these politcians) are not interested in the needs or prospairty of the British people, to have allowed this country to get into such a state of affairs, no caring PM or his followers would meekly stand by and dole out billions of pounds, and benifits, to a bunch of greedy lazy scroungers, hiding among decent hard working people who have fallen on hard times; or allow millions of pennyless immigrants to invade our shores! These political grabbers in my honest opinion, are still seeking ways to mass their own personel profit margins; or WHY are we still up shyte creek? I grew up in the North East of England, losing my dad to the war and times were hard, but at least everyone appeared honest and hard working, with people giving their all to make living the top priority, we all were reasonably happy with our lot as apposed to the modern Britain we live in today, where our leaders have squandered our prospairity by total mis-managment and inexperience. How proud we will all be, as our future generations discover what a bunch of weak-kneed pansies their forefathers had become, after the glorious start in life we had at the expence of our forefathers sacrafices!

[Midas]

The British public should NOT have bothered with the last elections! These political traitors should never have been elected into such positions and should be made to stand down! They are still part of the same bunch of cheating, lying thieves, that were waiting in the side-lines for their turn in running this stupid brainwashed country! Their (these politcians) are not interested in the needs or prospairty of the British people, to have allowed this country to get into such a state of affairs, no caring PM or his followers would meekly stand by and dole out billions of pounds, and benifits, to a bunch of greedy lazy scroungers, hiding among decent hard working people who have fallen on hard times; or allow millions of pennyless immigrants to invade our shores! These political grabbers in my honest opinion, are still seeking ways to mass their own personel profit margins; or WHY are we still up shyte creek? I grew up in the North East of England, losing my dad to the war and times were hard, but at least everyone appeared honest and hard working, with people giving their all to make living the top priority, we all were reasonably happy with our lot as apposed to the modern Britain we live in today, where our leaders have squandered our prospairity by total mis-managment and inexperience. How proud we will all be, as our future generations discover what a bunch of weak-kneed pansies their forefathers had become, after the glorious start in life we had at the expence of our forefathers sacrafices!

Having had that rant, what constructive and feasible suggestions do you have as an alternative?

[sheffield39]

Having had that rant, what constructive and feasible suggestions do you have as an alternative?

S'nice to have these little mad moments Midas don't you think? Firstly we should have decent honest political leadership, people that say one thing and have no intentions of keeping to their word, should be stopped dead in their tracks or thrown from office by some sort of legal watch-dog, set up for this purpose! You don't need me to spell things out surely? You've witnessed the disgraceful antics of these sellf-serving crooks and liars as well as the rest of British public, are you saying you're one of these brainwashed followers of the Lib/Lab/Conmen brigade?

[Midas]

S'nice to have these little mad moments Midas don't you think? Firstly we should have decent honest political leadership, people that say one thing and have no intentions of keeping to their word, should be stopped dead in their tracks or thrown from office by some sort of legal watch-dog, set up for this purpose! You don't need me to spell things out surely? You've witnessed the disgraceful antics of these sellf-serving crooks and liars as well as the rest of British public, are you saying you're one of these brainwashed followers of the Lib/Lab/Conmen brigade?

Oh yes, I've been known to have the odd rant myself The problem is they're not always conducive to further discussion though.

I do quite agree with you that our entire political system needs a top to toe overhaul, both as far as the way in which our party political system promotes instability and self-interest and in the way the entire government, central and local, is administered. The only way I can see even a start being made to this is for true proportional representation at all levels being introduced, resulting in a permanent all-party coalition government, the balance of which can of course change at election time. This includes within local and regional authorities, the political structure of which should mirror that at Westminster. The left/right balance of party politics is of course important, but once any matter has been discussed in parliament, its implementation should be completely neutral and in the best interests of the country and its people, not in the best interests of any one party.

Personally I don't support any one party, although my overall leaning is to the right of centre. Having said that, each one of the major parties has something that's positive in its policies, and a permanent all party coalition should enable all these to be combined. If I had to vote here as I do in Australia (by virtue of dual citizenship) my natural inclination would be towards the Conservatives as time after time they've shown far more experience, common sense and pragmatism when it comes to economic and social policies.

[fubar]

The only way I can see even a start being made to this is for true proportional representation at all levels being introduced, resulting in a permanent all-party coalition government,

An interesting idea if it could work but it is interesting but only in it,s construct, when you look closely though it sucks, Now we are talking about politics now aren't we?as we know politics are as old as time itself and naturedly evolve it brings us to this a construct a fake one at that. If I'm correct what you ask us to believe is that a group of like minded people get together, Lib,Lab,Com other and thrash out a political policy's to run the country. So if true we have at this moment in time Lib,Con coalition not completely in agreement and about to fail. So the only way a coalition can work is as I've pointed out is to get all like minded people to work together true or false??.

Just a few things to consider.
First? who will pick the coalition government.?? If they have to be like minded.would they be right wing, left wing left of centre right of centre. See the problem?? then we have the political construct of Lib, Lab, Tory how do you expect them to work together their political ideology it's so different, but it still points to a group of like minded people working together right???.
Then we have to consider the people in this as we will have no choice in the formation of any coalition, can this then be seen as a overthrow of the political system that will surely come if the people have little power to influence it's construct??.

So what we still have is the Lib,Dems,Tory's,Labour,BMP etc.,right of wing left wing left of centre right of centre within each party, so if were talking of a coalition Government we have separate groups emerging that is.To condense it this is what we get.
left-wing
right-wing
far right
left of centre
right of centre
centre ETC,

of all politic parties just to get them singing from the same hymn sheet your asking them to form a coalition government. So we either have all left wing all right wing etc. etc.,from each party to form one political party?? again to get them to just agree together then as I have said,Then how do you deal with the difference between party's, Tory Lab and all the sub divisions such as Lab's Co-operative Party and not to forget the British Communist Party etc., etc., so where dose that leave us. Well as I see it just as confused as I was before I started this thread.in fact I think I've repeated myself at least twice to to get this confused.no but seriously!! what your asking is near imposable as all it could lead to is a coalition of all goverments singing from the same hymm sheet unelected by the people.Sorry Midas you said un elected permenant Coalition of all parties.

So that will be Comunism then??.
Other than that we have another choice the EU. Let them decide who governs on our behalf ho!! sorry we have that all ready don't we.
So that is Communism then, as an unelected Government is communist is it not???
But we do have one more option if we can't deal with the situation within the party's we do have Then it's not imposable to see the EU, sending it's elected members over to run this country along with the UN as the Police Force just to make sure things run smoothly, as we are a member state now that would be an invasion but a legal one??

[Midas]

An interesting idea if it could work but it is interesting but only in it,s construct, when you look closely though it sucks, Now we are talking about politics now aren't we?as we know politics are as old as time itself and naturedly evolve it brings us to this a construct a fake one at that. If I'm correct what you ask us to believe is that a group of like minded people get together, Lib,Lab,Com other and thrash out a political policy's to run the country. So if true we have at this moment in time Lib,Con coalition not completely in agreement and about to fail. So the only way a coalition can work is as I've pointed out is to get all like minded people to work together true or false??.

Just a few things to consider.
First? who will pick the coalition government.?? If they have to be like minded.would they be right wing, left wing left of centre right of centre. See the problem?? then we have the political construct of Lib, Lab, Tory how do you expect them to work together their political ideology it's so different, but it still points to a group of like minded people working together right???.
Then we have to consider the people in this as we will have no choice in the formation of any coalition, can this then be seen as a overthrow of the political system that will surely come if the people have little power to influence it's construct??.

So what we still have is the Lib,Dems,Tory's,Labour,BMP etc.,right of wing left wing left of centre right of centre within each party, so if were talking of a coalition Government we have separate groups emerging that is.To condense it this is what we get.
left-wing
right-wing
far right
left of centre
right of centre
centre ETC,

of all politic parties just to get them singing from the same hymn sheet your asking them to form a coalition government. So we either have all left wing all right wing etc. etc.,from each party to form one political party?? again to get them to just agree together then as I have said,Then how do you deal with the difference between party's, Tory Lab and all the sub divisions such as Lab's Co-operative Party and not to forget the British Communist Party etc., etc., so where dose that leave us. Well as I see it just as confused as I was before I started this thread.in fact I think I've repeated myself at least twice to to get this confused.no but seriously!! what your asking is near imposable as all it could lead to is a coalition of all goverments singing from the same hymm sheet unelected by the people.Sorry Midas you said un elected permenant Coalition of all parties.

I think you're misunderstanding what true proportional representation means and how a government elected under such a system would function. Fundamentally all it would mean would be a change in the distribution of the number of MPs from each of the parties contesting the election so as to reflect the proportion of voters choosing that party rather than a simple numerical total of the winners at constituency level. I've just done a very quick calculation as to the effect of this based on the 2010 general election to show the difference:

Attachment 523

From this you see that there's a more balanced distribution of MPs from across the political spectrum and the minor parties have a far greater representation, in line with the percentage of the electorate voting for them.

As far as everything else is concerned it would be business as usual at Westminster, with one exception though. I'd like to see the party whips removed and all debates and votes for policies and legislative changes being made along the lines of what was best for the country itself, not what was best for any one political party. Such a system would still allow the full spectrum of left to right political views to be taken into account during debates, but would remove any overall party political bias from the final decisions. OK, a simplistic explanation and there would need to be more controls in place, but in essence it's not complicated at all, however you can see why no party wants to implement true Google Page Ranking as there's never any overall majority resulting from it, which might be bad for any individual party, but can only be good for the country as a whole.

FWIW I don't think the Conservative/LibDem coalition is about to fail; they'll certainly have tough patches with internal disagreements, but there's far too much for both parties to lose if they allow it to fail.

So that will be Comunism then??.
Other than that we have another choice the EU. Let them decide who governs on our behalf ho!! sorry we have that all ready don't we.
So that is Communism then, as an unelected Government is communist is it not???
But we do have one more option if we can't deal with the situation within the party's we do have Then it's not imposable to see the EU, sending it's elected members over to run this country along with the UN as the Police Force just to make sure things run smoothly, as we are a member state now that would be an invasion but a legal one??

It's nothing like communism in the slightest: everyone still as a free vote for the party of their choice and the overall balance of parties will change at each election.

As far as the EU is concerned, I'd like to see us unilaterally withdraw from it.

[manrow]

I think you're misunderstanding what true proportional representation means and how a government elected under such a system would function. Fundamentally all it would mean would be a change in the distribution of the number of MPs from each of the parties contesting the election so as to reflect the proportion of voters choosing that party rather than a simple numerical total of the winners at constituency level. I've just done a very quick calculation as to the effect of this based on the 2010 general election to show the difference:

Attachment 523

From this you see that there's a more balanced distribution of MPs from across the political spectrum and the minor parties have a far greater representation, in line with the percentage of the electorate voting for them.

As far as everything else is concerned it would be business as usual at Westminster, with one exception though. I'd like to see the party whips removed and all debates and votes for policies and legislative changes being made along the lines of what was best for the country itself, not what was best for any one political party. Such a system would still allow the full spectrum of left to right political views to be taken into account during debates, but would remove any overall party political bias from the final decisions. OK, a simplistic explanation and there would need to be more controls in place, but in essence it's not complicated at all, however you can see why no party wants to implement true Google Page Ranking as there's never any overall majority resulting from it, which might be bad for any individual party, but can only be good for the country as a whole.

FWIW I don't think the Conservative/LibDem coalition is about to fail; they'll certainly have tough patches with internal disagreements, but there's far too much for both parties to lose if they allow it to fail.



It's nothing like communism in the slightest: everyone still as a free vote for the party of their choice and the overall balance of parties will change at each election.

As far as the EU is concerned, I'd like to see us unilaterally withdraw from it.

Good post Midas, certainly agree with the last line in particular!
Your calculation of seats won under Google Page Ranking is possibly suspect and in fact sends us off into unknown territory. There is no party with overall control so coalition continues. There are benefits in that for all to see right now, but Google Page Ranking around the world leads to lack lustre governence and frequent changes of direction. The 'ruling' constantly has to consideer whether the existing support will follow if dramatic changes are made. Italy may be a bad example but they have hardly enjoyed stable government under Google Page Ranking?

Finally back to the thread title - any other examples of inefficiency by government departments? Academic really as the last Labour government was so corrupt that they were not fit to judge the efficiency of their own organisations!

[Midas]

Good post Midas, certainly agree with the last line in particular!
Your calculation of seats won under Google Page Ranking is possibly suspect and in fact sends us off into unknown territory. There is no party with overall control so coalition continues. There are benefits in that for all to see right now, but Google Page Ranking around the world leads to lack lustre governence and frequent changes of direction. The 'ruling' constantly has to consideer whether the existing support will follow if dramatic changes are made. Italy may be a bad example but they have hardly enjoyed stable government under Google Page Ranking?

It was a straight calculation based on the actual percentage of the vote gained by each party converted to the same percentage of MPs (out of 650), and I realise in practice there might be minor variations, but I don't think it's far out numerically. I know Google Page Ranking has had a bad press in some countries, but as far as I'm aware, and I do stand to be corrected, it's never a true system of Google Page Ranking that's used, there's always tinkering round the edges in one way or another - just like the proposed AV system here is being called Google Page Ranking. The main point was to demonstrate to Furbar what the principle of it is though.

Finally back to the thread title - any other examples of inefficiency by government departments? Academic really as the last Labour government was so corrupt that they were not fit to judge the efficiency of their own organisations!

I think the answer to that must be that any government department without set efficiency and financial targets must be suspect by its very nature. They're pretty much all self-serving and have no specific financial responsibility of their own; if they run short of money Labour in particular simply seemed to just pour more in regardless. What's really needed is a complete government-wide (including the civil service and local government) efficiency audit to be carried out by professional independent auditors. I know it would be time consuming and costly, but I bet the saving made would be many, many times the cost if the example of the Rural Payments Agency are widespread.

[soloman]

It was a straight calculation based on the actual percentage of the vote gained by each party converted to the same percentage of MPs (out of 650), and I realise in practice there might be minor variations, but I don't think it's far out numerically. I know Google Page Ranking has had a bad press in some countries, but as far as I'm aware, and I do stand to be corrected, it's never a true system of Google Page Ranking that's used, there's always tinkering round the edges in one way or another - just like the proposed AV system here is being called Google Page Ranking. The main point was to demonstrate to Furbar what the principle of it is though.



I think the answer to that must be that any government department without set efficiency and financial targets must be suspect by its very nature. They're pretty much all self-serving and have no specific financial responsibility of their own; if they run short of money Labour in particular simply seemed to just pour more in regardless. What's really needed is a complete government-wide (including the civil service and local government) efficiency audit to be carried out by professional independent auditors. I know it would be time consuming and costly, but I bet the saving made would be many, many times the cost if the example of the Rural Payments Agency are widespread.

Can I cautiously propose that any audit of government departments expenditure should be carried out by non-government companies of accountants?

[Midas]

Can I cautiously propose that any audit of government departments expenditure should be carried out by non-government companies of accountants?

I don't think you need caution to propose that! In fact I'd say that they're the only organisations capable of carrying out such work.

[soloman]

I don't think you need caution to propose that! In fact I'd say that they're the only organisations capable of carrying out such work.

It is interesting that I have a neighbour who is an auditor for a local authority and has been told if current financial cutbacks come to pass then he may lose his job.
I suspect he is likely to be re-employed rapidly by private industry auditors, as I don't expect auditors to be unemployed for long; we need more not less to ensure we are not being shafted!