We English must take some blame for the growth of Scottish Nationalism

[srb7677]

We English must take a large share of the blame for the surge in support for the SNP, and for the desire for more devolution, even independence, in Scotland in recent decades. Or rather those English who keep voting for Thatcherism must take a large share of the blame.

Throughout the 1980s and into the 90s, the Scots ever more resoundingly rejected Tory Thatcherism, but a large enough minority of the English voted for it, to deliver Thatcherite governments that the Scots themselves did not support. Nevertheless, the far more numerous Engish mostly decided electoral outcomes for Britain as a whole. Thus it increasingly began to appear that the English were imposing upon Scotland a government that the Scots themselves hated. Furthermore, this government elected by the English and largely unsupported in Scotland, used its' English mandate to impose policies on Scotland which the Scots never voted for and didn't want.

The worst example of this was when the Tories imposed the hated Poll Tax upon Scotland a full year before the English suffered it, and ignored all Scottish protests completely. Only when it was imposed in England too and the English also started protesting en masse, did the government actually start listening. It should be easy for any intelligent person to realise how bad this must have looked in Scotland.

As Thatcherism continued to be imposed upon Britain by the English against Scottish wishes, even after Thatcher herself had departed, support for the Tories in Scotland completely collapsed and by 1997 they had no Scottish MPs at all. Meanwhile, in response to what was in effect the English imposition of Thatcherism upon a reluctant Scotland, the independence movement in Scotland was growing in strength, and support for more devolution soared. Labour, unlike the Tories, were still strong in Scotland, but to retain their support they felt it necessary to respond to Scottish aspirations by promising a devolution referendum, which was duly held after Labour came to power. The Scots then resoundingly voted for devolution.

But by now there was a Labour government in power that many Scots DID vote for. However, it soon began to become apparent that it wasn't the kind of truly progressive Labour government that the Scots wanted. Indeed, New Labour appeared to be calibrated to suit Tory southeast England much more than the Scots, and much of the hated Thatcherism continued, and in some ways was even intensified. Slowly at first, increasing numbers of Scottish Labour supporters began to desert, some to the Liberal Democrats but quite a few to the SNP. Support for yet more devolution, even independence, continued to grow.

The icing on the cake was when the Liberal Democrats, supported by significant numbers of Scots as supposedly the only remaining non-Thatcherite Unionist Party, joined in coalition with the hated Tories in 2010. As a direct consequence, in the 2011 Scottish Parliament elections, Liberal Democrat support utterly collapsed, most of it going to the SNP. This delivered an SNP majority.

Scotland now thus finds itself with a Nationalist government with a working majority, in favour of independence, with a substantial majority of Scots favouring much more devolution, and a large and growing minority favouring full independence. This is happening primarily because of a total Scottish rejection of Thatcherism, which is all they seem to be getting from not only the Tories, but to a large extent Labour as well, and now it seems also the Liberal Democrats. And we the English keep voting for this. And the Scots reject the choice we are making for them. It is the electoral choices we in England are making which is driving the Scots away.

[uganda]

We English must take a large share of the blame for the surge in support for the SNP, and for the desire for more devolution, even independence, in Scotland in recent decades. Or rather those English who keep voting for Thatcherism must take a large share of the blame.

Throughout the 1980s and into the 90s, the Scots ever more resoundingly rejected Tory Thatcherism, but a large enough minority of the English voted for it, to deliver Thatcherite governments that the Scots themselves did not support. Nevertheless, the far more numerous Engish mostly decided electoral outcomes for Britain as a whole. Thus it increasingly began to appear that the English were imposing upon Scotland a government that the Scots themselves hated. Furthermore, this government elected by the English and largely unsupported in Scotland, used its' English mandate to impose policies on Scotland which the Scots never voted for and didn't want.

The worst example of this was when the Tories imposed the hated Poll Tax upon Scotland a full year before the English suffered it, and ignored all Scottish protests completely. Only when it was imposed in England too and the English also started protesting en masse, did the government actually start listening. It should be easy for any intelligent person to realise how bad this must have looked in Scotland.

As Thatcherism continued to be imposed upon Britain by the English against Scottish wishes, even after Thatcher herself had departed, support for the Tories in Scotland completely collapsed and by 1997 they had no Scottish MPs at all. Meanwhile, in response to what was in effect the English imposition of Thatcherism upon a reluctant Scotland, the independence movement in Scotland was growing in strength, and support for more devolution soared. Labour, unlike the Tories, were still strong in Scotland, but to retain their support they felt it necessary to respond to Scottish aspirations by promising a devolution referendum, which was duly held after Labour came to power. The Scots then resoundingly voted for devolution.

But by now there was a Labour government in power that many Scots DID vote for. However, it soon began to become apparent that it wasn't the kind of truly progressive Labour government that the Scots wanted. Indeed, New Labour appeared to be calibrated to suit Tory southeast England much more than the Scots, and much of the hated Thatcherism continued, and in some ways was even intensified. Slowly at first, increasing numbers of Scottish Labour supporters began to desert, some to the Liberal Democrats but quite a few to the SNP. Support for yet more devolution, even independence, continued to grow.

The icing on the cake was when the Liberal Democrats, supported by significant numbers of Scots as supposedly the only remaining non-Thatcherite Unionist Party, joined in coalition with the hated Tories in 2010. As a direct consequence, in the 2011 Scottish Parliament elections, Liberal Democrat support utterly collapsed, most of it going to the SNP. This delivered an SNP majority.

Scotland now thus finds itself with a Nationalist government with a working majority, in favour of independence, with a substantial majority of Scots favouring much more devolution, and a large and growing minority favouring full independence. This is happening primarily because of a total Scottish rejection of Thatcherism, which is all they seem to be getting from not only the Tories, but to a large extent Labour as well, and now it seems also the Liberal Democrats. And we the English keep voting for this. And the Scots reject the choice we are making for them. It is the electoral choices we in England are making which is driving the Scots away.

I agree very much with your illustration of the frustration felt by many Scottish people, however you cannot deny English people the right to vote for whom they wish, however misguided that may be, so it is quite wrong to blame the English people for the fact that their votes often carry more weight nationally because there are more of them. It is just the way it is, and if Independence is a feasible answer, then great.

[srb7677]

I agree very much with your illustration of the frustration felt by many Scottish people, however you cannot deny English people the right to vote for whom they wish, however misguided that may be, so it is quite wrong to blame the English people for the fact that their votes often carry more weight nationally because there are more of them. It is just the way it is, and if Independence is a feasible answer, then great.

It is just that, in addition to all the other good reasons I can think of, and have enumerated many times, for why the English should reject Thatcherism, I here present another - rejecting Thatcherism would be the best way to diminish the desire of Scots to abandon us, and thereby strengthen the Union.

[They've lost the plot....]

Let the Scots have their independence, if that is what they really want. Perhaps then all those Scots mp's in England will go back to their native land and mess up their own parliament, and leave the English to it? Nice thought but I very much doubt it will ever happen, because they all screw too much money out of being down here.

What alternative is there for voting? Look at the complete and utter balls Labour have made of their pathetic attempt at so called government. No political party could have spent, wrecked, legislated and interferred more with little but negative outcomes....or cleared off with so much loot as Labour. Labour are a shambolic, dishonest and utterly disgraceful collection of incompetent, greedy people who should be banned from ever holding office again, unless it is in Iraq.

[Verion]

Oh come now...
I hear this argument all the time.

"It's not just the banks that are to blame... it's all of us as well because of our obsession with credit."
At the time of the recession I had never borrowed money. I don't demand cheap air travel or cheap petrol either - I simply don't have money for cars and exotic holidays. I'd love to know how I even collectively would cause the breakdown of financial institutions or the economy.

"The fact the Scottish are disillusioned with the union isn't just their fault, it's ours too by voting Thatcherite."
Again - I've never voted conservative. I've voted once. That was for the Lib Dems, who you claim the Scottish support. Since then they sucked... I suppose that's my fault too.

Where credit is due... I did mock some scottish friends for enjoying taking the piss out of the english - because the english are weak nowadays. It's not even cool to diss them anymore.

But I'm 20 years of age. I don't know what you would have expected me to do to court the Scottish and encourage the union in that time.

[lankou]

Blame, what blame, the sooner they are independent the better as far as I am concerned.

[Verion]

I'm pretty neutral to the idea. I think you Scottish folks are alright and that you share your identity with us to a degree; at least with us up north... And to undo the past seems like a step backward to me. Not to mention I have no idea how you folks will manage should you choose independence. But I leave it upto you. I don't want to force you guys into or out of any union between us. You want to kick up a mess and f**k up, well... that's your mess to deal with. Just don't come back to us with teary eyes and a cap in hand. If you're going to go independent then make sure it'll work beforehand.

[uganda]

It is just that, in addition to all the other good reasons I can think of, and have enumerated many times, for why the English should reject Thatcherism, I here present another - rejecting Thatcherism would be the best way to diminish the desire of Scots to abandon us, and thereby strengthen the Union.

I believe the English should reject Thatcherism too, for no better reason than we have been buying snake-oil off her and her successors for well over 30 years now, but it is not my place or yours to tell English people how to vote, if it means the Scottish people want to abandon the union, that is an unintended consequence and not something for which the English electorate should additionally be blamed. You might equally blame those who oppose Thatcherism for not providing a viable alternative. But I don't want to lead your thread into a debate about right v left when firstly I am neither right nor left and secondly I don't think that's what you want to discuss.

I don't think you build a good case for the English being to 'blame', but I do think you build a good case for why independence is the only option for Scotland if they want to be properly represented.

[coalition]

You can include Wales in that, some police can't walk alone in Wales coal areas, they are likely to have something heavy dropped on them. Thatcher abused Wales and its needs all the time she was in power...and, as with Scotland, payback is on the way. This is always the outcome from Tories trying to grab any loose change out of essential support funds, if you stop paying the Rent you get booted out. Droopy Cameo has not only stopped paying the rent, he wants to exploit Wales like a robber Baron.

An outcome from stupidity and greed...who wants a government or Crown, who do nothing for their country. We don't even want the swine in England, he lost the Election.

[Verion]

I don't think London represents the interests of the north of england effectively either. Infact you could argue that paris doesn't represent the rest of france that well... ultimately why should it be that scotland and wales are upset more so than a place such as cumbria?

I know our politicians suck and if I were you I'd want rid of them too... but is that really going to change things if you go independent? In theory Scotland would finally have it's particular interests at heart. But I doubt it'll do much to cut the bullshit. And I think it'll do a lot worse in that you'll have to be extrmely efficient in restructuring absolutely everything - to avoid setting the country too far back financially and diplomatically, in becoming independent.

I thought we'd finally put the past behind us and started taking pride in being united... except for football, and that stupid war the other side of the world

[coalition]

You have fallen hook line and sinker for the defense mantra, of the City swindlers, it is this which allows a rotten Dictatorship to survive and even further exploit the people of this benighted country. Everyone has a dream, a space of their own, if food is placed on the table, we eat it...only later do we realise it is poisoned, it was tainted money obtained by deceit, they sold of your credit to other swine, at a profit we were duped, we are the victims of a massive swindle, people like you make it easier for them to continue doing so.
If someone mugs or rapes you, why would you blame yourself.

[Jim Franklin]

We English must take a large share of the blame for the surge in support for the SNP, and for the desire for more devolution, even independence, in Scotland in recent decades. Or rather those English who keep voting for Thatcherism must take a large share of the blame.

Throughout the 1980s and into the 90s, the Scots ever more resoundingly rejected Tory Thatcherism, but a large enough minority of the English voted for it, to deliver Thatcherite governments that the Scots themselves did not support. Nevertheless, the far more numerous Engish mostly decided electoral outcomes for Britain as a whole. Thus it increasingly began to appear that the English were imposing upon Scotland a government that the Scots themselves hated. Furthermore, this government elected by the English and largely unsupported in Scotland, used its' English mandate to impose policies on Scotland which the Scots never voted for and didn't want.

The worst example of this was when the Tories imposed the hated Poll Tax upon Scotland a full year before the English suffered it, and ignored all Scottish protests completely. Only when it was imposed in England too and the English also started protesting en masse, did the government actually start listening. It should be easy for any intelligent person to realise how bad this must have looked in Scotland.

As Thatcherism continued to be imposed upon Britain by the English against Scottish wishes, even after Thatcher herself had departed, support for the Tories in Scotland completely collapsed and by 1997 they had no Scottish MPs at all. Meanwhile, in response to what was in effect the English imposition of Thatcherism upon a reluctant Scotland, the independence movement in Scotland was growing in strength, and support for more devolution soared. Labour, unlike the Tories, were still strong in Scotland, but to retain their support they felt it necessary to respond to Scottish aspirations by promising a devolution referendum, which was duly held after Labour came to power. The Scots then resoundingly voted for devolution.

But by now there was a Labour government in power that many Scots DID vote for. However, it soon began to become apparent that it wasn't the kind of truly progressive Labour government that the Scots wanted. Indeed, New Labour appeared to be calibrated to suit Tory southeast England much more than the Scots, and much of the hated Thatcherism continued, and in some ways was even intensified. Slowly at first, increasing numbers of Scottish Labour supporters began to desert, some to the Liberal Democrats but quite a few to the SNP. Support for yet more devolution, even independence, continued to grow.

The icing on the cake was when the Liberal Democrats, supported by significant numbers of Scots as supposedly the only remaining non-Thatcherite Unionist Party, joined in coalition with the hated Tories in 2010. As a direct consequence, in the 2011 Scottish Parliament elections, Liberal Democrat support utterly collapsed, most of it going to the SNP. This delivered an SNP majority.

Scotland now thus finds itself with a Nationalist government with a working majority, in favour of independence, with a substantial majority of Scots favouring much more devolution, and a large and growing minority favouring full independence. This is happening primarily because of a total Scottish rejection of Thatcherism, which is all they seem to be getting from not only the Tories, but to a large extent Labour as well, and now it seems also the Liberal Democrats. And we the English keep voting for this. And the Scots reject the choice we are making for them. It is the electoral choices we in England are making which is driving the Scots away.

RUBBISH. There has always been a core of Scots who wanted to be Independent, and their likely always will be whilst they are not. The latest survey showed that 71% of Scots do not support Independence and as such it is a busted flush.

But then, just another excuse to knock Maggie...change the flipping record or next you'll blame her for the Slave trade and the execution of Jesus!!

[uganda]

RUBBISH. There has always been a core of Scots who wanted to be Independent, and their likely always will be whilst they are not. The latest survey showed that 71% of Scots do not support Independence and as such it is a busted flush.

That may or may not be true but is a separate issue.

But then, just another excuse to knock Maggie...change the flipping record or next you'll blame her for the Slave trade and the execution of Jesus!!

Change the record yourself, the reason Thatcher casts such a long shadow over Scotland is that her legacy remains today and she is broadly hated for it. If you disagree with their view on that, fair enough, but then you don't live in Scotland, and if you did, then you would be in a tiny minority.

[Barry]

I don't accept any blame. However I would like to see the SNP gain even more power in Scotland and when they leave the Union, they can crash and burn.

[srb7677]

I don't accept any blame. However I would like to see the SNP gain even more power in Scotland and when they leave the Union, they can crash and burn.

Your usual Christian charity shines through, Barry.

[srb7677]

But then, just another excuse to knock Maggie...change the flipping record or next you'll blame her for the Slave trade and the execution of Jesus!!

I don't need to blame the crimes of history on Thatcher. She inflicted more than enough crap in her 11 years in power to provide all the ammunition one needs to justify hating her.

[Jim Franklin]

That may or may not be true but is a separate issue.

Not a separate issue at all, very relevant to the subject matter, if 71% of Scots are against dissolution of the Union, then 100% of English should not feel any blame for anything in Scotland unless they did it personally.

Change the record yourself, the reason Thatcher casts such a long shadow over Scotland is that her legacy remains today and she is broadly hated for it. If you disagree with their view on that, fair enough, but then you don't live in Scotland, and if you did, then you would be in a tiny minority.

I wasn't talking to you, but as you have taken it upon yourself to comment, I suggest you look at history. I may not live north of the border, but I know a lot of people up there, many of whom I visit regularly, especially in Hawick, Edinburgh and Glasgow. Only a small number of Scots blame Maggie in the way your implying, they blame, like most sensible people, a combination of people and events for the decline in Scottish industry.

Maggie fought the Unions and made some mistakes like all Government leaders, but the blame is complicated with many players, so single out one for your vitriol is childish, myopic and avoiding reality.

[Barry]

Your usual Christian charity shines through, Barry.

Sarcastic personal attacks add nothing to any debate.

[srb7677]

Sarcastic personal attacks add nothing to any debate.

Nor does wishing ill upon an entire people just because you disagree with their political choices.

[Barry]

Nor does wishing ill upon an entire people just because you disagree with their political choices.

I wish ill on the SNP as a political party, pretty much as I do on all nationalists, not on an entire people.
Please don't make personal insults and disparage me based on my religious beliefs, it is against the forum rules.
Please don't put words into my mouth either.

[srb7677]

I wish ill on the SNP as a political party, pretty much as I do on all nationalists, not on an entire people.
Please don't make personal insults and disparage me based on my religious beliefs, it is against the forum rules.
Please don't put words into my mouth either.

Barry, it is possible that I have misunderstood you. When, in post #14 you used the words " when they leave the Union, they can crash and burn", I read that as you talking about the Scottish people. But upon re-reading your words, it is possible to discern this as possibly only intended to refer to the SNP. Your wording was perhaps a little more ambiguous than you intended, and if in consequence I misunderstood you, I apologise. Any subsequent negative comment from me was borne of that misunderstaning, and I retract it.

[Chookie]

I here present another - rejecting Thatcherism would be the best way to diminish the desire of Scots to abandon us, and thereby strengthen the Union.

I'm afraid it's far too late for that to be an option. We despised her, and her policies for reasons other than her very faulty economic theories. Her blatantly "Little Englander" outlook got right up our nasal orifices, and when she, after being invited to attend as the Monarchs representative or whatever the term is, attempted to lecture the General Assembly of the Church of Scotland, (telling us to remember the words of that glorious hymn "Jerusalem"), which isn't, so I'm told accepted as a hymn in Scotland.

Be that as it may, we din't like her stridency, her version of Toryism (not that we liked anyone else's either), her chauvinism or her militarism. She would have reached her proper depth as a politician had it not been for the events of 1982.

[srb7677]

Be that as it may, we din't like her stridency, her version of Toryism (not that we liked anyone else's either), her chauvinism or her militarism. She would have reached her proper depth as a politician had it not been for the events of 1982.

It is worth bearing in mind that there are many amongst the English south of the border who would agree with those sentiments. I for one hated the woman. Only a minority of us ever voted for her, remember. And from what I can observe from down here, Alex Salmond and the SNP seem to be a genuinely progressive political force of a kind that many in England yearn for but just aren't getting. To tell you the truth, I would prefer Salmond and his lot running the entire UK. And if I lived in Scotland I would definitely be voting SNP.

But I really would hate to see Scotland abandon its' progressive friends south of the border, and leave us. I would like to see you championing a truly progressive alternative from within the UK, and persuading the English and their numbskull politicians by example. Spearhead the fight against the evils of Thatcherism from within the UK, and win the good fight for ALL of us.

But if it really is too late for that (and the wealth of pig-ignorant anti-Scottish commentary from some of the more right wing elements down here, including on this forum, really don't help at all), and you do decide to leave, I will watch you go with sadness, and fear for what that means for us, but you will go with my blessing and well wishes.

[uganda]

Not a separate issue at all, very relevant to the subject matter, if 71% of Scots are against dissolution of the Union, then 100% of English should not feel any blame for anything in Scotland unless they did it personally.

No, it IS a separate issue. We are not talking about whether Scottish people want independence or not, we have your thread and others for that, the proposition is simply about why some might and why that might be. I agree with you that the English people are not to blame for that simply because they chose freely whom to vote for, but that is not what you were talking about, you were only talking about how many Scottish people wanted independence.

I wasn't talking to you, but as you have taken it upon yourself to comment, I suggest you look at history.

I chose to intervene because it is a public forum and everything we put out there is fair game. Deal with it. And I do look at history, thank you, as anyone who reads my posts will know, whether they agree with my interpretation of that history or not.

I may not live north of the border, but I know a lot of people up there, many of whom I visit regularly, especially in Hawick, Edinburgh and Glasgow.

Marvellous. Well, I used to live in Glasgow and my Auntie Vi used to have a West Highland Terrier once. Or at least I think she did. So now I'm an expert, right? See, the point I was making was not that you were not qualified to have an opinion on Scotland, nor that you were ignorant of Scottish matters, but simply that you are not representative of the Scottish people so your opinion doesn't count. And neither does mine. They hate Thatcherism, a political philosophy that they perceive, rightly or wrongly, to have ravaged their country, and they would like to vote it out but they can't - because there are a lot more English people and ultimately they decide who the government is going to be. If you don't believe me, look at the recent electoral history of Scotland.

Only a small number of Scots blame Maggie in the way your implying, they blame, like most sensible people, a combination of people and events for the decline in Scottish industry.

A small number? Well, I would disagree. But what we can be sure of is that only a tiny number vote for the Tories in Scotland, and yet they regularly get Tory governments. And as for blaming one person, well of course Maggie was only the figurehead, but she was a pretty important one, and she was one of the biggest snake-oil salesmen in our political history. I'm not stupid Jim, and even if I was, I worked in Whitehall enough during Thatcher's reign to know a little of the inner machinations of her government, thanks very much.

Maggie fought the Unions and made some mistakes like all Government leaders, but the blame is complicated with many players, so single out one for your vitriol is childish, myopic and avoiding reality.

Fighting the Unions was the right thing to do, but she threw the baby out with the bathwater and did so quite deliberately. But in any case, I have already explained that I am well aware that she was not a lone agent, and for you to presume I would be so childish, myopic and avoiding reality to argue that she was, is childish, myopic and avoiding reality.

[Jim Franklin]

Uganda, I am well aware this is a public forum, but you chose to comment on points I made specifically to another member, you chose to reply, fair enough, but your comments that Jocks don't vote Tory because of Maggie is simply daft and insulting to Jocks, most are not that narrow minded. The majority see the Tories as typical of the English establishment that does not have their interests foremost in their mind, and they are right in a sense, but that is also one reason why Labour is now so poorly represented in Scotland and the SNP does so well.

[uganda]

Uganda, I am well aware this is a public forum, but you chose to comment on points I made specifically to another member, you chose to reply, fair enough, but your comments that Jocks don't vote Tory because of Maggie is simply daft and insulting to Jocks, most are not that narrow minded. The majority see the Tories as typical of the English establishment that does not have their interests foremost in their mind, and they are right in a sense, but that is also one reason why Labour is now so poorly represented in Scotland and the SNP does so well.

Neither daft nor insulting, my experience backs it up and also the election results of the last 30 years reflect it. The Tories had never been popular in Scotland prior to 1979, but after 1979, and particularly after Thatcher started to use Scotland as a guinea-pig for her nuttier schemes, they have been largely wiped out. Perhaps you hang out with particularly affluent sweaties?

Labour has also lost support in Scotland, but that is for different reasons, and that is an even greater demonstration that Westminster simply cannot adequately represent Scotland whoever gets returned to power.

Whether independence is wanted by the majority or not, or whether it is even feasible, are separate to the points I was making.

[Hyperduck Quack Quack]

We English must take some blame for the growth of Scottish Nationalism

Correction: We British must take some blame for the growth of Scottish Nationalism. It is the collective decline the awareness and affection for our common British identity, heritage and destiny that has caused some to seek the break-up of our island nation.

Thatcherism was seen as an English phenomenon - yes. And the Tories have never really put that behind them. The Lib Dems have probably burnt their boats in Scotland by betraying their voters to support the Tories. As for Labour - the last Labour government, whose prime minister, chancellor and several other cabinet members were Scottish, was such a disaster in its final years that it probably helped the growing sentiment in England that it would be better off without Scotland!

The SNP is in power in Scotland and like all governments, it will eventually become unpopular. If Labour gets its act together again I think the SNP will be toppled in coming years.

[srb7677]

Correction: We British must take some blame for the growth of Scottish Nationalism. It is the collective decline the awareness and affection for our common British identity, heritage and destiny that has caused some to seek the break-up of our island nation.

It is one section of Britain imposing upon another section of Britain, which already has a seperate history, governments that they loathe, which is creating their growing desire to break away.

[Durzo Blint]

To: srb7677

Your OP was wonderfully put together and it was a joy to read. I may not agree with everything you said, but I have to complement you on an outstanding post.

Nice job.

[Durzo Blint]

I don't accept any blame. However I would like to see the SNP gain even more power in Scotland and when they leave the Union, they can crash and burn.

While I don't understand the all the politics involved in this subject, you seem a little bitter about Scotland leaving the Union, IMAO.

How would Scotland leaving the Union affect those of you in England?

1) Not much, I don't care.

2) It would affect us deeply.

3) The Tories would be upset.

4) Labour would be upset.

5) Politicians would get very drunk and get up the next day and say "we did what".

6) Jim Franklin would smoke a joint. (I'm joking of course)

7) Life would go on as normal and no one would be the worse for wear.

[coalition]

Any Border ultimately means conflict, with what we have calling themselves Politicians, inept, stupid and grasping, I consider this will be sooner rather than later.

[Hyperduck Quack Quack]

It is one section of Britain imposing upon another section of Britain, which already has a seperate history, governments that they loathe, which is creating their growing desire to break away.

But only a minority of Scots want independence - between a quarter and a third, according to a recent report. That's why Salmond wants a referendum in 2014 and not now. But I think he's miscalculated on two counts. One - the SNP is in government in Scotland and what happens to all governments? They become less popular over time. By 2014 the SNP and the idea of Scottish independence might be less popular than now! Two - Scottish independence was based on the idea of a strong independent Scotland within the EU, no doubt with lots of subsidies - a sort of 'Tartan Tiger' - clearly with all the EU difficulties, that ain't going to happen now!

I'm a British Republican. As such I don't want to see our island nation torn apart, although I do want to see the monarchy abolished. I recognise that the majority of British people support the monarchy and this country won't become a republic until we have an unpopular king or queen on the throne. Scottish nationalists should likewise accept that they don't speak for the majority of Scottish people, let alone the majority of British people.

Also it must be remembered that Scotland itself was formed from a series of independent kingdoms. What if Scottish independence is the beginning of a slippery slope and, say, a Fife independence movement is formed, to restore the ancient Kingdom of Fife?

[srb7677]

But only a minority of Scots want independence - between a quarter and a third, according to a recent report. That's why Salmond wants a referendum in 2014 and not now. But I think he's miscalculated on two counts. One - the SNP is in government in Scotland and what happens to all governments? They become less popular over time. By 2014 the SNP and the idea of Scottish independence might be less popular than now! Two - Scottish independence was based on the idea of a strong independent Scotland within the EU, no doubt with lots of subsidies - a sort of 'Tartan Tiger' - clearly with all the EU difficulties, that ain't going to happen now!

I'm a British Republican. As such I don't want to see our island nation torn apart, although I do want to see the monarchy abolished. I recognise that the majority of British people support the monarchy and this country won't become a republic until we have an unpopular king or queen on the throne. Scottish nationalists should likewise accept that they don't speak for the majority of Scottish people, let alone the majority of British people.

Also it must be remembered that Scotland itself was formed from a series of independent kingdoms. What if Scottish independence is the beginning of a slippery slope and, say, a Fife independence movement is formed, to restore the ancient Kingdom of Fife?

I hope the Scots don't leave us either, but I do recognise it as entirely their choice. It is true that currently only a minority of Scots seem to favour outright independence, but it is a large and growing minority, with many undecideds. But it is also true that a substantial majority of Scots seem to favour maximum devolution, with only defence and foreign affairs being handled at Westminster, with everything else devolved to Scotland. So it seems that the Scots DO want the repatriation of more powers: they just vary as to how far they wish to go.

And I am with you on the republicanism, by the way.

[Hyperduck Quack Quack]

While I'm opposed Scottish (or Welsh, or English) independence, I've always been in favour of devolution - even a sort of federal Britain.
But this would have to be on a level playing field. England - or perhaps regions of England, should have a certain amount of autonomy too, similar to Scotland and Wales. Scotland has kept its separate legal system since then formation of the UK, while Wales has kept its language, which has flourished in recent years, and is really the only thing that differentiates Welshness from Englishness.

The USA is a devolved nation, where the states even have the decision over whether or not to allow capital punishnment, which is surely something that should be decided at federal level.

[srb7677]

To: srb7677

Your OP was wonderfully put together and it was a joy to read. I may not agree with everything you said, but I have to complement you on an outstanding post.

Nice job.

To be honest, I originally wrote the post for the history forum that I frequent (under the same username that I use here), and intended it to be an historical account of how Scottish seperatism grew to be so strong. But I was actually sailing a bit close to the wind since that forum has introduced a ban on partisan politics!

Anyway, I realised that the post would be a potentially good debating point for this forum so I copied and pasted it into the OP here. (Hopefully, it is not against site rules to copy and paste one's own material from elsewhere. I see no reason why it should be.)

[thomas]

To be honest, I originally wrote the post for the history forum that I frequent (under the same username that I use here), and intended it to be an historical account of how Scottish seperatism grew to be so strong. But I was actually sailing a bit close to the wind since that forum has introduced a ban on partisan politics!

Anyway, I realised that the post would be a potentially good debating point for this forum so I copied and pasted it into the OP here. (Hopefully, it is not against site rules to copy and paste one's own material from elsewhere. I see no reason why it should be.)

Hi srb


Personally I think it is unbelievable how little so many so called british people know about the history of these islands , as you can see many times by some of the ignorant posts on many subjects , let alone politics!


So to our american friends like durzo , don’t worry about not understanding whats going on. You are not alone it seems.


I have a lot of time for you srb so please don’t take anything I say the wrong way.


I think this dumbing down and lack of understanding is very much to do with the elites attempting to impose this british identity over all of us , for the last 300 years.


I don’t think we have to go into the fact ( except to point out ) that Scotland and England , two of the oldest countries in the world , have been at constant war with each other ( including in their previous sub kingdoms guise before the nations were formed) for a 1000 years!


The scots English border is some of the most fought over land in the history of this planet , indeed the famous Robert louis Stevenson remarked


“ never has two adjacent peoples more unalterably different than the scots and English”.


It is well known and accepted how the Scottish elite were bribed into a union with England , in what was supposed to be a union of equals , it quickly became apparent to the scots lords that they had been duped (having only 45 members and 16 peers in a parliament of 500 English representatives ) and immediately the first Scottish home rule bill was proposed by lord sea field in 1714.


What amazes me here is the fact that so many people seem to think we have had 300 years of one big happy family till the nasty snp and alec salmond came along when this is simply NOT THE CASE!!!!


Bear in mind the people never got a say in the union to begin with , there being riots and unrest in both England and Scotland , but even so there was 150 years of unrest , rebellion and armed uprisings in Scotland till the mid19th century against the union.


How do you expect the Scottish people to love a “british” identity and an English language that was imposed upon them by the barrel of a gun?????


There was only 12 English schools in Scotland by the mid 18th century , most of the country still being part of a ghaidhealtachd ( Scottish gaelic speaking areas ) and the british government , through massive grants and support of the SPCK ( society for the propogation of christian knowledge) to root out the scots irish language and teach them their duty to king and country by imposing the English tongue!


Is it any wonder the scots were in constant rebellion to british rule and looked upon the union as slavish subjection , with the persecution of our language and culture?????


We have all heard of the 1715 and 1745 jacobite rebellions , but what of the lesser known 1820 uprising , once again , quelled by brutality , deportations and executions?!


The friends of the people and the united Scotsmen wanted , in the late 18th and early 19th centuries , to dissolve the union and set up a Scottish republic.


Remember srb much of rural Scotland being cleared in the 19 th century and the people either emigrating to places like america( south carolina has more people of Scottish descent than Scotland does!!!)or being forced into slums in the cities to find work.
There is records of families in fife unable to find work for their children as the only work to be found was in Edinburgh and they had to be able to speak English!!!


Ailean dall the blind bard of glengarry wrote


Thainig oirnn do dh`albainn crois ( a cross has been placed on us in Scotland ) in reference to the plight of our land and the clearances like the bliadhna na losgadh ( the year of the burnings ) in 1814.


Is it any wonder at the growth of radicalism in the 19th century????


`Is it any wonder by the early 20 th century that we produced socialist republicans like john MacLean???


To anyone who actually studies it , Scottish nationalism is not some recent phenomenon , but stretches back 300 years.


Remember , the Scottish socialist republicans merged with labour in 1940 and labour originally supported Scottish home rule , which was why they drew so much support in Scotland.


Thatcher was hated in Glasgow , my home , and I well remember as a child her bailiffs at our neighbours doors for non payment of her poll tax , and the street out in support and solidarity.


I cannot blame her for Scottish nationalism , she was just one of many nails in the coffin of Britain.


What about the Scottish devolution referendum of 1979 , before thatcher came to power???
What about the controversies surrounding that?????


Scottish independence is inevitable , when not if!!!


My question is , where is englands voice????


Where is the English voice over how Westminster treats the English people???

[thomas]

While I don't understand the all the politics involved in this subject, you seem a little bitter about Scotland leaving the Union, IMAO.

How would Scotland leaving the Union affect those of you in England?

1) Not much, I don't care.

2) It would affect us deeply.

3) The Tories would be upset.

4) Labour would be upset.

5) Politicians would get very drunk and get up the next day and say "we did what".

6) Jim Franklin would smoke a joint. (I'm joking of course)

7) Life would go on as normal and no one would be the worse for wear.

A little bitter???

our christian friend is tame compared to some comments durzo!

[srb7677]

Thomas, I am actually familiar with much of what you outlined about Scottish history in your post #36, and am aware that many Scots opposed Union with England from the outset. You will probably find that I am much more familiar with your history than most Englishmen you will ever meet. However, in spite of the sufferings of Scotland over the years, I believe that Scottish seperatist sentiment had subsided somewhat by the middle of the 20th century, though of course I know it never disappeared. But yes, it began to take off again in subsequent years, even before the English chose Thatcherism, particularly in the 70s when Scots became aware that most of the new North Sea oil was in Scottish waters, but that most of the profits went south into England.

However, I do hold to my basic premise that the imposition of Thatcherism upon a reluctant Scotland, boosted Scottish nationalism as never before in the 20th century, and that the urge for independence today is much stronger than it otherwise would have been (at least yet) because of Thatcherism.

[thomas]

Thomas, I am actually familiar with much of what you outlined about Scottish history in your post #36, and am aware that many Scots opposed Union with England from the outset. You will probably find that I am much more familiar with your history than most Englishmen you will ever meet. However, in spite of the sufferings of Scotland over the years, I believe that Scottish seperatist sentiment had subsided somewhat by the middle of the 20th century, though of course I know it never disappeared. But yes, it began to take off again in subsequent years, even before the English chose Thatcherism, particularly in the 70s when Scots became aware that most of the new North Sea oil was in Scottish waters, but that most of the profits went south into England.

However, I do hold to my basic premise that the imposition of Thatcherism upon a reluctant Scotland, boosted Scottish nationalism as never before in the 20th century, and that the urge for independence today is much stronger than it otherwise would have been (at least yet) because of Thatcherism.

Thanks srb. Scottish independance sentiment may have been on the back foot after decades of world wars and the great depression but the sentiment was still there by the middle of the 20th century. More apathy than embracing the union , and remember the sight in two world wars of the old enemies of france and england fighting on the same side showed how many old scores were put to the side momentarily in the face of the carnage and destruction.
Like most causes , the flame of Scottish nationalism has burnt brighter and lower over the years for many differing reasons.
Are you saying the british nationalist left would have continued to fool the people of Scotland evermore if it had not been for oil and thatcher???


How long could the british establishment continue to play good cop bad cop with the Scottish people using the unionist parties of labour and conservative???


The Labour Party first founded in Scotland on a ‘Home Rule All Round Programme’ reneged upon this after winning each election. Ramsay MacDonald was London Treasurer of the ‘Scottish Home Rule Association", founded in 1888. Atlee supported Scottish home rule till his election, then declared it impracticable, as did many others.
Labour voted down their own Scottish Devolution Bill in 1979, led by Brian Wilson, whose ‘Scotland is British Campaign’ had the support of the CBI, Chamber of Commerce, Economic League, Aims of Industry, and the Adam Smith Institute .
The Labour Party in Scotland changed its name to the Scottish Labour Party, but still must take its orders from the British Labour Party in London.



We all know the Brit left of old, despite all their cherished ideological differences be it on the old Soviet Union, the Labour Party and parliamentarism or CND, the one thing that united all of them was the Scottish Question. 'State capitalists', 'degenerate workers', tankies and reformists are all good old fashioned Unionists when it comes to Scotland.
Look at how the british left denigrate and dismiss the snp -- racists , nutters , tartan tories to name but a few!


However the British left cannot be so dismissive of John MacLean. With James Connolly, MacLean was the foremost Marxist to come out of the British isles: first Soviet consul in Scotland no less. And it is MacLean who poses a real problem for the Brit left. Let us be clear - John MacLean, without losing his Marxism, supported the cause of Scottish independence through a Scottish Workers Republic. All the excuses apologies and distortions from Brit socialists will not remove this fact, that very truth still riles them today ! A Marxist case for Scottish independence- it's just not British is it ?



John MacLean told workers at his mass socialist, anti- war rallies that if they wanted to fight a Hun to go and fight the English King. He also commented to Ulster Unionists that England went to war to defend Catholic Belgium against Protestant Germany and sent the Ulster Volunteer force to their deaths by using them as canon fodder, as they did with Scots troops.


The british unionist labour party could not go on indefinetly , Thatcher or no , fooling the ordinary people of Scotland by keeping them in this unequal union.
Sooner or later their time would have come , and despite the blanket anti snp rhetoric in the british controlled Scottish media , the Scottish people are finally casting off the dead hand of british labour.


The power of the internet and freedom from the brit nat media filter that allows the scots people to hear other views outwith the establishment propoganda , using social networking sites and forums to discuss topics , and more importantly to spread the truth are far more powerfull reasons that help Scottish nationalists than thatcher ever was!


Had there been no Thatcher Scotland would still have eventually turned from british labour.


It is like watching a country awaken after years of a labour induced coma.


Thatcher and the oil were just icing on the cake!

[marybrown]

Scotland was a part of the GB by force..

After 300 years...set them free!!

[uganda]

Scotland was a part of the GB by force..

No, it wasn't. The Union was negotiated by the two countries.

After 300 years...set them free!!

This is a meaningless slogan, not an argument. Scotland doesn't need to be set free by anyone, it is perfectly capable of deciding what it wants to do and doing it.

[marybrown]

No, it wasn't. The Union was negotiated by the two countries.



This is a meaningless slogan, not an argument. Scotland doesn't need to be set free by anyone, it is perfectly capable of deciding what it wants to do and doing it.

You really are a dog in a manger...I actually don't think Scotland will ever be free......

Albeit their protestations....

[uganda]

You really are a dog in a manger...I actually don't think Scotland will ever be free......

Albeit their protestations....

This is all just meaningless, it's not an argument. Where is your argument?

PS. While you're constructing your argument, I suggest you look up 'dog in a manger' and then explain exactly how it applies to me.

[srb7677]

Thanks srb. Scottish independance sentiment may have been on the back foot after decades of world wars and the great depression but the sentiment was still there by the middle of the 20th century. More apathy than embracing the union , and remember the sight in two world wars of the old enemies of france and england fighting on the same side showed how many old scores were put to the side momentarily in the face of the carnage and destruction.
Like most causes , the flame of Scottish nationalism has burnt brighter and lower over the years for many differing reasons.
Are you saying the british nationalist left would have continued to fool the people of Scotland evermore if it had not been for oil and thatcher???


How long could the british establishment continue to play good cop bad cop with the Scottish people using the unionist parties of labour and conservative???


The Labour Party first founded in Scotland on a ‘Home Rule All Round Programme’ reneged upon this after winning each election. Ramsay MacDonald was London Treasurer of the ‘Scottish Home Rule Association", founded in 1888. Atlee supported Scottish home rule till his election, then declared it impracticable, as did many others.
Labour voted down their own Scottish Devolution Bill in 1979, led by Brian Wilson, whose ‘Scotland is British Campaign’ had the support of the CBI, Chamber of Commerce, Economic League, Aims of Industry, and the Adam Smith Institute .
The Labour Party in Scotland changed its name to the Scottish Labour Party, but still must take its orders from the British Labour Party in London.



We all know the Brit left of old, despite all their cherished ideological differences be it on the old Soviet Union, the Labour Party and parliamentarism or CND, the one thing that united all of them was the Scottish Question. 'State capitalists', 'degenerate workers', tankies and reformists are all good old fashioned Unionists when it comes to Scotland.
Look at how the british left denigrate and dismiss the snp -- racists , nutters , tartan tories to name but a few!


However the British left cannot be so dismissive of John MacLean. With James Connolly, MacLean was the foremost Marxist to come out of the British isles: first Soviet consul in Scotland no less. And it is MacLean who poses a real problem for the Brit left. Let us be clear - John MacLean, without losing his Marxism, supported the cause of Scottish independence through a Scottish Workers Republic. All the excuses apologies and distortions from Brit socialists will not remove this fact, that very truth still riles them today ! A Marxist case for Scottish independence- it's just not British is it ?



John MacLean told workers at his mass socialist, anti- war rallies that if they wanted to fight a Hun to go and fight the English King. He also commented to Ulster Unionists that England went to war to defend Catholic Belgium against Protestant Germany and sent the Ulster Volunteer force to their deaths by using them as canon fodder, as they did with Scots troops.


The british unionist labour party could not go on indefinetly , Thatcher or no , fooling the ordinary people of Scotland by keeping them in this unequal union.
Sooner or later their time would have come , and despite the blanket anti snp rhetoric in the british controlled Scottish media , the Scottish people are finally casting off the dead hand of british labour.


The power of the internet and freedom from the brit nat media filter that allows the scots people to hear other views outwith the establishment propoganda , using social networking sites and forums to discuss topics , and more importantly to spread the truth are far more powerfull reasons that help Scottish nationalists than thatcher ever was!


Had there been no Thatcher Scotland would still have eventually turned from british labour.


It is like watching a country awaken after years of a labour induced coma.


Thatcher and the oil were just icing on the cake!

Thanks Thomas. I don't actually think that the differences between us on this issue are very great. Mainly, they seem to boil down to this - you seem to regard the current strength of Scottish nationalist sentiment as something inevitable, that would have happened anyway regardless of Thatcher, whereas I tend to think that the imposition of Thatcherism upon a reluctant Scotland by the English boosted Scottish nationalist sentiment quite considerably more than would otherwise have been the case, at least at this stage. Even if the growing Scottish desire for self-determination was inevitable (and I am wholly undecided on that point), I am certain that the imposition of Thatcherism hastened it quite considerably. I also suspect that had the English actually been electing governments that the Scots could approve of, Scottish nationalist sentiment would be significantly less strong at this point.

And I understand what you say in regards to the Unionist left. Some of their arguments are as silly as anything emanating from the right. One of their representatives on this forum has even made the ridiculous claim that Scottish independence would inevitably result in civil war in Scotland! An all too typically laughable example of the kind of scaremongering being indulged in. But please don't make the mistake of thinking that such voices are wholly representative of the entire British left. I myself am a solid English left winger, yet I have never been opposed to Scottish aspirations. I admit that I think it would be great if Scotland chose to remain in the Union, and fight the good fight against the evils unleashed by Thatcher alongside those such as I. But I fully accept that this is for you Scots to decide. Personally, I have favoured Scottish devolution since I first became politically aware as a teenager in the early 80s. If you Scots want more of it, I will support you . If you want full independence, you can have it with my blessing, albeit tinged with regret. The decision is yours to make, and whatever you decide, it should be honoured. And we English should keep the hell out of it, and stop lobbing desperate scare stories north of the border.

Some of us on the left down here are willing to accept wherever your aspirations lead you, as being only fair and just.

[Jim Franklin]

Some of us on the left down here are willing to accept wherever your aspirations lead you, as being only fair and just.

More like most of us on the left are willing to see this entire island of nations sink and form a cess pit from witch a great Communist Muppet can rise up and crush the people who earn more than anyone on Income support!!

Could I simply point out to all those who are IGNORING some of the truth here...IT WAS A SCOTTISH KING THAT UNITED THE CROWNS AND BRIBED THE SCOTTISH NOBLES. The Jocks were sold out by JOCKS and not the English.

That has been the history of Scotland since the Pics formed the rag tag tribes more than 2500 years ago...the clans of Scotland are experts in bribery and back stabbing of their own against what should be a common foe...Before the majority blame all their ills on the English (for which we did cause many) they need to look at their own history without Hollywood or Rose tinted glasses on..

[thomas]

[/COLOR]

More like most of us on the left are willing to see this entire island of nations sink and form a cess pit from witch a great Communist Muppet can rise up and crush the people who earn more than anyone on Income support!!

Could I simply point out to all those who are IGNORING some of the truth here...IT WAS A SCOTTISH KING THAT UNITED THE CROWNS AND BRIBED THE SCOTTISH NOBLES. The Jocks were sold out by JOCKS and not the English.

That has been the history of Scotland since the Pics formed the rag tag tribes more than 2500 years ago...the clans of Scotland are experts in bribery and back stabbing of their own against what should be a common foe...Before the majority blame all their ills on the English (for which we did cause many) they need to look at their own history without Hollywood or Rose tinted glasses on..

Jim , srb and I are having a sensible exchange of views and as usual you butt in frothing at the mouth spouting ill informed crap and appealing to the sensibilities of the little Englanders.
Why don’t you just admit you don’t have a ****ing clue what you are talking about????


The Scottish king was invited by englands privy council to succeed the English queen , as we all know , 100 years BEFORE the political union of 1707. The countries didn’t unite nor were there any political union at this point , and during the coming years you cut off his successors head in 1649 and set up a republic.


What Scottish king , please tell , bribed his nobles and why would he need to , commanding their obedience and loyalty????


The Westminster tory government bribed the Scottish nobility of the time to vote for political union , lords like :
The Commisioner for Equippage & Daily Allowance (Duke of Queensberry): received £12 325 worth £1,717,220 today
Marquis of Tweedale: received £1000 worth £139,328 today


…to name but a few.


That was what the robert burns poem parcel o rogues was about , and no , no one is blaming the English people if you actually read what is being said. We are talking about the establishment and the ruling elite.


We don’t want to be ruled from Westminster anymore than you want to be ruled from Brussels.
We don’t want labelled british any more than you want to be labelled European.


We are not the ones constantly moaning about the world and voting labour/tory governments , and when they don’t represent your views , moaning even more.


What are you actually pro actively doing, jim , instead of moaning about the scots , brussells or commies????


Stop sitting on your hands and do something about englands problems , instead of voting for the same two parties and moaning when they shit on you.


Is it our fault your politicians wont give you a vote on England being part of the uk????
Is it our fault your politicians wont give you a say on being in the eu?????


If you paid as much attention to sorting out your own countries problems as you did to moaning about everyone elses , you might actually start progressing as a country instead of re living past glories.
Westminster is the problem , why don’t you do something about it???


…cause we are , rest assured!!!

[Jim Franklin]

Thomas, I know and understand our history, and I know that a lot of what English "leaders" did in Scotland was a disgrace by anyone's standards. I am aware who asked the James to take the thrown and I am aware who bribed who. The point I was making was that in large part, the Scottish people have acted against the interests of their own by siding with the English, and this is a historic fact that cannot be denied. Who is more responsible, the person the offers the bribe, or the weak who accept it? My money always goes on the weak, especially when it means selling out your nation, your people and your history, and that is exactly what a lot of Scots did, regardless of who asked who to do what, that is something you cannot deny.

The simple truth is that England and Scotland have a fractured history with plenty of mistakes on both sides of the border and Political fence, I do not want those mistakes to be compounded by mistakes made today. You know my stance on this, I feel that the Scots should determine their own future in a referendum, but equally I do feel that the English, Scots, Welsh and the Irish would be better as a truly democratic federal Union within which each state looks after it's own affairs and only comes together for common defence, international affairs, trade, Law/Order etc etc, things that they all share in common and would be cheaper together. The leader of this Union should be elected directly by the people and be limited in powers to only areas agreed by the Parliaments of each individual state on a mutual basis. All states would be equal in representation in the federal government, and this Government would have no Tax raising powers or legislative powers, they would rest with the national governments and powers granted to the federal executive by open and free votes within the national forum.

I firmly believe that despite our historical and sometimes cultural differences, the people of these Islands are better united together than divided, we truly are larger than the sum of our parts , and we need to maintain this. The status quo is untenable for the long term and must change, but we must not change for the sake of change, we must change in a way that is progress for all and increases the democracy for all parts of the Union so that leaders in all nations are duly elected in open and free votes and that all are represented equally to avoid the absurd situation we have of now of one being dominant on historic basis due to the "old boys network" and some stupid and perceived air of superiority.

I would build a new parliament building for England, away from Westminster, and make the Houses of Parliament into a tourist attraction. The federal Government would get a new Building in perhaps Runnymede, a place of historical significance for equality and real democracy. I would also have written constitutions for all states and the federal government.

That's how I truly think.

[Verion]

Not that I'm sure at all if you're right in what you say Jim, but your post 47, and srb's post #21, have really, REALLY shown your respective abilities in argument here.

Folks with that talent are the reason I'm still here I'll bet

Sorry to change the subject.

Are the SNP really the party to do as you say is right thomas?
Also; I have no problem with people calling me "european." Culturally I haven't much at all in common like.. but my history is from there as much as here. It's like that for many in these isles generally. People move around :P

[Verion]

I guess the difference is;

Should one describe a British accomplishment as "European" then everybody would still distinguish Britain from Europe and associate it with the British. We'd go "lol you europeans w/e guys" :P

Like when France built that mega-bridge and their prime minister was all like "France is Great, look at how awesome we are" and we just laugh and say "lol the British designed that 'master-piece' for you French folks".

Should one describe a Scottish accomplishment as "British" then most of the world would assume London did it. More champagne and tourists coming to London :P

And if you guys leave Britain, then that'll just leave England looking stupid next time it complains about the weather