This is a discussion on Obama a Blessing for Gun Dealers within the United States Politics Forum forums, part of the United States category; In the week since Obama has been elected, the prices of some guns, magazines, and ammunition has almost DOUBLED........and people ...
El Diablo Tejano
In the week since Obama has been elected, the prices of some guns, magazines, and ammunition has almost DOUBLED........and people are still paying it. I've tried for a week to get in touch with one of my favorite distributors but their phones have been busy since Nov. 5th. The most popular items? AK-47s of any variety, AR-15s and AR-15 stripped lower receivers, AK magazines, AR magazines, and 5.56x45 and 7.62x39 ammo. High-capacity pistols are selling lot hotcakes as well. A friend of mine owns a gun store that looks like it's been looted. He's placed large orders with distributors, but the guns are just trickling in. Once it's on the sales floor, it's gone within hours, sometimes minutes. He tried to place an order for AR-15s with Bushmaster, but found out that not only are they completely out of stock, but they're not even taking backorders anymore either. They were doing backorders, but then realized that they are behind by 56,000 rifles!
Then there's talk of a new stimulus package. Little does the government know that much of the stimulus will be spent on guns.
The way I see it, Obama has done more for the firearm industry than even the most costly and aggressive marketing campaign could've ever done. I find it humorous that the most anti-gun candidate to ever come down the pike is causing guns to literally fly out of the stores. Oh, the irony....it burns!
Last edited by Tantal; 12-11-2008 at 02:23 AM.
"That's a man.....That's a stand tall, walk straight, put God's share in the collection plate, Man"- Jack Ingram
either do it or don't. But I got places to be
I like to think that Obama is running round hitting all the other shops, stocking up on guns and ammo too, he's gotta protect himself!
You Americans. If you could just turn your most famous export, "fear of the black man" into a renewable energy source, you guys would be sorted.
Democracy is the recurrent suspicion that more than half of the people are right more than half of the time.
E. B. White
"To be honest, you think a/c jump the fence, I say the whole college jump the fence"
The wonder that is Angelcountry
"If we're going to have a police state, at least orgainise it properly!"
Guy Outside the Chilcott Enquiry as he was led away by police for causing a 'disturbance' (thanks to LA I now know his name is Michael Culver)
El Diablo Tejano
It has nothing to do with race. It has to do with Obama being an anti-gun Marxist that's proposed a 500% tax on ammunition and banning some of our most popular rifles and handguns. But, I didn't expect anything less from you. Accuse racism, then simply walk away. It's the lefties' H-Bomb. It's what they use when they have no other argument.Originally Posted by Dr The Evidence
"That's a man.....That's a stand tall, walk straight, put God's share in the collection plate, Man"- Jack Ingram
Banned
What on earth are you talking about?Firstly 30% of the US is "of colour"(for th want of another description)Do they also fear the Black man?
If them racist Americans fear the blackman so much,why did they elect a black man?I guess they like to live in fear!!!!!!!
I just have a question about gun ownership in the USA.
Is it true that you can walk into a shop and buy a gun that day (I know there is a wait for hand guns and stuff)?
The reason I ask is surely it would make sense to have a system whereby you have to apply for a gun license, and in order to do this you need to pass a gun test, like a driving test before you can buy a gun. I don't know if you have such a system in the USA??? For me it seems to make sense, i mean you would not let somebody drive a car without passing a test - why not? Becoz a car (in the wrong hands) is a dangerous weapon, a gun more so I would have thought.
I would also think that Tantal would agree here as well. I know it is a 'constitutional right to bear arms' (although this is debatable) but it is just common sense to make somebody prove they can handle a gun in a responsible manner before being issued with one. To be honest I can see any argument against compulsory gun tests and even compulsory membership of gun clubs where you must store all your guns??
Member
Depends on the state.
Some states, Texas is one, I believe, you can just walk in, pick, and walk out with your gun. Others you have to wait various periods of time, 24 hours in some, 48 in others. Some states have tests, others not.
either do it or don't. But I got places to be
<<If them racist Americans fear the blackman so much,why did they elect a black man?I guess they like to live in fear!!!!!!!
Well I'd imagine the racist ones voted for McCain, or not at all. Fair enough, this is not about race. Its about Obama's proposed changes to gun laws, I just find it hard to beleive that he'll get anywhere with that. In my experience, the pro-gun lobby are usually the most vocal, and will surely shoot down any plans for a 500% tax increase on ammo.
As to whether the surge in gun sales has anything to do with Obama himself, my understanding is that most Americans see guns firstly as protection against an invading force (highly unlikely in this day and age) and secondly to defend themselves against an oppresive government. Do people see Obama's regime has possibly oppresive? If so, that sounds like fear to me.
Democracy is the recurrent suspicion that more than half of the people are right more than half of the time.
E. B. White
"To be honest, you think a/c jump the fence, I say the whole college jump the fence"
The wonder that is Angelcountry
"If we're going to have a police state, at least orgainise it properly!"
Guy Outside the Chilcott Enquiry as he was led away by police for causing a 'disturbance' (thanks to LA I now know his name is Michael Culver)
Banned
It is not fear of Black men(why do insecure and unsuccessfull people always blame it on race,white or black)it is a recognition that under a liberal government there will be attempts to disarm the poulation,the deeper the fight in political circles the higher the prices will go,primarily raised by the Gun/ammo shop the owner of which will try to make as big a profit as possible before his livelihood is stolen from him by selfish polititians(not all about killing dem nigras at all now is it)!!!!!!<<If them racist Americans fear the blackman so much,why did they elect a black man?I guess they like to live in fear!!!!!!!
Well I'd imagine the racist ones voted for McCain, or not at all. Fair enough, this is not about race. Its about Obama's proposed changes to gun laws, I just find it hard to beleive that he'll get anywhere with that. In my experience, the pro-gun lobby are usually the most vocal, and will surely shoot down any plans for a 500% tax increase on ammo.
As to whether the surge in gun sales has anything to do with Obama himself, my understanding is that most Americans see guns firstly as protection against an invading force (highly unlikely in this day and age) and secondly to defend themselves against an oppresive government. Do people see Obama's regime has possibly oppresive? If so, that sounds like fear to me.
Banned
There are requirements in all states that a F.I.D card is held by a purchaser,a criminal background check is made on all applicants.The next step would be a Licence to carry(for which most states have exams etc).At point of Purchase you go to the shop,pick your weapon,show FID and Licence to carry,the store compiles all your info(as per the above documents)and sends it to local law enforcement officials.At this point the purchaser is told to return in 5 days to get aprooval to purchase.Law Officials do an extended check on the individual looking at things like,has he recently changed address,seperated from his spouse/common law partner,lost /changed job ,any of the above will require that the law enforcment individual take action befor approoving the purchase.He may even insist that the purchaser be interviewed or take lessons in gun safety.
The Gun club idea works well exept in reality!The USA is different than the UK,a hike in the hills in the UK could be a little risky if the hiker is thick or inexperienced.A hike in the USA for and experienced hiker could be turn deadly.Bears for instance have recently been more inclined to attack humans than in the past.So when i go hiking i carry bear spray with me(in the states that allow it)My wife takes a semi automatic self loading rifle,for protection.If she was forced to keep it in a club she would have to get chomped and clawed by a bear mmmmmmmmNah thanks stick the club idea,it would kill people!!!!!!!Not forgetting of course to defend ones home a gun is handy however if it is in a gunclub and ronnie the rapist comes around do you think he would agree to wait until i got back from the gun club with my wifes gun so she can defend herself?No he would shoot me!!!!!!!Ban Guns and he would still have his,9 out of 10 criminals prefer an unarmed victim(the 10th is either suicidal or wants to go to jail,a lot do that come winter,saves on heating bills).
Banned
Five days in all states,all states require a FID card the rules for obtaining an FID card are standardised throuout the US.Local licence to carry rules vary state by state.Some states allow guns to be carried in shoulder holsters out of sight,others insist that they are in sight!!!!!!!!
El Diablo Tejano
Incorrect, sir. In Texas, you walk into a gun store, complete an ATF Form 4473, and show your driver's license. The dealer then calls NICS (National Instant Check System) and gives them your information and informs them as to whether you're purchasing a handgun or a long gun. NICS then gives the dealer an approval number, a delay notice, or a denial number. If approved, you pay and leave the store with your new firearm. There is no waiting period. Waiting periods are set by STATE LAW, not Federal Law. SOme states have waiting periods, some do not.
"That's a man.....That's a stand tall, walk straight, put God's share in the collection plate, Man"- Jack Ingram
Banned
Thanks for that Tantal,i had believed that whilst it was state law it was kind of a demand from the Feds with a finincial incentive attached(kind of like Drinking age laws not being federal just that states not following fed recomednation get no federal highway funding?However it is not as our freinds across the pond think gangsters and criminals going into gun shops and buying all kinds of artillary to make their life of crime easier.Just honest law abiding folks who wish to be safe from crime,wild animals and foreign invasion!!!!Which evryone says is not likely although i have seen footage of hundreds of invaders storming across US borders,even overpowering Border controll agents(kind of a violent invasion),i am sure in Texas you would see more evidence of this than we do here in Boston!!!!!
Senior MP
In the week since Obama has been elected, the prices of some guns, magazines, and ammunition has almost DOUBLED........and people are still paying it. I've tried for a week to get in touch with one of my favorite distributors but their phones have been busy since Nov. 5th. The most popular items? AK-47s of any variety, AR-15s and AR-15 stripped lower receivers, AK magazines, AR magazines, and 5.56x45 and 7.62x39 ammo. High-capacity pistols are selling lot hotcakes as well. A friend of mine owns a gun store that looks like it's been looted. He's placed large orders with distributors, but the guns are just trickling in. Once it's on the sales floor, it's gone within hours, sometimes minutes. He tried to place an order for AR-15s with Bushmaster, but found out that not only are they completely out of stock, but they're not even taking backorders anymore either. They were doing backorders, but then realized that they are behind by 56,000 rifles!
Then there's talk of a new stimulus package. Little does the government know that much of the stimulus will be spent on guns.
The way I see it, Obama has done more for the firearm industry than even the most costly and aggressive marketing campaign could've ever done. I find it humorous that the most anti-gun candidate to ever come down the pike is causing guns to literally fly out of the stores. Oh, the irony....it burns!
I dont know how they hell you're in front of a judge in a murder charge and you're intimidating the plaintiffs, well maybe hand of God can help you with that judge.
Another fundamental questions is that, how do they learn how to shoot people in their framing ?
I dont think Obama will allow that in his administration, and i dont think he will allow his administrations to allow police to enter peoples houses indiscriminatly and search for guns that they can not find for many years, well some of our laws is just made as a nazist law to target some groups of people in a society dermot, come on baby.
Cloud Nine.
El Diablo Tejano
To answer your questions:
#1- It varies by state. In Texas, the purchase of a firearm can take as little as 10 minutes. That's why it's called the National INSTANT Check System. A right delayed is a right denied.
#2- No, you don't have to pass a test to OWN a gun; however, if you wish to obtain a Concealed Carry license to CARRY a handgun, you must complete the training, pass both written and practical shooting tests, submit an application (with fingerprints and fee) to the Texas Department of Public Safety, and pass an extensive background check. It's no different than a car really. You need a license to DRIVE a car, not to OWN one. Further, the fact that violent crime has DECREASED in every state that has passed Concealed Carry laws should tell you that your fear of an armed society is unfounded. I'm a policeman. You'd think that I would like to be the only person armed in society, but, being a student of human nature, I see the valuable public safety benefits of an armed populace.
#3- No, it's not really debatable. Sure, people have tried to debate it, but "the right of the people to keep and bear arms SHALL NOT be infringed" seems fairly straight-forward to me. As for being required to store guns at "gun clubs", we have to go back to the framers' original intent. Regardless of how some try to frame the argument, our 2nd Amendment has ABSOLUTELY NOTHING to do with "sport". Hunting and competition shooting are simply byproducts of our 2nd Amendment rights. The purposes of the Amendment are to protect the nation from outside invasion, to make the overthrow of a tyrannical government possible, and defense against common criminals (in that order).
"That's a man.....That's a stand tall, walk straight, put God's share in the collection plate, Man"- Jack Ingram
Thanks for the info.
Am very pleased that you need training b4 u can carry a gun in the street. That seems very sensible. I do see the point about Gun clubs from both you and Pauli. Although in the UK farmers would keep guns at home but under regulations 0 they had to be inspected by police at random times and kept in a locked cabinet. This sounds sensible to me.
With regard to the constitution I still don't feel that the right to form organized militia = right to own as many guns as you like. However these things are decided as much by precedent of interpretation as what the actual words say so I concede the point.
Senior MP
As far as I know Obama mentioned the banning of military weapons [rifles] that can be fired as single shot or in full automatic mode. As I mentioned in a post on another thread such a weapon is more deadly than a single shot bolt action target or hunting rifle in the hands of any one deranged enough to use it in the pursuit of multible murder as it can be transformed from a standard rifle into a semi auto firing gun.Marxist Nutter;52144]Thanks for the info.
Am very pleased that you need training b4 u can carry a gun in the street. That seems very sensible. I do see the point about Gun clubs from both you and Pauli. Although in the UK farmers would keep guns at home but under regulations 0 they had to be inspected by police at random times and kept in a locked cabinet. This sounds sensible to me.
With regard to the constitution I still don't feel that the right to form organized militia = right to own as many guns as you like. However these things are decided as much by precedent of interpretation as what the actual words say so I concede the point
A weapon like this aimed into a crowd with one squeeze of the trigger would cause multible deaths and casualties in seconds where as a single shot bolt action would not. I think this is the reasoning that would be any behind suggested ban. It would not stop someone going berserk but it would factor out the worst senario.
Also these deadly weapons are stored in the home some probably in secure cabinets but I'm sure there are many that are not.
The more that are in circulation the greater probabilty of some of them being used in mass killings by disturbed individuals, and in spite of restrictions I'll bet there are plenty in circulation.
Only military weapons of the nature described could be owned by individuals but remain in a club's armory to be used within the clubs domain when the member visits,. and returned to the armory after use.
This would not affect general gun ownership other than military models.
Advocates of capitalism believe : "The fortunate must not be restrained in the exercise of tyranny over the unfortunate"
I would hate to live in a country where I felt I needed a gun like that for my protection!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
Senior MP
Thats the point MN, these military weapons are not used for protection they're trophy guns that give the owner a macho feel and the novelty of being able to fire in semi auto mode and to display them to other enthusiasts.I would hate to live in a country where I felt I needed a gun like that for my protection!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
Most weapons used for "protection" are revolvers and pistols which are much smaller and easier to aim and operate.
Banning this type of military weapon would not affect any shooting enthuiasts ability to take part in accepted shooting competitions.
Advocates of capitalism believe : "The fortunate must not be restrained in the exercise of tyranny over the unfortunate"
Sounds like 'willy whacking' to me
I've got the biggest gun...no I've got the biggest gun...well mine has more power....ooo errr look at the size of these rounds!!
El Diablo Tejano
See my above post. The 2nd Amendment to the U.S. Constitution has ABSOLUTELY NOTHING to do with "sport", including hunting or competitive shooting. As unpalatable as you may find it, the Amendment is there for the sole purpose of killing invaders, tyrants, or criminals. Any attempt to confiscate these guns from otherwise law-abiding American citizens would be met with an extreme amount of force. Let's hope the new Messiah decides not to expend any political capital on the issue.
"That's a man.....That's a stand tall, walk straight, put God's share in the collection plate, Man"- Jack Ingram
Banned
Do remember to totally ignore valid reasons other than the constitution(which is reason enough)for ownership of these and even faster repeating weapons(bears on hikes as the example i already gave,not forgetting an angry Elk(lethel)a male moose(again well able to kill but hard to kill)!!!!!!In seconds i give you these needs for ownership of such weapons,but as always in the manner of all socialists you have to ignore reason and only argue policy,yours being the best policy of course(lots of commies have said so,therefore it must be true)!!!!!!
Banned
You need it in the UK more than anywhere!!!!!In the US we dont need em because the crooks know we are armed!In the UK they know you are not armed,which criminal feels safest in his chosen career,the UK crim who practises his murderous violence and rape with impunity or the American crim who gets killed on his first attempt(unless he lives in a gun controll state and the victim is denied the right to self defence(MA and NY for example)as i have pointed out before,crims are happier in the UK as they are the most protected species,human beings however have no rights or protections from the crim!!!!!!!Re arm,demand the right to rearm,and the next time some little scummer spits at you in the st shoot the little savage scumbag,blow out his brains,see how fast his mates will be to commit such violent behaviour in future!!!!!!!!!!!!!Here lies the greatness of the nright to bear arms!!!!!Give me one benefit of criminalising guns,any of you totalitarianists,1 ggod reason for banning the ownership of any firearms,just 1 good reason!!!!!!!!!!!!!!I would hate to live in a country where I felt I needed a gun like that for my protection!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
NationMaster - Murders with firearms (most recent) by country
Crime Statistics > Murders with firearms (most recent) by country
VIEW DATA: Totals
#1 South Africa:31,918
#2 Colombia:21,898
#3 Thailand:20,032
#4 United States:9,369
#5 Philippines:7,708
#6 Mexico:2,606
#7 Slovakia:2,356
#8 El Salvador:1,441
#9 Zimbabwe:598
#10 Peru:442
#11 Germany:269
#12 Czech Republic:181
#13 Ukraine:173
#14 Canada:144
#15 Albania:135
#16 Costa Rica:131
#17 Azerbaijan:120
#18 Poland:111
#19 Uruguay:109
#20 Spain:97
#21 Portugal:90
#22 Croatia:76
#23 Switzerland:68
#24 Bulgaria:63
#25 Australia:59
#26 Sweden:58
#27 Bolivia:52
#28 Japan:47
#29 Slovenia:39
#30 Hungary:38
#31 Belarus:38
#32 Latvia:28
#33 Burma:27
#34 Macedonia, The Former Yugoslav Republic of:26
#35 Austria:25
#36 Estonia:21
#37 Moldova:20
#38 Lithuania:16
#39 United Kingdom:14
#40 Denmark:14
Personally I feel this table reflects a good arguement why having gun restrictions benefits the UK.
Senior MP
MN absolutely, I didn't want to describe it in that fashion for fear of total retribution from the gun club, but you've got it in one. I think it's the cowboy syndrome a bit like Regan when he was making those tatty B movies and and the terminator films where the goody with the biggest gun comes out on top.Marxist Nutter;52185]Sounds like 'willy whacking' to me
I've got the biggest gun...no I've got the biggest gun...well mine has more power....ooo errr look at the size of these rounds!!
Hollywood never seems to tire pumping out this rubbish year after year so this must have some effect on the American psyche.
Advocates of capitalism believe : "The fortunate must not be restrained in the exercise of tyranny over the unfortunate"
Member
I am therefore owed an apology.
Banned
That's really bad. Obama is already starting to get a bad reputation.
Banned
You are?For what?your completely and lack of understanding of the american political system?Demandin apologies where do you get off,yeah starting to sound like a Military police man now!Remember what the Infantry called MPs,that is what you are!!!!!!!!!!!
Member
HERE;
To which YOU answered;
Whereby I was proved correct and YOU as usual WRONG by;Five days in all states,all states require a FID card the rules for obtaining an FID card are standardised throuout the US.Local licence to carry rules vary state by state.Some states allow guns to be carried in shoulder holsters out of sight,others insist that they are in sight!!!!!!!!
Tantal
AndIncorrect, sir. In Texas, you walk into a gun store, complete an ATF Form 4473, and show your driver's license. The dealer then calls NICS (National Instant Check System) and gives them your information and informs them as to whether you're purchasing a handgun or a long gun. NICS then gives the dealer an approval number, a delay notice, or a denial number. If approved, you pay and leave the store with your new firearm. There is no waiting period. Waiting periods are set by STATE LAW, not Federal Law. SOme states have waiting periods, some do not.
YOU own me an apology for saying I was wrong when I was NOT.To answer your questions:
#1- It varies by state. In Texas, the purchase of a firearm can take as little as 10 minutes. That's why it's called the National INSTANT Check System. A right delayed is a right denied.
Banned
Ok Apology!!!!Here goes,Tacitus(former redcap that you are)take a deep breath........and hold it.........keep holding it until i apologise!!!!!!!!
Banned
#1 south Africa,a gun controll nation!!!!!!! Thank you for prooving my point!!!!!!!!
#4 USA i just looked at other evidence stating otherwise,there have actually been around 3 to 4000 murders in the US however reporting of murder in the US by Biased agencies(gun controll bigots)include in their tally suicides involving firearms and accidents involving firarms.Of the other murders i can guarentee that very few,if any were comitted by legal guns!!!!!!!!!!!!!!All of the uk murders were committed by illegal guns,see my point,if the right to bear arms in the UK were reinstituted how many of those victims would have been able to legally defend themselves against the CRIM?
Unfortunatly for Human Beings in NULABLAND the CRIM is a protected species,kill the Human but protect the crim who killed him!!!!!!!!!!
Gun control, as we understand it is a relatively recent attempt by the South African government to nullify an extremely unstable and violent nation, made worse by gun ownership. I fail to see how this either proves, or supports your arguments. Its estimated that 4MN illegal guns are still in circulation in S. Africa, and gun ownership is still legal, although heavily regulated and restrictions are in place. The point is Pauli, any nation that allows legal gun ownership has a higher per capita rate of gun-related homicide and gun-related crime in general.
Im certain that the statistics I produced from NationMaster only relate to homicide by fire-arms, I would therefore conclude, they do not incorporate suicide or accidental death by fire-arms. The percentage of suicide in the US by fire-arms is thought to stand at around 55-60pc, this would take the total far past the 9369 as listed. I reserve the right to alter this opinion should you see fit to produce the source of the contrary evidence for examination.
You may well be right that most homicides were committed by illegal fire-arms (but not all, this is the fundamental issue and my main point of antagonism) and you are probably right that all UK gun-related murders were carried out by illegally owned fire-arms, such are the laws that prohibit possession. The main point of contention though Pauli is the disparity between, US and UK totals. Even adjusting for the increased population of the US, the chances of being murdered, in a gun-related incident is still proportionately higher in the US than here in the UK.
The criminal vs victim rights is really a seperate debate, I would tend to agree with you in your assertion though, although I do not agree that arming the nation is the way to combat this issue.
Junior Member
The part I bolded is incorrect. What you described is an "assault rifle". Those weapons are already strictly regulated in the US:
1. There are approximately 180,000 available to the public. And this number is fixed as it's illegal for a citizen to purchase any fully automatic weapon built after 1986.
2. They are incredibly expensive, most starting at $3,000 (for a well used full auto Uzi) and going as high as $20,000 (for a good condition full auto MP5 or M16).
3. In order to purchase one, you must first submit to a 3-4 month background check conducted by the Bureau of Alcohol, Tobacco, and Firearms, be finger printed, receive the written permission of your local chief law enforcement officers, and pay a $200 tax.
4. You are correct about those weapons being stored securely. Considering the price of those weapons and the fact you can go to prison for up to 10 years if you lose the weapon, the owners keep a very close eye on them.
5. With the cost in mind, they are rarely if ever used to protect ones home. They are mostly collectors items taken to gun ranges once a year for events called "full auto shoots" where they charge people a price to fire so many rounds of ammo through the gun.
Barack doesn't plan to ban actual military weapons. As the above pretty much makes them "banned" for anyone except the extremely wealthy or patient firearms enthusiast. Even buying a suppressor (sound moderator) requires the above process described in point #3.
What Obama has talked about banning are "assault weapons", a subjective term that was created to be applied to many types of weapons: rifles with pistol grips or thumbhole stocks, any weapon .50 caliber or higher (including slug guns and muzzle loaders), any gun capable of holding more than 10 round of ammunition (including lever action rifles), pump action shotguns, and even certain models of handguns.
The term "assault weapon" was created as nothing more than a political scare tactic that is constantly redefined to include any gun the politician in question wants to ban. And that is why you are seeing a rush on guns, magazines, and ammunition. Because many people know that some of the most common weapons available can be described as an "assault weapon" at the whim of whoever authors the legislation.
And an "assault weapon ban" would most definitely affect those who participate in shooting sports. The most popular center fire rifles in the US are those built on the AR-15/10 platform:
AR-15 - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia
They are legally used by millions of people for everything from casual target shooting to competitive shooting. But as Tantal said, the Second Amendment isn't about sport shooting or hunting. It is about defending self, home, neighborhood, state, and nation. And many "assault weapons" are perfect for that.
I know that if I were protecting my home or business from a rioters, russians falling out of the sky, or zombies, i'd rather have my AR-15 and 100rd magazine than even the most accurate bolt action rifle or break action shot gun.
El Diablo Tejano
Trying to educate some of these people on firearm issues is like trying to herd cats. They can't comprehend the historical relevance and current need for the 2nd Amendment. Further, they lack understanding of the firearms themselves. They buy into the media hype and politically manufactured definitions that have been built into the gun debate.
The only reasonable person you'll find here on gun issues is Pauli. He's a British ex-pat living in the U.S. Although he personally doesn't much care for guns and doesn't own any, he's perfectly content to leave mine alone, which is really all that I ask. He's really "pro-choice" on gun issues. Other than that, this forum is mostly British and most of them have never handled a gun, will never handle a gun, and have been raised with a bias against them since birth........and, although they can't come out and say it, I'm sure that there are a few on here that see gun owners as a major obstacle to achieving their socialist utopia of "from each according to his ability, to each according to his need." They view government as the answer to all problems and feel that all property essentially belongs to "the collective". They view gun owners as a legitimate challenge to a tyrannical, confiscatory government that must be disarmed.
"That's a man.....That's a stand tall, walk straight, put God's share in the collection plate, Man"- Jack Ingram
Banned
However it does not change the fact that Gun Crime is committed by Criminals,therefore cannot be committed by lawfull gun owners!!!!Guns do not kill!!!!!People kill!!!
The Blairite decision to ban guns as a way to prevent gun crime is in my mind equal to banning ownership of a Penis in order to prevent Rape!!!!
Junior Member
Oh. I know. I've spoken with many people from other countries and many of them think you can just walk into a Wal-Mart with cash and walk out with a machine gun. I try to correct that every time I see it. Will it help much? Probably not. But at least they can't use ignorance as an excuse for not knowing better. They'll only have their bias to blame.
As for disarming people and confiscating weapons, even the most died in wool gun grabber know that's an impossibility in the US. At best, they might get 100k people to turn in their broken guns in exchange for cash. At worst, it would result in a weekly Ruby Ridge.
And that's really the only hope for gun owners in the US. Guns have permeated so deep into our culture, they've become more than tools, but symbols of freedom itself. And nothing makes people fight harder than an attack on their freedom. The gun grabbers will have to decide if achieving their socialist utopia is worth a long, deadly fight.
Banned
The refusal to believ that it is not that easy is based on nationalised government controlled media such as Pravda,BBC and other socialist papers spouting anti american hatred on a daily basis!!Look at some of the comments posted by the rampant violent lefties on this forum regarding Gun controll americans being fat,how 911 was a great idea,how islamo terrorism should do more!!!!The more i look the more i think that the EU is in fact a front for Al quaida!!!!!!!!!!!!!
This really is a misrepresentation Pauli.
Firstly, as far as I am aware, and certainly from their posting history, I do not agree we have "violent rampant lefties" on this forum. In fact (and it isn't exclusive) many of the Left leaning members of this forum add intellectual depth to range of topics. I do not always agree with their views (in fact rarely do I agree with their views) but in terms of contribution, they should be considered assets, rather than vilified as a negative influence.
I also feel you are completely misrepresenting the general view taken by members of this forum in regards 9/11 specifically and Islamic Terrorism generally. Produce one post that asserts 9/11 was "a good thing"; Produce one post that claims "Islamic Terrorists should do more". If you drew this conclusion from the fact many have said they weren't surprised that 9/11 occurred; or that Islamic Terrorism is the by-product of American/British interference in Islamic nations, then that shows how 'our' media reporting is better representative of world opinion than maybe that in the United States, which is generally considered fairly insular. Therefore, concluding that as a by-product of the media reporting in the US, Americans are out of touch with the reality of world events, and the reasons for the negative image of the US. This is further compounded by their [US citizens] blind defence of the USA and creates negative images of the people themselves and the values they stand for.
Anti-Americanism is a debated subject, with no clear definition. Pro-US supporters often claim this when justifiable criticism is levelled against US policy, claiming the American people, values or such are being questioned. It is therefore, nothing short of propagandist, and is used as a mechanism to restrict or completely suppress opinion. Equating criticism of US policy (Domestic and Foreign) with support for Al Quaida or Islamic Terrorism; and attempting to show 9/11 was supported by Europeans is very poor form and again bring me to accuse you of creating Straw-man arguments to support your position. Yet, the irony is this, both you and the Pro-US crowd seem completely at ease, expounding extremely negative British/European sentiments, surely you can see the hypocrisy in this???
Banned
I have never shown a single negative sentiment about the nation i put my health and wellbeing on the line for,i have however critisised the NULAB eu controlled government of being opressive and undermining the freedoms of the British people for the last eleven years!!!The EU is a different matter,i believe that this organisation that has been compared with the USSR,is a dangerous anti british entity,its primary desire was to bankrupr the UK(hence its dissallowing the UK membership for so many years)now it is trying a different tactic,the euro,wether we join or not we still pay to shore it up.The USA is hated for many reasons,i love the latest USA haters accusing USA of creating the current minor economic downturn!!!!!!None of them ever complained about that nasty wall st keeping their economies strong all those years sisnce the last recession!!!!!!!If you dont want the US economy to affect your own,dont buy into it,the BNP have an excellent plan for a singlr nation/self benefitting economic structure!!!!!!However Globalisation(originally considered a Leftist idea)is a fact of modern life ,we all bought into it,we are all responsible!!!!Exept on the Subprime issue,we know exactly who to blame for that,dont we!!!!!William Jefferson Clinton and his passing laws to make it difficult for banks to refuse Mortgages to cirtain people(the same people who today mostly make up those who have defaulted on their mortgages and have been forclosed on)!!!!!!!!!!!!The US prior to 911 didnt interfere in any islamic nation,it did purchase oil from a few and have a relationship with a few!!!Al quaida wishes to force all to become sunni moslems or die,it is about power,nothing more,just look at how they and the taliban treated non sunni moslems in Afghanistan!!!!I saw a few dead bairns when i was there,i saw cut throats and gouged out eyes of infants and adults alike,i know the Al quaida way and nothing they do has any justification they are haters and murderers,nothing more!!!!
Another post of misrepresented, misunderstood and mistaken views. I will start with Anti-Americanism; your view is that the US is beyond reproach. Any criticism is knocked back as unjustified, regardless of its merit. You miss the point - The US is not the perfect, utopian land of freedom you often claim it to be, so you have done ok out there - well done. What about the Millions, yes Millions that haven't faired so well? Are they lazy - Maybe? I tend to look at a Country not by its best aspects but by its worst; and I am sorry to say but there is much to criticise. You will not agree and I will therefore, not continue.
Did the worlds economic crisis originate in the US - well yes to an extent it did, and I feel you show your ignorance to the severity of the current financial situation - Minor economic downturn - GET REAL PAULI. Banks are failing, Business's are failing, countries are IN recession and Unemployment is rising - IN ALL COUNTRIES - INCLUDING AMERICA. Yes this was in part created by exposure to US Subprime mortgage lending - the mortgages being bundled and sold to EUROPEAN and ASIAN banks. I agree that Britain was ill prepared for the bubble to burst, and we are possibly suffering more than most as we were exposed more than most. Your idiotic (and I know you will now claim I have resorted to insults - I call it as I see it) claim that this is a minor downturn is simply wrong, I don't know whether this is provocation or just a lack of understanding but either way it doesn't alter my view.
I disagree that you have never criticised the UK, I care little about you putting your life on the line as justification, you have an axe to grind and the fact that you migrated shows that you pretty much cut your ties with this country and its institutions. We share views on New Labour, except I can manage a post without reducing myself to little more than an unconstructed rant - something I feel you can not. There is no doubt that 'freedom' is restricted by the Gvnt using Anti-Terrorism laws created for public protection (anybody recall - THE PATRIOT ACT) but you so often miss the point; A prime example is your belief that Socialism advocated Globalisation in the form its taken - Capitalism!! YES THAT IS WHAT SOCIALISM ADVOCATE ISN'T IT PAULI???
I don't like the EU either, why do I not get insulted and abused (the way you claim you do) when I debate the merits (or not) of the EU and EURO, because I can construct a debate. Even if my opponent doesn't agree with me, I do not purposely antagonise them with a rant of misinformation and misrepresent their views to gain an advantage.
OH and what a ridiculous statement that the US had no involvment in ANY Islamic nation prior to 9/11. The US had troops stationed in S.Arabia, have been funding Israel for 40+ yrs, are constantly threatening IRAN and had a mandate to remove Saddams regime in IRAQ (prior - 1998). Get your facts straight.
Also, I think the BNP policy would be incredibly damaging to this country. (I believe you now support them, but will no doubt be outraged by this false and misrepresented assertion - and we all know why - Married a black women, have mixed race kids, no need to remind us all AGAIN!!)
Isolationism, particularly given the economic climate, is just stupid.
Banned
I will work through this very angry post of yours
Firstly the USA is not above reproach,but not all americans are fat racist president assainating rednecks either,as some on this forum have claimed.
Poverty in the USA is a choice,i know Barry will soon change this and (with Hillbilly on side ) we will soon have taxation at insane rates as high as 15 or 20% possibly even eventually reaching the 65% UK level!!!!In order to fund lazyness subsidies(whilst people like me work themselves into an early grave for less than the lazy bums on welfare get),i will be dead before i am 50 due to the arduous and dangerous and poisenous nature of my work,2 freinds of mine died this year from brain and lung cancer(they both had both)this is the result of the job we do,it will be me and many others also,last year my cousin died from pulmonary disease caused by silica dust,he was 41,why should we who work hard to provide our kids with a better life die young and see the fruits of our labour go to support the lazy who refuse to work?
The US has troops in saudi,but is this interference in islamic countries affairs when they are welcomed by that country???
Israel is not an islamic country and aid to Israel is matched equally aid to both egypt and Jordan.The US dosent supply arms to Israel either(just dispelling another Myth)the US have never manufactured the UZI,the Galil rifle nor the Galilin carbine,these are the Individual weapons of the Israeli Defence force,all Israeli made(a weird and ancient jewish law regulates which weapons a Jew may use in defence of the promised land,some interpret that to meen only jews can make the weapons others that only jews can make the weapons used directly against the enemy ie in modern interpretation small arms(direct fire weapons)must be made by Jews,i am not sure how this relates to armour and artilliary etc(indirect fire),but i do know that the US aids israel,but balences that aid with aid to Egypt and Jordan(personally i think no aid should be given to any of them)!However the US NEVER put troops on the ground(ie Interfered )in those nations against the will of that nation(ie invaded or created a colony by force ie Interfered).But if the existence of US soldiers on saudi territory is against the will of the saudis,why do they not ask them to leave???????It really is that simple.However we forget that the leader of al Quaida is a saudi who was thrown out of his homeland because he was a scumbag,he hated americans before that(somthing to do with an American girl laughing at his little weiner at a booze and drug party in beiruit,old ozzie bin liner was a party animal before the coke fried his brain and he became a radical islamic murderer,hating Americans because he had a (mere)woman laugh at his miniscule manhood,so hence we see why he committed his acts of terror(oh actually he didnt,he is a coward skulking in a cave whilst sending others to their deaths for his advancement!!!!!!
The Patriot act has no effect on the lives of the average US citizen,it secures borders and little more,most of it is simply allowing security at airports for domestic flights to be brought in line with standards in effect in International airports and International flights,how is that so bad?I now walk through a Metal detector when i fly to Portland or to walla walla or san francisco,yup really bad!!!!!!!I dont however have cameras watching me ,am not forced to give DNA samples when i report a crime(give or we dont investigate,which is a plan that NULAB have bandied around)if i am arrested in the USA and Biometric info /evidence is taken,it will be returned to me and expunged from records if i am found not guilty.
The USA threaten Iran?whilst the Iranians are offering the USA candy and telling the Israelis oy give us a call if you want us to help paint your porch next weekend,we will bring over the family,have a barbeque,crack a few cans yeah!!!!Shall i have the wife make potato salad?????Yup but in the real world.I dont know a damn thing about the US planning anything to do with saddam Prior to 1998 i do recall saddam invading Kuwait in 91 though,i remember it well!!!!!!I guess we shouldnt have interfered in Kuwaiti buisness!!!!!!As you have shown no link i will assume this to be well you know what it is,you told me repeatedly as did MN that it was evidence of Insanity to post an allegation without a link,Paranoid delusion i believe the term was!
Now take away the Racism and the BNPs policies are perfect,exactly what this country needs to remain Great(i suppose this is anti British),a little pride and self respect is no harm,national pride is a good thing(unless it is Brits with national pride according to NUlab,Black power is cool and Right on Brother!!!!What is white pride called?Not that i agree with either statement i go with the old race isnt a factor policy howevermuch Polititians of the LIBLACON or the BNP wish to make it a HUGE factor(meanwhile stripping us of our civil rights daily,all of us irrispective of race,but race is working as a divisive factor,people see denial of rights only from their own point of view ask an asian about it,or a black or a white,they all feel that the other is favoured,a ploy of the government)!!!!
I have a long time ago figured out how little you car for those who serve this country,and make huge sacrifices for it,thank you now for actually stating it so candidly"i care little about you putting your life on the line"!!!Can i send that to my mate Karl Flowitt currently serving in Kabul? He will not be at all surprised how others view his service,he also wont care.You see Squaddies are not arrogant as civvies always complain,we ARE genuinely better than you!!!!!
Wow you have almost out-done yourself Pauli.
I'll start in reverse I think. I said I didn't care that you put you life on the line in the context of this debate. I thought you may attempt to twist and manipulate that particular comment - I left it in to see just how bloody predictable you are.. I was correct. I have nothing but respect for those men and women serving in our armed force with humility and dedication. This does not allow them to use this respect as an excuse for ignorance, nor as justification as a defence when clear anti-Britishness is prevelent . You seem to feel that because you serve for Queen and Country you are exempt from being accused of Anti-Britishness. I'm sorry it doesn'twork that way and I feel, seeing as I am just one of many that have accused you of anti-Britishness, I am probably in the right. A rather arrogant attitude their Pauli - 'genuinely better than you' isn't that a direct contradiction with the comment immediately beforehand? Come on Pauli keep up and stay consistant with your own vitriol.
Racism is a political tool, I grant you that but, it CAN never be anything other than divisive - so its rather pointless pointing out the obvious. As I have no idea why you have decided to bring racism up (as you always do - yet another straw-man) my comments about race were in context with your usual defence against allegations that you support the BNP).
I am afraid I am quite lost reading most of the rest of your drival. The Patriot Act extends beyond the measures you claim as well you know. The simple fact is, the US Gvnt can now intercept, communications - this allows for potential mis-use. Have any Gvnt agencies abused the Patriot Act - My guess would be YES and I am surprised that given your hatred of Gvnt you have a lot of trust in Bush et al. Mind you probably have to be wary - they may intercept any negative dissent and send you packing back to Britain.
I have previously produced the information that changes in policy were introduced IN 1998 making it US POLICY TO REMOVE SADDAM FROM POWER. This is well known and I could produce it if you really, really want me to. I never said the US and Britain should not have protected Kuwait in 91 from the Iraqi invasion..did I ??
Yes, the US is hostile to Iran (maybe with good reason) and I am sorry but the continued support for Israel (which I never asserted was an Islamic country) and that Countries treatment of the Palestinians is a reason why world opinion of the US and her foreign policy is so low.
Not sure what the BBQ business has to do with anything, maybe it is a Pauli tactic to try and confuse me into submission.
Poverty is not always a choice; either in the slums of India or the US. You show complete contempt for those unable to work. So your going to die early, how many times do we all need to hear that Pauli. You have claimed (I mean mentioned) that you are a millionaire, well you HAD a CHOICE and decided to chase the money. You must have a deathwish - first the Army and now the dangerous line of work you are in. Is it my fault - NO!! You knew the risks and even if your reasons are honourable, i.e providing for you kids - YOU CHOOSE THAT CAREER. So stop using that as something I should feel bad about.
I am bored now that will do for now!!
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