This is a discussion on Are We Free Yet? within the United States Politics Forum forums, part of the United States category; Are We Free Yet or Are Our Choices Sins? Post 2008 Election President Elect Obama is not yet inaugurated and ...
Banned
Are We Free Yet or Are Our Choices Sins?
Post 2008 Election
President Elect Obama is not yet inaugurated and the Religious Right is going after him with vengeance. I received two Petitions to have him impeached. The Religious Right wanted another Bush (Senator McCain) and his Christian side kick (Governor Palin) as a guarantee that the Prohibitions of Abortions, Gay Marriages and Death with Dignity would be the law. The American voters said “thanks, but no thanks anyway!”.
The wars, terrorism, economy melt-down were never the focus of the many Christian Groups whose only concerns were a one world power based on Jesus Christ. Even as a child I understood that Christians wanted this but were stopped cold by the First Amendment.
Amendment I
Congress shall make no law respecting an establishment of
Religion or prohibiting the free exercise thereof;…
Americans have the freedom to build and fill any number of Churches they wish. But do they have the freedom to use the power of their Congregations to elect local and federal Representatives? They are given a tax status that covers not claiming their receiving donations, as income. Turning their Sanctuaries into political meeting places breaks the First Amendment.
Since 2000 when President Bush began to hand out Faith Based Grants, the Churches have used this to sponsor political programs based on their own candidates. Pastor Rick Warren even had programs interviewing Senators Obama and McCain firing off questions about their Christian roots.
The Religious Right has since taken on bringing their groups together to elect one man/woman over another. The hidden agenda on this can be found all over the internet. I keep hearing them talk about “Conservative Values” and this is simply a force to federally ban Abortions, Same Sex Marriages and never anyone to determine how, when and where they may be allowed to die.
These are choices open to all American Citizens and visitors. Why are they considered sins in the eyes of Christians? I read nothing about this in the bible. Jesus never addressed these actions and the prohibitions seem to come from a group of angry “Christian Solders, Marching as to War” These intrusive laws can be found in the Vatican but not in the U.S. Constitution.
I took an interest in Christian values at the start of WW2, and began looking for Christians in my home and neighborhood. I saw little of value that made anyone superior or even recognizing others as equal. I attended a girl’s boarding school and met girls from all over the world who had many Gods other than Jesus Christ. It was when I got into working that my search extended out to my coworkers. I saw no Christian values anywhere. I saw cut-throat actions of the work force keeping the organization charts and who they would go after next. Is that Christian? Apparently it was and still is.
Look folks, I’m too old to worry about abortions; I am not gay but I have respect for those who are. So far, I do not have a terminal illness but have seen many die in agony. These freedoms of choice are what make Americans free! I have worked with many organizations trying to keep these choices for all Americans. There are no mandates to force these choices on others but a movement to prohibit them from discussion is now a plan from the Republican Party. Choices are Sins!
Could this be why the GOP lost House and Senate seats as well as the White House?
This is my political party folks, and I want it back without the silly actions from anyone planning Armageddon…….
You're absolutley right, I think. It is a sad reflection of the current GOP that the party of Abraham Lincoln is now full of racists, fundamentalist nutters and hateful social Nazis who want to control how people live. Hopefully the election defeat will drive it back into the centre to make it a viable option for future leadership, but somehow I don't think that it will reform any time soon...
El Diablo Tejano
#1-Depends on what choices you make. Some of them may be sins.Originally Posted by Sandy Price
#2-It may violate their tax-exempt status, but it DOES NOT violate the First Amendment.
#3- The electorate may vote for candidates for any reason they wish. For Christians, one's faith is a measure of their moral character. Personally, I won't vote for an athiest, which is my right.
#4- Yes, he did. Infanticide, homosexual activity, and suicide are all prohibited in the Bible.
"That's a man.....That's a stand tall, walk straight, put God's share in the collection plate, Man"- Jack Ingram
El Diablo Tejano
Your analysis, as usual, is flawed. I think the GOP lost the election because we gave no real alternative to the Dems. Both Obama and McCain favored amnesty for illegal immigrants. McCain claims he didn't, but he only became anti-amnesty once he got the GOP nomination. Both voted for the $700 billion bailout for the banks. Both support the closure of Guantanamo Bay. McCain IS a moderate. The only thing that even made it close was the selection of Palin who drew the conservative "base" back in, otherwise it would've been worse. Hopefully, we can get an actual conservative to run in 2012. My favorite right now is Bobby Jindal, the Governor of Louisiana. He's of Indian descent, so you can go ahead and stow your allegations of racism.
Last edited by Tantal; 21-11-2008 at 03:43 PM.
"That's a man.....That's a stand tall, walk straight, put God's share in the collection plate, Man"- Jack Ingram
True. But abortion isn't.
The right to practice any religion you wish also extends to other people. If you are going to have freedom of religion, you must have freedom to commit suicide and go through with abortion separately from religious extremists who would like to limit your freedom. In my opinion, this is where the GOP's main failing currently is - failing to recognise the freedom of the individual in all aspects, including euthanasia etc.
accidental genius!
Help me out here, where exactly in the Gospels did Christ address these issues?
Last edited by Opinionated; 21-11-2008 at 04:31 PM.
"The object of universities is not to make skilful lawyers, physicians or engineers. It is to make capable and cultivated human beings." John Stewart Mill
El Diablo Tejano
This passage refers to sexual immorality, which had already been established as any sexual activity outside the confines of wedlock. The fact that homosexuality had already been described as "an abomination" in the Old Testament, it's likely that he felt it wasn't necessary to rehash what everyone already knew. From a biblical perspective, homosexuality is equally sinful as cheating on your wife, another practice that I do not engage in.What comes out of you is what defiles you. For from within, out of your hearts, come evil thoughts, sexual immorality, theft, murder, adultery, greed, malice, deceit, lewdness, envy, slander, arrogance and folly. All these evils come from inside and defile you. (TNIV, Mark 7:20-23)
As for the others, based upon other teachings of the Bible, it is apparent that Jesus never corrected what had already been written. He was a pretty sharp guy, so I'm sure that if abortion and suicide had been mistakenly put into the Old Testament, he would've corrected them.
Although I am no Biblical scholar, I am a man of faith. We'll probably just have to agree to disagree on Biblical issues.
"That's a man.....That's a stand tall, walk straight, put God's share in the collection plate, Man"- Jack Ingram
I find it very interesting that somebody that wants the government to 'leave them the hell alone' and think he is capable of living his own life and nobody knows any better not only allows his opinions on contemporary issues but his entire identity be determined by a 2000 year old dead hippy
either do it or don't. But I got places to be
I know you don't need me defending you Tantal, but...well... I agree with some of this. The second point is completely true, and shows a better understanding of the law than the alternative proposed by Sandy. Now number 3, (confession: kind of an athiest myself) I also agree with and would do the same. I wouldn't vote for a fellow atheist either. I don't believe that you can get a true "read" on any politician unless you happen to know them personally, therefore someone being of faith satisfies a bunch of values that I would want in a leader. In short, it tells me enough about them. Also the nihilist in me says that an openly atheist person hasn't a cat's chance in hell (fictional?) of being elected in either mine or your country.
The problem is that people of faith are perfectly within their rights to act like 'they are right and you are wrong' whereas for someone to imply the same thing but the other way round (as MN just did) is somehow more insulting as he's just 'insulted your faith'. Its an imbalance in manners basically. But from someone who calls himself a libertarian, how can you agree with telling people what they can and can't do because some guy said so. To us, that is how it sounds. And that is why church and state should be so so so seperate that they can barely see each other.
And as for that bible verse, well... having heard that one alot growing up I can say it really is a perscription for Catholic guilt.
Democracy is the recurrent suspicion that more than half of the people are right more than half of the time.
E. B. White
"To be honest, you think a/c jump the fence, I say the whole college jump the fence"
The wonder that is Angelcountry
"If we're going to have a police state, at least orgainise it properly!"
Guy Outside the Chilcott Enquiry as he was led away by police for causing a 'disturbance' (thanks to LA I now know his name is Michael Culver)
I don't really understand this. Hippy is not insult in my opinion. The insult is that more that Tantal's free will is not as 'free' as he thinks it is, that's the point.
The problem is that people of faith are perfectly within their rights to act like 'they are right and you are wrong' whereas for someone to imply the same thing but the other way round (as MN just did) is somehow more insulting as he's just 'insulted your faith'. t.
either do it or don't. But I got places to be
What I meant was people of faith take it as an insult when someone questions their faith, or says its not true, and I can see why. But the other way round is somewhow more acceptable. And hippy might not be an insult to you, but people of faith generally find anything belittling Jesus as offensive. But if a Christian guy says to me (and this has happened) 'you are not going to heaven because you have no faith' I don't find that offensive. I found it quite funny actually...but I'm going to hell so, whatever. I 'll see you there
Democracy is the recurrent suspicion that more than half of the people are right more than half of the time.
E. B. White
"To be honest, you think a/c jump the fence, I say the whole college jump the fence"
The wonder that is Angelcountry
"If we're going to have a police state, at least orgainise it properly!"
Guy Outside the Chilcott Enquiry as he was led away by police for causing a 'disturbance' (thanks to LA I now know his name is Michael Culver)
cool you bring the booze and I'll bring the weed and we can spend eternity parting to the devil's music
El Diablo Tejano
Not that interesting at all. I follow the 2000 year old dead hippie by choice, unlike your comrades who forced people to follow Marx and Lenin at gunpoint.I find it very interesting that somebody that wants the government to 'leave them the hell alone' and think he is capable of living his own life and nobody knows any better not only allows his opinions on contemporary issues but his entire identity be determined by a 2000 year old dead hippy
"That's a man.....That's a stand tall, walk straight, put God's share in the collection plate, Man"- Jack Ingram
Many were forced to follow Christianity by force too as many blindly follow Marx out of 'choice' (not that i am one). Notice the quotation marks around the word 'choice' as it clearly isn't your choice. You live in a Christian country and no doubt (I am assuming here) were raised as a Christian thus you follow a 2000 year old dead hippy due to socialization more than choice :p
El Diablo Tejano
Godless heathens.....
"That's a man.....That's a stand tall, walk straight, put God's share in the collection plate, Man"- Jack Ingram
Banned
All the GOP,including George W Bush who has in many senior positions individuals who were well qualified to do their jobs(and were non white)More diverse an administration(racially)than Clintons!
But i digress this post is Nonsense and you show NO evidence to support any of your hate filled accusations,you really are a bigot!!!!!The GOP are a political party of all races(despite socialist propeganda),has a desire to preserve all rights granted by the bill of rights(Free speech,press,firearms etc)!!!!!Social nazis?????????????????Put on your tin foil hat and maybee you will be able to explain that one??????Social.......Socialist.........Nazi,nah sounds like left wing claptrap to me,The nazis were in fact socilaists,GOP are conservatives(although they appear to be more corporate protectionists under BUSH)!!!!There is no racism in the GOP nor is their any Nazi policies(look to Dems,even though i am a Dem,for policies that are simelar to Hitlers) do try to debate in the same reality as the rest of us Old Boy!!!!!!!
El Diablo Tejano
Yes and no. Both of my parents are Christians; however, due to some unfortunate circumstances in my family, we didn't go to church when I was growing up. I was still raised with Christian morality in that I was taught not to steal, assault others, etc., but the decision to become a Christian is one that I made as an adult. My parents have rediscovered their faith and attend church as well.
"That's a man.....That's a stand tall, walk straight, put God's share in the collection plate, Man"- Jack Ingram
El Diablo Tejano
Don't sweat it Pauli. Most lefties will usually play the race card.....usually from the bottom of the deck. Had I been given the chance to vote for Bobby Jindal (Indian), Alan Keyes, J.C. Watts, or Michael Steele (all black) over Hillary Clinton, John Edwards, or Dennis Kucinich (known here as Kook-cinich) I would've gladly done so.
That's the beauty of lefties' accusation of racism, there is really no defense. Even the fact that Bush had the most diverse cabinet ever will be twisted by the lefties as simply a disquise to hide his racism.
"That's a man.....That's a stand tall, walk straight, put God's share in the collection plate, Man"- Jack Ingram
This is NOT choice Tantal. American free market rubbish has really warped this word choice. This choice did not come out of your free will, it came out of you adopting a discourse that has been fed to you all your life. If you were born in a muslim country and had muslim parents you would be a muslim. I have no doubts about that.
Did you choose what country to be born into? No
This word choice has been so devalued by capitalism. As has the ideas of 'free will' and individualism. It does not take much reflection to see that free will only occurs rarely and involves an often quite painful decision from an undecidable terrain (Laclau/Derrida). But now choosing to by pepsi and not coke is 'free will' or 'free choice'. People are so dumb!
Chancellor
I'm afraid I'll have to take issue with you over this remark. As a confirmed atheist myself I've encountered a number of people who wrongly confuse lack of Christian beliefs with either a lack of moral values or a lack of understanding of the importance of social values.
Just because we choose to acknowledge, on the balance of evidence I have to say, that religious beliefs are little more than a many thousand year old manipulation of the human mind by people who seek to profit and control by doing so, has absolutely no bearing whatsoever on what we think about social/moral issues.
I will agree that in the US in particular, an atheist wouldn't stand a cat in hell's chance of being elected, but here in the UK I don't believe the same situation applies. As long as a politician could show that his intent was to try to better everyone, I don't think his religious beliefs, or lack of them, would be a significant factor.
"Of all tyrannies, a tyranny sincerely exercised 'for the good of its victims' may be the most oppressive. It would be better to live under robber barons than under omnipotent moral busybodies. The robber baron's cruelty may sometimes sleep, his cupidity may at some point be satiated; but those who torment us 'for our own good' will torment us without end for they do so with the approval of their own conscience." -- C.S. Lewis
I agree I don't think being an atheist would matter too much in UK elections. The British electorate do not take kindly to religion being raised in politics. This is why i dont get the BNP's focus on Christian Britain and British Culture (whatever that is) is without a doubt very secular
either do it or don't. But I got places to be
No no no. Sorry if thats how it sounded. I'm an atheist myself, or rather an absurdist, so its not that I think people who aren't 'into' God have no values. Its just that...and this is just my opinion...that we have very little idea of what people who run for office are really like, in this age of spin and Google Page Ranking, every time they appear for the masses its so rehearsed and choreographed. My point was, that if they are a God-guy then that tells me more about them than any nice speach can do. In an ideal world, I would vote for an atheist, as I believe that the war on terror has clear religious undertones, problem is... other than Oliver Letwin, I don't know of many political atheists in the UK. Or any genuinely exciting candidates for that matter...
As for your second point about manipulation and control, I agree. All mainstream religion seeks control. But on the third point, remember, we still have vicars sitting in the house of Lords. With very little to define British culture, I think the masses would be reluctant to elect a non-Christian. Also the ruling class (starting to sound like MN here) are mainly Christian.
Midas, me and Marxist are planing a little shindig in hell, he's bringing weed, me the booze (and more weed), wanna come? I'm planning on watching Jerry Springer The Opera for all eternity. Us Godless heathens gotta stick together...
Democracy is the recurrent suspicion that more than half of the people are right more than half of the time.
E. B. White
"To be honest, you think a/c jump the fence, I say the whole college jump the fence"
The wonder that is Angelcountry
"If we're going to have a police state, at least orgainise it properly!"
Guy Outside the Chilcott Enquiry as he was led away by police for causing a 'disturbance' (thanks to LA I now know his name is Michael Culver)
Senior MP
I agree M.N. keep religion out of politics, religion is a personal belief in the unprovable. When the bible is quoted remember it was written by men of flesh and blood.
Advocates of capitalism believe : "The fortunate must not be restrained in the exercise of tyranny over the unfortunate"
Indeed and what is also interesting is in Britain many Christians also believe in a strong separation between church and state and as I said if anything could be called British Culture it is this sort of secular attitude.I agree M.N. keep religion out of politics, religion is a personal belief in the unprovable. When the bible is quoted remember it was written by men of flesh and blood.
El Diablo Tejano
Strangely enough, we have exactly the opposite in the U.S. Although lefties have twisted the history a bit, the First Amendment was actually intended to keep the GOVERNMENT out of the CHURCH'S business, not the other way around. Since the 1950's we have seen a steady rise in crime, school dropout rates, illiteracy, teen pregnancy, V.D., and other social maladies. I haven't crunched the numbers, but I'd be willing to bet that most of these will correspond to declining church attendance. We, as a nation, are paying the price for the loss of our piety.
"That's a man.....That's a stand tall, walk straight, put God's share in the collection plate, Man"- Jack Ingram
Chancellor
OK, understood, I was perhaps reading too much into what you said; making 2 + 2 equal 5!
Amen to thatMidas, me and Marxist are planing a little shindig in hell, he's bringing weed, me the booze (and more weed), wanna come? I'm planning on watching Jerry Springer The Opera for all eternity. Us Godless heathens gotta stick together...
"Of all tyrannies, a tyranny sincerely exercised 'for the good of its victims' may be the most oppressive. It would be better to live under robber barons than under omnipotent moral busybodies. The robber baron's cruelty may sometimes sleep, his cupidity may at some point be satiated; but those who torment us 'for our own good' will torment us without end for they do so with the approval of their own conscience." -- C.S. Lewis
El Diablo Tejano
I think you misunderstood my statement. I was taught as a child that certain things were just "wrong"; however, they weren't taught within the confines of being the word of God. Stealing was just "wrong". Lying and cheating were just "wrong". Not because God said that they were wrong, but because they just WERE. Since we didn't attend church (God wasn't even mentioned, actually), I guess you could say that they were taught in a secular humanist manner.
As for the unfortunate circumstances in my family, it was actually two-pronged. The first was a denominational issue. My father was raised in a hard-line, old-school, rural west Texas Church of Christ. My mother, on the other hand, was raised in east Texas as a Southern Baptist. There were numerous issues on doctrine and biblical interpretation upon which they disagreed. Anyway, both refused to go to the other's church up until I was about 7. Then, on Halloween night 1980, my mother's older brother was involved in a horrible car wreck and died at the age of 30. At that point, my mother pretty-much lost her faith and refused to go anywhere near a church. She thought that surely a caring and loving God would never allow such a thing to happen. Anyway, she didn't regain her faith until I was out of the house. By then, I was beyond my parents' religious influence. I was away at college.......binge-drinking and chasing after women of extremely questionable moral character.
My decision to become a Christian was made in adulthood. I know you don't think that I am capable of making my own "choices" due to my following of God and an ancient text, but you're incorrect in that assumption. I've lived my life my own way.....without God. Although I've never used illicit drugs (never really found them appealing), I've pretty-much done everything else. I've seen my life come off the rails by following my own desires. Now, being obedient to the word of God, I am a much happier person. I'd rather not go back to the life (or lifestyle) I had when everything was centered on fulfilling my own wants and desires. It's a choice that I've made, and a choice that I am happy with.
"That's a man.....That's a stand tall, walk straight, put God's share in the collection plate, Man"- Jack Ingram
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