Gun Control

[Nicholas]

Sorry, but you must be thick if you can't make the comparison between Britain and the USA here.
In Britain, very few people are allowed guns. Little gun crime.
In the USA, lots of people have guns. School massacres and other fatal incidents.
Its easy.

i cant see where he compared us to the USA but anyway. Little gun crime in the UK? there is plenty of gun crime in the UK most carried out by illegally owned foreign guns or modified versions of non lethal guns. there is also a growing problem with home made weapons. And when you see how easy it is to make one - you will wonder why the state has taken away my right to protect myself and my family.

There is a mad psychosis surrounding guns in this country which i have never really been able to fathom. The criminals have a ready arsenal of weapons - yet the law abiding majority do not. If a man comes into my house and threatens my family or myself i shoudl have the right to defend not only my own life but that opf my family. What do you suggest we do? call the ineffectual police? tackle them with a feather?

Studies in America have shown clearly that states where people are allowed to carry concealed weapons have shown a marked decrease in violent crime. Around 200,000 women every year succesfully defend themselves against rape while carrying a firearm.

Even in Florida where you are allowed to walk around with a concealed weapon , you have more chance of being attacked by a alligator.

Some of the highest gun counts per capita in any single country is in Switzerland. And they had only 34 gun killings in 2006 , lower than the UK. Plus each swiss male is given a firearm upon completion of his military service to be stored at home.

All the looney left will always bring up columbine and other events to mask all the GOOD carrying firearms could do to our society. The BNPs policy on owning a gun isnt funny its just common sense.

[Midas]

I have to admit to being in something of two minds when it comes to the carrying of guns by the general public, and I say this as a registered firearms holder myself owning three shotguns and two rifles, one of which is a semi-automatic. I was also very much against the blanket ban on handguns imposed as a knee-jerk "we've got to do something" reaction following the Dunblane shootings; all that achieved was to deprive something over 750,000 responsible people, including myself, of their hobby.

The statistics which come out of America are conflicting though I have to say. Nicholas is quite correct in much of what he says, however it does have a very high per capita gun crime rate, especially murder. On the other hand he's right when pointing out the situation in Switzerland; perhaps a higher gun ownership per capita than America even, and very little gun crime indeed. But look at South Africa and you see exactly the opposite, high gun ownership and a horrendous level of gun crime.

There's no real pattern to it other than perhaps the stability and responsibility of the people concerned, and I've come to the conclusion that some people should be allowed to carry guns if they choose to do so, but only after very strict and thorough vetting, including a psychological profile. Hand in hand with this though we do need very much tougher laws on both the possession of illegal weapons and on those who choose to violate the property rights of the individual.

[Ronald Reagan]

i cant see where he compared us to the USA but anyway. Little gun crime in the UK? there is plenty of gun crime in the UK most carried out by illegally owned foreign guns or modified versions of non lethal guns. there is also a growing problem with home made weapons. And when you see how easy it is to make one - you will wonder why the state has taken away my right to protect myself and my family.

There is a mad psychosis surrounding guns in this country which i have never really been able to fathom. The criminals have a ready arsenal of weapons - yet the law abiding majority do not. If a man comes into my house and threatens my family or myself i shoudl have the right to defend not only my own life but that opf my family. What do you suggest we do? call the ineffectual police? tackle them with a feather?

I completely agree. I most cases guns save lives. The indivdual can take care of him self more efficiently than any government can and a ban on guns leaves everyone unprotected and only those with bad intent armed. A government that tries to protect its citizens by banning guns infact achieves the opposite and leaves everyone unable to defend themselves and therefore puts more people in danger.

[TellMeMore]

Sorry, but you must be thick if you can't make the comparison between Britain and the USA here.
In Britain, very few people are allowed guns. Little gun crime.
In the USA, lots of people have guns. School massacres and other fatal incidents.
Its easy.

Why would I try to draw parallels? Britian is not the USA. Simple example, in this countyr only the criminals have handguns, citizens (or subjects actually) have to protect themselves as best they can.
School massacres, yes horrific. I don't know, you'd think they'd realise that some people shouldn't be allowed guns. Oh, but wait, the BNP say (according to you) that people who they vet will be allowed guns. OK, sounds fair.
So tell me again why it's a bad idea.

[Ronald Reagan]

Well I'm going to start up the old gun control issue again. Personally I believe that guns could save lives because in Britain we have a very strange situation in which law-abiding citizens don't carry guns however criminals do, leaving us pretty defenceless. Every year thousands of women in America protect themselves from rapists because they are permitted to bear arms, maybe it wouldn't be such a bad idea to legalise them in Britain...

[Midas]

I've moved the discussion on guns and gun controls which were in the http://www.politic.co.uk/bnp/13342-y...icies-bnp.html thread to here. Sorry if this had made Ronald's starter post appear at the top, but the forum software orders posts by date and time and I can't change that.

[Citizen Smith]

Well I'm going to start up the old gun control issue again. Personally I believe that guns could save lives because in Britain we have a very strange situation in which law-abiding citizens don't carry guns however criminals do, leaving us pretty defenceless. Every year thousands of women in America protect themselves from rapists because they are permitted to bear arms, maybe it wouldn't be such a bad idea to legalise them in Britain...

Absolutely RIDICULOUS
open your eyes. See how many people get shot and die in America, compared to in Britain.


We don't get school shooting killing sprees over here, because guns are mostly not allowed!!!!

[Citizen Smith]

Why would I try to draw parallels? Britian is not the USA. Simple example, in this countyr only the criminals have handguns, citizens (or subjects actually) have to protect themselves as best they can.
School massacres, yes horrific. I don't know, you'd think they'd realise that some people shouldn't be allowed guns. Oh, but wait, the BNP say (according to you) that people who they vet will be allowed guns. OK, sounds fair.
So tell me again why it's a bad idea.

When you give ANYONE a gun, you give them the ability to kill- thats what happens in America, its not just criminals, its often "normal" people.

[TellMeMore]

When you give ANYONE a gun, you give them the ability to kill- thats what happens in America, its not just criminals, its often "normal" people.

The people who are likely to kill already have guns. I just want to be able to reciprocate, that's all.

[Midas]

When you give ANYONE a gun, you give them the ability to kill- thats what happens in America, its not just criminals, its often "normal" people.

When you give anyone a car, or a kitchen knife, or a baseball bat... you give them the ability to kill. It's not so much the weapon, it's who is allowed to have what, when, and under what circumstances.

[Citizen Smith]

True enough Midas.
But people who were never criminals get a gun to defend themselves. Then everyone else on the street feels they need a gun.
Some people are trigger happy. Some people have bad tempers. It just doesn't work.

• The rate of firearm deaths among kids under age 15 is almost 12 times higher in the United States than in 25 other industrialized countries combined. (Centers for Disease Control and Prevention)
• American kids are 16 times more likely to be murdered with a gun, 11 times more likely to commit suicide with a gun, and nine times more likely to die from a firearm accident than children in 25 other industrialized countries combined. (Centers for Disease Control)

Gun Violence Statistics

I think its better where even most police officers don't have guns
As for protection, if a criminal has a gun they can shoot you before you get out your gun.
You would have to carry it around with you. all the time. ANd to have any chance of "defending yourself" you would have to shoot someone suspicious before they attacked you.

[Ronald Reagan]

True enough Midas.
But people who were never criminals get a gun to defend themselves. Then everyone else on the street feels they need a gun.
Some people are trigger happy. Some people have bad tempers. It just doesn't work.

• The rate of firearm deaths among kids under age 15 is almost 12 times higher in the United States than in 25 other industrialized countries combined. (Centers for Disease Control and Prevention)
• American kids are 16 times more likely to be murdered with a gun, 11 times more likely to commit suicide with a gun, and nine times more likely to die from a firearm accident than children in 25 other industrialized countries combined. (Centers for Disease Control)

Gun Violence Statistics

I think its better where even most police officers don't have guns
As for protection, if a criminal has a gun they can shoot you before you get out your gun.
You would have to carry it around with you. all the time. ANd to have any chance of "defending yourself" you would have to shoot someone suspicious before they attacked you.

Well, I've never been one to argue with facts.
We still need to remember that there are some messed up people out there and making guns so easily available may not be such a good idea.
Again, it all depends on who's using it. Most people buy guns for protection with no criminal intent and I think we do have the right to protect ourselves with whatever means necessary if our lives are at risk. I'm in two minds about this.

[Midas]

True enough Midas.
But people who were never criminals get a gun to defend themselves. Then everyone else on the street feels they need a gun.
Some people are trigger happy. Some people have bad tempers. It just doesn't work.

I think one of the big problems with the whole gun control issue is the comparison which is made between the UK and the USA. The whole culture in the USA is very different to here, and despite the pervasiveness of part of that culture around the world, to compare the two is like comparing chalk with cheese. There's no fundamental reason to suppose that a widespread ownership of guns here would result in the same type of problems which occur over there. Look at the position before the handgun ban here, we had a quite low degree of gun crime, and it's actually risen since that ban - not necessarily implying the two are connected.

A much better comparison would, I think, be with Switzerland as Nicholas pointed out.

[Ronald Reagan]

Some of the highest gun counts per capita in any single country is in Switzerland. And they had only 34 gun killings in 2006 , lower than the UK. Plus each swiss male is given a firearm upon completion of his military service to be stored at home.

This is a great idea. The social state in America is completely different to Englands. Legalise the right to bear arms but also require a minimum age, backgroud checks and do not allow people who have previously committed crimes to purchase them.
This could work if we go the right way about it.

[Baldilocks]

This is a great idea. The social state in America is completely different to Englands. Legalise the right to bear arms but also require a minimum age, backgroud checks and do not allow people who have previously committed crimes to purchase them.
This could work if we go the right way about it.

I agree .. and I didn't know about that Swiss statistic, by the way.

But I tell you, RR, our Labour government wouldn't dream of this being allowed here. I've the theory that at least some Socialist Governments would oppose such a measure because they don't want the average citizen to feel any more empowered than absolutely necessary.

Own a gun, and - as is true for Americans - they feel empowered as individuals. Socialism is all about the very opposite to that, which is, I'm sure, also why Obama isn't known to be pro-gun ownership himself .. he, too, has his Socialist agenda to foist upon the American people, after all !!

Nope .. we've all got to be good little boys and girls, and rely on the power of the State to wield its authority. That's the Leftie way !

[Ronald Reagan]

I agree .. and I didn't know about that Swiss statistic, by the way.

But I tell you, RR, our Labour government wouldn't dream of this being allowed here. I've the theory that at least some Socialist Governments would oppose such a measure because they don't want the average citizen to feel any more empowered than absolutely necessary.

Own a gun, and - as is true for Americans - they feel empowered as individuals. Socialism is all about the very opposite to that, which is, I'm sure, also why Obama isn't known to be pro-gun ownership himself .. he, too, has his Socialist agenda to foist upon the American people, after all !!

Nope .. we've all got to be good little boys and girls, and rely on the power of the State to wield its authority. That's the Leftie way !

I'm so glad you said that and I agree totally. Socialism is a way of dashing mans hopes and dreams and telling him he cannot achieve anything on his own, that everything must be provided for him and he cannot stand out as an individual.

Sorry for going off topic guys... I couldn't help myself.

[Marxist Nutter]

This may sound facetious and maybe it is a little; but I do seriously wonder if there may be some sort of inverse correlation between the size of gun a man owns or wants to own and his security in his own masculinity.

Indeed this is not such a stupid point when one considers the overtly phallic nature of ballistic weapons, and the fact they were invented by men.

[Tantal]

Nope .. we've all got to be good little boys and girls, and rely on the power of the State to wield its authority. That's the Leftie way !

If you'll look through the history of the 20th century, aside from a few religious squabbles, every genocide has been predicated upon two things:

1. National Socialism
2. Gun Control

Given enough power, I think that the jug-eared Kenyan Marxist could give Hitler, Mao, and Uncle Joe a run for their money, so I'll be hanging on to my firearms......using them if need be.

[Marxist Nutter]

Given enough power, I think that the jug-eared Kenyan Marxist could give Hitler, Mao, and Uncle Joe a run for their money, so I'll be hanging on to my firearms......using them if need be.

Heaven forbid anyone who dares try to stop the boys from playing with their little toys

[Tantal]

God help anyone who dares try to stop the boys from playing with their little toys

FiXx0rated:Mad:

[Citizen Smith]

I'm so glad you said that and I agree totally. Socialism is a way of dashing mans hopes and dreams and telling him he cannot achieve anything on his own, that everything must be provided for him and he cannot stand out as an individual.

Sorry for going off topic guys... I couldn't help myself.

Whereas conservatism is a way of encouraging people to make themselves as rich as possible at the expense of others.

[Marxist Nutter]

FiXx0rated:Mad:

I think that the jug-eared Kenyan Marxist ....

I am so sorry that the Big Black man in the White House is making you so insecure about your 'gun'

[Ronald Reagan]

Whereas conservatism is a way of encouraging people to make themselves as rich as possible at the expense of others.

Well, it's a dog eat dog world, socialists are just people who can't keep up.

[Tantal]

I am so sorry that the Big Black man in the White House is making you so insecure about your 'gun'

I'm not sweating it. The big black man doesn't have the balls to come get them anyway.

[Citizen Smith]

Well, it's a dog eat dog world, socialists are just people who can't keep up.

Then we might as well forget about helping others and contributing to society and all become.....

PERSONAL INJURY SOLICITORS AND DEFENCE LAWYERS!!!!!!!

[Ronald Reagan]

Then we might as well forget about helping others and contributing to society and all become.....

PERSONAL INJURY SOLICITORS AND DEFENCE LAWYERS!!!!!!!

You socialists need to understand that life can't be a fluffy cuddley wonderland in which the government is always there to look after you. You need to look out for yourself and earn what you want.

[Marxist Nutter]

You socialists need to understand that life can't be a fluffy cuddley wonderland in which the government is always there to look after you. You need to look out for yourself and earn what you want.

And you capitalists need to understand that you'll be first against the wall come the revolution - how cuddly is that?

[Tantal]

And you capitalists need to understand that you'll be first against the wall come the revolution - how cuddly is that?

Whenever you feel froggy, Nutter.


Besides, without us capitalists to subsidise your sloth and incompetence, you and you ilk will resort to cannibalism within a month.

[Ronald Reagan]

And you capitalists need to understand that you'll be first against the wall come the revolution - how cuddly is that?

You keep believing that "the revolution" will come and I'll keep living my life of freedom and liberty over here with capitalism.

[Marxist Nutter]

Whenever you feel froggy, Nutter.


Besides, without us capitalists to subsidise your sloth and incompetence, you and you ilk will resort to cannibalism within a month.

Big Gun = Small ****

I don't think Tantal go that point

[Ronald Reagan]

Big Gun = Small ****

I don't think Tantal go that point

Wanting to procet yourself and your family doesn't make your ***** small.

[JAMC]

May come as a surprise to some of you but I have no real issue with civilian gun ownership in principle.

[Citizen Smith]

Wanting to procet yourself and your family doesn't make your ***** small.

Actually if you have agun in your house one of your family is more likely to get hut than if you don't.
They say you are more likely to shoot a family member than an intruder.... but I don't know if thats actually true or not.
But there are often reports of the wrong people, e.g kids, finding guns and people getting hurt, but again I won't pretend to know the truth of this myself.

[Tantal]

Actually if you have agun in your house one of your family is more likely to get hut than if you don't.
They say you are more likely to shoot a family member than an intruder.... but I don't know if thats actually true or not.
But there are often reports of the wrong people, e.g kids, finding guns and people getting hurt, but again I won't pretend to know the truth of this myself.

That's because we have many people who own guns, but are not properly trained. Due to my extensive training, that is not an issue at the Tantal house. Further, I don't leave firearms just lying about; however, my kids know better than to touch them anyway. I've actually unloaded a pistol, slugged the barrel (rendering the weapon inoperable), then left it lying on the coffe table in the living room to see what would happen. My kids just come ask me to move it so that they can use the table. They won't even touch it themselves to get it out of the way.

[Citizen Smith]

That's because we have many people who own guns, but are not properly trained. Due to my extensive training, that is not an issue at the Tantal house. Further, I don't leave firearms just lying about; however, my kids know better than to touch them anyway. I've actually unloaded a pistol, slugged the barrel (rendering the weapon inoperable), then left it lying on the coffe table in the living room to see what would happen. My kids just come ask me to move it so that they can use the table. They won't even touch it themselves to get it out of the way.

I take my hat off to you then as you are clearly a responsible gun-owner.

[JacquesMagique]

Rather than tip the balance in favour of the criminals, gun control laws allow the police to arrest armed troublemakers before they actually attack anybody, which saves innocent lives.

[Tantal]

Rather than tip the balance in favour of the criminals, gun control laws allow the police to arrest armed troublemakers before they actually attack anybody, which saves innocent lives.

We do that here too. Honest, law-abiding people simply get a license, which requires a criminal background check, that indicate to the officer that although they may be armed, they are not troublemakers. I run across armed people daily in my job. Most are law-abiding citizens and are sent on their way. Those who aren't hit the Gray Bar Motel.

[winddomino]

The indivdual can take care of him self more efficiently than any government can and a ban on guns leaves everyone unprotected and only those with bad intent armed. A government that tries to protect its citizens by banning guns infact achieves the opposite and leaves everyone unable to defend themselves and therefore puts more people in danger

[JacquesMagique]

We do that here too. Honest, law-abiding people simply get a license, which requires a criminal background check, that indicate to the officer that although they may be armed, they are not troublemakers. I run across armed people daily in my job. Most are law-abiding citizens and are sent on their way. Those who aren't hit the Gray Bar Motel.

Oh i see. What is the requirement for a license, just a criminal record check? I'm not sure that everybody without a criminal record is neccesarily a law-abiding citizen, sme are just really good at getting away with it.

[Tantal]

Oh i see. What is the requirement for a license, just a criminal record check? I'm not sure that everybody without a criminal record is neccesarily a law-abiding citizen, sme are just really good at getting away with it.

The license requires classroom instruction on the legalities of the use of deadly force, a shooting qualification, and a background check. Typically, if someone is going to run afoul of the law, they have already done so and been caught by the time they're in their 20's. Besides, under our system of laws, we don't deny our citizens rights rights based on what they 'could do', but rather what they 'have done'. It's called 'due process'.

[JacquesMagique]

The license requires classroom instruction on the legalities of the use of deadly force, a shooting qualification, and a background check. Typically, if someone is going to run afoul of the law, they have already done so and been caught by the time they're in their 20's. Besides, under our system of laws, we don't deny our citizens rights rights based on what they 'could do', but rather what they 'have done'. It's called 'due process'.

Oh i see. This isn't too bad really. What age do you have to be?

[Tantal]

Oh i see. This isn't too bad really. What age do you have to be?

Twenty-one.

[Avatar33]

Twenty-one.

But you have be only 18 to own a rifle , or shotgun. Here in Missouri we have background check as well with these weapons ( by phone) with local, state and federal searches to see if you have any crimunal history, or are known mental patient, and or drug user.

[flash]

Oh i see. What is the requirement for a license, just a criminal record check? I'm not sure that everybody without a criminal record is neccesarily a law-abiding citizen, sme are just really good at getting away with it.

Tantal's point is valid. The right to keep and bear arms is a fundamental right that should not be taken away except under the most extraordinary circumstance.

The fact that you think someone may not use the firearm for a proper reason doesn’t meet the threshold.

For instance, here in Florida we have a “shall issue” concealed weapons permit process. That means that once you apply for the permit the state must issue it to you unless you have a record of being untrustworthy like being a convicted violent felon.

[flash]

Actually if you have agun in your house one of your family is more likely to get hut than if you don't.
They say you are more likely to shoot a family member than an intruder.... but I don't know if thats actually true or not.
But there are often reports of the wrong people, e.g kids, finding guns and people getting hurt, but again I won't pretend to know the truth of this myself.

It is hard to fix stupidity sometimes.

People will do stupid things with firearms just like they will do stupid things with other pieces of machinery.

Like Tantal I take great care to keep my firearms in a safe place. I am a NRA Firearms Instructor and a Certified Range Officer. Why should I be denied the right to keep and bear arms just because my neighbor is a moron and keeps a loaded gun in an unsecured place?

[claire]

It's sort of hard to determine what "arms" are huh? That makes the right to bear arms a little more complicated.

[Tantal]

It's sort of hard to determine what "arms" are huh? That makes the right to bear arms a little more complicated.

Not really. I think it's pretty clear that the framers of the Constitution were referring to small, personal arms like rifles, shotguns, and handguns.

[Midas]

Moved a few divergent threads on the cost of living to here - http://www.politic.co.uk/general-dis...iving-gap.html

[flash]

It's sort of hard to determine what "arms" are huh? That makes the right to bear arms a little more complicated.

The Supreme Court addressed this in the Heller v DC case last year. Arms would include all pistols and rifles. They also addressed the issue of what "bear arms" means. It means an individual can actually have and use a rifle or pistol and the state cannot unreasonably interfere with that right like they did with Heller by denying him the right to own a pistol.

Heller also settled the issue of individual right by very forcefully stating that the Second Amendment applies to individuals and was not referring to some state organized militia like the National Guards. The anti gun nuts had been spouting that rubbish for years.

[enginetorque]

i cant see where he compared us to the USA but anyway. Little gun crime in the UK? there is plenty of gun crime in the UK most carried out by illegally owned foreign guns or modified versions of non lethal guns. there is also a growing problem with home made weapons. And when you see how easy it is to make one - you will wonder why the state has taken away my right to protect myself and my family.

There is a mad psychosis surrounding guns in this country which i have never really been able to fathom. The criminals have a ready arsenal of weapons - yet the law abiding majority do not. If a man comes into my house and threatens my family or myself i shoudl have the right to defend not only my own life but that opf my family. What do you suggest we do? call the ineffectual police? tackle them with a feather?

Studies in America have shown clearly that states where people are allowed to carry concealed weapons have shown a marked decrease in violent crime. Around 200,000 women every year succesfully defend themselves against rape while carrying a firearm.

Even in Florida where you are allowed to walk around with a concealed weapon , you have more chance of being attacked by a alligator.

Some of the highest gun counts per capita in any single country is in Switzerland. And they had only 34 gun killings in 2006 , lower than the UK. Plus each swiss male is given a firearm upon completion of his military service to be stored at home.

All the looney left will always bring up columbine and other events to mask all the GOOD carrying firearms could do to our society. The BNPs policy on owning a gun isnt funny its just common sense.

This IS irony right ?

I know I know - "guns don't kill people - people kill people" - right