62% of Americans favour the public health option.

[Expounder]

62% of Americans favour the public health care option and 61% supported higher taxes on the wealthy in order to pay for it. Washington post columnist Steven Pearlstein has described the Republicans as "political terrorists". An activist posing as an ordinary mum turns out to be a "senior Republican party official"

Union groups are being organised to combat organised Republican groups linked to groups funded by the health care industry who are disrupting and causing "fear of violence" at meetings organised by Democratic Senators in support of Obama's health care plans causing many meetings to be cancelled...............Read the link

If this is happening, could parrallels be drawn with anti democratic forces in before and after WW2 in Europe that used the same tactics to drown out democracy?



Obama fights back as bid to reform US healthcare stalls | World news | The Observer

[Syph]

62% of Americans favour the public health care option and 61% supported higher taxes on the wealthy in order to pay for it. Washington post columnist Steven Pearlstein has described the Republicans as "political terrorists". An activist posing as an ordinary mum turns out to be a "senior Republican party official"

The Washington Post has a reputation in the USA for it and its readers being left-wing.

There's nothing wrong, but reader polls aren't always accurate.

Union groups are being organised to combat organised Republican groups linked to groups funded by the health care industry who are disrupting and causing "fear of violence" at meetings organised by Democratic Senators in support of Obama's health care plans causing many meetings to be cancelled...............

McCarthyism stirred up the Republicans in the same way. It can all be traced back to the hatred of communism and spies in the Cold War.

If they think that the Jug-eared Kenyan Marxist is threatening their Social Darwinist agenda what can you expect.

If this is happening, could parrallels be drawn with anti democratic forces in before and after WW2 in Europe that used the same tactics to drown out democracy?

There are no parallels! This is strictly anti-"communist". The Republicans feel threatened because this is the closest they have ever been to accepting anything socialists in their country since the 60's.

[DC]

Let's-all-go- TO CUBA!!
Let's-all-go- TO CUBA!!
Sing it with me!
Let's-all-go- TO CUBA!!

[Expounder]

The Washington Post has a reputation in the USA for it and its readers being left-wing.

There's nothing wrong, but reader polls aren't always accurate.



McCarthyism stirred up the Republicans in the same way. It can all be traced back to the hatred of communism and spies in the Cold War.

If they think that the Jug-eared Kenyan Marxist is threatening their Social Darwinist agenda what can you expect.



There are no parallels! This is strictly anti-"communist". The Republicans feel threatened because this is the closest they have ever been to accepting anything socialists in their country since the 60's.

Breaking up meetings was a Nazi tactic which brought them to power by closing down democratic discussion with the threat of violence and actual violence.

I hope the US unions steward these meetings and show any organised trouble makers [who want prevent free and democratic discussion] the door. The Republicans and their cohorts the "health care" companies want to do to the Democrats what Republican led administrations have been doing non complying countries the world over.

[Avatar33]

Breaking up meetings was a Nazi tactic which brought them to power by closing down democratic discussion with the threat of violence and actual violence.

I hope the US unions steward these meetings and show any organised trouble makers [who want prevent free and democratic discussion] the door. The Republicans and their cohorts the "health care" companies want to do to the Democrats what Republican led administrations have been doing non complying countries the world over.

This has already happened in Saint Louis this week.

Four Union thugs beat up a man for selling " Don't thread on me" flags and t-shirts outside the town hall. They yelled racial slurs and sent this poor guy to the ER.

Yes, it the Left here that has started to hurt people because they don't agree with this government health care plan ( they don't like the idea of being taxed within an inch of their lives, and having the state deciding who lives and dies).

WP is a bad source, they struckure the questions so they always get the answer they want.

So is this what we can expect from the future? Goons beating us up when we voice our displeasure with government actions? Having the government calling us terroists because we don't go along the program?
Left wanting to strip people of their liberties because we want to indivuals, and reject the collective?

YOU MUST LOVE BIG BROTHER .... OR ELSE!

[flash]

One recent poll showed that 62% of Americans favoured a public option and 61% supported higher taxes on the wealthy in order to pay for it.

Wishful thinking by the Liberals. Maybe a poll taken on Democratunderground.com but not in real America.

There have been scores of polls taken on this and none that I have seen has shown the majority of Americans in favor of Obama's plan or the idea of a nationalized health care

[JacquesMagique]

Wishful thinking by the Liberals. Maybe a poll taken on Democratunderground.com but not in real America.

There have been scores of polls taken on this and none that I have seen has shown the majority of Americans in favor of Obama's plan or the idea of a nationalized health care

Wasn't it a huge part of his election platform though? This would suggest considerable support for it.

[Tantal]

The "public option" is a trojan horse for universal, single-payer care and everyone knows it. Obama is actually on video saying that he supports single payer, but that we're going to have to get there incrementally and that the "public option" is only the first step. He's also on video making the statement that "we're not going to be able to get rid of employer-funded insurance overnight....but that it may take, 10, 15, or 20 years." So, the "public option" is only going to be an "option" for a short time, then it'll be mandatory.

[flash]

Wasn't it a huge part of his election platform though? This would suggest considerable support for it.

Only about one in seven Americans voted for Obama so there is no suggesting that Obama's platform is what America wants. Six in seven Americans may have other ideas.

America is basically a Conservative country. During the last election many Conservatives did not vote or get excited about the election because McCain was a Liberal.

Also, every Black in America, many who had never voted in their lives, turned out.

Actually I don't remember him talking a lot about health care during the campaign. He mentioned but he never told the people he was going to screw things up like this present health care bill. I think that if had laid out the plan like is in the present bill then he would have lost a lot of support.

People all across America are protesting against Obama's plan to destroy health care. The Democrats are even stopping their August recess plan of in person town hall meetings because of the questions being asked about Obama's health care plan. We had a big protest the other night here in Central Florida.

[Expounder]

Let's-all-go- TO CUBA!!
Let's-all-go- TO CUBA!!
Sing it with me!
Let's-all-go- TO CUBA!!

And all get better medical health care

[oldbill]

As an American who stays in the UK for a few months every year I am so tired of the American Republicans bad mouthing the UK NHS! I would venture to say the UK NHS is every bit as good as the American health care and the UK Doctors care about there paitents where as the American Doctors main interest is the $$$$$$$$! Bill

[Expounder]

As an American who stays in the UK for a few months every year I am so tired of the American Republicans bad mouthing the UK NHS! I would venture to say the UK NHS is every bit as good as the American health care and the UK Doctors care about there paitents where as the American Doctors main interest is the $$$$$$$$! Bill

At last a voice of experience and reason in this debate.

[flash]

As an American who stays in the UK for a few months every year I am so tired of the American Republicans bad mouthing the UK NHS! I would venture to say the UK NHS is every bit as good as the American health care and the UK Doctors care about there paitents where as the American Doctors main interest is the $$$$$$$$! Bill

I don't think I have heard very many Republicans bad mouthing the UK NHS but I am sure you can enlighten me on the specifics.

I have, however, heard people from the UK "bad mouthing" the NHS system.

I am sure the British doctors are competent and as good as any in the world. After all the UK is a "First World" country and will have good medical facilities.

I would like for you to give me a good example of an American doctor running up the bill as you stated. There were a few doctors indicted for putting in false Medicare charges to the government. Is that what you are talking about?

I know that American physicians tend to require a lot of test. I think the reason for this is because of the fear of malpractice suits. The Trial Lawyers Association love malpractice suits. The Trial Lawyer's Association is second only to the filthy Unions in the amount of money given to the Democrat party and the Democrat Party makes darn sure there will never be reform in that area that would have a substantial impact on health care cost.

Republicans and other Conservatives have been fighting hard for Malpractice Tort Reform but the Democrats have been fighting against it. That would do more to reduce the cost of health care in the US than just about anything else but the Liberals won’t let it happen. I guess money speaks, doesn’t it?

I have also occasionally run across physicians in the US that tend to overbook their appointments. In those cases you may have to wait awhile in the waiting room to see the doctor. Whenever that happens to me I just change physicians. In fact I did that last year with a dermatologist. I was having to wait 40-45 minutes every visit so I fired him and hired another doctor where I only have to wait 10 minutes or less.

[flash]

At last a voice of experience and reason in this debate.

I have a great voice of reason in this debate. However, some people just don't want to hear what I have to say because it challenges their Socialistic mindset.

For instance, I have used my experience of seeing Canadians with socialized medicine flood to America for quality health care but socialists seems to ignore that experience.

[Balthazar]

I don't think I have heard very many Republicans bad mouthing the UK NHS

LOL

'I owe my life to the NHS': Stephen Hawking tells US to stop attacking health service

...the Investor's Business Daily said in an editorial: 'People such as scientist Stephen Hawking wouldn't have a chance in the UK, where the National Health Service would say the life of this brilliant man, because of his physical handicaps, is essentially worthless.'

They had to correct the piece when it was pointed out that the physicist was born, lives and works in the UK.

Mr Hawking said: 'I wouldn't be here today if it were not for the NHS.'

Republican Senator Chuck Grassley claimed that Democrat Senator Edward Kennedy, who is being treated for a brain tumour, would be left to die in Britain because he is 77.

Source

http://i.dailymail.co.uk/i/pix/2009/...18_468x320.jpg

At root the US health care debate is racist. Most uninsured or under-insured Americans are black or Hispanic and right-wing, middle class whitey can't stand the idea of their taxes going to their healthcare.

But rather than admit they're racist trash they invent lies about the NHS, such as the one about Prof Hawking. It's amusing to see it reported in the Daily Mail - a British mass circulation right-wing daily.

[oldbill]

flash I am not defending the Obamacare forum of health care. I am defending the UK NHS I do believe one you could be proud of! Bill

[Midas]

Although far from a lover of socialised health care except at a very basic level, statements such as this: "Republican Senator Chuck Grassley claimed that Democrat Senator Edward Kennedy, who is being treated for a brain tumour, would be left to die in Britain because he is 77." are patently untrue. Whilst the NHS has massive problems and inefficiencies, denial of treatment due to age is most certainly not one of them!

[oldbill]

Flash I will try to obtain all the Republican e-mails sent to me by Republicans regarding "Republicans bad mouthing the UK NHS" A wed site I went to on a daily basis seems to be closed as of now it had a lot of information it was titled: T/Net Hot Talk. Bill

[flash]

At root the US health care debate is racist. Most uninsured or under-insured Americans are black or Hispanic and right-wing, middle class whitey can't stand the idea of their taxes going to their healthcare.

But rather than admit they're racist trash they invent lies about the NHS, such as the one about Prof Hawking. It's amusing to see it reported in the Daily Mail - a British mass circulation right-wing daily.

So not being in favor of giving your hard earned money to Blacks and Hispanic is somehow racists? My God, are you serious?

Is that a form of intimidation or something? Am I supposed to be intimidated because you placed the race card? LOL

I don't give a crap about anybody that can't afford their own health care, regardless of of skin color. Just because Blacks and Brown have a higher rate of not being able to afford the same kind of health care that I get it is interesting but it is not my problem.

You do understand that this health care debate in the US is not about providing health care for those that can't afford it, don't you? In the US almost anybody can get free health care one way or another.

The agenda of Obongo is to get his Ebonics speaking soul brothers and sisters and the illegal alien community out of the free health clinics and into the offices of the private doctors. The same doctors I go to.

That is a racists agenda if I ever heard of one. He is willing to destroy health care in the US in order to give a free ride to his Black constituency. Black racism if I ever saw it. Many people in the US are calling it his reparations agenda which is a dirty racists agenda.

[flash]

Flash I will try to obtain all the Republican e-mails sent to me by Republicans regarding "Republicans bad mouthing the UK NHS" A wed site I went to on a daily basis seems to be closed as of now it had a lot of information it was titled: T/Net Hot Talk. Bill

I am news junkie and I do not hear wide spread Republican criticism of NHS. That doesn't mean it is absolutely zero. I am sure you could come up something or another but that is not a focus of the present health care debate. Not by a long shot and for you to suggest otherwise is disingenuous.

I hear some talk about the high cost of health care in the socialized countries. More of that has been directed toward Canada than the UK. Is that not fair game?

Is it not fair to point out that that "there ain't no such thing as a free lunch" as the Socialist seem to not understand?

Is it not fair to point out the problems with socialized medicine in those countries that have that system?

[oldbill]

Flash, some information that you requested: "Republican Senators seized on a finding by The Commonwealth Fund that Britain had one of the worst waiting lists in the developed world, with 33 per cent of adults waiting two months or longer for specialist attention for a chronic condition over the past two years. The equivalent figure in the US was 10 per cent.
"Right now, nearly 1.8 million Britons are waiting for hospital or outpatient treatments at any given time," said Senator Bob Bennett.
"Let's realise that the American voter will never stand for the kind of rationing by delay that seems to have crept into every other government-run health care system." Anna Dixon, the director of policy at the King's Fund, the independent think tank, described the allegation as "stereotypes of the NHS from problems in the 1980s and 1990s when there were really long waiting lists". Bill

[Tantal]

So not being in favor of giving your hard earned money to Blacks and Hispanic is somehow racists? My God, are you serious?

Apparently, there's something you've yet to learn about this board and possibly British PC culture in general. To them, being labeled as a racist is the worst thing in the world. Many here would rather be regarded as an incestuous homosexual pedophile necrophiliac than a racist. Their politically correct dogma automatically places minorities in a superior position simply because of their skin color. Further, if you're white, you are automatically ASSUMED to be a racist unless you prove otherwise. By 'prove otherwise' I mean that you must kiss the asses of minorities at every opportunity and offer excuses for their behavior every chance you get. Any time someone mentions that there's a possibility that blacks commit crimes at a higher rate, you must immediately label that person as a racist, then offer passionate arguments as to why it's all the white man's fault anyway. Thus endeth Flash's lesson on the British view of racial bias.

[Midas]

Flash, some information that you requested: "Republican Senators seized on a finding by The Commonwealth Fund that Britain had one of the worst waiting lists in the developed world, with 33 per cent of adults waiting two months or longer for specialist attention for a chronic condition over the past two years. The equivalent figure in the US was 10 per cent.
"Right now, nearly 1.8 million Britons are waiting for hospital or outpatient treatments at any given time," said Senator Bob Bennett.
"Let's realise that the American voter will never stand for the kind of rationing by delay that seems to have crept into every other government-run health care system." Anna Dixon, the director of policy at the King's Fund, the independent think tank, described the allegation as "stereotypes of the NHS from problems in the 1980s and 1990s when there were really long waiting lists". Bill

With totally false statements like "Right now, nearly 1.8 million Britons are waiting for hospital or outpatient treatments at any given time" being bandied around by people who should know far better, it's little wonder that there's such confusion over this whole issue. To quote from the NHS:-

"The most recent official statistics for the NHS in England showed that more than 550,000 people were waiting for hospital treatment last October. A total of 32,900 had to wait over 13 weeks, while a further 56 had to wait more than 26 weeks."

Still far too many and way, way too long in my opinion, but telling lies which are so obvious, does no-one any credit.

[flash]

Although far from a lover of socialised health care except at a very basic level, statements such as this: "Republican Senator Chuck Grassley claimed that Democrat Senator Edward Kennedy, who is being treated for a brain tumour, would be left to die in Britain because he is 77." are patently untrue. Whilst the NHS has massive problems and inefficiencies, denial of treatment due to age is most certainly not one of them!

I would suggest to you that is nothing more than political rhetoric.

Some of Obongo's closest advisors have suggested a program of health care rationing in times of shortages.

The opposition is using that discussion as a fear tactic. Typical politics as usual.

Hell, if can get to scare the people then the battle is half won.

[Midas]

I would suggest to you that is nothing more than political rhetoric.

Some of Obongo's closest advisors have suggested a program of health care rationing in times of shortages.

The opposition is using that discussion as a fear tactic. Typical politics as usual.

Hell, if can get scare the people then the battle is half won.

My point, and that in my last post, is more that if people in positions of power and authority are resorting to such blatant lying to get their point over, it does little to give any credence to their other claims, regardless of how sound the underlying premise might be.

[flash]

Apparently, there's something you've yet to learn about this board and possibly British PC culture in general. To them, being labeled as a racist is the worst thing in the world. Many here would rather be regarded as an incestuous homosexual pedophile necrophiliac than a racist. Their politically correct dogma automatically places minorities in a superior position simply because of their skin color. Further, if you're white, you are automatically ASSUMED to be a racist unless you prove otherwise. By 'prove otherwise' I mean that you must kiss the asses of minorities at every opportunity and offer excuses for their behavior every chance you get. Any time someone mentions that there's a possibility that blacks commit crimes at a higher rate, you must immediately label that person as a racist, then offer passionate arguments as to why it's all the white man's fault anyway. Thus endeth Flash's lesson on the British view of racial bias.

Thanks for the lesson; however, I think their scorn will be useless with this Southern boy.

I also think that they, along with their Liberal American friends, probably don't have a clue what racism is really all about. I doubt they even care about Black racism.

[flash]

My point, and that in my last post, is more that if people in positions of power and authority are resorting to such blatant lying to get their point over, it does little to give any credence to their other claims, regardless of how sound the underlying premise might be.

There is not much NHS bashing in the news. Some minor talk but nothing of substance.

What is really bad to me is what Obongo is using to sell his program.

First he tried to tell everybody it was to provide health care to those that don't have it. That failed because the American people know that health care is provided some way or another to almost everybody. Only about 10% of Americans don't have health care and they can usually get some kind of free service.

The second thing Obongo did was try the BS of it will improve health care but everybody in the US knows that the government has never improved anything. That didn't get him very far at all.

Presently Obongo has switched to the tacit of using hate and fear against the insurance companies. He is making them to be the villains.

Because of the fear tactics and irrationality the debate has gone south in several areas and will continue to do in the future.

Like I said, politics as usual.

[LA]

At root the US health care debate is racist. Most uninsured or under-insured Americans are black or Hispanic and right-wing, middle class whitey can't stand the idea of their taxes going to their healthcare.

Rubbish.
They can't stand the idea of their taxes going up period!

[LA]

I hear some talk about the high cost of health care in the socialized countries. More of that has been directed toward Canada than the UK. Is that not fair game?

Is it not fair to point out that that "there ain't no such thing as a free lunch" as the Socialist seem to not understand?

Is it not fair to point out the problems with socialized medicine in those countries that have that system?

For every $1 you spend on healthcare, the British system costs 51 cents.

To quote a blog
"Its cheap. Very cheap. Too cheap!!"

[Midas]

For every $1 you spend on healthcare, the British system costs 51 cents.

Are you able to quantify that assertion LA? I spent a couple of hours yesterday - not a great deal of time I admit - in trying to find out some, any, official guidelines as to how our national insurance contributions and taxes are apportioned regarding the NHS, and you know what? Zero. There don't seem to be any official, or at least, any public, figures available, so how have you come up with the very precise one of 51%?

[LA]

Are you able to quantify that assertion LA? I spent a couple of hours yesterday - not a great deal of time I admit - in trying to find out some, any, official guidelines as to how our national insurance contributions and taxes are apportioned regarding the NHS, and you know what? Zero. There don't seem to be any official, or at least, any public, figures available, so how have you come up with the very precise one of 51%?

I cannot find it.
I am still trying to find it.

To clarify, it is a comparison between America and Britain. For every $1 they spend in America on health care, we spend 51 cents.

I am trying to find the article.

[Balthazar]

Rubbish. They can't stand the idea of their taxes going up period!

It's a combination of direct and indirect racism. The indirect racism bit's easy to analyse: c. 50m US citizens, mainly black or Hispanic, whom it suits the political right to deny adequate healthcare.

Here's their real argument: that keeping a large group of mainly black and Hispanic citizens without health insurance or under-insured is a social good. It puts the fear of God into them, provides a disciplined and malleable underclass which private industry can exploit, makes them go out and get three low paid jobs, and applies good, social Darwinist principles whereby the weak and the feckless go to the wall, white middle class tax-pressure is kept low, and the profits of private health insurance companies maintained or increased.

But there's also a hard-core of out-and-out direct racists who positively welcome the medical persecution of those 50m owing to the colour of their skin. The thought of a level medical playing field across all races drives them nuts.

But the two arguments - flowing from indirect and direct racism - can't be widely stated due to the political fallout which would occur if they were. So they're not just racists but cowards and hypocrites too, who one moment wax lyrical about their opposition to 'political correctness' but the next keep their mouths firmly shut for fear of their disgusting racism and hypocrisy becoming widely known.

Instead they tell lies about the British NHS, lies about Canadians flocking over the border for US healthcare, lies about the astronomical cost of the US medical system, lies about the fraud endemic in US healthcare, and lies about how much money the health insurance companies are stuffing into right-wing pockets so they can issue lying propaganda and send Nazi mobs to disrupt the town-hall meetings.

LOL:

TWITTER crashed yesterday as thousands of Brits defended the NHS after an attack by ex-US vice-presidential candidate Sarah Palin.

Source

I say the more lies they tell the better. They can't tell the truth because the truth makes them sound so vile, and when they tell lies they can be exposed by the likes of Prof Hawking and laughed at by the entire civilized world.

[Balthazar]

hehe

Among the inaccuracies that have irritated the Government are claims that NHS patients over the age of 59 cannot get heart repairs and that women under 25 are 'not allowed' breast cancer screening.

Another advert said 40 per cent of UK cancer patients do not have access to a specialist. Macmillan Cancer Support said this figure was 15 years out of date.

Source

What's funny about the lies being publicised in the US about the NHS is either (a) they're simply false - massive, stinking, porkies - or (b) they were true in the past but when Britain last had a Conservative government.

So PLEASE. The more lies the better. We've got an election in Britain next year and it's great for the population to be reminded:

1. What tremendous liars the political right are; and

2. Just how bad things got in the NHS the last time Conservatives had power.

[LA]

Firstly, I find it incredibly naive to blame the whole political right.
Lies come from all political scales, not just the right.

Due to Labours dreadful spending and inability to reform, the NHS will slowly begin to crumble as it needs to devour huge sums of finance that we just do not have.

[Balthazar]

Firstly, I find it incredibly naive to blame the whole political right.
Lies come from all political scales, not just the right.

Please name one lie the left is telling in the US healthcare debate - properly sourced as I have with the rightist lies cited above. G'wan! Do it now. Don't run and hide like Flash when he's asked to source his claims.

Due to Labours dreadful spending and inability to reform, the NHS will slowly begin to crumble as it needs to devour huge sums of finance that we just do not have.

That argument won't wash politically in Britain. The entire population watched the bankers bailed out with great dollops of public cash. Any claim that the money's not there for the NHS would be met with a great belly-laugh. It's now impossible for Cameron to do other than guarantee inflation-linked NHS spending for at least one term.

The Tories are wildly nervous about their reputation on the NHS. See how quickly Cameron moved against this story:

David Cameron, the Conservative leader, said Mr Hannan was wrong in his criticism of the NHS. Andrew Lansley, the Conservative shadow health secretary, accused the MEP of presenting a “negative and partial” view of the NHS in his contribution to the US debate about health care.

As Mr Hannan’s comments spread across the internet, Mr Lansley released a statement defending the NHS and rebuking his party colleague.

Mr Lansley said: "There are millions of people who are grateful for the care they have received from the NHS.

"It does them and the NHS a disservice for Daniel Hannan to give Americans such a negative and partial view. That we can access health care free at point of use, based on need, is something others envy.”

Mr Cameron said he did not agree with Mr Hannan's remarks. Mr Cameron said: "I support the NHS 100% and the Conservative Party supports the NHS 100 per cent.

Source

[Midas]

Just a point Balthazar, but in your last post you quoted a Telegraph article which contained the sentence "There are millions of people who are grateful for the care they have received from the NHS". This might well be the case, I personally know of several people who are exceedingly grateful for the care and treatment they've received, but, and it's a big but, 'being grateful for' is a far cry from saying that they approve of the service or the way that it's funded or managed! It's a fallacious assumption, commonly used by both the media and politicians, to link the two things as if they were synonymous.

You might well 'be grateful' to have one leg saved after a serious accident; it doesn't necessarily mean you'd not rather have been even more grateful to have had both saved!

[flash]

It's a combination of direct and indirect racism. The indirect racism bit's easy to analyse: c. 50m US citizens, mainly black or Hispanic, whom it suits the political right to deny adequate healthcare.

It seems to me that you are the one telling the lies.

Nobody in the US is really denied health care. There are plenty of programs available for anybody that can't afford their own. For instance, in my state we have free clinics in every county. All welfare recipients are given health care. All children are given health care if they cannot afford it.

As far as insurance goes no Hispanic or Black is ever denied. There are laws in this country that says you can't discriminate on the basis of race or national origin. If a Black or Hispanic wants health insurance then all they have to is go buy it.

lies about Canadians flocking over the border for US healthcare

That is hardly a lie. I have personally witness that when I lived in Washington State.

[LA]

That argument won't wash politically in Britain. The entire population watched the bankers bailed out with great dollops of public cash. Any claim that the money's not there for the NHS would be met with a great belly-laugh. It's now impossible for Cameron to do other than guarantee inflation-linked NHS spending for at least one term.

Like I said, we cannot afford the NHS.
We have a huge budget deficit - That means we cannot afford it.
We couldn't afford to bail out the banks either.

[Balthazar]

Nobody in the US is really denied health care.

lozl

[Tantal]

Please name one lie the left is telling in the US healthcare debate - properly sourced as I have with the rightist lies cited above.

I'll give you the BIGGEST lie they're telling: "If you like your current health insurance, you'll be able to keep it".-Barack Obama

YouTube - Barack Obama: I Want Universal Health Care, Not Private Insurance (2007) [Naked Emperor News]

What he means is, you'll be able to keep it for now.....at least for as long as it takes for the government to crush private insurance companies. Once they're put out of business, you'll have no choice but to grovel at the feet of government for medical care. That's exactly what Statists like Barry the Mulatto want......to hold the power of life and death over their citizenry........it helps to keep them in-line.

[Balthazar]

I'll give you the BIGGEST lie they're telling: "If you like your current health insurance, you'll be able to keep it".-Barack Obama

YouTube - Barack Obama: I Want Universal Health Care, Not Private Insurance (2007) [Naked Emperor News]

What he means is, you'll be able to keep it for now.....at least for as long as it takes for the government to crush private insurance companies. Once they're put out of business, you'll have no choice but to grovel at the feet of government for medical care. That's exactly what Statists like Barry the Mulatto want......to hold the power of life and death over their citizenry........it helps to keep them in-line.

Would you mind explaining exactly how Obama plans to crush the private insurance companies? We've had BUPA in Britain for many years, existing side by side with the NHS. It hasn't been 'crushed' by evil socialists.

I think you're fantasising again, my dear chap, to send delicious shivers running down the Tantal backbone.

hehe:

Two British women who have become the unwitting stars of a campaign to derail Barack Obama’s healthcare reforms yesterday said that their views on the NHS had been misrepresented.

Katie Brickell and Kate Spall said that they strongly supported state-funded healthcare, but their descriptions of poor treatment at the hands of the NHS form the centrepiece of an advertising campaign against the proposed reforms in America. Both appear in adverts for Conservatives for Patients’ Rights (CPR), a lobby group that opposes Mr Obama’s plans for universal medical insurance, which have caused a transatlantic rift over the merits of the NHS...

London Times

It's a strategic mistake imv for the US right to be telling lies about the NHS. It's the lead news item on the BBC 'Today' programme this morning. Crusty old colonels are coming out of the woodwork to say how much they love socialised medicine. David Cameron has had to rush out a mass email saying he thinks the NHS is fabulous.

[Tantal]

Would you mind explaining exactly how Obama plans to crush the private insurance companies? We've had BUPA in Britain for many years, existing side by side with the NHS. It hasn't been 'crushed' by evil socialists.

Did you watch the video? "Single-payer" means "government run". If he gets his way, the government will put further restrictions on employers, such as penalties for not buying into the 'public option', so that they eventually just move us all into the government plan. Sure, the wealthy will be able to afford private supplemental insurance, but what about the rest of us? I can't afford to pay for two health plans. It'll be much like the public school system. You can send your kids to private school, but you're still going to be taxed for the public schools whether your kids attend them or not. Most families can afford one or the other, but not both. The long and short of it is that I don't trust the federal government to run a lemonade stand, much less 20% of our economy.

[Balthazar]

Did you watch the video?

Sure. It wasn't scary at all. No death camps for NRA members, no goose-stepping San Francisco homosexuals....

"Single-payer" means "government run". If he gets his way, the government will put further restrictions on employers, such as penalties for not buying into the 'public option', so that they eventually just move us all into the government plan.

What's wrong with that? If the private companies can't compete with the federal plan

----> to the wall.

Sure, the wealthy will be able to afford private supplemental insurance, but what about the rest of us?

In Britain in the 1970s NHS hospitals had private wards where the wealthy got special treatment (and consultants higher salaries). After a public scandal backed by a campaign of selective strikes by nurses (who've always been highly unwilling to strike, bless 'em) the numbers were drastically reduced.

So that's America's next battle. Sure, let the wealthy pay for their snobby BUPA-type private health schemes if they choose. But don't allow them to use a single bed pan funded by the federal plan. Why should the rich free-load like welfare queens off the state system?

I can't afford to pay for two health plans.

Don't then. Use the state system and defend it like we do the NHS - from raving socialists to die-hard Tories.

It'll be much like the public school system. You can send your kids to private school, but you're still going to be taxed for the public schools whether your kids attend them or not.

Of course. That's your choice in a free society. It's also in your interests to have a good state education system, regardless of whether you use it for your brood. You're less likely to be murdered in your bed if the general population has a good education. The same argument applies to the nation's health.

The long and short of it is that I don't trust the federal government to run a lemonade stand, much less 20% of our economy.

Well get the federal government under control then! Are you a man or a mouse? This rightist, conspiraloon fear of the state doesn't reflect well on you. It makes you look like a pussy. You and Flash are like a couple of quivering schoolgirls. But I don't see why other Americans should suffer because you're scared of a few bureaucrats.


NB I hear from sources in the military that Brits and Yanks working together in Afghanistan are having a 'lively debate' about the lies being told in America about the NHS. Oh dear, oh dear. British soldiers, at this very moment, are dripping socialist health propaganda into clean-cut Yankee ears.

[Midas]

So that's America's next battle. Sure, let the wealthy pay for their snobby BUPA-type private health schemes if they choose. But don't allow them to use a single bed pan funded by the federal plan. Why should the rich free-load like welfare queens off the state system?

What's 'snobby' about wanting to have a far faster, more efficient, cleaner, more comfortable and more effective option? I'm sure that if you or a member of your family was suddenly taken seriously ill that you'd want the best care that could be provided, and with the best will in the world, that's not available on the NHS! They might try hard to do their best within the limitations placed on them, but when it comes down to it, by virtually any measure of comparison, including bottom line costs, private medical care is superior.

One small example. A friend who has private medical cover was diagnosed with breast cancer a while ago, and within 36 hours of her feeling a lump she had seen the consultant, been in surgery, had a lumpectomy and was on the road to recovery. Coincidentally someone else I know was also diagnosed with cancer the same week; 6 weeks later he was still waiting to be seen by an NHS consultant......

[Balthazar]

What's 'snobby' about wanting to have a far faster, more efficient, cleaner, more comfortable and more effective option? I'm sure that if you or a member of your family was suddenly taken seriously ill that you'd want the best care that could be provided, and with the best will in the world, that's not available on the NHS! They might try hard to do their best within the limitations placed on them, but when it comes down to it, by virtually any measure of comparison, including bottom line costs, private medical care is superior.

One small example. A friend who has private medical cover was diagnosed with breast cancer a while ago, and within 36 hours of her feeling a lump she had seen the consultant, been in surgery, had a lumpectomy and was on the road to recovery. Coincidentally someone else I know was also diagnosed with cancer the same week; 6 weeks later he was still waiting to be seen by an NHS consultant......

Oh come on. You must have seen BUPA membership used by snobs in a Hyacinth Bucket type way? As long as it doesn't effect the medical care of the general population I think that's fine. Snobs will be snobs. Let them play their silly games. But the moment, say, a hard-working NHS nurse sees resources moved from public to private they should talk to their trade union about taking strike action. The public is enormously supportive and nurses always look good on the picket line!

[Expounder]

Flash, some information that you requested: "Republican Senators seized on a finding by The Commonwealth Fund that Britain had one of the worst waiting lists in the developed world, with 33 per cent of adults waiting two months or longer for specialist attention for a chronic condition over the past two years. The equivalent figure in the US was 10 per cent.
"Right now, nearly 1.8 million Britons are waiting for hospital or outpatient treatments at any given time," said Senator Bob Bennett.
"Let's realise that the American voter will never stand for the kind of rationing by delay that seems to have crept into every other government-run health care system." Anna Dixon, the director of policy at the King's Fund, the independent think tank, described the allegation as "stereotypes of the NHS from problems in the 1980s and 1990s when there were really long waiting lists". Bill

Thanks O.B.And these waiting lists were deliberately created by the hand bag swinging right wing Tory Thatcher who deliberately underfunded the NHS and played Russian roulette with the lives British people.

Many people died unnecessarily because of her deliberate politically motivated sabotage. It shows you what lengths these despicable lying right wing politicians will go to to force their selfish ideology on the rest of us, they will sacrifice innocent lives, tantamount to right wing State murder, to convince the world that the NHS is a failed organisation.

[Balthazar]

It shows you what lengths these despicable lying right wing politicians will go to to force their selfish ideology on the rest of us, they will sacrifice innocent lives, tantamount to right wing State murder, to convince the world that the NHS is a failed organisation.

The attacks on the NHS have blown up in their faces in a highly amusing manner. The Department of Health briefed the Press Association on Wednesday. In the briefing document they list the lies one by one, write "Untrue" against each one, before setting out the truth. It's extremely unusual for a government department to intervene in this manner.

The only danger is that the US education system is as bad as US healthcare and idiot red necks believe the lies. But except for sending the hicks back to school what can be done about that?

It's a great debate. The comments sections of US newspapers are brilliant value at the moment, with the likes of Flash and Tantal tying themselves in knots to defend the lies. A favourite claim is that the British have been indoctrinated by their socialist government - Peter Mandelson? - into supporting the NHS.

http://frankowenspaintbrush.files.wo.../mandelson.jpg

* Look into my eyes!! *



NB Under the NHS Sarah Palin would be treated, free of charge, for her metal illness.

[Expounder]

I have a great voice of reason in this debate. However, some people just don't want to hear what I have to say because it challenges their Socialistic mindset.

For instance, I have used my experience of seeing Canadians with socialized medicine flood to America for quality health care but socialists seems to ignore that experience.

Some one's not telling the truth here, I quote Howard Bevan the Great Nephew of Aneurin Bevan founder of the NHS. " I've got a sister and brother-in-law in the US and when they have to go and see a doctor they have to pay big time. Pensioners are running trips from the States to Canada to buy drugs they need to survive, because they are one quarter of the price across the border". Daily Mirror 14.8.09.

What evidence is there of your assertion about the pricing of medical drugs in the US and Canada, and the story of Canadian medical "refugees" crossing the border to buy drugs in the States which are much more expensive in Canada.?

These are both contradicting stories or is this just a general allegation on your part. You can't both be right.

[Balthazar]

Some one's not telling the truth here, I quote Howard Bevan the Great Nephew of Aneurin Bevan founder of the NHS. " I've got a sister and brother-in-law in the US and when they have to go and see a doctor they have to pay big time. Pensioners are running trips from the States to Canada to buy drugs they need to survive, because they are one quarter of the price across the border". Daily Mirror 14.8.09.

What evidence is there of your assertion about the pricing of medical drugs in the US and Canada, and the story of Canadian medical "refugees" crossing the border to buy drugs in the States which are much more expensive in Canada.?

These are both contradicting stories or is this just a general allegation on your part. You can't both be right.

Sorry to say this but I think Flash is telling lies, period. I asked him on another thread to source his claim about an alleged "poll tax" operating in US hospitals whereby you pay extra for, say, a broken arm and that extra charge is used to fund the treatment of a poor person. He wouldn't source it but kept repeating it like a parrot. He's doing the same here.

The US right has been caught spreading stonking porkies about the NHS. Flash is part of that game. The British embassy in Washington has been instructed to counter them. Twitter crashed as thousands of ordinary Brits did the same. The Health Department's issued a point-by-point rebuttal to the Press Association. Cameron's had to email his entire supporter base to tell them he rejects attacks on the NHS emerging from the right of his party in the US. Republican lies were the lead item on the BBC 'Today' programme this morning.

Flash: tell the truth, there's a good chap. It does you and your cause no good to be caught fibbing.

[oldbill]

I know of NO one in Canada that comes to the USA for their medicine I know of many Americans that go to Canada for the medicine. These are people in the NY, NH and Vermont States. Greed by American health insurance Companies and Hospitals is out of control in the USA, this I do not see (greed) in the UK in the medical Industry! Bill