Is this the start of the end for the USA?

[Midas]

From yesterday's New York Times - News Analysis - A Decade of Enormous Deficits May Alter American Politics and Power

Huge Deficits May Alter U.S. Politics and Global Power

WASHINGTON — In a federal budget filled with mind-boggling statistics, two numbers stand out as particularly stunning, for the way they may change American politics and American power.

The first is the projected deficit in the coming year, nearly 11 percent of the country’s entire economic output. That is not unprecedented: During the Civil War, World War I and World War II, the United States ran soaring deficits, but usually with the expectation that they would come back down once peace was restored and war spending abated.

But the second number, buried deeper in the budget’s projections, is the one that really commands attention: By President Obama’s own optimistic projections, American deficits will not return to what are widely considered sustainable levels over the next 10 years. In fact, in 2019 and 2020 — years after Mr. Obama has left the political scene, even if he serves two terms — they start rising again sharply, to more than 5 percent of gross domestic product. His budget draws a picture of a nation that like many American homeowners simply cannot get above water.

For Mr. Obama and his successors, the effect of those projections is clear: Unless miraculous growth, or miraculous political compromises, creates some unforeseen change over the next decade, there is virtually no room for new domestic initiatives for Mr. Obama or his successors. Beyond that lies the possibility that the United States could begin to suffer the same disease that has afflicted Japan over the past decade. As debt grew more rapidly than income, that country’s influence around the world eroded.......

[Barry]

The USA also is becoming quite exposed to military threats.
UPDATE 1-US missile test mimicking Iran strike fails | Reuters
They are building up shipping in the gulf, strengthening land based defences in the area, but once they start the Iran blockade in the straits of Hormuz, anything might happen.
I think the post WW2 power and reign of the USA, the great babylon, is on the wane. It surely cannot be good for anyone.

[DC]

Wonderful, China will have a free hand...

[Tantal]

The USA also is becoming quite exposed to military threats.
I think the post WW2 power and reign of the USA, the great babylon, is on the wane. It surely cannot be good for anyone.

WE aren't exposed to military threats, but our allies that rely on U.S. military protection (namely Taiwan) should be extremely scared. I have no fear of a foreign army putting boots on our shores. This is all part of the "progressive" master plan. Weaken the U.S. both economically and militarily so that their communist dictator friends can have free reign. It's sad really. Most Americans will eventually put up a fight against this, Europeans will welcome their new communist overlords as liberators, bowing at their feet and thanking them for their enslavement.

[Kiwi 1691]

In order to answer the question "is this the start of the end for the USA," it is first necessary to specify, "the end of what?" The end of being the one and only superpower? That's not going to last more than a few decades longer. Even by ten years from now that could well be false. But it's not the end of the USA. I'm guessing the country is still going to exist centuries from now.

[fubar]

I think America has to look closer to home for it's enemy within that is more dangerous than Islam as to offer.

[Don]

I think America has to look closer to home for it's enemy within that is more dangerous than Islam as to offer.

And that more dangerous enemy within would be?

[Kiwi 1691]

And that more dangerous enemy within would be?

Well after Obama won the election, some republicans were heard calling for another American revolution.

[Tantal]

And that more dangerous enemy within would be?

I was thinking Congress and the White House. Muslims, although they can blow up a random plane here or there, don't have the ability to spend future generations into economic bondage to the Chinese government. Our government does......and is.

[Don]

Well after Obama won the election, some republicans were heard calling for another American revolution.

Yeah well when I was a kid someone told me the moon was made of green cheese

[DTE]

WE aren't exposed to military threats, but our allies that rely on U.S. military protection (namely Taiwan) should be extremely scared. I have no fear of a foreign army putting boots on our shores. This is all part of the "progressive" master plan. Weaken the U.S. both economically and militarily so that their communist dictator friends can have free reign. It's sad really. Most Americans will eventually put up a fight against this, Europeans will welcome their new communist overlords as liberators, bowing at their feet and thanking them for their enslavement.

Please someone call me up on this if I'm talking out of my arse, but aren't we reliant on US military protection too? I'm pretty sure although we have our own nuclear 'option' (great term that) we rely on US targeting software to actually fire them. So in effect we are the US's bitch in terms of nuclear as well as pretty much everything else. As for your post Tantal, come on, you really think Obama and co are out to please foreign communist dictators?!

Gees. Do you want a drink with those nuts?

Obama is not a communist. If Bush was still in power when the crisis hit (rather than simply when it was building up) he'd do exactly the same thing in terms of proping up the economy with taxpayer's money. Even if McCain had won(!) he'd have followed the same path as well, just a little more slowly(its his age). Just because he wants to give poor people the right 'not to die of a treatable disease' (the bastard!) doesn't make him a communist.

I'm beginning to think you're one of those cable TV psychics channelling the spirit of Joe McCarthy...

[pauli007001]

Please someone call me up on this if I'm talking out of my arse, but aren't we reliant on US military protection too? I'm pretty sure although we have our own nuclear 'option' (great term that) we rely on US targeting software to actually fire them. So in effect we are the US's bitch in terms of nuclear as well as pretty much everything else. As for your post Tantal, come on, you really think Obama and co are out to please foreign communist dictators?!

Gees. Do you want a drink with those nuts?

Obama is not a communist. If Bush was still in power when the crisis hit (rather than simply when it was building up) he'd do exactly the same thing in terms of proping up the economy with taxpayer's money. Even if McCain had won(!) he'd have followed the same path as well, just a little more slowly(its his age). Just because he wants to give poor people the right 'not to die of a treatable disease' (the bastard!) doesn't make him a communist.

I'm beginning to think you're one of those cable TV psychics channelling the spirit of Joe McCarthy...

No one dies of a treatable disease in the USA, i have showed this claim to be a lie on scores of occasions, in the UK NHS people die fron treatable diseases/ conditions on a daily basis but here innthe US it never happens exept by choice on the patients part.

[Midas]

No one dies of a treatable disease in the USA, i have showed this claim to be a lie on scores of occasions, in the UK NHS people die fron treatable diseases/ conditions on a daily basis but here innthe US it never happens exept by choice on the patients part.

Please keep to the topic under discussion Pauli. We already have threads dealing with US and UK health-care. If you've anything further to add, please do it there.

[pauli007001]

Please keep to the topic under discussion Pauli. We already have threads dealing with US and UK health-care. If you've anything further to add, please do it there.

You attack me but i was responding to a specific false claim by DTE, this is typical victimisation, DTE can post off topic and all is well, i respond to that post and you are all over me with warnings and Infractions.

[DTE]

You attack me but i was responding to a specific false claim by DTE, this is typical victimisation, DTE can post off topic and all is well, i respond to that post and you are all over me with warnings and Infractions.

And I was just responding to a point made by Tantal! Wow, I guess not all right-wingers believe in soft touch regulation eh Midas?

[Tantal]

As for your post Tantal, come on, you really think Obama and co are out to please foreign communist dictators?!

Yes. Some of his closest advisors (Van Jones, Anita Dunn, Andy Stern) are either avowed communists or can be heard quoting directly from Marx. Anita Dunn went as far as to say that one of her favorite political philosophers was Chairman Mao. Obama is either completely inept in his screening of advisors and aides, or he has intentionally surrounded himself with revolutionary leftists. I'm betting on the latter.

Gees. Do you want a drink with those nuts?

Why don't you have a drink with THESE nuts!

Obama is not a communist.

I beg to differ. Reagan stood up to the Soviet Union and called them the Evil Empire, which they were. Our jug-eared Kenyan won't so much as utter a negative word about the Chinese (who now own us), Chavez (that sabre-rattling turd that desperately needs to wander in front of a stray bullet), or Mugabe (who took a once-prosperous net exporter of food to having his citizens eating cow dung for sustenance. 'Racial and economic justice' may feel good, but it isn't particularly nutritious. Enjoy your **** sammiches Zimbabwe.)

If Bush was still in power when the crisis hit (rather than simply when it was building up) he'd do exactly the same thing in terms of proping up the economy with taxpayer's money.

Oh, he did......and I was equally opposed to it when he did it too.

Even if McCain had won(!) he'd have followed the same path as well, just a little more slowly(its his age).

I'm sure he would, because he is a progressive POS-RINO (Piece of ****-Republican in Name Only)

Just because he wants to give poor people the right 'not to die of a treatable disease' (the bastard!) doesn't make him a communist.

The right 'not to die' on whose dime? Future generations, that's whose. Who will pay for future generations' 'right not to die'? Eventually our house of cards built on a foundation of reckless deficit spending is going to come crashing down. Obama is just following in the footsteps of other revolutionary leftists.........you can't have a new system until you implode the old system. Ours is just about to implode. Remember, your economic future is directly related to ours. If we sink, the suction will bring everybody else down with us, so be careful what you wish for.

I'm beginning to think you're one of those cable TV psychics channelling the spirit of Joe McCarthy...

I'll take that as a compliment. Nothing wrong with McCarthy.

[fubar]

you really think Obama and co are out to please foreign communist dictators?!

No this is more like a power share each having it's own form of communism although china is in love with it's own form of Communist,capitalism but for how long, as the bubble is about to burst and a form of global communism is born.You only have to look around us in the UK, and the power of the Common purpose to realise we now live in a de facto communist country as it is America is in a far more progressive state than us. but were not far behind as we tend to mirror America fall into Social Marxism.

[pauli007001]

And I was just responding to a point made by Tantal! Wow, I guess not all right-wingers believe in soft touch regulation eh Midas?

I responded to your claims about healthcare which for you to post was fine, for me it was off topic and worthy of infractions and bans etc, just the usual double standards, Tantal didnt mention Healthcare, you did and i responded to your claim on Health care.

[DTE]

I responded to your claims about healthcare which for you to post was fine, for me it was off topic and worthy of infractions and bans etc, just the usual double standards, Tantal didnt mention Healthcare, you did and i responded to your claim on Health care.

Well I doubt that if Obama hadn't made healthcare the central policy of his administration Tantal would be calling him a communist, so thats my justification for bringing it up. I think any topic involving current American politics is on topic for a thread titled 'is this the start of the end for the USA' so myself and you are fine mentioning it.

Now as for the topic at hand:

Yes. Some of his closest advisors (Van Jones, Anita Dunn, Andy Stern) are either avowed communists or can be heard quoting directly from Marx. Anita Dunn went as far as to say that one of her favorite political philosophers was Chairman Mao. Obama is either completely inept in his screening of advisors and aides, or he has intentionally surrounded himself with revolutionary leftists. I'm betting on the latter.

I'm betting its actually neither. As one system crumbles the guy in the cockpit gets to choose the new one. Thats democracy for ya

Why don't you have a drink with THESE nuts!

Genius. That is a good comeback

I'm sure he would, because he is a progressive POS-RINO (Piece of ****-Republican in Name Only)The right 'not to die' on whose dime? Future generations, that's whose. Who will pay for future generations' 'right not to die'?

If you think a system should provide basic healthcare for all citizens, does that make you a communist? If it does, then I am a communist.The dire financial situation in your country and mine is down to rampant capitalism, the socialist ideas of Obama are merely a drop in the ocean, and will hardly be the cause of the massive debt suffered by future generations. And who better to pay for the keeping alive of past generations than their kids? After all, if it wasn't for them...

Eventually our house of cards built on a foundation of reckless deficit spending is going to come crashing down. Obama is just following in the footsteps of other revolutionary leftists.........you can't have a new system until you implode the old system. Ours is just about to implode. Remember, your economic future is directly related to ours. If we sink, the suction will bring everybody else down with us, so be careful what you wish for.

The system was ready to implode on its own, and again thats down to free market capitalists effectively buggering the economy at the office party while the other guys sit around watching and taking notes. The massive financial failings of your country and ours are systemic of the way in which we do business, which allows for huge profits for the few and little value for the many. As for the implosion, I agree it is inevitable, as the current system is insustainable, but the last guy at the party doesn't get the blame for the cops showing up. Obama may be seeing you through this mess but the policies of Bush I and Bush II: Bush Harder and Reaganomics got you in it.

I'll take that as a compliment. Nothing wrong with McCarthy.

It wasn't. And McCarthy was a proper nutjob. Good post though Tantal...now good night and good luck

[pauli007001]

My point was that Midas didnt go on the attack against you for being off topic, but he did against me.

However your claim that people are refused care in the USA is incorrect, that never happens, that is Why the policy of Obama to force a socialised system upon the American people has died.The US healthcare system aint broke, so why fix it?

[Midas]

My point was that Midas didnt go on the attack against you for being off topic, but he did against me.

However your claim that people are refused care in the USA is incorrect, that never happens, that is Why the policy of Obama to force a socialised system upon the American people has died.The US healthcare system aint broke, so why fix it?

Pauli, for the second and last time I'm going to ask you to stick to the topic, which is "Is this the start of the end for the USA?" based on the effects of the current economic crisis. It is NOT a discussion on health care, which is what you are trying to turn it into. Yes, DTE did obliquely mention the subject in his post, but only in a very minor way as part of a wider reply; not the same thing at all.

[pauli007001]

Pauli, for the second and last time I'm going to ask you to stick to the topic, which is "Is this the start of the end for the USA?" based on the effects of the current economic crisis. It is NOT a discussion on health care, which is what you are trying to turn it into. Yes, DTE did obliquely mention the subject in his post, but only in a very minor way as part of a wider reply; not the same thing at all.

Yes DTE mentioned it in response to Tantal, tantal didnt introduce HC into the Debate DTE did, i responded to his incorrect claim by saying it didnt happen. My response was in as minor a way as his, he made a point, i corrected it, isnt that what debate is about, or is it allowed to make false statements on US healthcare if no one is allowed to counter it because the topic is not US healthcare specifically?
This is a form of censorship and trying to silence people(or a person based on a personal grudge)!!

[WESTERN RANGER]

The USA is far from finnished,I can well remember the total mess Clinton inherited from GHW Bush.I admit there were not in the Trillion $ Dollar deficet quagmire then.However it was a substansial ammount.Both Reagan and Bush had borrowed
from Japan and Germany to fund their Tax give aways for the richest 20%.This ammounted to the closure of a very very large slice of Americas once mighty manufacturing base.Clinton had turned this 12 year growing deficet into a surplus whithin
his first term.All America needs is the right Man to come along and bring some common sense to a now very very divided polarised Population.

As a small sidebar to this comment,It utterly astonishes me that it's the people who Obama is trying to help the most,IE the rural and the urban poor,who are his greatest opponents.This underclass are in dire need of Government Health Insurance.Also it's these same people who call him a Communist/Socialist etc etc.Surely give the man a chance!!!.There is no need yet to throw up the barricades like Rush Limbaugh and Fox Propaganda would have them do.Is there??.
I once lived and worked in a Socialist Workers Paradise East Germany for 6 Weeks,and let me tell you now,calling Obama a Socialist is really wide of the mark.This man inherited perhaps the most dire Economic situation from his stupid previous
incumbent.Surely the man should be give some time to sort it out,Bush took 8 years driving it there.

[Midas]

The USA is far from finnished,I can well remember the total mess Clinton inherited from GHW Bush.I admit there were not in the Trillion $ Dollar deficet quagmire then.

But isn't that the whole point; today there are the same problems plus the huge deficit. As the original article points out - "By President Obama’s own optimistic projections, American deficits will not return to what are widely considered sustainable levels over the next 10 years. In fact, in 2019 and 2020 — years after Mr. Obama has left the political scene, even if he serves two terms — they start rising again sharply, to more than 5 percent of gross domestic product." - note the words 'optimistic projections', meaning the reality is likely to be much, much worse.

[WESTERN RANGER]

I fully take on board what you are saying.The answer then surely must be that first things first.The United States "must" stop living beyond it's means!!.However the Geo-Political effects of this would be utterly (in my opinnion) devastating for
the West.First and foremost who else would step into Americas Shoes and help protect our interests and our way of life??.The Military ramifications could be too terrible to consider,we have the rise of China.Who apart from North Korea are the
most dreadful of all the Worlds Countries,they have turned their population into Automotom servile serfs,who can not even read about their own history,like in the case of the Tianamen Square massacre.Also India and it's vast population which
is believed will be larger than even Chinas by the year 2020.Then we have the added mischief of the Islamic Fundamentalists who utterly despise us our way of life and even our Christian Religion.The war in Iraq was a mistake I said this from my
earliest postings on this web-site.I knew there were no Weapons of mass destruction,and I am merely a News Hound who had very carefully watched the embargo screw being turned ever tighter on Saddam.So much so they could not even import
Paracetomol.Also the Arab Israeli situation was allowed to fester and poison and do gigantic damage to the United Stated reputation amongst the Arab population,who had to sit back and watch their land being used for Jewish settlements.Also the way Israel treat these people is a utter disgrace and it should have been stopped by America.Bush however only made things much worse.Anyway I must cut this short for now but if America can no longer continue being what she has been
to the World,then all the Western Nations "Must" get together and sort out a way of helping her out.I wish I had a simple easy answer but who has??.