Gun laws, Love 'em or hate 'em?

[Razgriz]

For those of us in the States, gun laws change from state to state, and I would like to know:
1) What laws does you state have
2) Do you agree with the current laws
3) What new laws would you like to see in your state

I'll start:
Texas
1) Must Issue Conceal Carry Permit (as long as no legal reasons to not), Castle Doctrine (you may defend your property/anyone on your property with deadly force (has been extended to vehicals away from home)), No restrictions on buying guns (minus the federal NICS background check).
2) umm, YES
3) No permit open-carry.

[flash]

1) What laws does you state have

Good laws here in Florida. Class III, shall issue CWP, ranges are protected, Castle Doctrine.

2) Do you agree with the current laws

Hell no. There should be very few restrictions on the right to keep and bear arms.

3) What new laws would you like to see in your state

Open carry.

[crazylilting]

What a scary premis for a thread

I guess if everyone had a gun, there would be a lot less knife crime here in the UK.

[flash]

What a scary premis for a thread

I guess if everyone had a gun, there would be a lot less knife crime here in the UK.

Are you like the typical Euro and are scared of firearms?

[Tantal]

Are you like the typical Euro and are scared of firearms?

My guess is yes. My cousins just happen to be in town from England this week. The 14-year old is deathly afraid of firearms. Since England has been largely free of guns for years now, particularly in the cities, he's never seen, held, or shot one; however, that doesn't mean that proper public education brainwashing hasn't worked. Stating his position may have been emasculating for him though. My 10-year old daughter, an avid shooter, laughed at him.

[flash]

My guess is yes. My cousins just happen to be in town from England this week. The 14-year old is deathly afraid of firearms. Since England has been largely free of guns for years now, particularly in the cities, he's never seen, held, or shot one; however, that doesn't mean that proper public education brainwashing hasn't worked. Stating his position may have been emasculating for him though. My 10-year old daughter, an avid shooter, laughed at him.

It is a shame that now the Euros are getting a generation growing up that have no concept of the right to keep and bear arms. I guess that is just where the politicians and the crooks want it to be. They are now the ones with the power. That boy is just one of the sheeple now.

[fubar]

Make sure u keep them u might need them sooner than you think.???

[Midas]

My guess is yes. My cousins just happen to be in town from England this week. The 14-year old is deathly afraid of firearms. Since England has been largely free of guns for years now, particularly in the cities, he's never seen, held, or shot one; however, that doesn't mean that proper public education brainwashing hasn't worked. Stating his position may have been emasculating for him though. My 10-year old daughter, an avid shooter, laughed at him.

You can't compare the situation with regard to guns in the US to that in the UK, either historically or culturally, it's like trying to compare chalk and cheese.

[flash]

You can't compare the situation with regard to guns in the US to that in the UK, either historically or culturally, it's like trying to compare chalk and cheese.

Our Constitution says that that there are unalieable rights endowed by the Creator. The right to keep and bear arms is one of them. The concept of that freedom applies to all men, not just Americans.

[crazylilting]

The creator has endowed the right to bear arms? Did i read that right?

Our Constitution says that that there are unalieable rights endowed by the Creator.

Lets put it this way. If it got that bad out there that i'd need to have a gun or shoot someone for my own survival, i'd say it isn't a world worth living in. Shoot me and give me peace is all i can say is if it got that bad. I am not afraid of guns. I lived in Canada for 30 years. While i lived in prince george bc it was still legal to have your rifle in your vehicle. There were plenty of dangers that required a fire arm there. Here in the Uk there are non, so what is the point to owning a gun? There are no bears, mountain lions, lynx, wolves,or other predators that one might need to shoot.

One could argue that one would need to protect themselves from other people, but if it got that bad would you want to be around for it?

[Midas]

One could argue that one would need to protect themselves from other people, but if it got that bad would you want to be around for it?

That's the basis for not being able to compare the situation in the US with that in the UK. In the former, the ownership of carrying of guns has been around ever since the US was first colonised, and gun crime is endemic, so their use for personal defence is common sense. However to imply that their introduction for use for defence in a country which doesn't have the same situation is fallacious and would inevitably lead to an escalation of their use on both sides of the law; as I've said before, you cannot compare either the situation or people's attitudes in the US to those here in the UK.

No-one wants an escalation of gun crime, which is thankfully very low here, which is why virtually all British people are against their use. That's not to say that we have an aversion for guns per se, there were around 600,000 licenses covering some 1.4 million shotguns and around 140,000 firearms certificates covering about 440,00 rifles as of March 2009 (Home Office statistics), however it's very much a case of the overwhelming majority of people using the weapons in the context for which they are intended, hunting and sports.

[crazylilting]

Our Constitution says that that there are unalieable rights endowed by the Creator.

I can't find this in the constitution, where did you read this flash? The bible?

[DaveUK]

Our Constitution says that that there are unalieable rights endowed by the Creator. The right to keep and bear arms is one of them. The concept of that freedom applies to all men, not just Americans.

There's a phrase here in the UK that's quite commonly used to describe nonsense it goes "what a load of bollox". Where in the Bible does it say that your imaginary creator gives you the right to bare and keep arms?
Why do you want them? What do you need them for? Who are you expecting, "zee Germans"?
Here in the UK, the vast majority of people do not wish to own a fire arm, and do not want anyone else to own one either. There are rural aplications for shot guns, and there are sporting gun clubs. But there is no need for the vast majorty of people to own a firearm in their home.
Gun crime is grossly over blown by the press in this country. The vast majority of people in this country will never see a firearm during their life time. They've no need to.
You'd be very hard pushed to find people in this country that have any desire to own firearms, less still that would claim it as some God given right.

Are you like the typical Euro and are scared of firearms?

What a facile remark. Fear doesn't come into it, we simply don't need them. Our society works just fine without them, and without the assumption that we have a right to own them.
The part of your constitution that states that you have a right to bare arms was written at a time when your country was in a state of revolution, of armed struggle, and when settlers repeatedly came under attack from indiginous tribes, land and live stock thieves etc.
Apart from sport, the only use of firearms in your country is committing crime or in deffense of it. As for hunting, you're the only country I know that goes hunting, and then buys steak from quiki mart.
It seems to me that a society that cannot function without firearms is a society based on fear.

[Don]

I can't find this in the constitution, where did you read this flash? The bible?

Actually it's the Declaration of Independence that says this, not the Constitution. What it says is; "We hold these truths to be self evident, that all men are created equal and endowed by their Creator with certain unalienable rights, that among these are life, liberty and the pursuit of happiness."

The 2nd Amendment, part of The Bill of Rights, to the Constitution, guarantees us the right to keep and bear arms.

[crazylilting]

Actually it's the Declaration of Independence that says this, not the Constitution. What it says is; "We hold these truths to be self evident, that all men are created equal and endowed by their Creator with certain unalienable rights, that among these are life, liberty and the pursuit of happiness."

The 2nd Amendment, part of The Bill of Rights, to the Constitution, guarantees us the right to keep and bear arms.

Yes i noticed that as well. So as we see Flash has been editing the constitution to read as he wants it to read. Yawn... But as we know i don't believe in bearing arms so i can't talk about it

[Scooter]

I wonder what mr NAZI RACIST **** 007 would think of this thread?

[flash]

The creator has endowed the right to bear arms? Did i read that right?

Lets put it this way. If it got that bad out there that i'd need to have a gun or shoot someone for my own survival, i'd say it isn't a world worth living in. Shoot me and give me peace is all i can say is if it got that bad. I am not afraid of guns. I lived in Canada for 30 years. While i lived in prince george bc it was still legal to have your rifle in your vehicle. There were plenty of dangers that required a fire arm there. Here in the Uk there are non, so what is the point to owning a gun? There are no bears, mountain lions, lynx, wolves,or other predators that one might need to shoot.

One could argue that one would need to protect themselves from other people, but if it got that bad would you want to be around for it?

Sounds like you are the perfect victim. You have no intentions of defending yourself or your family and you are going to let the bad the bad guy do whatever he wants because you don’t want to hurt him.

Have you ever posed for the cover of a magazine called Victim Monthly?

[flash]

Actually it's the Declaration of Independence that says this, not the Constitution. What it says is; "We hold these truths to be self evident, that all men are created equal and endowed by their Creator with certain unalienable rights, that among these are life, liberty and the pursuit of happiness."

The 2nd Amendment, part of The Bill of Rights, to the Constitution, guarantees us the right to keep and bear arms.

You are right, it is in the Declaration but the Bill of Rights, including the right to keep and bear arms, is derive from the concept of basic Creator endowed human rights.

Maybe if you don't believe in God then you are not endowed with those rights.

[flash]

There's a phrase here in the UK that's quite commonly used to describe nonsense it goes "what a load of bollox". Where in the Bible does it say that your imaginary creator gives you the right to bare and keep arms?

Why are you asking me? I didn’t coin that phase. The men that kicked the ass of the British came up with it. Go ask them.

Why do you want them? What do you need them for? Who are you expecting, "zee Germans"?

I am sorry but you Brits don’t get to question Americans on the right to keep and bear arms. You tried to take our arms away from us once before and you got your ass kicked for it. You lost the right to voice an opinion on the subject. The operative word is lost.

Here in the UK, the vast majority of people do not wish to own a fire arm, and do not want anyone else to own one either. There are rural aplications for shot guns, and there are sporting gun clubs. But there is no need for the vast majorty of people to own a firearm in their home.

Your government doesn’t trust its citizens to have firearms just like most totalitarian societies in history.

Gun crime is grossly over blown by the press in this country. The vast majority of people in this country will never see a firearm during their life time. They've no need to.

You'd be very hard pushed to find people in this country that have any desire to own firearms, less still that would claim it as some God given right.

It sounds like you are the only one that is too chicken**** to own a firearm.

There are about 500 million firearms in the worlds including all the militaries. I live in a country where 350 million of them are in the hands of civilians and I have never personally seen a crime with a firearm. Nor have I ever met a person that has told me directly that they have witnessed a crime with a firearm. I read about it in the newspaper from time to time but it is not a part of my life. I own about 35 weapons, most of them assault weapons, and have never used one in a crime. What is to you?

The part of your constitution that states that you have a right to bare arms was written at a time when your country was in a state of revolution, of armed struggle, and when settlers repeatedly came under attack from indiginous tribes, land and live stock thieves etc.

Apart from sport, the only use of firearms in your country is committing crime or in deffense of it. As for hunting, you're the only country I know that goes hunting, and then buys steak from quiki mart.
It seems to me that a society that cannot function without firearms is a society based on fear.

Typical of a Euro you have no idea why our Founding Fathers established the right to keep and bear arms. It is not about hunting and it is not about sports and it is even not about self defense. It is about the people having enough strength to hold the government accountable. After living under the British government our Founding fathers realized that you can’t trust any government.

Tomas Jefferson said it best:
"God forbid we should ever be twenty years without such a rebellion.
The people cannot be all, and always, well informed. The part which is
wrong will be discontented, in proportion to the importance of the facts
they misconceive. If they remain quiet under such misconceptions,
it is lethargy, the forerunner of death to the public liberty. ...
And what country can preserve its liberties, if its rulers are not
warned from time to time, that this people preserve the spirit of
resistance? Let them take arms. The remedy is to set them right as
to the facts, pardon and pacify them. What signify a few lives lost
in a century or two? The tree of liberty must be refreshed from
time to time, with the blood of patriots and tyrants.
It is its natural manure."

[coalition]

Many years ago I had occassion to take to task an, American - a sort of contradiction in terms, War Historian, who made the same claims about England losing Your supposed war of Independance. Well, if half a loaf, we still have the other halve e.g. Canada: and if we had not been slightly busy with your then friendly little short-arsed wanna be dictator, Napoleon we might have averted an infliction upon The Native Americans and, latterly, the rest of the World, of a strutting little peahen of an Heinze 57 nation.

[flash]

Many years ago I had occassion to take to task an, American - a sort of contradiction in terms, War Historian, who made the same claims about England losing Your supposed war of Independance. Well, if half a loaf, we still have the other halve e.g. Canada: and if we had not been slightly busy with your then friendly little short-arsed wanna be dictator, Napoleon we might have averted an infliction upon The Native Americans and, latterly, the rest of the World, of a strutting little peahen of an Heinze 57 nation.

The English ego will not allow the possibility that the greatest military in the world got their ass kicked by a bunch of average citizens but it happen. Average citizens that resisted the government taking away the right to keep and bear arms. The first battle of the Revolutionary War was when the British Troops marched to Concord and Lexington to take away the arms of the citizens. It was one of the worst days in British military history. Those Redcoat boys got their asses kicked really bad.

All the colonies that revolted won.

The English had inflicted a tremendous amount of damage to the Native Americans long before Napoleon was even born and they brought slavery to the colonies so there is no high ground here. I suspect that if the King had won the war and divided up the country among his Lords the Native Americans would have continued to have suffered the same fate in America as the Aborigines suffered under the British in Australia.

[ryoden]

The English ego will not allow the possibility that the greatest military in the world got their ass kicked by a bunch of average citizens but it happen. Average citizens that resisted the government taking away the right to keep and bear arms. The first battle of the Revolutionary War was when the British Troops marched to Concord and Lexington to take away the arms of the citizens. It was one of the worst days in British military history. Those Redcoat boys got their asses kicked really bad.

All the colonies that revolted won.

It was not so much that we got our asses kicked by "average citizens" as a number of other reasons the war was lost.

1: The crown's failure to capitalize on loyalist support. I believe that approximately 1/3 of colonials were happy under UK governance, and after the war they had their land confiscated and left the country (I believe).
2: Fighting a war on unknown terrain was a significant factor.
3: Poor communication between commands and jealousy within the overall command structure.
4: Fighting a war with France at the same time. (as one of my fav characters from B5 would say - "Only an idiot would fight a war on two fronts. Only the heir to the throne of the Kingdom of Idiots would fight a war on twelve fronts.")

The British were better equipped and better supplied. In some cases, their numbers were superior. Yet they lacked knowledge of the land – the vastness of colonial America, and their commanders frequently failed to coordinate operational goals and aims.


They were fighting a determined group that added to its numbers as British indifferences to local populations became apparent. Parliamentary leaders as well as King George III refused any compromises. For these reasons, the British lost the American War for Independence.


With today's modern military if the government wanted to cull the population then they could do so with immpunity regardless of the number of automatic rifles you have stashed under the bed. Not that I expect it would ever happen as why bother openly confronting your public when you can tax them to death instead.

[flash]

It was not so much that we got our asses kicked by "average citizens" as a number of other reasons the war was lost.

1: The crown's failure to capitalize on loyalist support. I believe that approximately 1/3 of colonials were happy under UK governance, and after the war they had their land confiscated and left the country (I believe).
2: Fighting a war on unknown terrain was a significant factor.
3: Poor communication between commands and jealousy within the overall command structure.
4: Fighting a war with France at the same time. (as one of my fav characters from B5 would say - "Only an idiot would fight a war on two fronts. Only the heir to the throne of the Kingdom of Idiots would fight a war on twelve fronts.")

The British were better equipped and better supplied. In some cases, their numbers were superior. Yet they lacked knowledge of the land – the vastness of colonial America, and their commanders frequently failed to coordinate operational goals and aims.


They were fighting a determined group that added to its numbers as British indifferences to local populations became apparent. Parliamentary leaders as well as King George III refused any compromises. For these reasons, the British lost the American War for Independence.


With today's modern military if the government wanted to cull the population then they could do so with immpunity regardless of the number of automatic rifles you have stashed under the bed. Not that I expect it would ever happen as why bother openly confronting your public when you can tax them to death instead.

They got their asses beat because they got their asses beat. Almost every war would have had a different outcome in retrospect had things been done differently. The US turned the war around at the Battle of Cowpens. The British lost the war in the South because they did not win the hearts and the minds of the locals. The Americans in the South were inclined to support the Crown but the British, like they did in many of the other places around the world, pissed off the locals with their brutality and their arrogance.

[DaveUK]

Why are you asking me? I didn’t coin that phase. The men that kicked the ass of the British came up with it. Go ask them.



I am sorry but you Brits don’t get to question Americans on the right to keep and bear arms. You tried to take our arms away from us once before and you got your ass kicked for it. You lost the right to voice an opinion on the subject. The operative word is lost.



Your government doesn’t trust its citizens to have firearms just like most totalitarian societies in history.





It sounds like you are the only one that is too chicken**** to own a firearm.

There are about 500 million firearms in the worlds including all the militaries. I live in a country where 350 million of them are in the hands of civilians and I have never personally seen a crime with a firearm. Nor have I ever met a person that has told me directly that they have witnessed a crime with a firearm. I read about it in the newspaper from time to time but it is not a part of my life. I own about 35 weapons, most of them assault weapons, and have never used one in a crime. What is to you?
Typical of a Euro you have no idea why our Founding Fathers established the right to keep and bear arms. It is not about hunting and it is not about sports and it is even not about self defense. It is about the people having enough strength to hold the government accountable. After living under the British government our Founding fathers realized that you can’t trust any government.

I'm asking you because you quoted incorrectly. And seeing as you make claims to having theological understanding, I'd like you to point out to me where it says in the Bible that Americans have the right to bare arms?

I have the right to question anyone about anything. I do not have the right to expect an answer, and in your case I've come to expect anything but a straight or meaningful answer about anything.
The people you claim that kicked our asses were actually British settlers and colonists, many of them kicked out of Britain for their extremist puritanical reigious beliefs. The only "Americans" at that time were indiginous native Americans.

It has nothing to do with our government. Anyone with a clean criminal and mental health record can get a license and own a shot gun. The overwhelmng vast majority of British citizens choose not to own one, we have no need for them.
Britain, a totalitarian state? How silly. In actual fact you'll find that most totalitarian states in history are rife with fire arms and other weaponry.

It sounds like you are the only one that is too chicken**** to own a firearm.

There are about 500 million firearms in the worlds including all the militaries. I live in a country where 350 million of them are in the hands of civilians and I have never personally seen a crime with a firearm. Nor have I ever met a person that has told me directly that they have witnessed a crime with a firearm. I read about it in the newspaper from time to time but it is not a part of my life.

No not at all. I don't need one, have no desire to own one, I have better things to spend my money on, like the vast majority of rational British citizens.
On an anual average basis, the state of Florida alone has more shooting related injuries and fatalities than the rest of western Europe combined. The vast majority of these shooting incidents are related to crime. Thats a population of 16 million shooting more people a year than 400 million. I think it's fair to say you have a fire arm problem.

I never said it was anything to do with hunting or sport. You no longer hold your government to account with guns, you have elections. Any group of people that claims the right to hold their democratically elected government to account at gun point would rightly be called terrorists.

I own about 35 weapons, most of them assault weapons, and have never used one in a crime. What is to you?

It's nothing to me seeing as you live in Florida. However, I would be deeply concerned if a seperatist, racist, religious zealot biggot lived in my country and owned even one fire arm, let alone 35.

BTW, nice attempt at history revision, but the vast majority of the genocide against indiginous Americans took place after 1776 and was greater than the Nazi holocaust.
Why would you mention slavery? Britain abolished it in 1833, and then those "dirty yankees" that you hate so much followed in 1865, bitterly and violently opposed by the majority of slave holders in the south. You love to dig holes for yourself dont you.

[flash]

Why would you mention slavery? Britain abolished it in 1833, .

Actually all they did was abolish slave trade on your little island in 1807 but kept it other places in the world until 1833 so that the Lords wouldn’t lose too much money. That is great moral clarity, isn’t it? On another thread I posted the references. Go learn your own history. By the way, the largest groups of Revolutionary era Loyalist Americans were in the slave owing regions of the US.

One of the worst genocides in history was against the Aborigines in Australia and I wont even mentioned what you turkeys did in South Africa. The British in Canada did the same to the Canadian Indians that was done further south so you have no moral ground at all.


Talking about how the Brits brought slavery to the New World is interesting but does nothing to explain the stupidly of the people in the UK to give up the right to keep arms for the false security of hoping the government and the crooks won’t hurt them.


Without arms the British people are nothing more than simple subjects. They will never be free unless they have the ability to protect themselves and hold the tyrants (elected or not) accountable.


It must really suck to be a pathetic little wimp that is afraid of firearms.

[crazylilting]

Actually all they did was abolish slave trade on your little island in 1807 but kept it other places in the world until 1833 so that the Lords wouldn’t lose too much money. That is great moral clarity, isn’t it? On another thread I posted the references. Go learn your own history. By the way, the largest groups of Revolutionary era Loyalist Americans were in the slave owing regions of the US.

One of the worst genocides in history was against the Aborigines in Australia and I wont even mentioned what you turkeys did in South Africa. The British in Canada did the same to the Canadian Indians that was done further south so you have no moral ground at all.


Talking about how the Brits brought slavery to the New World is interesting but does nothing to explain the stupidly of the people in the UK to give up the right to keep arms for the false security of hoping the government and the crooks won’t hurt them.


Without arms the British people are nothing more than simple subjects. They will never be free unless they have the ability to protect themselves and hold the tyrants (elected or not) accountable.


It must really suck to be a pathetic little wimp that is afraid of firearms.

Ahhh words of a true Christian. Can i get a hellaluya?

[coalition]

Ignorance is a state of mind and this is more profoundly found in religious cults. The Spanish, imported from the Middle East, slavery and other vile religious practices of which Christianity was the more vile. In yer liddle ole Florida pardner, slavery was endemic, and not forgetting that we had more than a taste of it ourselves under the Romans and latterly the Normans, was One particular reason why we found it repugnant. Slavery is another vile import by the Middle Eastern Catholic Church, which they, with their usual low cunning,use to smear us with.
As to afraid of Firearms ........... one word 'Bisley', We lick your liddle ar..es of, every year. Youse doan't know nuthing about history.

[DaveUK]

Actually all they did was abolish slave trade on your little island in 1807 but kept it other places in the world until 1833 so that the Lords wouldn’t lose too much money. That is great moral clarity, isn’t it? On another thread I posted the references. Go learn your own history. By the way, the largest groups of Revolutionary era Loyalist Americans were in the slave owing regions of the US.

One of the worst genocides in history was against the Aborigines in Australia and I wont even mentioned what you turkeys did in South Africa. The British in Canada did the same to the Canadian Indians that was done further south so you have no moral ground at all.


Talking about how the Brits brought slavery to the New World is interesting but does nothing to explain the stupidly of the people in the UK to give up the right to keep arms for the false security of hoping the government and the crooks won’t hurt them.


Without arms the British people are nothing more than simple subjects. They will never be free unless they have the ability to protect themselves and hold the tyrants (elected or not) accountable.


It must really suck to be a pathetic little wimp that is afraid of firearms.

What an odius little man you are.
Spin it how you like, it's still the case that Britain abolished slavery in 1833, and hose "filthy yankees" that you despise so much followed later, while you in the south tried desperately to hold on to it. You were still lynching African/Americans as late as the 1960's.
Who are you to tell anyone to go and learn history? You deny most of history, and believe in bronze aged myths that have no empirical evidence that they ever took place, or that the people mentioned in them ever existed.
Perhaps if you studdied your own history during the 20th century, you wouldn't be so quick to accuse anyone of genocide. The US has redifined the meaning of it, responsible either directly or indirectly through the support of rogue regimes for more deaths of inocent civilians than the inquisition and holocaust combined.

Without arms the British people are nothing more than simple subjects. They will never be free unless they have the ability to protect themselves and hold the tyrants (elected or not) accountable.

One has to wonder about the sanity of someone that would come out with a statement like this. What tyrants would you be talking about? We have a lot of would be tyrants in this country, most of them religious nut jobs, usually with either fascist or republican political ideals. Thankfully most of them are safely locked away in prison.
Threatening our politicians with being shot is the language of assassins and terrorists. Such people have no place in a democratic civilized society. It's 2010 flash, not 1810. Do you take your assault weapons to church flash? Someone might try and get you, you should make sure you're armed.

[Midas]

It must really suck to be a pathetic little wimp that is afraid of firearms.

What a narrow minded, patronising and offensive remark!

[coalition]

What an odius little man you are.
Spin it how you like, it's still the case that Britain abolished slavery in 1833, and hose "filthy yankees" that you despise so much followed later, while you in the south tried desperately to hold on to it. You were still lynching African/Americans as late as the 1960's.
Who are you to tell anyone to go and learn history? You deny most of history, and believe in bronze aged myths that have no empirical evidence that they ever took place, or that the people mentioned in them ever existed.
Perhaps if you studdied your own history during the 20th century, you wouldn't be so quick to accuse anyone of genocide. The US has redifined the meaning of it, responsible either directly or indirectly through the support of rogue regimes for more deaths of inocent civilians than the inquisition and holocaust combined.



One has to wonder about the sanity of someone that would come out with a statement like this. What tyrants would you be talking about? We have a lot of would be tyrants in this country, most of them religious nut jobs, usually with either fascist or republican political ideals. Thankfully most of them are safely locked away in prison.
Threatening our politicians with being shot is the language of assassins and terrorists. Such people have no place in a democratic civilized society. It's 2010 flash, not 1810. Do you take your assault weapons to church flash? Someone might try and get you, you should make sure you're armed.

UK "FASCISTS 'SAFELY' LOCKED UP" good grief, DIRT St SW1 is swarming with them, even Cleggie had an 'Ephiany' during the general elections and became a tory fascist. I agree they should be locked - up but that usually follows after they have destroyed millions of peoples hopes and aspirations. Just wait a minute!

[flash]

What a narrow minded, patronising and offensive remark!

Well, you know when you have a thread where I am called (a) "seperatist, racist, religious zealot biggot" (Dave’s misspelling not mine) it will probably degrade even more. I know you try to be somewhat even handed but I guess you are so pissed at me for exposing you on the atheist thread that you forgot it this time. I understand and forgive you for not being consistent.

Actually it is pathetic that you Euros are afraid of firearms and that you have mostly given up your right to keep and bear arms in your false expectation of security. It does lend itself to a wimp mentality.

Americans have a stereotype of Europeans. You are all a bunch of limp wristed wimp socialists. Now you and I both know that it is not true but Dave seems to fit that stereotype very well based upon comments he has made.

It is amazing to me that you Brits would even have the balls to question an American’s right to keep and bear arms seeing that you lost a war trying to take the arms away from us and you voluntarily gave them up in your own country.

You think you are safer without having the right or means to protect yourself and you may love your government so much you don’t think you will ever have to teach them a lesson but I think you are misguided and very stupid. You have been lulled into a sheep’s mentality and you don’t even know it. It is pathetic and you (collectively) are wimps for letting it happen.

[coalition]

Well, you know when you have a thread where I am called (a) "seperatist, racist, religious zealot biggot" (Dave’s misspelling not mine) it will probably degrade even more. I know you try to be somewhat even handed but I guess you are so pissed at me for exposing you on the atheist thread that you forgot it this time. I understand and forgive you for not being consistent.

Actually it is pathetic that you Euros are afraid of firearms and that you have mostly given up your right to keep and bear arms in your false expectation of security. It does lend itself to a wimp mentality.

Americans have a stereotype of Europeans. You are all a bunch of limp wristed wimp socialists. Now you and I both know that it is not true but Dave seems to fit that stereotype very well based upon comments he has made.

It is amazing to me that you Brits would even have the balls to question an American’s right to keep and bear arms seeing that you lost a war trying to take the arms away from us and you voluntarily gave them up in your own country.

You think you are safer without having the right or means to protect yourself and you may love your government so much you don’t think you will ever have to teach them a lesson but I think you are misguided and very stupid. You have been lulled into a sheep’s mentality and you don’t even know it. It is pathetic and you (collectively) are wimps for letting it happen.

Yes, I got that impression when I had to teach manners to a pair of your marines at Tripoli camp in 1972; my BRGen. assured me they were well and truly re - civilised. Do you know any others who are backsliding in their due respect for the UK Military, I'am positive my successors are in a tutorial mood.

[flash]

One has to wonder about the sanity of someone that would come out with a statement like this.


.

Being a European you have no concept of the idea of the people holding the government accountable. You have a socialist’s mentality and as long as the government throws you a few crumbs now and then you are happy. You don’t care how many right you have to give up, do you?

Here is a quote from one of our Founding Fathers that addresses the point I made. You may think George Mason “insane” but he was one of the brilliant minds of the Revolution.

[W]hen the resolution of enslaving America was formed in Great Britain, the British Parliament was advised by an artful man, who was governor of Pennsylvania, to disarm the people; that it was the best and most effectual way to enslave them; but that they should not do it openly, but weaken them, and let them sink gradually...I ask, who are the militia? They consist of now of the whole people, except a few public officers. But I cannot say who will be the militia of the future day. If that paper on the table gets no alteration, the militia of the future day may not consist of all classes, high and low, and rich and poor...
---George Mason

You are being enslaved by your government now but you are too dumb to know it. You have given up your ability to hold your government accountable and you have given up the ability to protect yourself. The ballot box won’t keep the tyrants away no more than a lock on the door will keep the crooks out of your home. Our Founding Fathers understood that concept very well.

Here is a modern quote that addresses my point:af

"The tank, the B-52, the fighter-bomber, the state controlled police and the military are the weapons on dictatorship. The rifle is the weapon on democracy... If guns are outlawed, only the government will have guns. Only the police, the secret police, the military, the hired servants of our rulers. Only the government - and a few outlaws. I intend to be among the outlaws."
--- Edward Abbey

[DaveUK]

Well, you know when you have a thread where I am called (a) "seperatist, racist, religious zealot biggot" (Dave’s misspelling not mine) it will probably degrade even more. I know you try to be somewhat even handed but I guess you are so pissed at me for exposing you on the atheist thread that you forgot it this time. I understand and forgive you for not being consistent.

Actually it is pathetic that you Euros are afraid of firearms and that you have mostly given up your right to keep and bear arms in your false expectation of security. It does lend itself to a wimp mentality.

Americans have a stereotype of Europeans. You are all a bunch of limp wristed wimp socialists. Now you and I both know that it is not true but Dave seems to fit that stereotype very well based upon comments he has made.

It is amazing to me that you Brits would even have the balls to question an American’s right to keep and bear arms seeing that you lost a war trying to take the arms away from us and you voluntarily gave them up in your own country.

You think you are safer without having the right or means to protect yourself and you may love your government so much you don’t think you will ever have to teach them a lesson but I think you are misguided and very stupid. You have been lulled into a sheep’s mentality and you don’t even know it. It is pathetic and you (collectively) are wimps for letting it happen.

Every single word of this stupid rant marks you out as everything I said you are, a racist seperatist religious zealot bigot (did I spell it right this time?).
With the clap trap you've posted about your religious beliefs, the idiotic nonsense you believe about the universe etc, your hatred of "filthy yankees", "Euros", and all your other bigoted remarks about different groups of people, is there any other way to describe you?

Americans have a stereotype of Europeans.

Oh really? You claim the right and authority to speak for your whole nation now do you? I think this applies to a minority of small minded people like you.
Are you aware that you are fullfilling every single comedic stereotype that peoeple form about red neck Americans?

[coalition]

You have the temerity to quote this when you were the slaves of an ultra Fascist President, sans a brain cell and any courage to even live his own life without needing Evengelical pastors; a presidency which allowed your financial filth to contaminate the civilised world with toxic products, a president who ran away and hid in the deepest hole in America for 3 days during the 9/11 attacks. Where was your great Rifle Association then, I expect down their own particular holes.
Your lot always run, as only a cowardly fascist will destroy a civilisation for his own gain. Even your gangsters love your country but they are well aware that your politicians only want "payoffs" and all they ever do is rob you blind.

To most countries your Government was just a poisionous dwarf - it may well be that Mr. Obama can do something to lift your stinking reputation in the world and, you should get on your knees and hope he can because you really do not have any goodwill left in the rest of the World.

[DaveUK]

Being a European you have no concept of the idea of the people holding the government accountable. You have a socialist’s mentality and as long as the government throws you a few crumbs now and then you are happy. You don’t care how many right you have to give up, do you?

Here is a quote from one of our Founding Fathers that addresses the point I made. You may think George Mason “insane” but he was one of the brilliant minds of the Revolution.

[W]hen the resolution of enslaving America was formed in Great Britain, the British Parliament was advised by an artful man, who was governor of Pennsylvania, to disarm the people; that it was the best and most effectual way to enslave them; but that they should not do it openly, but weaken them, and let them sink gradually...I ask, who are the militia? They consist of now of the whole people, except a few public officers. But I cannot say who will be the militia of the future day. If that paper on the table gets no alteration, the militia of the future day may not consist of all classes, high and low, and rich and poor...
---George Mason

You are being enslaved by your government now but you are too dumb to know it. You have given up your ability to hold your government accountable and you have given up the ability to protect yourself. The ballot box won’t keep the tyrants away no more than a lock on the door will keep the crooks out of your home. Our Founding Fathers understood that concept very well.

Here is a modern quote that addresses my point:af

"The tank, the B-52, the fighter-bomber, the state controlled police and the military are the weapons on dictatorship. The rifle is the weapon on democracy... If guns are outlawed, only the government will have guns. Only the police, the secret police, the military, the hired servants of our rulers. Only the government - and a few outlaws. I intend to be among the outlaws."
--- Edward Abbey

300 year old revolutionary rhetoric might have been relevant then, it's not now. Just go out on the street with your 35 assault weapons and hold your politicians accountable with them, and see how long it takes for the police employed by those democratically elected politicians to take you down where you stand.
And if you visit Britain anytime, I'll meet you off the plane and I'll be more than happy to dispell your stereotypical notion of us brits. I worked in numerous establishments in the middlands for ten years removing unsavory mindless thugs like you from the premises.

And if you want to talk about dictatoship and the removal of rights, shall we have a discussion about the government that rigged the 2000 US election? My guess is that you supported them, which makes you far more liberal than anyone in the UK could ever be. You see, you allowed a 3rd rate moronic, mentally deffective idiot to run your county for eight years. Here in the UK, he wouldn't have been allowed to be in charge of crossing children or sweeping roads.
Bush and his administration trashed your constitutional rights over and over again.

[flash]

You have the temerity to quote this when you were the slaves of an ultra Fascist President, sans a brain cell and any courage to even live his own life without needing Evengelical pastors; a presidency which allowed your financial filth to contaminate the civilised world with toxic products, a president who ran away and hid in the deepest hole in America for 3 days during the 9/11 attacks. Where was your great Rifle Association then, I expect down their own particular holes.
Your lot always run, as only a cowardly fascist will destroy a civilisation for his own gain. Even your gangsters love your country but they are well aware that your politicians only want "payoffs" and all they ever do is rob you blind.

To most countries your Government was just a poisionous dwarf - it may well be that Mr. Obama can do something to lift your stinking reputation in the world and, you should get on your knees and hope he can because you really do not have any goodwill left in the rest of the World.

You are not prone to hyperbole, are you?

If you are suggesting that this moron Obama is going to be the savior of America then you one dumb ass that knows nothing about American politics. He has already done a lot of damage to the US by raiding the US Treasury and redistributing the money to his sleazy special interest groups like the environmental wackos, the welfare queens and the filthy unions.

If you were referring to George Bush in the past tense then your comments are wasted on me. I voted for Bush twice because he was the lesser of two evils between that genius Gore and that traitor Kerry. However, he was just another Liberal and did too many things I didn’t like such as increase the size of the government, spent more money than he took in, refused to seal the border and participated in foreign interventionism when it didn’t affect the security of his own country. You know what I mean don’t you? Exactly the same thing your government did at the same time and is continuing to do.

The right to keep and bear arms should be considered a universal Creator endowed right like that of free speech. Even though it is in the US Bill of Rights a poor socialist peasant living in the slums of Europe being forced to pay a 20% VAT should be afforded the same basic human right defend themselves and hold their government accountable for abuse.

[flash]

300 year old revolutionary rhetoric might have been relevant then, it's not now. Just go out on the street with your 35 assault weapons and hold your politicians accountable with them, and see how long it takes for the police employed by those democratically elected politicians to take you down where you stand.
And if you visit Britain anytime, I'll meet you off the plane and I'll be more than happy to dispell your stereotypical notion of us brits. I worked in numerous establishments in the middlands for ten years removing unsavory mindless thugs like you from the premises.

And if you want to talk about dictatoship and the removal of rights, shall we have a discussion about the government that rigged the 2000 US election? My guess is that you supported them, which makes you far more liberal than anyone in the UK could ever be. You see, you allowed a 3rd rate moronic, mentally deffective idiot to run your county for eight years. Here in the UK, he wouldn't have been allowed to be in charge of crossing children or sweeping roads.
Bush and his administration trashed your constitutional rights over and over again.

Bush did a lot of things wrong because he took the path of liberalism instead of embracing true conservatism.

It is really comical to see you Europeans rant on Bush. You are so ignorant of American politics that you don’t have clue. Bush was no Right Wing cowboy as you want to stereotype him. He was a Left Wing idiot as are most politicians nowadays including the leaders of your country.

Bush increased the size of the US government and enacted several worthless entitlement programs. Bush spent a whole more money than he took in. Bush refused to seal the border. Bush said he would sign the Assault Weapons Ban if it came across his desk. Bush took the side of DC in the Heller gun rights case. Bush invaded Iraq when the people that attacked us were mostly Saudi Arabians whose bosses lived in Afghanistan. Bush kissed the ass of the minorities like the Muslims in this country and even said he believed in man made global warming. Bush listened too many times to the demands of the foreign lobbyists instead of the advice of our Founding Fathers.

You Euros should have loved Bush because at the core he was really one of your own. Your leaders did the same thing as Bush including the invasion of Iraq so I don’t know what you dislike about the man.

[crazylilting]

You can't possibly believe that anyone would take a person seriously that has 35 assault riffles and spouts on about his god given right to bear these arms and also talks about how having these weapons keeps their government honest, do you? I mean, really do you? I think you are one of the most scary people i've ever seen on the internet. I heard the south was scary but i've never really met anyone from the south, i thought it was just rumours and exaggerations.

[flash]

You can't possibly believe that anyone would take a person seriously that has 35 assault riffles and spouts on about his god given right to bear these arms and also talks about how having these weapons keeps their government honest, do you? I mean, really do you? I think you are one of the most scary people i've ever seen on the internet. I heard the south was scary but i've never really met anyone from the south, i thought it was just rumours and exaggerations.

The Founding Fathers of the United States of America are the ones that came up with “this idea” of the right to keep and bear arms in order to have a check on the government. Sorry you don’t agree with them and don’t take them seriously but since you are British and the Founding Fathers beat the British’s asses you don’t get a vote. It doesn’t make any difference if you take either me of the Founding Fathers seriously or not because you lost that battle over 200 years ago. Sorry about that. Go back to youir socialism and don't worry about things like that. It is none of your concern.

As for my 35 weapons there are about 350 million of them in the hands in the hands of American civilians so my puny little number is insignificant. I know many people that have a larger number than me. My wife has none and both my sons combined and their wives and my granddaughter have only two total so that makes the average number for seven people to be only 5.3 so that is a very low number for most Americans. Of course my younger son is a Cavalry Scout in the US Army now and is deployed and he has access to a great number of firearms including a .50 caliber machine gun so maybe I shouldn’t include him in the number.

[crazylilting]

Cavalry Scout in the US Army now and is deployed and he has access to a great number of firearms including a .50 caliber machine gun so maybe I shouldn’t include him in the number.

As he would have access to firearms. I hope he returns home safely by the way. I think it is debatable whether or not the conditions are the same now as they were when the second amendment was drawn up. Not to mention that i doubt any such language would be used by politicians of our time if they were going to amend the constitution.

Just because a piece of paper says something doesn't mean it will always say the same thing, nor can you possibly believe that because a founding father said it was a god given right, that it actually is, no one is really that ummm (oh i wish you would push people to call you stupid but....) stupid. The right to bear ams isn't even in the declaration of independence so it couldn't possibly be! and it is the declaration of independence that states "We hold these truths to be self evident, that all men are created equal and endowed by their Creator with certain unalienable rights, that among these are life, liberty and the pursuit of happiness." Not the constitution or the bill of rights.

You are one strange man.

[DaveUK]

Bush did a lot of things wrong because he took the path of liberalism instead of embracing true conservatism.

It is really comical to see you Europeans rant on Bush. You are so ignorant of American politics that you don’t have clue. Bush was no Right Wing cowboy as you want to stereotype him. He was a Left Wing idiot as are most politicians nowadays including the leaders of your country.

Bush increased the size of the US government and enacted several worthless entitlement programs. Bush spent a whole more money than he took in. Bush refused to seal the border. Bush said he would sign the Assault Weapons Ban if it came across his desk. Bush took the side of DC in the Heller gun rights case. Bush invaded Iraq when the people that attacked us were mostly Saudi Arabians whose bosses lived in Afghanistan. Bush kissed the ass of the minorities like the Muslims in this country and even said he believed in man made global warming. Bush listened too many times to the demands of the foreign lobbyists instead of the advice of our Founding Fathers.

You Euros should have loved Bush because at the core he was really one of your own. Your leaders did the same thing as Bush including the invasion of Iraq so I don’t know what you dislike about the man.

Bush did a lot of things wrong because he is an idiot, his political ideology has nothing to with it.
It seems it's you that is ignorant of your countries politics, you don't even know what it is written in your constitution. Good job crazyliting is here to point it out to you.
Bush surrounded himself with extreme right wing neo conservative fascists such as Rumsfeld, Wolfowitz, Chene, Perle, Bolton, Powel, Rice etc.
His right wing ranting against Islamic countries was some of the most inflamatory rhetoric from a US president in decades.
Bush totally disregarded international law, law he expected other countries to observe and obey. He showed an irrational desire to act unilaterally and threatened anhialation to anyone that oposed. He accused any nation that was not "with" the US of being "with the terrorists", as if it were simply a cut and dried two way option. He opted for confrontation with regard to North Korea and Iran rather than negotiation and dialogue. He strengthened ties with fascist regimes like Israel and Saudi Arabia.

I don’t know what you dislike about the man.

Everything.

It would seem your numbers are a bit off when it comes to your stats on fire arms. The most liberal estimates put the number at about 250 million.
It also seems that your presumption to speak for your whole nation, and your attempt to slant the true picture of how many people own fire arms in the US is at best disingenuous. Less than 1/5th of your population actually owns a fire arm, so it would seem the vast majorty do not have an 18th century revolutionary "the south will rise again" mentality, but are decent rational citizens that have no need for symbols of fear and/or penis extentions.

Your assertion that ownership of fire arms is a symbol of your freedom is a delusion. Your right to own fire arms is held up only because of the billions of $ that arms manufacturers make from people like you. You are not in any way free to use your fire arms to challenge your politicians or law makers. You would be shot and rightly branded a terrorist. It could also be argued that you shouldn't own a fire arm at all. According to Forida state law, it is unlawful for "mental incompetents" to own or carry fire arms.

[flash]

As he would have access to firearms. I hope he returns home safely by the way. I think it is debatable whether or not the conditions are the same now as they were when the second amendment was drawn up. Not to mention that i doubt any such language would be used by politicians of our time if they were going to amend the constitution.

Just because a piece of paper says something doesn't mean it will always say the same thing, nor can you possibly believe that because a founding father said it was a god given right, that it actually is, no one is really that ummm (oh i wish you would push people to call you stupid but....) stupid. The right to bear ams isn't even in the declaration of independence so it couldn't possibly be! and it is the declaration of independence that states "We hold these truths to be self evident, that all men are created equal and endowed by their Creator with certain unalienable rights, that among these are life, liberty and the pursuit of happiness." Not the constitution or the bill of rights.

You are one strange man.

He is due home in two weeks and he has no more missions so he should be fine. We will be glad to get him home. Thank you for wishing him well.

Our Supreme Court in two recent cases (Heller v DC and McDonald v Chicago) strongly reaffirmed the Second Amendment (Right to Keep and Bear Arms) as a undeniable individual right on the same level as the right of free speech. It applies to every citizen of the US.

The only question now is how much is reasonable restriction by the state. The verdict in the two cases struck down a ban on handguns and the language in the opinion strongly suggested the bar for reasonable restriction is going to be set very high favoring the individual. There will be one more round of court cases challenging reasonable restriction and then it will be over. Based upon their previous opinions I suspect the court will allow restrictions against convicted felons and maybe a background check before purchasing firearms but nothing that will prevent an ordinary citizen from owning or carrying a firearm. There are a few places in the US where the mostly Liberal politicians have tried to restrict the right to keep and bear arms.

In my state there are no laws preventing me from owning the 35 weapons that I do own. I could get another 35 or 350 more if I want. I have a permit to carry a concealed weapon that was given to me on a “shall issue” basis. That means the state had to give it to me unless there was a darn good reason to deny, like I was a convicted felon. There is a law in my state that says the public has a right to gun ranges and the locals can’t stop a gun range from operating and can’t sue them for noise or anything like that. My state says I can use my weapons in self defense include shooting anybody that breaks into my home, no questions asked and no law suits.

I enjoy the hobby of shooting and collecting and building firearms but I also have other hobbies. I have no intentions of ever using a firearm for anything more than recreation but they are available for self defense if necessary (never have been) and if there is some kind of revolt in this country against the government then I would have the means to promote my convictions either to support or oppose the government, depending on the issue.

Because you have no firearms you cannot enjoy the sport of shooting and you have no options for self defense or to hold the government accountable for abuse or even to support your government from some kind of internal rebellion. All the decisions on power will be made by the people with firearms and you will only be a spectator.

[flash]

Bush did a lot of things wrong because he is an idiot, his political ideology has nothing to with it.
It seems it's you that is ignorant of your countries politics, you don't even know what it is written in your constitution. Good job crazyliting is here to point it out to you.
Bush surrounded himself with extreme right wing neo conservative fascists such as Rumsfeld, Wolfowitz, Chene, Perle, Bolton, Powel, Rice etc.
His right wing ranting against Islamic countries was some of the most inflamatory rhetoric from a US president in decades.
Bush totally disregarded international law, law he expected other countries to observe and obey. He showed an irrational desire to act unilaterally and threatened anhialation to anyone that oposed. He accused any nation that was not "with" the US of being "with the terrorists", as if it were simply a cut and dried two way option. He opted for confrontation with regard to North Korea and Iran rather than negotiation and dialogue. He strengthened ties with fascist regimes like Israel and Saudi Arabia.




Everything.

It would seem your numbers are a bit off when it comes to your stats on fire arms. The most liberal estimates put the number at about 250 million.
It also seems that your presumption to speak for your whole nation, and your attempt to slant the true picture of how many people own fire arms in the US is at best disingenuous. Less than 1/5th of your population actually owns a fire arm, so it would seem the vast majorty do not have an 18th century revolutionary "the south will rise again" mentality, but are decent rational citizens that have no need for symbols of fear and/or penis extentions.

Your assertion that ownership of fire arms is a symbol of your freedom is a delusion. Your right to own fire arms is held up only because of the billions of $ that arms manufacturers make from people like you. You are not in any way free to use your fire arms to challenge your politicians or law makers. You would be shot and rightly branded a terrorist. It could also be argued that you shouldn't own a fire arm at all. According to Forida state law, it is unlawful for "mental incompetents" to own or carry fire arms.

It seems that we dislike the man for different reasons. I will never vote for him again because he went Left Wing on me and you will never vote for the man because well, you can't.

It is a moot point now because the SOB will never run for another elected office.

I actually could give a rat's ass if some foreigner doesn’t like the person I chose to vote for in an election. It is simply not your business. If I were you I would be more concerned about getting your own stupid Left Wing politicians under control and less concerned about past US Presidents.

If you want to bash anyone for the war on terror be sure to include your government because they were a willing and very active participant. You do know that don’t you? Do you want me to post the 2003 speech by Ton Blair to the US Congress where he reaffirmed the position of Bush to do most of the things you are pissed at Bush for doing? In other words get your own house in order before you go and rant on your allies. Especially an ally that sacrifice the blood of hundreds of thousand of its best sons in the defense of your country.

Of course that is not the European way, is it? It is so much fun to bash America and not take responsibility for your own government’s actions isn’t it?

[Midas]

Actually it is pathetic that you Euros are afraid of firearms and that you have mostly given up your right to keep and bear arms in your false expectation of security. It does lend itself to a wimp mentality.

I'd suggest you familiarise yourself with the gun laws of the European countries before making such a wide sweeping generalisation. Several countries over here allow the carrying of concealed weapons, some even without permit, and several others allow the purchase of selected firearms by anyone as long as they're over 18, don't have a criminal record and are of sound mind; no reason required. Remarks like the above really do little to support your claims. It's simply that we have a different mentality to guns than you have in the US, and don't feel the need to show off how big ours are or how many we have!

[flash]

I'd suggest you familiarise yourself with the gun laws of the European countries before making such a wide sweeping generalisation. Several countries over here allow the carrying of concealed weapons, some even without permit, and several others allow the purchase of selected firearms by anyone as long as they're over 18, don't have a criminal record and are of sound mind; no reason required. Remarks like the above really do little to support your claims. It's simply that we have a different mentality to guns than you have in the US, and don't feel the need to show off how big ours are or how many we have!

I am familiar with the guns laws of several European countries and they are generally quite restrictive. You and the Germans are really restrictive. The Swiss and some of the Scandinavian counties are better.

The Europeans resigned themselves to mediocrity and socialism a long time ago and the restrictive gun laws is just another incision in the emasculation of a once vibrant culture. Maybe that is the inevitable result of the best of Europe migrating to the New World.

[DaveUK]

It seems that we dislike the man for different reasons. I will never vote for him again because he went Left Wing on me and you will never vote for the man because well, you can't.

It is a moot point now because the SOB will never run for another elected office.

I actually could give a rat's ass if some foreigner doesn’t like the person I chose to vote for in an election. It is simply not your business. If I were you I would be more concerned about getting your own stupid Left Wing politicians under control and less concerned about past US Presidents.

If you want to bash anyone for the war on terror be sure to include your government because they were a willing and very active participant. You do know that don’t you? Do you want me to post the 2003 speech by Ton Blair to the US Congress where he reaffirmed the position of Bush to do most of the things you are pissed at Bush for doing? In other words get your own house in order before you go and rant on your allies. Especially an ally that sacrifice the blood of hundreds of thousand of its best sons in the defense of your country.

Of course that is not the European way, is it? It is so much fun to bash America and not take responsibility for your own government’s actions isn’t it?

I couldn't give a rats ass who you vote for either, that is of course until the people you put in office violate international law, violate human rights, commit and perpetuate genocide and much more besides.
War on terror? Don't you mean war OF terror. And I agree that blair and his gang of crooks were as complicit as Bush and his fascist Christian gang. Hopefully there will be enough mud from the Iraq enquiry to stick to blair, straw and the rest of them. The head of MI6 has confirmed that a warning was given that terror plots and threats would be increased, and that is now the case.
You talk as if I voted for blair and his cronies. I didn't. And your reference to "left wing politicians" is a joke. There are no serious left wing politicians left in this country anymore. I would like to see far more left wing political leaders in this country, politicians that would distance the UK from the US, ostrasize Israel completely until such time as they withdraw fully from all occupied territories. Form closer ties with our European partners. Vito all American led draconian sanctions against states found inocent of violating the none proliferation treaty (like Iran). So you see, Britain is no where near "left wing" enough for me. We are governed by a bunch of public school boys with right of center tory ideals that remain America's poodles, just like Blair was. If you polled brits, you'd find that far more want less ties with the US than is reprisented in parliament.

Especially an ally that sacrifice the blood of hundreds of thousand of its best sons in the defense of your country.

Do you mean WW2? They were defending YOUR country you idiot. America wanted nothing to do with WW2 up until Hitler declared war on YOU. We defended our own shores and skies in 1940 and 1941 while Roosavelt sat it out, he had no choice because he'd made an election pledge that no US soldiers would be sent to die in EUROPE. We pledged our military to the south pacific to help YOU, while the US still refused to commit to Europe. The only reason US generals insisted on fighting on German, French and Dutch soil was to make sure they stopped the inevitable march of the Soviet Union accross western Europe, the US feared the Russians more than they did the Germans. Had Hitler not declared war on the US, and Russia had not threatened to march accross Europe, the US would have been quite happy with a Nazi dominated Europe as their allies and trading partners, especially the 3 million strong US Nazi movement and the US corperations that bankrolled the Third Riech. So don't try and pull that old history revising chesnut on me, it doesn't wash.

Because you have no firearms you cannot enjoy the sport of shooting and you have no options for self defense or to hold the government accountable for abuse or even to support your government from some kind of internal rebellion.

What a load of rubbish. We in the UK can join sporting gun clubs, buy certain types of fire arms such as shotguns for sport shooting. I used to shoot clays with my uncle, I found it boring. I used to be in the ATC and had marksman training, again I found it boring popping holes in bits of cardboard and wood shaped heads.
As has been pointed out to you numerous times, but as is characteristic of you, you ignore it totally and continue with your irrelavent rants. The days when you could hold your politicians to account with guns are long gone. Just try and excersise that "right" you claim you have and see what happens. That "right" exists on a 300 year old piece of paper that successive governments have trashed over and over. You'd be shot down and rightly branded a terrorist. You are on shakey ground if you use them in self defense too. You have to prove conclusively that you were under absolute certain mortal threat or danger, otherwise you are looking at manslaughter or murder. You claim it is a symbol of freedom, most people see your obsession with the ownership of fire arms, and your reasons for wanting them as a symbol of your fear.

All the decisions on power will be made by the people with firearms and you will only be a spectator.

This is a fantasy. America has lost it's credibility as the last military super power. America has shown an incomperable amount of political and military ineptitude in Iraq and Afghanistan. The initial missions are in tatters, total failiures.
The curtain is falling on the American century, and it's dreams of remaking the world in it's own image.
The decisions on power will in the future be made by those with the most natural resources and money, and the US is running out of both. Your nuclear threat is dependant on which US cities you want wiped off the map, because there are plenty of countries hostile to the US that would retaliate like with like.
I think you are living in a dream world if you think that your fire arms mean anything like what you say they mean. They are symbols of your insecurities, your fears, and your denial of history.

[flash]

Do you mean WW2? They were defending YOUR country you idiot.

Actually I am referring to WWI and WWII. The US lost 116,000 men fighting that stupid European War in 1917 when it had nothing to do with US security. Woodrow Wilson was a moron thinking it was right to use American troops to break the stalemate of slaughter in Europe when it had nothing to do with the US. A great example of interventionism. For every American troop that died one less French and British troop died and that is not a good exchange in my book. Without that influx of American troops I suspect you Euros would still be fighting WWI.

You have demonstrated a tremendous ignorance on history so I am going to educate you a little bit. It was the Japanese that attacked the US in 1941, not the Germans. Germany was never a threat to the US. The Germans lost the war at the battles of Stalingrad and Kursk, which was before the US even landed troops in Normandy. The only thing American participation in the war bought was things were easier for the Britis, French and Soviets. Not a good trade off in my book.

The Germans declared war on the US because we were sending war supplies to your starving little island and to the Soviets but they were never a threat to us. The Germans couldn’t even achieve air superiority over your little island no less be a threat to the US. The Soviets kicked the German’s ass. The war in Europe was never America’s war but that idiot Roosevelt decided to make it America’s war and that was simply the wrong thing to do. Our war was with the Japanese. We had no business sending American troops to fight yet another stupid ass European War.

Not only did we lose our best men in WWI but we participated in the crap that caused the rise of Nazism in Germany by the humiliation of the Germans at Versailles which led to the rise of Weimar Republic and WWII and the hundreds of thousand of more US deaths. Because we bought ourselves a seat at the table in post WWII Europe we were a party to the Cold War which led to another 90,000 American deaths over the decades. We also was pulled into providing welfare for the Europeans after the war and many historian think that welfare mentality led to the post WWII rise in Socialism throughout Europe.

We should have just let you stupid Euros slaughter yourselves because at the end of the day it is really none of our business.

I would also like to mention one other thing that I have observed about you Euros. You have no moral standards or convictions when it comes to American bashing. You love the US when we are saving your asses and you hate us when we are saving other people’s asses. Do you know how disgusting that is to most Americans?

[flash]

Here is an interesting quote:

“Among the many misdeeds of the British rule in India, history will look upon the Act depriving a whole nation of arms, as the blackest.”*

(*An Autobiography OR The story of my experiments with truth, by M.K. Gandhi, p.238)

When people like Gandhi slams British style restrictions on the right to keep and bear arms then you know you are on the wong side.

[flash]

This is a fantasy. America has lost it's credibility as the last military super power. America has shown an incomperable amount of political and military ineptitude in Iraq and Afghanistan.

It is hilarious to read your pathetic attempts to describe current events or history. Actually the war in both Iraq and Afghanistan has been fought by both the British and the US. You do remember the UK being involved in the invasion of Iraq, don't you or do you forget things like that? I have no idea why the UK and the US invaded Iraq but I do know that we have won the war over there to the chagrin of the American bashers.

You may not know this also but the UK is part of the Coalition in Afghanistan. Even your Boy Prince fought in the war and UK commanders are in charge of large military operations. You do know that the war is a NATO campaign, don’t you? You don’t know much of anything, do you?

The US is getting weaker but so is almost every other country in the world including your own. You don’t even have a second rate military anymore. It is more like forth or fifth rate. The decline in economy and military power is because America and most of the European countries spent more money than they took in order to impose socialists programs and now everyone is going bankrupts. Who would have thunk it? Your country is even worse than the US with much higher per captia debt.

The fact that you are doing America bashing instead of being concerned about the enormous problems in your own country is a great example of the Euro mentality of always blaming somebody else for their problems while never taking personal responsibility.

Get your own house in order first and grow up and then we will talk.